The four of them exchanged looks of horror. If this had been what this world's Discord was responsible for... well. Now Spike thought he knew why his counterpart had killed Discord.
Harmony Spike would be especially horrified at the maiming of Twilight Velvet and Night Light, but also at the deaths of Cadance and Luna. By this time, he knows their Harmony versions quite well, indeed Cadance is his sister-in-law.
"... He took Sombra's horn, tossed him to the Crystal Ponies, and did something to their minds – they'd been repressing everything Sombra did to them. They were so overwhelmed with fear and hurt, they'd blocked out everything from their memories. Discord brought it all back. Sombra was dead before anypony could do anything; the Crystal Ponies turned into a bloodthirsty mob and ripped him apart."
Big Mac's advice makes a lot of sense. I like that -- I read him as rather wise, too.
He unleashed literal bookworms, insects that in their larval form devoured paper. More than half the books in Equestria are gone, Twilight, damaged beyond repair.
That would bother Twilight more than it did, if it weren't in a long litany of horrors. What a terrible worldline for everypony!
"Ohhh," Rarity moaned dramatically. "Ooooh, the pain! Oh, my insides! Applejack, please, tell me honestly, am I dying?"
"I figure you probably won't die," Applejack said dryly.
Applejack is being completely honest! To be fair to Opposition Discord, Sombra pretty much deserved this fate.
Though I'm guessing Opposition Discord wasn't a happy camper either at this point ... his actions had already led to Luna's death and Celestia's madness; outcomes he probably very much did not intend.
"Ruined my coiffure countless times, deeply embarrassed me on more than one occasion, and made my boutique rotate as if it were an actual carousel, but Applejack is right; he has never killed anypony that we know of. Though this little excursion to another world is so far outside the terms of his parole I am quite sure Princesses Celestia and Luna intend to throw the book at him, so to speak."
Very clever, Rarity. If you'd claimed that Discord had been a good little colt, O-Shining wouldn't have believed you. But everything you said in your first sentence is true.
Not that Celly and Luna would be happy about what H-Discord did, but they might well decide he had already been punished enough, since what the Elements of Opposition have been doing to him are far beyond anything either of them would do, in their right minds, to punish Discord -- or really anyone. I actually think it's beyond what Nightmare Moon would do -- she never showed herself to be sadistic to that degree!
6853537 exactly what he said, but with expletives. it's wonderful to see another chapter of this go up. also, OUCH. i feel sorry for almost everyone involved...
P.S. I would not trust Celestia 100% if I were Twi. Would not be surprized if that resurrection spell has a macabre clause. And poor Fleur! I really pity Fancy Pants.
6853537 "A Persimmon Spring" is based on Elements of Opposition, but is non-canon for the simple reason that Chuckfinley didn't know that this Chrysalis is... shall we say, not a particularly upright, moral individual. However, I did borrow back from him in the sense that the entire reason Chrysalis decided to join forces with Celestia was that Discord targeted her hive for a "game" that caused massive disruption and possibly death (that having been fairly early in Discord's descent -- he started out angry but not totally evil -- I am not sure it was the same event as in Persimmon Spring, and I'm not sure how much death it caused, but Changeling hives are heavily dependent on harmony and disharmonizing a hive would have caused serious, serious problems and probably killed a bunch of Changelings.)
OK, Celly's gone around the twist if she thinks she can bring Luna back to life. The more I read about this world line, the more screwed up it is. Still the H Mane seven are on the way to fix some of the biggest problems. Still If Rarity, Applejack, Pinkie, and Spike can find some more evidence that Cadence is alive that could get the guard off their backs.
I wonder if Flutter butter can bring are resident Chaos spirit out of his death spiral.
I agee, Mac seems to be at his best here, after all his sister hasn't been for sometime, and we all know he wants to be a good example for Apple Bloom. And It looks like even in this world line Sombra went to pieces because of the Crystal ponies. Funny that..
Rarity's insight was in top form; and the whole bit with the sewing kit in her mane, wow. More and more the girls and spike are showing how capable the are even without the elements.
Huh, I wonder if Cadance is still alive deep in some cavern that Chrysalis stashed her in, or if she's already died? I hope that comes to light before the gang leaves this world. And I'd bet my last dollar Celestia's resurrection spell is going to require Twilight's life.
End of last chap: oh thank GOD it's the turn around chapter next!
This chap:ffffffffffUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Damned tease. I wait a full month, fervently checking the story for updates, and the misery is still going. Don't get me wrong - again, damn good story. It's just so painful, though, that I can't help but want it to end. I almost feel like Discord - trapped in a never ending cycle of torture.
All I want is them to meet again. I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach, though, that discord will mistake H fluttershy with O fluttershy and attack her when he realizes her "commands" don't work.
If you would just write a 5000 word chap where fluttershy reaches him and frees him (NOT FROM THE COLLAR THOUGH) I would be content. But... good stories can't be rushed.
Did Opposition Discord do those horrible things or did Chrysalis and her Changeling army frame him? Is the Opposition Discord that abused Fluttershy really a changeling or was he really that nasty? And if it's the latter, does that mean that regularharmony our Discord could have gone that way if he was pushed hard enough? Could all of them have gone that way if pushed hard enough?
Looks like they'll be rescuing Cadance too.
Harmony Fluttershy finally finds Discord
I suspect this will tear me apart as well. He's not going to believe that this is his Fluttershy because he's so far gone and he believes no one cares enough to save him. I hope she can talk him down because he might attack her. *bites nails*
Is the Opposition Discord that abused Fluttershy really a changeling or was he really that nasty?
At some point, more details about this will be in "World Without Harmony", but yes, Opposition Discord was emotionally abusive -- he knew that what he had done to her would make her turn cruel and sadistic, he knew that she would struggle with this and it would hurt her, and he used this fact to worm his way into her emotions. Basically "no one will love you but me because they'll all abandon you once they realize what a piece of shit you've become, but they think I'm a piece of shit too so I care about you because you're no worse than me." Also "embrace what you are, don't reject your inner cruelty just because ponies think you should, come on, who cares what they think, show me what you can do." it wasn't the traditional fictional abuse of screaming at someone and insulting them, more like the seduction that Sith Lords carry out on would-be apprentices... very Palpatine and Anakin.
It was her decision to seduce him -- she was attracted to him, he knew about her sadistic fantasies and some of the nasty things she'd already been driven to do, and she thought that she could get some leverage over him that way. (And she was right -- her seducing Discord was directly responsible for their defeating him, because that was how she distracted him long enough that he didn't notice Twilight breaking the spell that prevented the six of them from ever congregating in one place.) She told her friends about the leverage reason, despite which Rainbow Dash continued to call her a whorse. The fact that Discord was the only one who understood her sadistic impulses and accepted her for them, though, led her to bond to him emotionally more than to her friends, who were either assholes because of the corruption, or avoiding her because she was corrupted... which was why it utterly devastated her to betray him and have him turned to stone, but she did it anyway because she was trying to do the right thing for Equestria. And then Spike killed him. This is all part of why she's so abusive to our Discord.
