Toby,
Thank you so very much for that, and that quote was a beautiful way to conclude that letter, so again, thank you for telling me this. And don't think that what I read is going to permanently stain my opinions of you humans; as the Princess of Friendship, it is my duty and my nature to see and cultivate the good in us all. Besides, I'm certain that for every Caligula and Vlad the Impaler, there will be at least as many Mahatma Ghandis against them.
Plus, my letters were sent to you at random, and if you're the human they were sent to, I'd have to imagine that humanity in its current state can't be that bad.
I'm hoping to finish your textbooks before tomorrow morning, and Spike should be finishing up A Princess of Mars as I write. Don't be surprised if you get Spike's take on it before the end of the day. I don't know what your schedule is for the rest of the day (I know weekends are your days off, but once again, don't feel like you need to spend all that time on me and my our other friends), so in case you're busy with school work, I'll talk to you later.
Sincerely,
Twilight
Welp...
Well see
Well twilight. Has to much faith in humanity
Hope that book doesn't go into details. Because, eugh.
As much as people here in the comments want to argue that Twilight has too much faith in humanity and we are still just as bad, just in different ways, you’re wrong
We may seem divided and even more violent, but if you look closely you may well find things that warm your heart to an oven
There hasn’t been a major war since Afghanistan in the 1980s, The EU and NATO, however flawed people make them out to be, have united the western world, Global trade has skyrocketed economies and standard of living have gone up with them. Wartime plagues have taught us to better control diseases and now they are just an afterthought in everyone’s mind. We’ve come together for Space, for Prosperity, and for peace. 3rd world countries are catching up quick, and the more the west supports them the faster they grow. Poverty is at an all time low and going down. Communism and oppressive regimes are on the way out. The environment is slowly recovering as more and more people realize the importance of our fragile and beautiful earth.
So please, however much you bicker with the other political side or however much you think Terrorism will rule the world. Just look back at where we’ve been, where we’re going, and Remember, we are only human.
9231258 That's a good point, we've had many world wars, and if you look at them by death toll as a percentage of population rather than by absolute total (which I agree is the logical way to view them) then yeah, I'd call them all world wars, and the earlier one goes back the more brutal it gets.
But I think you're making assumptions about how peaceful Equestria is when we don't really know. We don't know Celestia had a thousand years of peace, the most we know she had was a few generations of harmony right after Nightmare Moon was banished. We don't know 90% of the population wasn't killed off in wars between the unicorns and pegasi before the Windigos were finally banished.
And in terms of "had an experience similar to Hitler and the Nazis" the Storm King invaded like 3 months ago. As Twilight is expressing shock over the past of slavery, she probably has some friends in Canterlot still trying to remove the scars from the slave collars attached to their necks as the Storm Kings army made them pull carts. I doubt those unicorns whose horns were being sold in Kludgetown are still alive, or that they died well.
We've never experienced what Tirek and Cozy Glow did to the world either, I can't imagine what it feels like to have your magic ripped out of you, there's simply no earth equivalent for that, but I suspect it would probably fall under the category of "atrocity" when it's done to everyone.
I do think you have a strong point about Equestria being really isolationist, and Twilight not being aware of any horrors or atrocities committed by or against non-ponies, that's a fair point.
9231662 That's a really good point. We have halved global poverty in the last 16 years alone.
Twilight, I know you've just been introduced to the name, but it's Gandhi, not Ghandi...
I swear, the chapters in this story are like Hershey's Kisses or M&Ms or something. They're great, but they're just so small that all I really get is a taste that leaves me wanting more.
Gotta love how a fandom of supposed "love and tolerance" gets so judgmental, cynical and, in some cases, outright hateful when it comes to humanity. Bronies really are... strange creatures...
9231840 To be fair, “love and tolerance” was an invention of a troll making fun of the brony community.
9231856
*shrugs* Didn't stop the bronies from "embracing" said words. It's a shame that they apparently can't live up to them.
9231877
Emphasis on the quotations.
(Ah, I love Twilight... her optimism is very lovely, and she herself is very cute. Nice to see.)
9227964
There you go, I fixed it for you :D
9232373
Talking about the bad side of human nature is not something exclusive to mlp-related fanfiction. It's a trope that existed long before it, and continues to exist outside of it.
9232858
True, but for some reason, it seems much more prevalent here than elsewhere.
Hmm, I do wonder why that is. It's just so deliciously ironic to me that a show about "love" and "friendship" attracts these kinds of people.
