Once, Twice, Thrice
“So, with your help, I figure these should be done in no time.” Starlight smiled at the assembled row of five as she shuffled through her note cards. Each of the girls casting her a dubious glance of their own variety. The day was off to a questionable start. The five girls had been called to the castle by Starlight, all invited to spend the day with her as a part of her friendship lessons from Twilight.
“Are you sure this is what Twilight would want?” Applejack looked Starlight over worriedly, “Seems like you might wanna take your time with each of these. I mean, there’s kinda a lot to do, Starlight. If anypony here knows about stretchin’ themselves too thin, its me.” She chuckled softly.
“But by working as a team, we can get them done faster.” Starlight raised her hoof to make the point that made perfect sense to her, “And isn’t teamwork a key factor in friendship?”
“Ah...guess?” Applejack shared a glance with Rarity, not entirely sure of how to approach this. Twilight had learned her lessons on friendship from experience, trial and error. Quite a bit of error, one may add, but nonetheless she had learned from the hooves on experience. The ex-cult leader had only really been on the receiving end of a few Twilight Sparkle Friendship Lectures™ thus far and had little to show for it, but hey, maybe this would turn out fine?
“Super!”
They were going to die this day.
“Pinkie Pie! Since we’re baking, you’ll be in the kitchen.” Starlight turned to the mare, saddlebags bursting with party supplies.
The Ponk gasped, as she does at the topic of confectioneries, cheeks puffing up to comical proportions.
Starlight pivoted, moving over to the farmhand and seamstress, “Rarity, Applejack, you two can set up in the library-” Her orders and gesture were cut off by a worried disagreement from Rarity.
“Oh! I don’t know that a dusty old library has the proper lighting! Perhaps we can stay out here in the foyer?” Rarity smiled a little, hoping that if she couldn’t do her work in her actual work place, she could at least commit to a more comparable environment.
After Starlight was sure Twilight wasn’t going to burst through a wall, demanding satisfaction for the defamation of her books, she continued, “I thought that Fluttershy and I could work with the animals right here in the foyer.” Starlight's expression grew a little worried, but she kept her smile up as she switched targets and walked over to the mare in question.
“Oh, um, whatever you think is best.” Fluttershy nodded. Starlight still scared her a bit, well everything scared Fluttershy a bit, but a pony that kidnapped and tried to brainwash her was a bit higher on that list than most other things.
“Greaaat.” Starlight looked up, “Now, Rainbow Dash?”
Rainbow Dash looked down a little boredly, having been watching this as such since it had started. Now, Rainbow wasn’t exactly the sharpest bolt from the cloud, but anyone can learn from repetition, and Dash was already seeing a Twilight-scale meltdown in their impending future. She repressed a sigh, knowing Twilight would smack her around with a lecture or two if she didn’t give Starlight a chance. ‘Again.’ Rainbow added on petulantly.
However before Starlight could continue, Fluttershy broke back into the conversation. “But it might depend on the animal. For instance, this poor little eagle with a sprained wing might be better off in one of the towers...or..are they branches?” She paused, looking upwards. It was a giant tree after all.
“Yeah yeah yeah, sure.” Starlight brushed her off without a second thought, trying to move on again, only to look back with an annoyed expression when Fluttershy continued.
“And these adorable chipmunks might prefer a nook somewhere.” The buttery mare smiled sweetly, petting the furry critters, “Maybe if you took some time getting to know-”
“In a minute, Fluttershy!” She cut her off, wanting to switch topics as quickly as possible. This of course earned a hurt look from the other mare, looking down in disappointment.
Okay, that ticked Dash off a little bit. Not enough to say something, but certainly enough to add onto the pile, “Eh, I dunno if we can chillax properly in the castle. We need very specific conditions for optimal chillaxing.” She shrugged down at Starlight, getting a bewildered expression in return. Rainbow, of course, was absolutely talking out of her flank. Rainbow ‘Danger’ Dash had the unique ability to chillax anywhere and anytime she wanted, regardless of her locale.
“Ohhhh. I just assumed chillaxing could happen anywhere.” Oh dear, she was on to her! Quick! Distract. Distract!
“Heh! Shows what you know about chillaxing.” Dash responded, poking her in the chest with a smirk. The surprised look showed that she had thoroughly confused her. “Lemme do some location scouting!” She darted out of the building to hide the mischievous grin. Rainbow soared high above the castle’s spire, setting down on a cloud overlooking the area. She stretched her wings and shook them out with a groan. There was just something about Starlight she really didn’t like. It was probably her past of massive transgressions built on a crumbling platform of petty reasons, but it wasn’t exactly Rainbow’s place to judge someone with royal immunity.