6858404 This is actually something I wanted to say more about, but I had to run out to pick up my son from school.
I don't see Discord as someone who'd ever fall into the classic abusive stereotype of screaming at someone, insulting them, belittling them constantly, etc. But I totally think he would use someone else's emotional vulnerabilities to manipulate them, for his personal gratification or amusement. He's quite capable of doing to someone else what Tirek did to him (not anymore, now that he knows how it feels, but he used to be quite capable of stringing someone along, pretending to affection, and then hurting them emotionally and betraying them for amusement or because it was a necessary step in his plan or because he was getting too emotionally entangled and felt like he had to chase them off and reject them before they got control over him.)
So yes, "our" Discord had the capacity to be as emotionally abusive as Opposition Discord, and might even have used it in the past, during his reign. Part of the reason the pony he keeps referring to in Not the Hero as his "apprentice" went insane and tried to conduct the ritual that he just gave Opposition Twilight information about is that she was actually Celestia and Luna's student, a chaos mage they tried to train as his opponent, and he believed that inevitably ponies would turn on her and she'd recognize that she belonged on his side... so he spent a lot of time needling her, telling her that ponies would reject her because ponies hate chaos and her natural destiny was to be alone and unloved, unless she joined him. Then her husband flipped out and left her, taking their baby, because she lost control of her powers and he got scared, and it was the things that Discord had been telling her all along that made her snap. Celestia and Luna couldn't convince her that this was just her husband's problem and she was still worthy of love, because Discord had been chipping away at her self-esteem in that regard for years, and she finally snapped.
Part of where I want to go eventually is to bring Discord to recognize his own capacity for evil, recognize that many of the things he used to do were genuinely that awful, and feel remorse not because he did one especially horrible thing and regretted it, but because he comes to recognize that the things he used to do were wrong. Opposition Discord did stuff he thought would be amusing, and it led to things going increasingly badly for him and everyone else, and part of the reason he became sadistic enough to do things like engineer Sombra's death or punish the Changelings for Chrysalis' pride by making a good number of them slowly starve to death was that he was getting hurt, by tactics his enemies used against him and by the unforeseen consequences of what he himself had done.
I actually find the slow burn of whittling down someone's defenses a much more horrifying form of abuse than being screamed or shouted at. As much as it pains me to say it, (because I've been on the receiving end of that kind of abuse and Discord is one of my favourite characters), yes I can see him doing this if he thinks he's in the right. i.e. "You all put me in stone/abandoned me/refuse to understand me so you are all fair game as far as I'm concerned."
I don't think I could write it though...because feels.
Having said that, I think my version of Discord can sometimes be a bit too cuddly. Yeah, he's got a caring side, but he is a trickster and I don't think I've written enough of him doing bad, mischievous, morally ambigious stuff. :P
Having said that, I think my version of Discord can sometimes be a bit too cuddly. Yeah, he's got a caring side, but he is a trickster and I don't think I've written enough of him doing bad, mischievous, morally ambigious stuff. :P
It's a fine line to walk when you write villains, even reformed villains. Too good, and they lack the bite they have in canon, and the character feels OOC. Too dark, and they lose audience sympathy, and possibly your own.
I'm totally cheating here -- I get to have a really dark Discord, who's dead so we're never put in the position of having to sympathize with him, and a Discord who's powerless and being tortured so even when he does do something dark (like, oh I dunno, plot to annihilate an entire planet full of mostly innocent beings because six of them are torturing him and their nation's leader knows and turns a blind eye to it), he's sympathetic. He lacks the power to be as cruel as he has the capacity for, he doesn't deserve what he's suffering, and we can see that his suffering is breaking him down mentally, so we can forgive him for shit that strictly speaking qualifies as plotting genocide, because we know in his right mind he'd never do such a thing.
And they're the same guy. Just took different pathways in life, within the past few years.
(I cheat with Not the Hero, too. Some of the stuff Discord does there, like tormenting a group of mares in order to prove to himself that reality is real, is much, much nastier than it sounds like when he describes it in his first person narration in journal format. When we're in his perspective it seems justified, because what could be a worse existential horror than not knowing if everything around you is a hallucination? But if we were in the perspective of those mares, who never found out why Discord was doing that, it would seem capricious, insane and horrible. They'd assume he was testing them by repeatedly demanding that they tell him what he changed while he broke reality around them, and that he was doing it for fun because he never expressed any deeper reason for it to them. Most of them probably have PTSD or at least some form of shock-related emotional trauma as a result.)
But yeah, I don't want to watch Discord torment Fluttershy. Or do egregiously awful things. In my headcanon, the lack of any kind of organized rule meant that many small villages fell into small-scale warlordism, where the family of the stallion who was best at protecting them from bugbears could get away with anything. Sometimes, desperate ponies went to Discord seeking justice, because there wasn't any other way to get it, and Discord decided their cases at random. I wanted to write one of these, but cheat by having Discord randomly decide this time to come down on the side of the actual wronged party because she knows how to cook potatoes in new and interesting ways, and demonstrates the potato chip to him. He could just as easily have let a rapist or murderer go free and punished a victim or a victim's family member for wasting his time because he liked the perpetrator better or because he flipped a coin or rolled the dice. But I don't actually want to write that one, even though I'm sure it happened, because it hurts to see someone you sympathize with do something that awful.
But I don't actually want to write that one, even though I'm sure it happened, because it hurts to see someone you sympathize with do something that awful.
Yes precisely this. I don't think I could write him as a sociopathic abuser because it cuts too close to the bone, regardless of how much it might fit the character in certain situations.
One thing I'm positive I could never do is write him as a rapist. I can certainly see him getting himself into situations of dubious consent like disguising himself as someone else (I suppose one could argue that is rape) but I mean the cold calculating "does not care that victim said no" type. I know in your headcanon he does not rape because he finds it "unimaginative" which could well be true but I also took it as code for "the idea squicks me but I'm not going to admit I'm that soft." My version of Discord actually has been raped in certain timelines, which has cemented the idea that it's abhorrent in his head. He's needy and has numerous weak spots so I could well see this happening to him, a weakness that Tirek easily took advantage of. But the other reason he doesn't is much more of a selfish reason: Namely that the idea of someone not wanting him during sex would grate on his ego.
holly shit this chap just gave SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much story o.0 dafuuuuq now i understand why you said its still a lot to come but im very happy for the fast update <3
I know in your headcanon he does not rape because he finds it "unimaginative" which could well be true but I also took it as code for "the idea squicks me but I'm not going to admit I'm that soft."
Kind of, yeah. Discord has actually invested a lot of emotional energy into playing himself up to himself as a much badder badass than he is. He's not as ruthless, cruel, or free from the ties of morality as he wants to pretend he is.
My version of Discord actually has been raped in certain timelines, which has cemented the idea that it's abhorrent in his head.
Aside from Elements of Opposition, mine has never been in a situation he defined as rape, because if someone is going to rape you and instead you conveniently decide to consent to it, you never have to deal with the fact that you were helpless and couldn't stop something you didn't want! In Equestria he's godawfully powerful, but he goes traveling in alternate dimensions a lot, and in many of them, he lost his magic from the differential between the universe's ambient magic levels and had to build it back up before he could get back home. In a few of those situations, he had to seduce his way out of a tight spot, and in some of those situations, things went in a direction he didn't want and didn't like... but it's easier on him emotionally to pretend that he experimented with something he doesn't usually like and decided that no, he still doesn't like it, than it would be to admit to himself that he had no choice.
