You are enjoying yourself aren't you? I'll admit thinking of the actual story that caused this causes me to feel an anger I thought impossible, but you did it. morbid, horridly morbid, curiosity compels me to read the Fallout Equestria series but one play through of the game and I am shown just how bad it could be. For now... I'll just stick to the "happy" ending this is leading up to. Good job yet again. Watch your words though. Can't wait for the next one.
5679240 Notice the sarcasm. From my point of view Spike want's to die. I feel this is more a recording of his legend and fulfillment of his wish. Personally, and to my great disgust, I want to know how twilight and every one else is doing now. I mean discord seemed pretty freaked up. I don't want to imagine fluttershy, Celestia, god forbid Twilight snapping out of it and realizing everything they had done, but the engineer in me the person that questions how this will affect that what repercussions come from this event, what damage comes from this line of actions... Please tell me you give closure on this.
Less sexual slavery, more tactical talk, and FINALLY Spike gets caribou blood on his clawed paws. I can stomach this a little easier in hopes that things are looking and moving up.
Nice job on the fight-followed-by-nightmarish-monster-feast. Twisted my damn guts, but it was bittersweet and most of all, plausible.
EXTINCTION TO THE WORTHLESS CARIBOU, AND OBLIVION TO THEIR SICK WAYS OF EXISTENCE!
Oh fuck. OH FUCK. This is giving me chills. Up until this point, I wasn't really sure if I wanted to keep reading, but now I want to finish so bad. I will admit I wasn't the biggest fan, but I'm reveling in the blood. Please spill more worthless caribou blood. This is now one of my favorite stories.
5679408 5679419 Yeah. Though Fallout Equestria can get caught up in it's grimdarkness, depending on the story, it has absolutely NOTHING on Fall of Equestria.
5680109 Funny thing is I actually found FOE because one time I was searching a Fallout Equestria story,,I ended writing Fallouf Equestria, google offered me a Did you mean ? message and I went "What is this shit?"
That's how I was introduced to FOE, my initial reaction? Rage, that was my initial reaction. It got even worse when I found out there's a female-dominant version called Utopia Planitia (I think), thankfully that one is no where near as famous as FOE.
5680451 Glad you like it so much then! And to be honest? When I started this fic I was ready to receive a LOT of hate, but it seems many like it so I'm happy they do!
I like this, he set up the perfect trap. Used his own people as bait, got them and some of his own killed and then let the Everfree do the rest. And he got to laugh the entire time because he and his drank a potion to keep themselves safe. But what cost, what noble sacrifice of the 600? And once again, I still don't understand how Spike can be on trial. Hell, the testimonys at the top of the chapter should mean whats left of Equestria would rise up if this trial judged him guilty.
5682219 Yeah, I also can't understand how Spike can be on trial for something as mundane as genocide! [/Irony] Not to mention that he also commits a bunch of other crimes in this story, not all of them against the caribou.
5682298 True, and all of them needed to be done. And if you look they were all done and planned out with others or in consultation with others. And finally he is at war. He has seen his friends, family, people he knows be killed, raped, blanked, and tortured. And if you notice, he gave the condemned, those 600 that fought a suicidal battle a promise. And from what I get from this story. He kept his word to them. And the Caribou deserve to die, and Spike like all of the mare's and stallions in Equestria deserved to kill them for what the Caribou did to them.
And the Caribou deserve to die, and Spike like all of the mare's and stallions in Equestria deserved to kill them for what the Caribou did to them.
I simply reject the premises of this claim. All of them, in fact. It is one thing to kill in war. It is another thing to start making decisions about who is worthy to live and who isn't, and then executing people without due process just because of their race. Whoever does something like this in real life is a tyrant and a madman. It also doesn't matter what the others have done - after all, if it mattered to him, he would grant each one of them them due process for their crimes instead of just eradicating the entire race.
Even despite all your apparent opposition, you simply buy FoE's central premises - among others that all caribou are irredeemably evil. Something I find hilariously implausible. You're also still ignoring the cow issue.
Well, at least it gives me an incentive to continue my own Post-Fall project - where a small but growing number of caribou rebels work together with ponies to end Dainn's regime.
5682454 Hey, I'm going by Spikes thoughts on this. He wants revenge, and he want's blood. And when your in the middle of blood and pain you either go one of two ways. You cringe in horror at what your doing and pull back. Or you embrace that dark side and take it where it leads. Spike is embracing it. And it leads to genocide. And if you note from the opening quotes at the beginning of the chapters. The pony's are quite happy he went there. Its everybody else, those who surrendered, those who helped the Caribou, even those who stood by and did nothing that are upset by the genocide of the Caribou. But did they move to stop the genocide when it happened? Did they give the Caribou a place to run? No, they watched it happen and then deem themselves judges.
5682509 It is indeed at least debatable whether those people are worthy of the right to pass judgment. I actually agree with you on that point. But even then, what Spike did is still a crime even if his judges are unworthy.
I fail to see what the ponies being happy has to do with the moral quality of Spike's actions. After all, we're talking about genocide here, not about rightful judgment (once again, that would have required due process).
I'm not saying that succumbing to madness and thirst for revenge isn't to some degree understandable in such a situation. But understandable is simply not the same thing as justifiable. I also believe your opposition is false. There are other options than either cowering in fear or succumbing to madness, even in the middle of blood and pain. I think we need more Post-Fall fics that explore those options.
5682526 Its your opinion, but its also not what the story is about. The story is about Spike giving into the darkness and committing genocide. And yet I notice one thing. He's Spike, a single Dragon. He could probably take on a dozen Caribou and win. An army of them? Nope. He didn't commit genocide, he may have led the army. But it was still an army, a nation that rose up that committed genocide. One man or in this case, a dragon cannot do it alone. They could all have stopped at any point and said no. They didn't.