Oh, and since AlanSmithy's comment apparently got deleted before I could even read it, I suspect we may have had our first rage-induced tantrum. I could be wrong though :)
9233035 It wasn’t me. I usually don't delete comments unless they get especially belligerent.
9233047
Oh, that's a bit disappointing :L
9231717
9231662
Let me be clear, I believe that we are going VERY GOOD right now and the progress humanity has made in the past 100 years is amazing. I am a big believer in the idea that we are heading towards a post scarcity utopia. Its just not going to be a smooth ride to get there. Twilight's faith in humanity is well placed.
Still, back to my points.
If I was going to question the 1000 years of peace, I would be more inclinded to believe that the end (the 100-200 years before Nightmare Moon's return) are real and everything before that is Propaganda, rather then your suggested other way around. We know the Equestrian Propaganda machine is incredible, so its possible that some great calamity happened 500 or even 900 years ago thats been entirely erased.
However erasing something less then 200 years old is difficult and less then 100 or even 50 years old is next to impossible due to Ponies like Granny Smith.
So I am not sure why you suggest that the first generations after Nightmare Moon's initial banishment are the calm period. Maybe a lore source I don't know? Regardless, given ponies show almost no memory of conflict and are terrified of a bunny stamped, evidence suggests at least 2-3 generations of peace before her return and based off Twilight's reaction to any time war is mentioned, at least 200 years.
True. Again however I point out that Nightmare Moon's defeat happened in the equivalent of 1010AD. We know from Horseplay that Celestia got her Cutie Mark for her connection to the Sun at the very LATEST (and probably earlier) 1111 years ago. So 899AD. How far before that the Windigos happened is hard to say....
But between its sheer age, and the Discord era messing with written records, its possible, and in fact likely that the Ponies themselves don't know how bad the Windigos and the conflicts that summoned them were. For example, we have zero written accounts from Carthage. None. For 700 years they were the most powerful nation on the Mediterranean, and repeatedly challenged the dominance or the Persians, Greeks and Romans before the fall of Carthage.... but a combination of Roman hate and just the progress of time has erased all written records. We have SOME fragmented records of texts translated by the romans, but thats about it.
Discord just being Discord, then intentional erasure by Celestia with magic to protect her ponies with comfortable propaganda, would be far more thorough. I suspect if the words Unicornio delenda est were ever uttered by Commander Hurricane, Twilight, Moondancer and Sunburst working together for a Century wouldn't find a single trace of it.
I will actually address this as two points. First the Storm King and Slavery:
You are right, Twilight has had a brief look into slavery, she has seen it briefly. However both her experiences with Slavery show it is caused by evil. It is something tyrants do, and linked to the only 2 villains that we actually believe are dead, and beyond redemption. And finally in both cases its brief and more importantly....their is no evidence either Sombra or the Storm King worked anyone to death. The Storm King didn't really have the time, but Sombra's deeds are erased from history utterly, so even if he did, Twilight wouldn't find out....if she even went looking.
Contrast this with the hight of the Atlantic Slave trade...A period of where slaves were so common and so often shipped across the Atlantic that the Caribbean and South American Colonists considered slaves completely expendable and routinely worked them to death. This is not one evil tyrant enslaving a nation....this is 300 years of everyday people deciding, "My profits are worth more then your lives"
And it is everyday people. Spanish and Portuguese workers regularly would work on a farm till they had money, then become land owners themselves. Who then need more labour, meaning more slaves, and more slave drivers. And its this utter common acceptance of, "This is the natural order. I will drive these slaves to death and get paid to do so. I will then become a land owner and buy my own slaves. And then I will work those slaves to death for my own profits," thats so truly horrifying.
Nothing in the OFFICIAL history of Equestria is anything like that. That complete disregard of others lives is so completely unlike the harmonious picture that all ponies are fed as the official history and the official picture they have of the world.
Now onto Klugetown. Firstly Klugetown in part supports my theory. They had no idea it was there....and were utterly horrified by what they saw within, and even DESPITE THIS, were completely willing to accept the first friendly face that came along. This is either a sign of incredible innocence by the Mane 6 (which include the highly educated Twilight) or incredible denial.
This can be re-enforced by the fact that they had difficulty believing the Pirates would just betray them AND that Twilight, even after Nova had basically decided to leave Equestria to die, would get desperate enough to steal....