He even tried this more or less in Elements of Opposition -- in flashback information we were shown in Chapter 6, his reaction after the first time he was raped was to try to use Fluttercruel's attraction to him to pull her in emotionally and win better treatment, which involved actively pretending to consent and even occasionally initiating things, until he figured out that she was a sexual sadist and was getting off on hurting and humiliating him, at which point he kind of snapped and couldn't pretend to himself that there was any part of this he wanted to consent to anymore.
I don't think Discord fully understands the dynamics of power differentials and how they can destroy consent -- I could see him having sex with someone who is primarily doing it because they are terrified of him, as long as they are managing to conceal from him that that's their primary reason, and if he found out, he still wouldn't recognize that they felt coerced by his power -- he'd be pissed off with them for lying and perceive himself as the wronged party. Or having sex with someone who he has distorted emotionally, because he doesn't, generally, do out-and-out mind control "you will do as I say" so much as he alters personalities, and if the new personality wants him, who is he to say no? The thought that having sex with someone whose personality you altered in such a way that it turns out they now want sex with you, if they wouldn't have in their right mind, could possibly constitute rape, would never enter his head. Also, of course as you pointed out the whole deception thing... it's probably never occurred to him that someone consenting to sex with whoever he's pretending to be is not the same thing as consenting to sex with him. But I agree, I don't think he has ever consciously used his power to coerce or control anyone into sex, partly because the main thing that turns him on is being wanted, partly because it's a "cheese move", and partly because rape actually disgusts him but he doesn't want to admit that lest ponies think he's not really all that hard after all.
6859838 I really just hope P.Twilight isn't getting swayed by this Celestia.
If this other 'sacrifice' entails the death of discord or another pony, somebody ought to knock Celestia upside the head.
Her comment on P.Twilight asking what Spike had written her, namely giving P.Twilight a dismissive response despite having Spike assured that P.Twilight won't be executed, made it seem pretty obvious that she was lying for the sake of gaining in on her own and bad Twilight's goals. Who knows, Celestia might be simply tricking this P.Twilight just to get her sister back (that's her greatest emotional baggage right now, Luna's death), seeing how she oh so thoroughly 'questioned' (more like supported) the "justice" of using torture on a Discord who isn't even their own but a different entity, despite her stupid claims that the are both 'basically' the same and he had the potential to become like their own Discord, anyway. This Celestia is pretty wacky and selfish as well already, after what has happened, while she also was pretty apathetic of discord's torture and the continued derailing of the Bearers. Instead if drowning heself in misery, she should have actively helped the bearers, no matter how weak she felt.
Now she's all: End justifies the means, can't help the bearers so why bother to improve them, let bad Twilight to her thing, even let them torture discord in the most inhuman ways possible, despite him not being the same person, therefore not guilty of anything.
No, no, no I wouldn't trust that particular Celestia at all! I wouldn't put it past Celestia to simply use P.Twilight and give nothing in return, no discord nor freedom for P.Twilight and company et cetera, just to get her sister back, seeing what a wreck she has become by loosing her.
I just hope P.Twilight can see through her trickery, a highly probable speculated move on my end for this Celestia.
On another note, by now I just skip over every cruel and disgusting line regarding discord and what he went through. I get it, he is tired, hurt, dying, gotta eat his own poop or hide evidence in his poop and add a mix of blood in it to cover up evidence, but it is grating my nerves to read these evil details over and over again, personally because I feel too strong for that poor guy.
I only stop and read that part where it's essential for the story, (very essential not like where he vomits in the bucket and does the whole faces toilet paper cover up, as he said himself, add his wastes to the mix, then twilight would never give that bucket a second sniff. This part I just speed read over in order to not let my imagination get too graphical).
All it does makes me want to scream "COME ON! GET HIM OUT ALREADY!"
It's also because the Dark Universe, and it's characters, is trying my patience with how they declare their joy in the gory glory, mostly Pie and Shy.
Really makes you want to shut them the hell up.
Some goes for the absolutely useless 'counter Spike'. If my theory with Celly is right, his little talk with mac and he sending the message didn't do shrimp crap. (that part actually really felt unnecessary).
Basically, 'Rescue Party Spike' is boss and much more entertaining to read, or watch what he does with his attitude, then the local clueless, helpless, whimsy Spike (despite him having smashed Jerkcord with Thor's hammer).
When they are done they should set the library on fire too, this Twilight deserves that bit of aggravation just as much as Brutashy did.
NOW! GET DISCORD DA HELL OUT OF THERE! FLUTTERSHY!
Some goes for the absolutely useless 'counter Spike'. If my theory with Celly is right, his little talk with mac and he sending the message didn't do shrimp crap. (that part actually really felt unnecessary). Basically, 'Rescue Party Spike' is boss and much more entertaining to read, or watch what he does with his attitude, then the local clueless, helpless, whimsy Spike (despite him having smashed Jerkcord with Thor's hammer).
Yes, what Opposition Spike did didn't do anything, because Celestia has her own plans and was never planning on doing what Opposition Twilight suggested anyway. But that's not the point.
In this story, not every plan that anyone comes up with, or even enacts, is going to work. Discord's plan to exhaust Fluttercruel and then escape while she was sleeping resulted in him being beaten within an inch of his life. Harmony Spike sacrificed some of his own gems to bring them on this trip in case they needed to bribe Opposition Spike, and lost them in the fight in the Everfree because his "pockets" were full of writing supplies and the gems were stashed in a backpack he lost. Opposition Spike trying to save the Harmony team isn't about him actually succeeding. It's about the fact that, despite the fact that he has far fewer resources than Harmony Spike (who has loyal friends and more self-esteem) and has been emotionally abused for months, he's still trying to do the right thing, even though it requires defying Oppo Twilight, who he's terrified of disobeying, and even though he has almost no ability to actually affect things.
Let's not forget that the reason Harmony Spike was able to effectively defeat a guardspony was that his friends came up with a plan, and then Rarity distracted the guard with an attack long enough for Spike to take him out. Harmony Spike's attempt to get the guards to sympathize with him didn't work, his attempt to get them to leave Twilight with the rest of the team didn't work, his attempt to contact Princess Celestia for help didn't work, and his attempt to save his friends by threatening Opposition Twilight backfired really badly. This isn't because Harmony Spike is incompetent, it's because he's a 14-year-old kid, not a Gary Stu, and his resources are limited. Opposition Spike's resources are even more limited.
So the point to that scene was not to say that Opposition Spike was able to save the Harmony team with his letter, or even accomplish much of anything. The point was to show that despite overwhelming odds against him, he's still trying.
YES i cannot wait for the next chapter! i'm so excited! :D this story is getting closer to ending and that idea makes me both happy and sad! seriously this has been one of my most loved and not so loved stories! depending on how it ends i might come back to re read it! X3
6864327 In other words it's just to ensure the readers of what attitude he has? ... meh this could have been done otherwise, and more compact, then the whole: "Wat we do bro?" discussion with Mac.
All those yups and nopes, while Spike is basically asking "what should I do?", though a bit differently phrased everytime, over and over again was a bit annoying and felt stretched.
Despite his abused position, as it is a matter of fact, the other Spike naturally feels more in charge as well as sympathatic and trustworthy than this spike, who feels much more clueless and helpless, which the harmony spike does not. Given the possibility that harmony spike didn't have his friends aid, it still seems like he would try harder, but this could be explained by opposition Spike's long term abused treatment, again. It still doesn't change impression o me though, that harmony Spike has the better image and character appearance. I favor his general behaviour over the other one.