And now, I think this story is the other nations making Spike the scapegoat. For the act itself, the fact that others stood by and did nothing, and that when Equestria was invaded they abandoned there allies. I have more respect for Spike because he did exactly what he promised others he would do. And he did it even if it damned him.
5682586 How to take responsibility for a collective crime is indeed a difficult question. It isn't even really solved for the real world. But it should be clear that the leaders should at least shoulder a fair share of the responsibility. I'm not saying that you should outright kill them - I'm actually opposed to the death penalty in general, and I really don't like fics where Spike is killed (I made that mistake myself once, but I scrapped the entire thing and will never do it again). But this one makes it a bit hard for me to root for him. In a way, this Post-Fall fic is almost more bleak than FoE itself. There is simply no side, no character here that I could really root for.
5682608 Also very true. The fact of the matter is that Spike led the army, but the army did the killing. Spike may have committed crimes but so did every troop under his command. And so did there allies, and so did those who stood and watched and those who joined with the Caribou. There are mentions of the Caribou killing prisoners, there slave, and people who just disagreed with them. They committed these acts first. Before Spike led an army to exterminate them. And he did so because its easier to kill the Caribou off then worry about them a few generations down the road. The list of crimes the Caribou committed deserve that sentence.
And the more I read this, he isn't on trial for Genocide. He's on trial to see if he will become the new leader of Equestria. Too many hints that he is Celestia's son and all that. The pony's of Equestria may not even trust the Princess's anymore. But the Alexander of Macedon that gave them there revenge? Probably he is on trial so the other leaders can hope to stop him from becoming a ruler.
The list of crimes the Caribou committed deserve that sentence.
As I said, we simply don't know how to ascribe collective responsibility in a sensible way. A sentence like this could never be passed because there wasn't due process - because due process can ever only deal with single individuals, never with collectives. How do you ascribe responsibility here? If the collective responsibility of the caribou deserves them this sentence, who passes it, by what standards, and why does he not also sit judgment over the collective responsibility of the other side? Where does it end? Once we go there, once we pass judgment over collectives this way, our actions against single individuals of that collective become entirely arbitrary. It's essentially "anything goes" then, and there is no point at which we could stop ever again.
In a way, it might even be better to kill off a single individual who is willing shoulder the entire responsibility and then to start anew and keep the memory alive than to continue this vicious cycle forever. This is actually one of the themes in my own Post-Fall project: Single individuals who voluntarily decide to shoulder the responsibility for the crimes of many. In a way, it's the exact reversal of your reasoning here.
And the more I read this, he isn't on trial for Genocide. He's on trial to see if he will become the new leader of Equestria. Too many hints that he is Celestia's son and all that. The pony's of Equestria may not even trust the Princess's anymore. But the Alexander of Macedon that gave them there revenge? Probably he is on trial so the other leaders can hope to stop him from becoming a ruler.
That's an interesting interpretation, and certainly not implausible.
5682661 Sorry, there entire culture is based about male dominance. They collectively have committed the crime of pushing it on others. The Caribou used magic, rape, rape training, humiliation, blanked mares (literally murder without it being murder), torture, and many other crimes. And they don't consider it wrong. The caribou consider this to be perfectly normal. Not one, one Caribou stood up and said NO. If any species deserved extinction they do. And don't forget, the Caribou were the aggressors. They got exactly what was coming to them, and Spike gave it to them, collectively.
As I said, I find that highly implausible. Just because you saw no one doesn't mean there was no one.
There were also only very few Germans who actively opposed Hitler (i.a. because it meant risking one's life). As a German, I will be forever thankful that the Allies didn't think the same way you do after the war.
5682691 You find it implausible. I'm sorry. Did I mention the part or did you miss it where they considered everything they were doing to be perfectly normal? None of them would have stood up to say no. Not one. They were raised from birth to think that way. They believed in male dominance to the core. Some may have been sympathetic, but the only difference it might make is to feed there mares a bit better and give them slightly larger cages and that would be about it. They were essentially a species gone mad with a mindset so far into left field to not even be seen by the other species!
I say lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Well, I think this is a serious matter, with consequences for the way we deal with violent conflicts in real life.
It is completely understandable to be pissed about FoE and about how the caribou we see act in FoE's fics. But instead of cultivating hatred against the caribou as a species, we should begin to criticize FoE's underlying premises and assumptions - and then write fics that show different perspectives. That's why the main character of my own Post-Fall project is a caribou - one who opposes the system and cooperates with mares on equal terms. He still has some very serious character flaws, and he has done horrible things in the past, so he clearly isn't a shining hero. But he wants to make amends for what he's done.
5682732 I strongly suspect that any caribou who dared say no would have ended up converted into a female slave. You think they invented that shtick just for ponies?
If there were any caribou males who were opposed to this (and keep in mind caribou females have about the intelligence of moderately smart dogs, so none of them could possibly stand up -- I strongly suspect this was done to them via magic at some point), they would have had to keep their silence and keep hidden. Which means, unfortunately, that if there were any secret sympathizers, Spike probably slaughtered them too. But they couldn't have helped very much, because any noticeable amount of treating females well would have resulted in the misogynistic, totalitarian regime turning on them and enslaving them.