So I suspect Twilight and the rest of the Mane 6 would justify away what they witnessed. "Klugetown is not actually like that, it was just a bad day." "Its the Storm King's fault. Now that Klugetown is free, it will embrace the magic of friendship." "They aren't all bad, Caper came through in the end, so they must have a heart of gold." and my personal favorite, "Maybe those were fake horns?"
Twilight cannot justify away 300 years of working people to death. Twilight cannot just claim it was a bad day for humanity. There is no hand waving away what the book in front of her is telling her.
At one point, a large part of earth's population (and given this is a western textbook it will be Eurocentric, specifically western Europe Centric, and won't point out that this is less then 1/4 the worlds population doing this. It will read like most of humanity.) decided money was more important then lives for 300 years. That we committed genocide over gold, and gave diseased blankets to people so we could steal their land.
True, however again its 2 individuals that the story paints as evil, and utterly irredeemable, rather then actions of the common pony. However I will propose a hypothetical situation that could have happened....
Discord is a Draconequus...but if he is only one, why does he have a species name? Lets Hypothesis that once the Draconequus ruled over Equestria, and when Ponies were driven to Equestria by the Windigos, and in the years that followed, the united tribes wiped the Draconequus race out, all except Discord....and THAT is what drove him insane. Chaosville is not a different dimension but what remains of the site of the Draconequus last stand before their destruction. Discord is to other Draconequus what Alicorns are to other ponies and thus escapes his people's death.
Even if this completely hypothetical event happened, Ponykind would have no memory. Lets for a moment discard the effects of Discord and Celestia's Propaganda....this hypothetical Equestrian Exchange happened before what would be our equivalent of 899AD.
When I got that year the first time I sat and thought, "Okay, what happened in that era. Can I pick something that happened that decade?"
Fall of Western Rome...nope, that happened 400 years early.
Okay...breakup of the Francia Empire...thats closer, in 840.
Crowning of the First Holy roman Emperor? Nope. Charlemagne was the year 800 and Otto I throws us to 962 (depending on which defintion of first)
Okay...lets leave Europe.
Rise of the Shogunate... okay thats way off, 1185
Fall of Sing China...its Song China, not sing Drachos and it starting in 960.
After a bit more digging rather then by random guessing major events in history, its very close to the fall of Tang China and thus the chaos of 5 Dynasties and 10 Kingdoms China. However I think I prove my point.
1111 years is a VERY long time, and even with all our modern technology and modern study of history, individuals know very little about the atrocities committed that long ago. In the lead up to the fall of Tang China is something called the Guangzhou massacre which was a purge of foreigners from Guangzhou, the end of the Silk road. Up to 200,000 people died, which would have been a SUBSTANTIAL percentage of its population at the time. (The modern city hosts 25 million people, and which when you think about it means that even now 200,000 would be a significant chunk of the population. 1% of a cities population doesn't just get killed.)
But I suspect neither of us had heard of this event before now.
Now add Discord on top....and then Celestia's willingness to erase the darkness in Equestria's past.
This Equestrian Exchange I described....could have happened. With everything else Celestia has erased about the past, we have plenty of evidence to suggest that she would do that....and the idea that three tribes just happen to stumbled across a perfect new home with no one in it....well that sounds like the descriptions that the Western Powers had for the New World.
((Side note: A population that is exceptionally rare, is often forgotten about and doesn't seem to be mentioned in any historic texts despite ties to royalty....Perhaps I should have written this this as the Three Tribes Conquering Equestrian from the Bat Ponies rather then Draconiquus.))
Do I think the Ponies completely destroyed the original inhabitants of Equestria....no. If ONLY because an act that Disharmonious would certainly have drawn the Windigos down on them to a level that the Fires of Friendship would have been like a candle against a Blizzard.
But the point is, things that far back are forgotten. Its Ancient History in the literal sense. The Atlantic Slave trade isn't. World War 1 and World War 2 aren't. Even if Celestia and Discord weren't a thing, using things that far back and saying, "Twilight should be used to the evils of the world." As if she hasn't lived a world that APPEARS to have been at peace, and every historic document she has read enforces this view, from the moment of her parent's birth....maybe her grandparent's birth, right up till 4 years ago.
And with the exception of the Storm King and the Changeling are the actions of individuals.
I think I need to address something directly, because if we disagree on this point, the rest of the discussion is meaningless.