I'd still like to know what Celestia is planning anyway.
After her explicit example of "justified [absolute inhuman] torture" and the loss of her sister, I can't believe she would not exploit P.Twilight's trust, who is more sane then her counterpart anyway, because this Celestia is much more loco in the moco then P.Twilight's Celestia, but still knows how to decieve her prized student. Also she is hurting like hell over her sisters death. The whole "revive my sister" plot sounds like she is just trying to get Luna back, but doesn't know what else to do afterwards to aid P.Twilight, or simply can't because of the bad unicorn Twilight.
That sapient tomato being devoured by bunnies is some existential horror. Pretty sure the price to raise Luna is Twilight's death. This story is so gripping and I can't wait to see how it turns out!
6864327 You do know, I enjoy you replies to other people a lot. I am actually learning a thing or more from you and you unique way of seeing and explaining things! Rock on!
" I have a use for Twilight's counterpart, and so long as she agrees to help me, I see no reason why any of her companions should be harmed. "
Sooooo, so long as Twilight disagrees no matter the issue, then by reverse logic she will be harmed? Yep, this Celestia has gone off the deep end. Can't believe I did not scrutinize her letter earlier. NIn fact, this is not choice, this is a classical negotiation technique: Condition for the other party to to something always comes first before your own offer to do something for the other party. Notice also how she states that Celestia does not refer to Harmony Twi as Twi. She says Opposition Twi's counterpart, not Princess Twi, not Twi, just counterpart. That little fact feels like degrading of Harmony Twilight and does not feel like recognises her as a person to me. Harmony Twilight is merely, ah, Opposition Twilight's counterpart. And she is viewed through Opposition Twilight's lens.
Then the second worrying phrase " use for Twilight's counterpart". My beef is with the word "use". Why does she not refer to her as Twilight and state that she is going to help them or something of that manner? A lot of ways her phrasing could go and this is what we see. The fact that both are in one phrase are starting to scare me actually, in addition to that other statement about harm.
Oh, this Celestia is a politician alright. And a sleazy one. She is desperate, I think, with many losses serving as a motivation. Notice how she also words the original sentence.
Celestia blatantly stated that Harmony Twi's friends will not come to harm so long as she agrees. There is no friggin' reference by Celestia on same safety umbrella extending to Harmony Twi, if you pay attention. By same logic then it is obvious that Harmony Twilight is not insured against harm and, if the above is correct, she probably will come to harm later on. The word "use" in singular also possibly gives Celestia's plan away. Surely an alicorn would serve many uses due to her power and knowledge, not one, yet this is what we get. Twilight will probably be of use alright, as an integral ingredient in Luna's ressurrection with a one-way ticket to 6 feet under or as the case is Pinkie's cupcake batter ingredient, should Opposition Celestia have her way with her. Just because Celestia stated she will not execute Twilight, does not preclude other grim deaths, namely...sacrifice!!! It is ALL a play on words, where the wording gives the game away. In my belief at least. I think some people might glaze this over also, because of Opposition Spike's happiness...however, deceived happiness. I think Celestia misled Spike and because of his young naivete he was deceived. She merely reassured his fear with a carefully worded letter, which is more worrying to a more cynic eye. What also may have helped is that Spike is highly stressed, this blinded him, which made him seek "fast" reassurance from the letter, leaving other facts unnoticed, glaring facts which vould have come to light had he bothered to reread in a measured, calm way. Much like skip-reading the new chapter of a favourite story fast, without sinking in too deeply. So Spike essentially was deceived and deceived himself.
I am legitimately scared for Harmony Twilight. I hope she looks out for the danger that this Celestia represents. Twilight is damn smart and should think well about things here. How I hope once she is left to her devices, she will realise things! She already did with keeping her view on Discord's torture methods, despite Celestia almost swaying her belief. That takes guts! I am proud of her already for this.
6860891 I whole-heartedly agree with you. You raise legitimate points.
I wrote a comment with a closer scrutinity to what Opposition Celestia states in her letter to Spike.I found worrying things, enough to label Celestia a danger, enemy even. Taking her behavior, attitide in this universe, the letter in fact gives reason to distrust Celestia to the maximum. She, might be weakened, but a dangerous emotional baggage with personal, highly motivated agenda to "fix" things. Plus, she has Chrysalis in her posse, if this is not a red flag, I don't know what else is.
6869443 If twilight really has to sacrifice herself, then Celestia can go eat cat poop for all I care, and so should Twilight think, alias "you shittin' me? After all you've done to an innocent discord, our friend, you dare proposing to sacrifice me just for getting Luna back?"
6881230 I know right? The sad thing is just, it's so easy to see how even now, considering this is an emotionally, physically weakened Celestia with a wacky wicked sense for what is righteous, in order to justify her behavior and extremely miserable grieving, she is still clever enough to trick P.Twilight and manipulate her yet again to do exactly what she desires.
And even worse is that the naive P.Twilight is falling for it "because it's her idol Celestia', why would she lie to her?"
And in return, crazy Celestia will probably do dodo for P.Twilight and her friends. As soon as she'd get Luna back, she'll be all "You know, do with this world what you want elements, I'm going to the 'Sun Bunker' with my sis. Help? I don't care, sorry, can't help you defeat bad Twilight anyway so forget that, but thanks for doing me a favor and giving me my sister back, farewell." Then she and Luna are gone from the face of that planet in just a blink.
Or at least, I feel some response similar to this will most likely be given by her highness... a highness having reached her newest low point.
That's how I expect her to have derailed from her 'good' ways, unfortunately since way to many bad things have happened in short succession to her, one event throwing harder punches to her head then others.
What they're doing... ain't just a bad thing, it's a stupid thing. He ever gets loose, there'll be all Tartarus to pay."
Well at least Big Mac gets why it's a stupid idea to torture a god of chaos.
I don't like Celestia's plan. There's many ways it could go wrong. Luna coming back as Nightmare moon, as a rotting zombie, or Twilight getting sacrificed.
Though I wonder. If opposition Discord is dead than why hasn't there been anothe chaos avatar to replace him? Does it work differently in that dimension?
"Oh, I know," Celestia said. "But there is a spell that can restore a dead alicorn to life, and I have the power to cast it, but only with the help of a second alicorn. With Luna and Cadance both dead, and my Twilight never likely to ascend, I would never have had that second alicorn to assist me if you hadn't come. Now that you're here... if you're willing to make the necessary sacrifice, I can bring Luna back to life."
"Excellent." As she had been coaching Applejack, Rarity had been stripping the doctor. "Unfortunately he's a stallion, so this shirt is a trifle loose, and I haven't time to tuck it up. Let's see if I can conceal it under the lab coat – ah yes, I think this will work well. Spike, how do I look?"