This is how misogyny in real life has lasted for thousands of years. Men are raised to believe women are inferior, and any guy who doesn't believe it is mocked and denigrated by other men, so maintaining social power and status is dependent on at least making other men think you don't defer to women. And this is real life, where no society has ever been as evil or misogynistic as the caribou, and where the punishment for being "hen-pecked" or "pussy-whipped" is just other men making fun of you. If they would turn you into a woman and make you a rape slave for treating women well, I think very, very few men would risk it. It's human nature... and likely, pony and caribou nature as well. Think of "You got beat by a girl," "You take orders from a woman?", "I can see who wears the pants in your family"... etc.
5683009 Sorry no. Conversations like this turn into arguments far too easily. He has his viewpoint and I have mine. And yes Genocide is a horrible thing. But like a great man said. Some men deserve killing. The Caribou are a species that deserves to die. I don't see a single redeeming characteristic that should warrant leaving a single male of there species to live. The females maybe and the very young, but in the end there a dead race without the males and unless the pony's take pity.
5683006 Well, my caribou has a little bit of... divine help, as it were. I'm really toning it down though. He also owns the castle of the two sisters in the Everfree forest now (because it was still in ruin and no one else wanted it), so he is a bit secluded from the rest of caribou society and can try things he couldn't under Dainn's regime. In the beginning, he's still a misogynist to some degree, but as I said, he cooperates with mares on equal terms.
As for the cows, I agree with you that they wouldn't be able to stand up to their males. I think they're a little bit smarter than you depict them - but not much, probably. So yeah, they're not exactly the brightest lights in the room. If you want to discuss this in detail, I think it's better to use PMs. They're also physically extremely weak, and they're driven to submission and dependence, and I think this is not just a result of their upbringing. It has to do with how their minds and sensoria work. So yeah, they're not much of a hope, really.
And yes Genocide is a horrible thing. But like a great man said. Some men deserve killing.
I will not discuss the legitimacy of the death penalty here because without due process, a discussion about this topic is nothing but a joke anyway. No, genocide is never "deserved", for the simple reason that collectives simply cannot "deserve" anything. Only individuals can "deserve" something in this sense of the term.
I don't see a single redeeming characteristic that should warrant leaving a single male of there species to live.
"I don't see..." again. You don't see every single individual male of their species. Seriously, have you considered the possibility that there might be something wrong with your glasses? What you do here is called inductive reasoning, and the way you do it, it's a fallacy. This is not a matter of opinion, your way of reasoning here is objectively false. See also: Problem of induction. It only seems to work here because the caribou are a fictional species, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fallacy. Whenever someone applies a flawed reasoning like this to real world problems, things usually turn from simply false to horribly wrong in ten seconds flat. I reject any of the judgments you pass, on the grounds that someone who employs flawed logic to come to his judgments is incapable of judging at all. He judges not by reason but by emotion, in other words arbitrarily.
This is one reason why I believe that whenever it comes to passing judgment, it is essential to have due process. One MUST NEVER judge one individual for the crimes another one has committed. (Maybe with the exception of a case where one individual voluntarily shoulders the responsibility for another one's deeds.)
THIS IS BLOODY BRILLIANT, It honestly deserves many, many more likes than it has. It's got violence, gore, caribou death in the extreme(can't be without that ), awesome battles, more gory caribou death ()
Also, can't forget spikes amazingly inspirational speech to the rebels, it was so beautiful*wipes away manly tears*
5684109 At the moment, I re-watch Babylon 5, an old Sci-Fi series from the early nineties. It's a rather dark setting compared to similar shows with a more positive outlook like Star Trek, and also more emotionally intense. Today I re-watched the episode The Long Twilight Struggle. During the scene where the Centauri bombard the Narn homeworld with mass drivers, for only a single moment I thought: Damn Centauri, kill them all! I instantly became scared of myself. In fact, I slapped myself in the face as soon as I realized what I had just thought.
We are all human beings, and it can be damn tempting sometimes. But if we ever catch our minds going even a single step in that direction, we must bring ourselves to turn around immediately. Even if it's just fiction.
5684109 OK, then I challenge you to find a single Caribou in any one of these storys, just one that doesn't deserve to die. Show me one that showed pity, show one that didn't follow order's. Show one that isn't like the rest. And no, your unfinished story doesn't count. For one you wrote it. This is there culture, there raised this way to treat females as less than dirt. They were the aggressors. They have committed crimes ten time's worse than Spike has. Brought up Babylon 5? OK, Death by Personality. Caribou did it to. They called it blanking. Only difference they enslaved and tortured what came out. You are somewhat correct. Punishing the collective is wrong, but here is the issue with that. Every single male caribou who invaded, supports the invasion, or even is at there homeland and sending supplies, equipment, and any kind of support is guilty. By definition there all guilty of crimes. And in case you haven't noticed the Pony's are at war. Do you show mercy to a rabid animal? No, you kill it. And that's what Spike did, he built an army and he put down the rabid animal. Because if he didn't in a few generations they might try again.
Now saying all that. The females might be spared and those too young but that's no way to keep a breeding population and I think its even mentioned that there not quite extinct yet so some did survive.
OK, then I challenge you to find a single Caribou in any one of these storys, just one that doesn't deserve to die. Show me one that showed pity, show one that didn't follow order's.
First of all, your entire question once again rests on the same fallacy of total induction. You essentially ask me to be as stupid as FoE's premises. I refuse. I will not buy the highly implausible just because it's handed to me.
I'm certainly not saying that hatred for the caribou isn't understandable. I'm just saying that hatred can't be a foundation of judgment, ever. It's not just that it would turn us into monsters. It would also make us stupid, and that's not exactly a good thing for a species that uses intelligence as its primary survival strategy.