Between erasing a literal god (Nightmare Moon), making everyone forget about the Castle of Two Sisters and the logical first capital of Equestria that surrounds it to such a degree that history records the Apples as the first settlers in the area, erasing Sombra and the Crystal Empire from existence and making ponykind entirely forget Discord....a feat that would require erasing or explaining away every scar his actions had left on Equestria....to hiding secret Government Organizations that hunt monsters so well that Twilight never even considers contacting Agent Sweetie Drops about the Bug Bear....even though she is a Princess and thus should have access to those files....
Celestia has a Propaganda machine the Kim family of North Korea would Envy. History in Equestria is what Celestia says it is, and and the things Celestia has done to Old Father Time and his record of history could only be described in a triple X rated story. And Twilight, despite the fact she is a Princess now....was raised in that environment.
While the mask is lifting....as we see in both "Horse Play" and "A Royal Problem" its a slow process. Thus not only does Twilight not know the truth....a part of her doesn't want to know what darkness Celestia has covered up....
After no monarch is perfect....somewhere in the Secret History of Equestria is Celestia's worst act, her biggest mistake. And Twilight doesn't want to know.
9233073
At the very beginning of the show, when they introduce the two sisters, that's revealed to be Twilight reading from "Predictions and Prophecies." It's an ancient text, and it says that after Nightmare Moon was banished, they had "generations of harmony." Based on that I am assuming they had a century or so of harmony, but that's a really old book, so anything could have happened after it was published.
Props for the solid timeline building! And it's hard to say with the founders. Regarding Clover the Clever, it was stated that he was Star Swirl's apprentice, and Celestia learned from him as well.
If you are willing to care about statements from books, in the Journal of the Two Sisters they have all 6 founders and make it sound like the Founding happened only a few years before Celestia and Luna showed up as teenagers.
That said, there are tons of problems with the various times Starswirl has appeared, to where I've heard people assume that either he was jumping around in time or there were a bunch of different ponies calling themselves Starswirl. So it's tough to nail that down.
That's a solid point. Though I'm more in the school of thought that Discord wasn't so much a lengthy tyrant ruling for years as much as a mobile natural disaster that wandered around for a few months disrupting towns and villages until the sisters beat him. They were already princesses when they defeated him.
That's a fair point. To Twilight, the Storm King's victims were more like kidnapped hostages than a permanent way of life. And she has no real knowledge of Sombra (nobody does, both he and Celestia worked to hide the truth about him).
That's another good point. Equestria, for all its giant size, in many ways comes off as a gigantic medieval Switzerland, above the nasty concerns of its neighbors. In the comics (again only if you care about the canoncity of secondary sources) Celestia responds to the Storm King by restarting the world's equivalent of the UN after it had been inactive for hundreds of years, which shows just how isolated many nations were.
That is a very insightful point indeed! I find myself agreeing with it, and really annoyed that we haven't seen more of Abyssinians. Why no cat students?
I'm pretty sure he's the Genius Loci of the Chaos Dimension. That said, you paint a vivid and detailed picture of how little modern Equestrians would really know about their history.
And yeah, if you asked me what had happened around 889 AD, without internet I would probably just guess the invention of the Horse Collar.
I'd wager the Diamond Dogs were actually the most common original inhabitants, but Thestrals are also a strong candidate.
I suspect you are right. She has that library full of ancient books in the Castle of the Two Sisters that sit completely untouched. She's also personally the head of the main school of higher learning we hear about, which is usually the place where history is examined critically.
Well done sir, this is a thoroughly detailed and enjoyable piece of analysis!
9233035
It seems more prevalent here because, as you said it "the show is about 'love' and 'friendship'". Like all things, the dark side of human nature is more visible when in proximity to something with a sharp contrast to it. After all, a very major portion of literature has human villains; it just doesn't stand out quite as much.
9233406
Hmm, I might be misunderstanding something but I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. Personally, I just think it's so prevalent here because people on this site like to feel "clever", "mature" and/or "above others" by commenting in a "deep" manner on the human condition. As for why it often seems to tilt towards cynicism and outright misanthropy, well... no need to be any more rude than I have to ;)
All in all, I blame the people on this site and not the contrast(s) that the show may or may not provide.
9233476
I'm saying it's even more common outside of here, but it just stands out much less. Let me try to restate it more clearly: if you were to pick 10 books at random, at least one of them, and likely more, would be a story where the antagonist is a human being. Three of the most common of the seven types of conflict in literature (Man vs Man, Man vs Self, and Man vs Society) are dominated by conflict between the light and dark sides of human nature.