Royal Guardspony armor cast a glamour around the pony wearing it, making all Royal Guardstallions look identical aside from racial variation and a scant few who were much larger than the others. Guardsmares under the glamour looked similar enough that from a distance it wasn't obvious that they were mares, although anypony getting close to one would see the Guardsmare's gender clearly enough. The ceremonial duties were generally performed by stallions, because there were a lot more of them in the Guard than there were mares, and because old prejudices from earth ponies and unicorns against mares going into battle if there were any available stallions around to do it instead meant that most mares who joined the Guard had to prove themselves tougher, better fighters and more disciplined than any of the stallions in their cohort... which meant that once they actually got in, their skill set kept them in the corps that did real work rather than ceremonial duties. There wouldn't be many of them in the Palace today, if things worked the same here as they'd worked back home – but there would be some, and they wouldn't be questioned much. Guardsmares were assumed to have something important they were doing.
slight miscalculation on your part- royal guards are male for intimidation. equestria is a matriarchy, so males would probably take lower priority in jobs where they have to be effective
11615688 I have actually studied gender differences in multiple societies, and matriarchies are perfectly capable of deciding that men should be the soldiers because they're bigger and more expendable. The difference between a matriarchy and a patriarchy isn't going to be who are the soldiers -- it will still usually be men -- but how soldiers are thought of.
If a filly is discouraged from joining the army because she's not good enough, that's very different from her being discouraged because she's too good to stoop to a job like that.
Notice that the assumption boils down to "You shouldn't be in the military, but if you are in the military, you're elite and not stuck with ceremonial guarding duties when you could be doing the real important work." Kind of like how, in our society, cooking is women's work unless you're a chef, and if you're a chef then you're elite and better at cooking than women are (not that this is true, but it's how society sees it.)
:^)
The fire rises.
I await the next chapter with equal dread and excitement!
Harmony Spike would be especially horrified at the maiming of Twilight Velvet and Night Light, but also at the deaths of Cadance and Luna. By this time, he knows their Harmony versions quite well, indeed Cadance is his sister-in-law.
Big Mac's advice makes a lot of sense. I like that -- I read him as rather wise, too.
That would bother Twilight more than it did, if it weren't in a long litany of horrors. What a terrible worldline for everypony!
Applejack is being completely honest!
To be fair to Opposition Discord, Sombra pretty much deserved this fate.
Though I'm guessing Opposition Discord wasn't a happy camper either at this point ... his actions had already led to Luna's death and Celestia's madness; outcomes he probably very much did not intend.
Very clever, Rarity. If you'd claimed that Discord had been a good little colt, O-Shining wouldn't have believed you. But everything you said in your first sentence is true.
Not that Celly and Luna would be happy about what H-Discord did, but they might well decide he had already been punished enough, since what the Elements of Opposition have been doing to him are far beyond anything either of them would do, in their right minds, to punish Discord -- or really anyone. I actually think it's beyond what Nightmare Moon would do -- she never showed herself to be sadistic to that degree!
The carousel the carousel is on fire we don't need no water let that mother burn
I can't wait to see rarity's reaction
I'm totally digging on this and your other discord story. Keep going
Edit : got ask, is yours Crissy similar to "A Persimmon Spring" by Chuckfinley
6853537 exactly what he said, but with expletives.
it's wonderful to see another chapter of this go up.
also, OUCH. i feel sorry for almost everyone involved...
Oh! Keep the chapters coming! The story is amazing. I love it!
P.S. I would not trust Celestia 100% if I were Twi. Would not be surprized if that resurrection spell has a macabre clause. And poor Fleur! I really pity Fancy Pants.
Is Chrysalis making Celestia stupid when she feeds on her, or is Celestia just that broken?
I'm talking about the obvious flaw in her plan that Big Mac pointed out.
Oh mah gawd
I get the feeling Celestia has gone off the deep end and the spell she wants is gonna be a 'One for One' kind of thing...
I really hope it turns out Chrysalis faked Cadence's death and blamed it on Discord. It really seems that way, but it is possible that they are wrong.
6853537
"A Persimmon Spring" is based on Elements of Opposition, but is non-canon for the simple reason that Chuckfinley didn't know that this Chrysalis is... shall we say, not a particularly upright, moral individual. However, I did borrow back from him in the sense that the entire reason Chrysalis decided to join forces with Celestia was that Discord targeted her hive for a "game" that caused massive disruption and possibly death (that having been fairly early in Discord's descent -- he started out angry but not totally evil -- I am not sure it was the same event as in Persimmon Spring, and I'm not sure how much death it caused, but Changeling hives are heavily dependent on harmony and disharmonizing a hive would have caused serious, serious problems and probably killed a bunch of Changelings.)
OK, Celly's gone around the twist if she thinks she can bring Luna back to life. The more I read about this world line, the more screwed up it is. Still the H Mane seven are on the way to fix some of the biggest problems. Still If Rarity, Applejack, Pinkie, and Spike can find some more evidence that Cadence is alive that could get the guard off their backs.
I wonder if Flutter butter can bring are resident Chaos spirit out of his death spiral.
6853504
I agee, Mac seems to be at his best here, after all his sister hasn't been for sometime, and we all know he wants to be a good example for Apple Bloom. And It looks like even in this world line Sombra went to pieces because of the Crystal ponies. Funny that..
Rarity's insight was in top form; and the whole bit with the sewing kit in her mane, wow. More and more the girls and spike are showing how capable the are even without the elements.
Huh, I wonder if Cadance is still alive deep in some cavern that Chrysalis stashed her in, or if she's already died? I hope that comes to light before the gang leaves this world. And I'd bet my last dollar Celestia's resurrection spell is going to require Twilight's life.
End of last chap: oh thank GOD it's the turn around chapter next!
This chap:ffffffffffUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Damned tease. I wait a full month, fervently checking the story for updates, and the misery is still going. Don't get me wrong - again, damn good story. It's just so painful, though, that I can't help but want it to end. I almost feel like Discord - trapped in a never ending cycle of torture.
All I want is them to meet again. I have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach, though, that discord will mistake H fluttershy with O fluttershy and attack her when he realizes her "commands" don't work.
If you would just write a 5000 word chap where fluttershy reaches him and frees him (NOT FROM THE COLLAR THOUGH) I would be content. But... good stories can't be rushed.
Though I almost wish they would be.
Oh man this is breaking my brain.
Did Opposition Discord do those horrible things or did Chrysalis and her Changeling army frame him? Is the Opposition Discord that abused Fluttershy really a changeling or was he really that nasty? And if it's the latter, does that mean that
regularharmonyour Discord could have gone that way if he was pushed hard enough? Could all of them have gone that way if pushed hard enough?Looks like they'll be rescuing Cadance too.
I suspect this will tear me apart as well. He's not going to believe that this is his Fluttershy because he's so far gone and he believes no one cares enough to save him. I hope she can talk him down because he might attack her. *bites nails*
6858404
At some point, more details about this will be in "World Without Harmony", but yes, Opposition Discord was emotionally abusive -- he knew that what he had done to her would make her turn cruel and sadistic, he knew that she would struggle with this and it would hurt her, and he used this fact to worm his way into her emotions. Basically "no one will love you but me because they'll all abandon you once they realize what a piece of shit you've become, but they think I'm a piece of shit too so I care about you because you're no worse than me." Also "embrace what you are, don't reject your inner cruelty just because ponies think you should, come on, who cares what they think, show me what you can do." it wasn't the traditional fictional abuse of screaming at someone and insulting them, more like the seduction that Sith Lords carry out on would-be apprentices... very Palpatine and Anakin.