Also, for a moment I did consider giving you an example of a stag from canon who I believe doesn't deserve death (even though he's still a criminal and a bastard). But then I remembered all my troubles with the entire concept of a "deserved death". I think it's a concept that betrays an unsound mind, or at the very best a disavowed feeling of cognitive helplessness. So yeah, figure it out yourself if you want to, I won't discuss this here, but if you want to make a guess about who I had in mind, feel free to send me a PM.
OK, Death by Personality. Caribou did it to. They called it blanking.
Yes, I know, and that's absolutely horrible. What was your point again?
Every single male caribou who invaded, supports the invasion, or even is at there homeland and sending supplies, equipment, and any kind of support is guilty. By definition there all guilty of crimes.
No one is guilty unless found guilty in a fair trial. Also, your definition is wrong. Declaring an entire population war criminals just for providing supplies has no foundation in any international law, and for good reason. So, not only do you employ flawed logic, you also judge people guilty without even knowing the laws that apply to the situation. So what is the foundation of your judgment? It's not logic, it's not law, so what is it?
And in case you haven't noticed the Pony's are at war.
There are laws even in war, you know? War does not justify genocide. Because that's what is called a war crime.
Do you show mercy to a rabid animal? No, you kill it.
If you knew anything about rabies, you would know that killing a rabid animal in the later stages of the sickness is the appropriate form of showing mercy. But this comparison doesn't apply here. No, I won't go into detail.
Now saying all that. The females might be spared and those too young but that's no way to keep a breeding population and I think its even mentioned that there not quite extinct yet so some did survive.
A cow is not able to survive for even a month without the guidance and protection of her master. But then again, maybe Spike and the others now keep the cows for themselves - at least this way they could be kept alive. That would make for an interesting twist, don't you think?
5684516 Your viewpoint is that somewhere there is good caribou yet we haven't seen one yet. Your viewpoint is that there needs to be a reason to save the caribou. But in the end, in this story, no matter what we argue or debate. There all dead. Fallacy of total induction? That's there culture, there raised that way. From birth! That's pretty much total induction. I brought up blanking because that is essentially murder and then they torture the whole new personality! Were talking real low. And they created this before they ever invaded! We are literally talking about something they consider a method of control. And an invading army that commits the crimes the caribou have is guilty of crimes. War Crimes of the highest caliber. And as for the definition.
A war crime is a serious violation of the laws and customs of war (also known as international humanitarian law) giving rise to individual criminal responsibility. Examples of war crimes include: murdering, mistreating, or deporting civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps murdering or mistreating prisoners of war or civilian internees forcing protected persons to serve in the forces of a hostile power killing hostages killing or punishing spies or other persons convicted of war crimes without a fair trial wantonly destroying cities, towns, villages, or other objects not warranted by military necessity
The Caribou do these and more. There most basic soldier in the field commits these crimes. Sure you can judge them individually. And a court can judge them en masse as well. A general in the field can also order No Quarter. And that's what Spike did. He gave no quarter. He judged them an army and there society as out of control, as a rabid animal. One not deserving of quarter or mercy. And killed them all, his army killed them all. There allies killed them all. Same thing as your arguing. Should they put each and every soldier of the Caribou on trial? Probably. Did the Pony's take prisoners? Nope, not a one. Should the pony's that fought and died and were enslaved be put on trial because they as a society eradicated the Caribou? Same question because by definition they did the exact same thing the Caribou tried to do to the Pony's.
Your viewpoint is that somewhere there is good caribou yet we haven't seen one yet.
Well, it certainly isn't the point I was making with my last post. Read it again.
Fallacy of total induction? That's there culture, there raised that way. From birth! That's pretty much total induction.
Nice play on words. Unfortunately, you're wrong. Upbringing does not determine an intelligent beings in their entirety. It shapes your personality to a certain degree, but it doesn't turn you into a zombie who just executes a program. Otherwise, it wouldn't even be possible to attribute individual responsibility in the first place.
And an invading army that commits the crimes the caribou have is guilty of crimes. War Crimes of the highest caliber. And as for the definition.
You don't have to quote the definition of war crimes to me because I know it. We all know that the caribou commit war crimes during and after the invasion. We're not discussing that. You were arguing that providing supplies for an army already constitutes a war crime, and that is simply not true.
A general in the field can also order No Quarter.
Declaring No Quarter is a war crime according to Article 23 (d) of the Hague Convention. This is binding for all parties in any international armed conflict since 1946.
Should the pony's that fought and died and were enslaved be put on trial because they as a society eradicated the Caribou? Same question because by definition they did the exact same thing the Caribou tried to do to the Pony's.
Is this a question? You're the one who's operating with collective responsibility. If you want my answer: Yes, someone who, as an individual, has participated in war crimes has to take responsibility for them - individually.
5686466 I try not to use real world examples but hey, why not. You used Germany. North Korea. An example of a government that creates total induction from birth. And the definition of War Crimes is from the Hague. I don't need to know it. Just read it. And the Caribou broke every one of them listed. And I was in the military and took courses on war crimes. I have even dealt with the results of attempted Genocide and a War Crimes. As for Article 23 (d) of the Hague Convention, what's that to Pony's and Caribou? They have never heard of it. Is there a Hague there? Nope! At best they have a Victorian era mindset or a late middle ages one. Total War and No Quarter are on the table. And besides, even if there were the Caribou broke them first! And like I said, the Pony's didn't tale prisoners. So the point is moot if there should have been trials and the other specie's putting pony's on trial after what happened to them would be another war in the making.
We already know that war crimes were committed by the caribou. So why do you mention it again? A war crime doesn't justify another one. But since you have taken courses on war crimes, you know that as well.