The reason why the dark side of human nature stands out so much in mlp-related fanfiction is that, if taken at face value, the ponies of mlp are vastly "nicer" than humanity. For example, take the generic murder mystery. Standard fare for original literature. However, shift the plot into mlp, and suddenly it changes, because even the idea of a murderer is completely foreign to the average citizen. Of course, an author could build an alternate Equestria and root the reader in this gritter AU...but then they would have spent not-insignificant time and effort on doing something that will have the end result of making a more generic story.
9233051
I just decided I didn't want to debate rape culture and racism with people who probably don't think those exist anymore.
9233368
I had completely forgotten about that. And I think that book is likely accurate, as it seems like a text written by Celestia specifically for whoever was going to save her sister. Had the words instead mentioned that after the banishment of Nightmare Moon the day sister struggled, it may have motivated Twilight more to save rather then rebanished Nightmare Moon.
That said, the book didn't mention Celestia's sorrow at her actions however and Twilight for some reason is dense enough not to click that Celestia must already know this due to being the elder sister, and the book clearly continues beyond that point. So while I doubt it as I see no reason for it for once, it maybe more propaganda.
I think you are right though.
As an interesting aside, Star Swirl is an interesting exception. While we see at least one part of the secret history of Equestria in the fourth Equestria girls movie, and thus learn that the deeds of heroes such as Clover the Clever are hidden away as well....Star Swirl's actions are not. The Alicorn Amulet, which some have suggested Star Swirl crafted is another interesting exception with Twilight having a book saying exactly what it is and what it does.
A damn good question, one I wish I had an answer to. We also have no Minotaur nor Diamond Dog students, perhaps reflecting a general dislike by the shows artists of the regular appearance of upright characters.
I had to click the link as I had never seen that term before, but I would entirely agree with that.
9233575
Nah, I'm still gonna disagree with you, bub ;) but by all means, believe what you want. I still think it has to do with the mentality of people around here. It just ain't pretty.
9233841
Ahhh, so you're one of those kinds of people ;) things are starting to make sense now.
Tell me, what happened? Did Tumblr temporarily close down so you had to come here to spew your distaste of humanity instead? Good choice, by the way, I wouldn't want to argue over something as ludicrous as "rape culture" either ;)
9234623
I...sure, I can't stop you from deciding to ignore evidence and insisting on the interpretation that doesn't match observations...
9234886
"ignore evidence" LOL
that's the funniest thing I've heard all day ;D Good on you for believing in yourself, bub :)
Oh, by the way:
Boom, fixed your comment :D
9235099
You're a wonderful example of irony.
9235320
said the misanthropic brony
But thank you, fam, it's not often people are dumb enough to write insults directed at themselves. It does make my job easier :D
Yikes this got real nasty and real personal real quick.
People feeling they need to feel bad or prepare an alien to read human history rub me the wrong way. We have nothing to apologize for or feel shameful about. Things happened and we are how we are. Primates have a much higher rate of naturally occurring violent individuals than most other species and are tribal(us vs them) in nature, we may be more intelligent but that hasn't changed.
I had a feeling the comment section would take a turn from the sweet to the sour when I read that political chapter. They tend to do that a lot.
Ohh god these comments. I just flashed through them. Yeah Ill ignore that political cesspool thank you.
All I need to know is yes we did horrible but we're moving in the right direction and with hope in my heart I know we'll get to the good outcome. Nothing more nothing less.
Well, some comments of this chapter are quite ironic considering the diurnal occurrence of human inanity. What we know of Equestria is quite limited in the scope of our own nature so of course someone outside looking in would have some entailment of naivety since their understanding wouldn't quite match our own mindset of what it really means to be human.
The worst I have to say is the lack of individual self, the foundation of society today: group mentality. Trust is the evident killer of human sanity. The individual is not stupid, but the collective whole is quite so. In a way, we all partake of the kool-aid. This is just a jest, but the fastest fix to humanity is nuke all major world powers capitals then set out a message to the world that if everyone doesn't work together you'll do it again. Human fear would ensure that every single world power would have to follow through because otherwise mass rioting would happen. A country after all can't function without agreement from its citizens. Let it be said I am joking and don't endorse the murdering of several million human life... just a bit amused that such an action has merit heh.
Funny enough, Fermi's paradox, at least an interpenetration is of self-annihilation. Basically, advance civilization kill themselves off before reaching the space age which is why we haven't found life as of yet.
10334603 Sir, this is a Taco Bell.
10334631
You responded in the best way. I tip my hat to you.