It was her decision to seduce him -- she was attracted to him, he knew about her sadistic fantasies and some of the nasty things she'd already been driven to do, and she thought that she could get some leverage over him that way. (And she was right -- her seducing Discord was directly responsible for their defeating him, because that was how she distracted him long enough that he didn't notice Twilight breaking the spell that prevented the six of them from ever congregating in one place.) She told her friends about the leverage reason, despite which Rainbow Dash continued to call her a whorse. The fact that Discord was the only one who understood her sadistic impulses and accepted her for them, though, led her to bond to him emotionally more than to her friends, who were either assholes because of the corruption, or avoiding her because she was corrupted... which was why it utterly devastated her to betray him and have him turned to stone, but she did it anyway because she was trying to do the right thing for Equestria. And then Spike killed him. This is all part of why she's so abusive to our Discord.
6858404
This is actually something I wanted to say more about, but I had to run out to pick up my son from school.
I don't see Discord as someone who'd ever fall into the classic abusive stereotype of screaming at someone, insulting them, belittling them constantly, etc. But I totally think he would use someone else's emotional vulnerabilities to manipulate them, for his personal gratification or amusement. He's quite capable of doing to someone else what Tirek did to him (not anymore, now that he knows how it feels, but he used to be quite capable of stringing someone along, pretending to affection, and then hurting them emotionally and betraying them for amusement or because it was a necessary step in his plan or because he was getting too emotionally entangled and felt like he had to chase them off and reject them before they got control over him.)
So yes, "our" Discord had the capacity to be as emotionally abusive as Opposition Discord, and might even have used it in the past, during his reign. Part of the reason the pony he keeps referring to in Not the Hero as his "apprentice" went insane and tried to conduct the ritual that he just gave Opposition Twilight information about is that she was actually Celestia and Luna's student, a chaos mage they tried to train as his opponent, and he believed that inevitably ponies would turn on her and she'd recognize that she belonged on his side... so he spent a lot of time needling her, telling her that ponies would reject her because ponies hate chaos and her natural destiny was to be alone and unloved, unless she joined him. Then her husband flipped out and left her, taking their baby, because she lost control of her powers and he got scared, and it was the things that Discord had been telling her all along that made her snap. Celestia and Luna couldn't convince her that this was just her husband's problem and she was still worthy of love, because Discord had been chipping away at her self-esteem in that regard for years, and she finally snapped.
Part of where I want to go eventually is to bring Discord to recognize his own capacity for evil, recognize that many of the things he used to do were genuinely that awful, and feel remorse not because he did one especially horrible thing and regretted it, but because he comes to recognize that the things he used to do were wrong. Opposition Discord did stuff he thought would be amusing, and it led to things going increasingly badly for him and everyone else, and part of the reason he became sadistic enough to do things like engineer Sombra's death or punish the Changelings for Chrysalis' pride by making a good number of them slowly starve to death was that he was getting hurt, by tactics his enemies used against him and by the unforeseen consequences of what he himself had done.
6858569
I actually find the slow burn of whittling down someone's defenses a much more horrifying form of abuse than being screamed or shouted at. As much as it pains me to say it, (because I've been on the receiving end of that kind of abuse and Discord is one of my favourite characters), yes I can see him doing this if he thinks he's in the right. i.e. "You all put me in stone/abandoned me/refuse to understand me so you are all fair game as far as I'm concerned."
I don't think I could write it though...because feels.
Having said that, I think my version of Discord can sometimes be a bit too cuddly. Yeah, he's got a caring side, but he is a trickster and I don't think I've written enough of him doing bad, mischievous, morally ambigious stuff. :P
6858619
It's a fine line to walk when you write villains, even reformed villains. Too good, and they lack the bite they have in canon, and the character feels OOC. Too dark, and they lose audience sympathy, and possibly your own.
I'm totally cheating here -- I get to have a really dark Discord, who's dead so we're never put in the position of having to sympathize with him, and a Discord who's powerless and being tortured so even when he does do something dark (like, oh I dunno, plot to annihilate an entire planet full of mostly innocent beings because six of them are torturing him and their nation's leader knows and turns a blind eye to it), he's sympathetic. He lacks the power to be as cruel as he has the capacity for, he doesn't deserve what he's suffering, and we can see that his suffering is breaking him down mentally, so we can forgive him for shit that strictly speaking qualifies as plotting genocide, because we know in his right mind he'd never do such a thing.
And they're the same guy. Just took different pathways in life, within the past few years.
(I cheat with Not the Hero, too. Some of the stuff Discord does there, like tormenting a group of mares in order to prove to himself that reality is real, is much, much nastier than it sounds like when he describes it in his first person narration in journal format. When we're in his perspective it seems justified, because what could be a worse existential horror than not knowing if everything around you is a hallucination? But if we were in the perspective of those mares, who never found out why Discord was doing that, it would seem capricious, insane and horrible. They'd assume he was testing them by repeatedly demanding that they tell him what he changed while he broke reality around them, and that he was doing it for fun because he never expressed any deeper reason for it to them. Most of them probably have PTSD or at least some form of shock-related emotional trauma as a result.)
But yeah, I don't want to watch Discord torment Fluttershy. Or do egregiously awful things. In my headcanon, the lack of any kind of organized rule meant that many small villages fell into small-scale warlordism, where the family of the stallion who was best at protecting them from bugbears could get away with anything. Sometimes, desperate ponies went to Discord seeking justice, because there wasn't any other way to get it, and Discord decided their cases at random. I wanted to write one of these, but cheat by having Discord randomly decide this time to come down on the side of the actual wronged party because she knows how to cook potatoes in new and interesting ways, and demonstrates the potato chip to him. He could just as easily have let a rapist or murderer go free and punished a victim or a victim's family member for wasting his time because he liked the perpetrator better or because he flipped a coin or rolled the dice. But I don't actually want to write that one, even though I'm sure it happened, because it hurts to see someone you sympathize with do something that awful.
6858711
Yes precisely this. I don't think I could write him as a sociopathic abuser because it cuts too close to the bone, regardless of how much it might fit the character in certain situations.
One thing I'm positive I could never do is write him as a rapist. I can certainly see him getting himself into situations of dubious consent like disguising himself as someone else (I suppose one could argue that is rape) but I mean the cold calculating "does not care that victim said no" type. I know in your headcanon he does not rape because he finds it "unimaginative" which could well be true but I also took it as code for "the idea squicks me but I'm not going to admit I'm that soft." My version of Discord actually has been raped in certain timelines, which has cemented the idea that it's abhorrent in his head. He's needy and has numerous weak spots so I could well see this happening to him, a weakness that Tirek easily took advantage of. But the other reason he doesn't is much more of a selfish reason: Namely that the idea of someone not wanting him during sex would grate on his ego.
holly shit this chap just gave SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much story o.0
dafuuuuq
now i understand why you said its still a lot to come
but im very happy for the fast update <3
6858848
Kind of, yeah. Discord has actually invested a lot of emotional energy into playing himself up to himself as a much badder badass than he is. He's not as ruthless, cruel, or free from the ties of morality as he wants to pretend he is.
Aside from Elements of Opposition, mine has never been in a situation he defined as rape, because if someone is going to rape you and instead you conveniently decide to consent to it, you never have to deal with the fact that you were helpless and couldn't stop something you didn't want! In Equestria he's godawfully powerful, but he goes traveling in alternate dimensions a lot, and in many of them, he lost his magic from the differential between the universe's ambient magic levels and had to build it back up before he could get back home. In a few of those situations, he had to seduce his way out of a tight spot, and in some of those situations, things went in a direction he didn't want and didn't like... but it's easier on him emotionally to pretend that he experimented with something he doesn't usually like and decided that no, he still doesn't like it, than it would be to admit to himself that he had no choice.