At best they have a Victorian era mindset or a late middle ages one. Total War and No Quarter are on the table.
The war scene was awesome.
'lesser creatures' yeah and thats why your father hasn't been able to concur dragons, cause there lesser then you.
You are enjoying yourself aren't you? I'll admit thinking of the actual story that caused this causes me to feel an anger I thought impossible, but you did it. morbid, horridly morbid, curiosity compels me to read the Fallout Equestria series but one play through of the game and I am shown just how bad it could be. For now... I'll just stick to the "happy" ending this is leading up to. Good job yet again. Watch your words though. Can't wait for the next one.
5678756
5679013 My thoughts exactly
5679188 Glad you like it my friend! And, yes, I'm enjoying this quite thoroughly, especially the next two chapters to come.
And about that happy ending..........I would tag it more like bitter-sweet
5679240 Notice the sarcasm. From my point of view Spike want's to die. I feel this is more a recording of his legend and fulfillment of his wish. Personally, and to my great disgust, I want to know how twilight and every one else is doing now. I mean discord seemed pretty freaked up. I don't want to imagine fluttershy, Celestia, god forbid Twilight snapping out of it and realizing everything they had done, but the engineer in me the person that questions how this will affect that what repercussions come from this event, what damage comes from this line of actions... Please tell me you give closure on this.
Less sexual slavery, more tactical talk, and FINALLY Spike gets caribou blood on his clawed paws. I can stomach this a little easier in hopes that things are looking and moving up.
Nice job on the fight-followed-by-nightmarish-monster-feast. Twisted my damn guts, but it was bittersweet and most of all, plausible.
EXTINCTION TO THE WORTHLESS CARIBOU, AND OBLIVION TO THEIR SICK WAYS OF EXISTENCE!
5679188 FALL OF Equestria. Get your sagas straight.
5679408
Really? ... !! My mistake.
5679255 Of course they have closure.......yes, they do.
Oh fuck. OH FUCK. This is giving me chills. Up until this point, I wasn't really sure if I wanted to keep reading, but now I want to finish so bad. I will admit I wasn't the biggest fan, but I'm reveling in the blood. Please spill more worthless caribou blood. This is now one of my favorite stories.
5679408
5679419
Yeah. Though Fallout Equestria can get caught up in it's grimdarkness, depending on the story, it has absolutely NOTHING on Fall of Equestria.
5679398
Do you prefer to kill the cows and fawns with your own bare hands, or would you rather leave the task to others?
5680109 Funny thing is I actually found FOE because one time I was searching a Fallout Equestria story,,I ended writing Fallouf Equestria, google offered me a Did you mean ? message and I went "What is this shit?"
That's how I was introduced to FOE, my initial reaction? Rage, that was my initial reaction. It got even worse when I found out there's a female-dominant version called Utopia Planitia (I think), thankfully that one is no where near as famous as FOE.
5679602 Glad you're enjoying it! Hopefully I will deliver the next chapter soon.
5680220
There's a misandrist version!? Jeez, what will the internet come up with next.
5680281 Aaaaaand I just witnessed the birth of another version called Fall from Grace, still fresh on Derpibooru.
5680451 Glad you like it so much then! And to be honest? When I started this fic I was ready to receive a LOT of hate, but it seems many like it so I'm happy they do!
5680192 Eh, a bushcraft knife will do. Just gotta make sure the alloy is at least on the level of HCR13MOV.
I like this, he set up the perfect trap. Used his own people as bait, got them and some of his own killed and then let the Everfree do the rest. And he got to laugh the entire time because he and his drank a potion to keep themselves safe. But what cost, what noble sacrifice of the 600?
And once again, I still don't understand how Spike can be on trial. Hell, the testimonys at the top of the chapter should mean whats left of Equestria would rise up if this trial judged him guilty.
5682219
Yeah, I also can't understand how Spike can be on trial for something as mundane as genocide! [/Irony]
Not to mention that he also commits a bunch of other crimes in this story, not all of them against the caribou.
5682298 True, and all of them needed to be done. And if you look they were all done and planned out with others or in consultation with others. And finally he is at war. He has seen his friends, family, people he knows be killed, raped, blanked, and tortured. And if you notice, he gave the condemned, those 600 that fought a suicidal battle a promise. And from what I get from this story. He kept his word to them. And the Caribou deserve to die, and Spike like all of the mare's and stallions in Equestria deserved to kill them for what the Caribou did to them.
5682404
I simply reject the premises of this claim. All of them, in fact. It is one thing to kill in war. It is another thing to start making decisions about who is worthy to live and who isn't, and then executing people without due process just because of their race. Whoever does something like this in real life is a tyrant and a madman. It also doesn't matter what the others have done - after all, if it mattered to him, he would grant each one of them them due process for their crimes instead of just eradicating the entire race.
Even despite all your apparent opposition, you simply buy FoE's central premises - among others that all caribou are irredeemably evil. Something I find hilariously implausible. You're also still ignoring the cow issue.
Well, at least it gives me an incentive to continue my own Post-Fall project - where a small but growing number of caribou rebels work together with ponies to end Dainn's regime.
5682454 Hey, I'm going by Spikes thoughts on this. He wants revenge, and he want's blood. And when your in the middle of blood and pain you either go one of two ways. You cringe in horror at what your doing and pull back. Or you embrace that dark side and take it where it leads. Spike is embracing it. And it leads to genocide. And if you note from the opening quotes at the beginning of the chapters. The pony's are quite happy he went there. Its everybody else, those who surrendered, those who helped the Caribou, even those who stood by and did nothing that are upset by the genocide of the Caribou. But did they move to stop the genocide when it happened? Did they give the Caribou a place to run? No, they watched it happen and then deem themselves judges.
5682509
It is indeed at least debatable whether those people are worthy of the right to pass judgment. I actually agree with you on that point. But even then, what Spike did is still a crime even if his judges are unworthy.
I fail to see what the ponies being happy has to do with the moral quality of Spike's actions. After all, we're talking about genocide here, not about rightful judgment (once again, that would have required due process).
I'm not saying that succumbing to madness and thirst for revenge isn't to some degree understandable in such a situation. But understandable is simply not the same thing as justifiable. I also believe your opposition is false. There are other options than either cowering in fear or succumbing to madness, even in the middle of blood and pain. I think we need more Post-Fall fics that explore those options.
5682526 Its your opinion, but its also not what the story is about. The story is about Spike giving into the darkness and committing genocide. And yet I notice one thing. He's Spike, a single Dragon. He could probably take on a dozen Caribou and win. An army of them? Nope. He didn't commit genocide, he may have led the army. But it was still an army, a nation that rose up that committed genocide. One man or in this case, a dragon cannot do it alone. They could all have stopped at any point and said no. They didn't.
And now, I think this story is the other nations making Spike the scapegoat. For the act itself, the fact that others stood by and did nothing, and that when Equestria was invaded they abandoned there allies. I have more respect for Spike because he did exactly what he promised others he would do. And he did it even if it damned him.
5682586
How to take responsibility for a collective crime is indeed a difficult question. It isn't even really solved for the real world. But it should be clear that the leaders should at least shoulder a fair share of the responsibility. I'm not saying that you should outright kill them - I'm actually opposed to the death penalty in general, and I really don't like fics where Spike is killed (I made that mistake myself once, but I scrapped the entire thing and will never do it again). But this one makes it a bit hard for me to root for him. In a way, this Post-Fall fic is almost more bleak than FoE itself. There is simply no side, no character here that I could really root for.
5682608 Also very true. The fact of the matter is that Spike led the army, but the army did the killing. Spike may have committed crimes but so did every troop under his command. And so did there allies, and so did those who stood and watched and those who joined with the Caribou. There are mentions of the Caribou killing prisoners, there slave, and people who just disagreed with them. They committed these acts first. Before Spike led an army to exterminate them. And he did so because its easier to kill the Caribou off then worry about them a few generations down the road. The list of crimes the Caribou committed deserve that sentence.
And the more I read this, he isn't on trial for Genocide. He's on trial to see if he will become the new leader of Equestria. Too many hints that he is Celestia's son and all that. The pony's of Equestria may not even trust the Princess's anymore. But the Alexander of Macedon that gave them there revenge? Probably he is on trial so the other leaders can hope to stop him from becoming a ruler.
5682632
As I said, we simply don't know how to ascribe collective responsibility in a sensible way. A sentence like this could never be passed because there wasn't due process - because due process can ever only deal with single individuals, never with collectives. How do you ascribe responsibility here? If the collective responsibility of the caribou deserves them this sentence, who passes it, by what standards, and why does he not also sit judgment over the collective responsibility of the other side? Where does it end? Once we go there, once we pass judgment over collectives this way, our actions against single individuals of that collective become entirely arbitrary. It's essentially "anything goes" then, and there is no point at which we could stop ever again.
In a way, it might even be better to kill off a single individual who is willing shoulder the entire responsibility and then to start anew and keep the memory alive than to continue this vicious cycle forever. This is actually one of the themes in my own Post-Fall project: Single individuals who voluntarily decide to shoulder the responsibility for the crimes of many. In a way, it's the exact reversal of your reasoning here.
That's an interesting interpretation, and certainly not implausible.
5682661 Sorry, there entire culture is based about male dominance. They collectively have committed the crime of pushing it on others. The Caribou used magic, rape, rape training, humiliation, blanked mares (literally murder without it being murder), torture, and many other crimes. And they don't consider it wrong. The caribou consider this to be perfectly normal. Not one, one Caribou stood up and said NO. If any species deserved extinction they do. And don't forget, the Caribou were the aggressors. They got exactly what was coming to them, and Spike gave it to them, collectively.
5682686
As I said, I find that highly implausible. Just because you saw no one doesn't mean there was no one.
There were also only very few Germans who actively opposed Hitler (i.a. because it meant risking one's life).
As a German, I will be forever thankful that the Allies didn't think the same way you do after the war.
5682691 You find it implausible. I'm sorry. Did I mention the part or did you miss it where they considered everything they were doing to be perfectly normal? None of them would have stood up to say no. Not one. They were raised from birth to think that way. They believed in male dominance to the core. Some may have been sympathetic, but the only difference it might make is to feed there mares a bit better and give them slightly larger cages and that would be about it. They were essentially a species gone mad with a mindset so far into left field to not even be seen by the other species!
5682725
Just because you saw no one doesn't mean there was no one.
5682732 Not going to argue. I say lets agree to disagree and leave it at that. Were filling out the comments a bit too much anyway!
5682756
Well, I think this is a serious matter, with consequences for the way we deal with violent conflicts in real life.
It is completely understandable to be pissed about FoE and about how the caribou we see act in FoE's fics. But instead of cultivating hatred against the caribou as a species, we should begin to criticize FoE's underlying premises and assumptions - and then write fics that show different perspectives. That's why the main character of my own Post-Fall project is a caribou - one who opposes the system and cooperates with mares on equal terms. He still has some very serious character flaws, and he has done horrible things in the past, so he clearly isn't a shining hero. But he wants to make amends for what he's done.
5682756
5682771
Man, I was enjoying this debate quite a lot! And both of you are right at some degree.