He even tried this more or less in Elements of Opposition -- in flashback information we were shown in Chapter 6, his reaction after the first time he was raped was to try to use Fluttercruel's attraction to him to pull her in emotionally and win better treatment, which involved actively pretending to consent and even occasionally initiating things, until he figured out that she was a sexual sadist and was getting off on hurting and humiliating him, at which point he kind of snapped and couldn't pretend to himself that there was any part of this he wanted to consent to anymore.
I don't think Discord fully understands the dynamics of power differentials and how they can destroy consent -- I could see him having sex with someone who is primarily doing it because they are terrified of him, as long as they are managing to conceal from him that that's their primary reason, and if he found out, he still wouldn't recognize that they felt coerced by his power -- he'd be pissed off with them for lying and perceive himself as the wronged party. Or having sex with someone who he has distorted emotionally, because he doesn't, generally, do out-and-out mind control "you will do as I say" so much as he alters personalities, and if the new personality wants him, who is he to say no? The thought that having sex with someone whose personality you altered in such a way that it turns out they now want sex with you, if they wouldn't have in their right mind, could possibly constitute rape, would never enter his head. Also, of course as you pointed out the whole deception thing... it's probably never occurred to him that someone consenting to sex with whoever he's pretending to be is not the same thing as consenting to sex with him. But I agree, I don't think he has ever consciously used his power to coerce or control anyone into sex, partly because the main thing that turns him on is being wanted, partly because it's a "cheese move", and partly because rape actually disgusts him but he doesn't want to admit that lest ponies think he's not really all that hard after all.
6859838 I really just hope P.Twilight isn't getting swayed by this Celestia.
If this other 'sacrifice' entails the death of discord or another pony, somebody ought to knock Celestia upside the head.
Her comment on P.Twilight asking what Spike had written her, namely giving P.Twilight a dismissive response despite having Spike assured that P.Twilight won't be executed, made it seem pretty obvious that she was lying for the sake of gaining in on her own and bad Twilight's goals.
Who knows, Celestia might be simply tricking this P.Twilight just to get her sister back (that's her greatest emotional baggage right now, Luna's death), seeing how she oh so thoroughly 'questioned' (more like supported) the "justice" of using torture on a Discord who isn't even their own but a different entity, despite her stupid claims that the are both 'basically' the same and he had the potential to become like their own Discord, anyway.
This Celestia is pretty wacky and selfish as well already, after what has happened, while she also was pretty apathetic of discord's torture and the continued derailing of the Bearers.
Instead if drowning heself in misery, she should have actively helped the bearers, no matter how weak she felt.
Now she's all: End justifies the means, can't help the bearers so why bother to improve them, let bad Twilight to her thing, even let them torture discord in the most inhuman ways possible, despite him not being the same person, therefore not guilty of anything.
No, no, no I wouldn't trust that particular Celestia at all! I wouldn't put it past Celestia to simply use P.Twilight and give nothing in return, no discord nor freedom for P.Twilight and company et cetera, just to get her sister back, seeing what a wreck she has become by loosing her.
I just hope P.Twilight can see through her trickery, a highly probable speculated move on my end for this Celestia.
On another note, by now I just skip over every cruel and disgusting line regarding discord and what he went through.
I get it, he is tired, hurt, dying, gotta eat his own poop or hide evidence in his poop and add a mix of blood in it to cover up evidence, but it is grating my nerves to read these evil details over and over again, personally because I feel too strong for that poor guy.
I only stop and read that part where it's essential for the story, (very essential not like where he vomits in the bucket and does the whole faces toilet paper cover up, as he said himself, add his wastes to the mix, then twilight would never give that bucket a second sniff. This part I just speed read over in order to not let my imagination get too graphical).
All it does makes me want to scream "COME ON! GET HIM OUT ALREADY!"
It's also because the Dark Universe, and it's characters, is trying my patience with how they declare their joy in the gory glory, mostly Pie and Shy.
Really makes you want to shut them the hell up.
Some goes for the absolutely useless 'counter Spike'. If my theory with Celly is right, his little talk with mac and he sending the message didn't do shrimp crap.
(that part actually really felt unnecessary).
Basically, 'Rescue Party Spike' is boss and much more entertaining to read, or watch what he does with his attitude, then the local clueless, helpless, whimsy Spike (despite him having smashed Jerkcord with Thor's hammer).
When they are done they should set the library on fire too, this Twilight deserves that bit of aggravation just as much as Brutashy did.
NOW! GET DISCORD DA HELL OUT OF THERE! FLUTTERSHY!
6860891
Yes, what Opposition Spike did didn't do anything, because Celestia has her own plans and was never planning on doing what Opposition Twilight suggested anyway. But that's not the point.
In this story, not every plan that anyone comes up with, or even enacts, is going to work. Discord's plan to exhaust Fluttercruel and then escape while she was sleeping resulted in him being beaten within an inch of his life. Harmony Spike sacrificed some of his own gems to bring them on this trip in case they needed to bribe Opposition Spike, and lost them in the fight in the Everfree because his "pockets" were full of writing supplies and the gems were stashed in a backpack he lost. Opposition Spike trying to save the Harmony team isn't about him actually succeeding. It's about the fact that, despite the fact that he has far fewer resources than Harmony Spike (who has loyal friends and more self-esteem) and has been emotionally abused for months, he's still trying to do the right thing, even though it requires defying Oppo Twilight, who he's terrified of disobeying, and even though he has almost no ability to actually affect things.
Let's not forget that the reason Harmony Spike was able to effectively defeat a guardspony was that his friends came up with a plan, and then Rarity distracted the guard with an attack long enough for Spike to take him out. Harmony Spike's attempt to get the guards to sympathize with him didn't work, his attempt to get them to leave Twilight with the rest of the team didn't work, his attempt to contact Princess Celestia for help didn't work, and his attempt to save his friends by threatening Opposition Twilight backfired really badly. This isn't because Harmony Spike is incompetent, it's because he's a 14-year-old kid, not a Gary Stu, and his resources are limited. Opposition Spike's resources are even more limited.
So the point to that scene was not to say that Opposition Spike was able to save the Harmony team with his letter, or even accomplish much of anything. The point was to show that despite overwhelming odds against him, he's still trying.
YES
i cannot wait for the next chapter! i'm so excited! :D
this story is getting closer to ending and that idea makes me both happy and sad! seriously this has been one of my most loved and not so loved stories! depending on how it ends i might come back to re read it! X3
6864327 In other words it's just to ensure the readers of what attitude he has?
... meh this could have been done otherwise, and more compact, then the whole:
"Wat we do bro?" discussion with Mac.
All those yups and nopes, while Spike is basically asking "what should I do?", though a bit differently phrased everytime, over and over again was a bit annoying and felt stretched.
Despite his abused position, as it is a matter of fact, the other Spike naturally feels more in charge as well as sympathatic and trustworthy than this spike, who feels much more clueless and helpless, which the harmony spike does not.
Given the possibility that harmony spike didn't have his friends aid, it still seems like he would try harder, but this could be explained by opposition Spike's long term abused treatment, again.
It still doesn't change impression o me though, that harmony Spike has the better image and character appearance. I favor his general behaviour over the other one.