Just wait for the next chapters to unfold, some of your questions will be answered.
5682732
I strongly suspect that any caribou who dared say no would have ended up converted into a female slave. You think they invented that shtick just for ponies?
If there were any caribou males who were opposed to this (and keep in mind caribou females have about the intelligence of moderately smart dogs, so none of them could possibly stand up -- I strongly suspect this was done to them via magic at some point), they would have had to keep their silence and keep hidden. Which means, unfortunately, that if there were any secret sympathizers, Spike probably slaughtered them too. But they couldn't have helped very much, because any noticeable amount of treating females well would have resulted in the misogynistic, totalitarian regime turning on them and enslaving them.
This is how misogyny in real life has lasted for thousands of years. Men are raised to believe women are inferior, and any guy who doesn't believe it is mocked and denigrated by other men, so maintaining social power and status is dependent on at least making other men think you don't defer to women. And this is real life, where no society has ever been as evil or misogynistic as the caribou, and where the punishment for being "hen-pecked" or "pussy-whipped" is just other men making fun of you. If they would turn you into a woman and make you a rape slave for treating women well, I think very, very few men would risk it. It's human nature... and likely, pony and caribou nature as well. Think of "You got beat by a girl," "You take orders from a woman?", "I can see who wears the pants in your family"... etc.
5682771
5682756
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5683009 Sorry no. Conversations like this turn into arguments far too easily. He has his viewpoint and I have mine. And yes Genocide is a horrible thing. But like a great man said. Some men deserve killing. The Caribou are a species that deserves to die. I don't see a single redeeming characteristic that should warrant leaving a single male of there species to live. The females maybe and the very young, but in the end there a dead race without the males and unless the pony's take pity.
And I don't see anyone in this story taking pity.
All I'll say is...Blueblood, Called it
5683006
Well, my caribou has a little bit of... divine help, as it were. I'm really toning it down though. He also owns the castle of the two sisters in the Everfree forest now (because it was still in ruin and no one else wanted it), so he is a bit secluded from the rest of caribou society and can try things he couldn't under Dainn's regime. In the beginning, he's still a misogynist to some degree, but as I said, he cooperates with mares on equal terms.
As for the cows, I agree with you that they wouldn't be able to stand up to their males. I think they're a little bit smarter than you depict them - but not much, probably. So yeah, they're not exactly the brightest lights in the room. If you want to discuss this in detail, I think it's better to use PMs. They're also physically extremely weak, and they're driven to submission and dependence, and I think this is not just a result of their upbringing. It has to do with how their minds and sensoria work. So yeah, they're not much of a hope, really.
5683340
I will not discuss the legitimacy of the death penalty here because without due process, a discussion about this topic is nothing but a joke anyway. No, genocide is never "deserved", for the simple reason that collectives simply cannot "deserve" anything. Only individuals can "deserve" something in this sense of the term.
"I don't see..." again. You don't see every single individual male of their species. Seriously, have you considered the possibility that there might be something wrong with your glasses? What you do here is called inductive reasoning, and the way you do it, it's a fallacy. This is not a matter of opinion, your way of reasoning here is objectively false. See also: Problem of induction. It only seems to work here because the caribou are a fictional species, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a fallacy. Whenever someone applies a flawed reasoning like this to real world problems, things usually turn from simply false to horribly wrong in ten seconds flat. I reject any of the judgments you pass, on the grounds that someone who employs flawed logic to come to his judgments is incapable of judging at all. He judges not by reason but by emotion, in other words arbitrarily.
This is one reason why I believe that whenever it comes to passing judgment, it is essential to have due process. One MUST NEVER judge one individual for the crimes another one has committed. (Maybe with the exception of a case where one individual voluntarily shoulders the responsibility for another one's deeds.)
Well, that's a pity.
THIS IS BLOODY BRILLIANT, It honestly deserves many, many more likes than it has. It's got violence, gore, caribou death in the extreme(can't be without that ), awesome battles, more gory caribou death ()
Also, can't forget spikes amazingly inspirational speech to the rebels, it was so beautiful*wipes away manly tears*
Good sir you have made Blueblood likable in a FoE Fic period. You have just won the site, the internet, and all the cookies in the cookies jar.
5684109
At the moment, I re-watch Babylon 5, an old Sci-Fi series from the early nineties. It's a rather dark setting compared to similar shows with a more positive outlook like Star Trek, and also more emotionally intense. Today I re-watched the episode The Long Twilight Struggle. During the scene where the Centauri bombard the Narn homeworld with mass drivers, for only a single moment I thought: Damn Centauri, kill them all! I instantly became scared of myself. In fact, I slapped myself in the face as soon as I realized what I had just thought.
We are all human beings, and it can be damn tempting sometimes. But if we ever catch our minds going even a single step in that direction, we must bring ourselves to turn around immediately. Even if it's just fiction.
5684109 OK, then I challenge you to find a single Caribou in any one of these storys, just one that doesn't deserve to die. Show me one that showed pity, show one that didn't follow order's. Show one that isn't like the rest. And no, your unfinished story doesn't count. For one you wrote it.
This is there culture, there raised this way to treat females as less than dirt. They were the aggressors. They have committed crimes ten time's worse than Spike has. Brought up Babylon 5? OK, Death by Personality. Caribou did it to. They called it blanking. Only difference they enslaved and tortured what came out. You are somewhat correct. Punishing the collective is wrong, but here is the issue with that. Every single male caribou who invaded, supports the invasion, or even is at there homeland and sending supplies, equipment, and any kind of support is guilty. By definition there all guilty of crimes. And in case you haven't noticed the Pony's are at war. Do you show mercy to a rabid animal? No, you kill it. And that's what Spike did, he built an army and he put down the rabid animal. Because if he didn't in a few generations they might try again.
Now saying all that. The females might be spared and those too young but that's no way to keep a breeding population and I think its even mentioned that there not quite extinct yet so some did survive.
5684508
First of all, your entire question once again rests on the same fallacy of total induction. You essentially ask me to be as stupid as FoE's premises. I refuse. I will not buy the highly implausible just because it's handed to me.
I'm certainly not saying that hatred for the caribou isn't understandable. I'm just saying that hatred can't be a foundation of judgment, ever. It's not just that it would turn us into monsters. It would also make us stupid, and that's not exactly a good thing for a species that uses intelligence as its primary survival strategy.
Also, for a moment I did consider giving you an example of a stag from canon who I believe doesn't deserve death (even though he's still a criminal and a bastard). But then I remembered all my troubles with the entire concept of a "deserved death". I think it's a concept that betrays an unsound mind, or at the very best a disavowed feeling of cognitive helplessness. So yeah, figure it out yourself if you want to, I won't discuss this here, but if you want to make a guess about who I had in mind, feel free to send me a PM.
Yes, I know, and that's absolutely horrible. What was your point again?
No one is guilty unless found guilty in a fair trial. Also, your definition is wrong. Declaring an entire population war criminals just for providing supplies has no foundation in any international law, and for good reason. So, not only do you employ flawed logic, you also judge people guilty without even knowing the laws that apply to the situation. So what is the foundation of your judgment? It's not logic, it's not law, so what is it?
There are laws even in war, you know? War does not justify genocide. Because that's what is called a war crime.
If you knew anything about rabies, you would know that killing a rabid animal in the later stages of the sickness is the appropriate form of showing mercy. But this comparison doesn't apply here. No, I won't go into detail.
A cow is not able to survive for even a month without the guidance and protection of her master. But then again, maybe Spike and the others now keep the cows for themselves - at least this way they could be kept alive. That would make for an interesting twist, don't you think?
5684516 Your viewpoint is that somewhere there is good caribou yet we haven't seen one yet. Your viewpoint is that there needs to be a reason to save the caribou. But in the end, in this story, no matter what we argue or debate. There all dead. Fallacy of total induction? That's there culture, there raised that way. From birth! That's pretty much total induction. I brought up blanking because that is essentially murder and then they torture the whole new personality! Were talking real low. And they created this before they ever invaded! We are literally talking about something they consider a method of control. And an invading army that commits the crimes the caribou have is guilty of crimes. War Crimes of the highest caliber. And as for the definition.
A war crime is a serious violation of the laws and customs of war (also known as international humanitarian law) giving rise to individual criminal responsibility. Examples of war crimes include:
murdering, mistreating, or deporting civilian residents of an occupied territory to slave labor camps
murdering or mistreating prisoners of war or civilian internees
forcing protected persons to serve in the forces of a hostile power
killing hostages
killing or punishing spies or other persons convicted of war crimes without a fair trial
wantonly destroying cities, towns, villages, or other objects not warranted by military necessity
The Caribou do these and more. There most basic soldier in the field commits these crimes. Sure you can judge them individually. And a court can judge them en masse as well. A general in the field can also order No Quarter. And that's what Spike did. He gave no quarter. He judged them an army and there society as out of control, as a rabid animal. One not deserving of quarter or mercy.
And killed them all, his army killed them all. There allies killed them all. Same thing as your arguing. Should they put each and every soldier of the Caribou on trial? Probably. Did the Pony's take prisoners? Nope, not a one.
Should the pony's that fought and died and were enslaved be put on trial because they as a society eradicated the Caribou? Same question because by definition they did the exact same thing the Caribou tried to do to the Pony's.
5686392
Well, it certainly isn't the point I was making with my last post. Read it again.
Nice play on words. Unfortunately, you're wrong. Upbringing does not determine an intelligent beings in their entirety. It shapes your personality to a certain degree, but it doesn't turn you into a zombie who just executes a program. Otherwise, it wouldn't even be possible to attribute individual responsibility in the first place.
You don't have to quote the definition of war crimes to me because I know it. We all know that the caribou commit war crimes during and after the invasion. We're not discussing that. You were arguing that providing supplies for an army already constitutes a war crime, and that is simply not true.
Declaring No Quarter is a war crime according to Article 23 (d) of the Hague Convention. This is binding for all parties in any international armed conflict since 1946.
Is this a question? You're the one who's operating with collective responsibility. If you want my answer: Yes, someone who, as an individual, has participated in war crimes has to take responsibility for them - individually.
5686466 I try not to use real world examples but hey, why not. You used Germany. North Korea. An example of a government that creates total induction from birth.
And the definition of War Crimes is from the Hague. I don't need to know it. Just read it. And the Caribou broke every one of them listed. And I was in the military and took courses on war crimes. I have even dealt with the results of attempted Genocide and a War Crimes. As for Article 23 (d) of the Hague Convention, what's that to Pony's and Caribou? They have never heard of it. Is there a Hague there? Nope! At best they have a Victorian era mindset or a late middle ages one. Total War and No Quarter are on the table. And besides, even if there were the Caribou broke them first! And like I said, the Pony's didn't tale prisoners. So the point is moot if there should have been trials and the other specie's putting pony's on trial after what happened to them would be another war in the making.
5686523
We already know that war crimes were committed by the caribou. So why do you mention it again? A war crime doesn't justify another one. But since you have taken courses on war crimes, you know that as well.
Yes, and that is unjust.