I'd still like to know what Celestia is planning anyway.
After her explicit example of "justified [absolute inhuman] torture" and the loss of her sister, I can't believe she would not exploit P.Twilight's trust, who is more sane then her counterpart anyway, because this Celestia is much more loco in the moco then P.Twilight's Celestia, but still knows how to decieve her prized student.
Also she is hurting like hell over her sisters death.
The whole "revive my sister" plot sounds like she is just trying to get Luna back, but doesn't know what else to do afterwards to aid P.Twilight, or simply can't because of the bad unicorn Twilight.
That sapient tomato being devoured by bunnies is some existential horror. Pretty sure the price to raise Luna is Twilight's death. This story is so gripping and I can't wait to see how it turns out!
6864327 You do know, I enjoy you replies to other people a lot. I am actually learning a thing or more from you and you unique way of seeing and explaining things! Rock on!
" I have a use for Twilight's counterpart, and so long as she agrees to help me, I see no reason why any of her companions should be harmed. "
Sooooo, so long as Twilight disagrees no matter the issue, then by reverse logic she will be harmed? Yep, this Celestia has gone off the deep end. Can't believe I did not scrutinize her letter earlier. NIn fact, this is not choice, this is a classical negotiation technique: Condition for the other party to to something always comes first before your own offer to do something for the other party. Notice also how she states that Celestia does not refer to Harmony Twi as Twi. She says Opposition Twi's counterpart, not Princess Twi, not Twi, just counterpart. That little fact feels like degrading of Harmony Twilight and does not feel like recognises her as a person to me. Harmony Twilight is merely, ah, Opposition Twilight's counterpart. And she is viewed through Opposition Twilight's lens.
Then the second worrying phrase " use for Twilight's counterpart". My beef is with the word "use". Why does she not refer to her as Twilight and state that she is going to help them or something of that manner? A lot of ways her phrasing could go and this is what we see. The fact that both are in one phrase are starting to scare me actually, in addition to that other statement about harm.
Oh, this Celestia is a politician alright. And a sleazy one. She is desperate, I think, with many losses serving as a motivation. Notice how she also words the original sentence.
Celestia blatantly stated that Harmony Twi's friends will not come to harm so long as she agrees. There is no friggin' reference by Celestia on same safety umbrella extending to Harmony Twi, if you pay attention. By same logic then it is obvious that Harmony Twilight is not insured against harm and, if the above is correct, she probably will come to harm later on. The word "use" in singular also possibly gives Celestia's plan away. Surely an alicorn would serve many uses due to her power and knowledge, not one, yet this is what we get. Twilight will probably be of use alright, as an integral ingredient in Luna's ressurrection with a one-way ticket to 6 feet under or as the case is Pinkie's cupcake batter ingredient, should Opposition Celestia have her way with her. Just because Celestia stated she will not execute Twilight, does not preclude other grim deaths, namely...sacrifice!!! It is ALL a play on words, where the wording gives the game away. In my belief at least. I think some people might glaze this over also, because of Opposition Spike's happiness...however, deceived happiness. I think Celestia misled Spike and because of his young naivete he was deceived. She merely reassured his fear with a carefully worded letter, which is more worrying to a more cynic eye. What also may have helped is that Spike is highly stressed, this blinded him, which made him seek "fast" reassurance from the letter, leaving other facts unnoticed, glaring facts which vould have come to light had he bothered to reread in a measured, calm way. Much like skip-reading the new chapter of a favourite story fast, without sinking in too deeply. So Spike essentially was deceived and deceived himself.
I am legitimately scared for Harmony Twilight. I hope she looks out for the danger that this Celestia represents. Twilight is damn smart and should think well about things here. How I hope once she is left to her devices, she will realise things! She already did with keeping her view on Discord's torture methods, despite Celestia almost swaying her belief. That takes guts! I am proud of her already for this.
6860891 I whole-heartedly agree with you. You raise legitimate points.
I wrote a comment with a closer scrutinity to what Opposition Celestia states in her letter to Spike.I found worrying things, enough to label Celestia a danger, enemy even. Taking her behavior, attitide in this universe, the letter in fact gives reason to distrust Celestia to the maximum. She, might be weakened, but a dangerous emotional baggage with personal, highly motivated agenda to "fix" things. Plus, she has Chrysalis in her posse, if this is not a red flag, I don't know what else is.
6869443 If twilight really has to sacrifice herself, then Celestia can go eat cat poop for all I care, and so should Twilight think, alias "you shittin' me? After all you've done to an innocent discord, our friend, you dare proposing to sacrifice me just for getting Luna back?"
6881230 I know right? The sad thing is just, it's so easy to see how even now, considering this is an emotionally, physically weakened Celestia with a wacky wicked sense for what is righteous, in order to justify her behavior and extremely miserable grieving, she is still clever enough to trick P.Twilight and manipulate her yet again to do exactly what she desires.
And even worse is that the naive P.Twilight is falling for it "because it's her idol Celestia', why would she lie to her?"
And in return, crazy Celestia will probably do dodo for P.Twilight and her friends. As soon as she'd get Luna back, she'll be all "You know, do with this world what you want elements, I'm going to the 'Sun Bunker' with my sis. Help? I don't care, sorry, can't help you defeat bad Twilight anyway so forget that, but thanks for doing me a favor and giving me my sister back, farewell." Then she and Luna are gone from the face of that planet in just a blink.
Or at least, I feel some response similar to this will most likely be given by her highness... a highness having reached her newest low point.
That's how I expect her to have derailed from her 'good' ways, unfortunately since way to many bad things have happened in short succession to her, one event throwing harder punches to her head then others.
Only now is this starting to remind me of Star Trek: Voyager's 'Death Wish'. Huh. That's awesome!
SO FREAKING BADASS! How do you make these so perfect?! TELL ME YOUR METHODS!
6853456 Now is not the time to fear... that comes later...
What they're doing... ain't just a bad thing, it's a stupid thing. He ever gets loose, there'll be all Tartarus to pay."
Well at least Big Mac gets why it's a stupid idea to torture a god of chaos.
I don't like Celestia's plan. There's many ways it could go wrong. Luna coming back as Nightmare moon, as a rotting zombie, or Twilight getting sacrificed.
Though I wonder. If opposition Discord is dead than why hasn't there been anothe chaos avatar to replace him? Does it work differently in that dimension?
...she's going to kill Twilight to review Luna.
Is that a rhetorical question?
9355945
I'd give luna a Ten outtta teeeeennnn
slight miscalculation on your part- royal guards are male for intimidation. equestria is a matriarchy, so males would probably take lower priority in jobs where they have to be effective
11615688
I have actually studied gender differences in multiple societies, and matriarchies are perfectly capable of deciding that men should be the soldiers because they're bigger and more expendable. The difference between a matriarchy and a patriarchy isn't going to be who are the soldiers -- it will still usually be men -- but how soldiers are thought of.
If a filly is discouraged from joining the army because she's not good enough, that's very different from her being discouraged because she's too good to stoop to a job like that.
Notice that the assumption boils down to "You shouldn't be in the military, but if you are in the military, you're elite and not stuck with ceremonial guarding duties when you could be doing the real important work." Kind of like how, in our society, cooking is women's work unless you're a chef, and if you're a chef then you're elite and better at cooking than women are (not that this is true, but it's how society sees it.)