Dash scoffed, flopping back on her temporary perch, ‘Maybe I should just stay up here, let them all figure things out down there. Starlight looked ready to crack under the pressure and retreat for a bit. Might be for the best.’ She hummed, ‘...course then Twilight would skewer me with the friendship speech later. Decisions decisions.’ The blue mare tossed her options back and forth for awhile before blowing out a breath, “Princess of Lectures is worse.” She rolled back into a sitting position and grabbed a few nearby clouds, ‘Thunderlane can thank me later. One less patch of sky he has to deal with.’ Rainbow of course didn’t need any actual supplies for chillaxing, but Starlight was bound to lay into her with questions if she didn’t return with any form of supplies.
Taking her sweet sweet time, Dash landed on a balcony and walked back into the castle, looking inside and seeing Starlight still trying to bark out orders to the remaining four. Everyone was lined up now for some reason. Instead of giving more complaints though, and trying to urge her to slow down, the four darted off in different directions. Each of them began to do exactly as Starlight had asked them to, all in freaky robotic mannerisms, their pupils shrunk and...Rainbow was feeling freaked out at this point.
As everyone left, Starlight closed her eyes in a self satisfied smile, beginning to walk after Pinkie towards the kitchen. Between Starlight’s track record and her insistence on doing things her way a moment ago, it didn’t take her long to put two and two together on what Starlight had done.
Starlight was about to open the door to the kitchen when she heard a loud whistling approaching her from the other direction. She turned around, expecting to see Dash flying in behind her, “Hey, Da-” Being tackled through the door of the kitchen was not what she expected.
The wooden door buckled from the impact as two flew right through and crashed Glimmer first into the crystalline wall at the far end of the kitchen. The sudden impact knocked the wind out of Starlight, taking a gasp of air as she slid to the floor, Rainbow backing off for the moment, “I knew you were still trouble!” the mare looked over and grabbed something from the counter, right out of Pinkie’s grasp. The earth pony didn’t notice, continuing to make motions with the now missing rolling pin.
“Wait, Dash! I’m so-!” That’s all Starlight could get out before her head rattled and her world went black.
“Well for starters, Princess.” Dr Horse began, “For all the head trauma your friend received, I must say, her horn looks perfectly fine. No cracks, no damage, nothing. Magic backlash and the like won’t be an issue.” He assured.
“Well, at least there's that.” Twilight sighed, looking over at her student who was passed out on the medical bed beside her, “Any idea when she’ll be waking up?”
“She shouldn’t be out much longer. That cooking utensil only caused a concussion it seemed, nothing too serious to worry about. Though there’s no direct place she was hit - or say, nowhere in particular, besides her horn, that she wasn’t hit - I’d prepare for any mixture of spots in her vision, disorientation, light sensitivity, sleep disruptions, depression, nausea, ear ringing, and definitely a few headaches. Her mind’s surely been bruised and needs time to heal.”
“Wowza.” Spike said from Twilight’s back, “Sounds like Rainbow Dash really went to town.”
“...Celestia.” Twilight breathed. “...That’s a lot of symptoms.”
“Hey, the mind’s important.” The doctor replied.
“She would know.” Spike knocked on Twilight’s head with a chuckle.
“Well, yes, and so should someone else we know.” Twilight mumbled to Spike. “Spike! I need you to watch over Starlight for me. ...There’s a certain someone I need to talk to.” With a nod, Twilight walked out into the waiting room where the rest of her friends were waiting, 4 of the 5 holding ice packs to their heads and sunglasses over their eyes.
“I feel like sunshine…” Pinkie mumbled dizzily.
“Well tha’s great for you, sugarcube. ‘Cause I feel like someone stuck a plow in mah ear!” Applejack groaned, setting the ice pack on her head and dropping her hat over it.
“Hey girls, how’s everyone?” Twilight asked, offering Rarity another bag of ice to replace her old one.
“Simply dreadful, darling…” Rarity sighed softly.
“I know. ...A sudden jolt out of a mind control spell is never a good way to go.” She sent a pointed look at Dash.
Rainbow met her look with one of her own and crossed forehooves, setting her magazine aside, “Yeah, because leaving them under would be a great idea.”
“I’m not condoning putting them under one in the first place, but I’m not condoning violence to my student either!” Twilight exclaimed, “What in Celestia’s name got into you, Dash?!”
“What’s gotten into me? What’s gotten into you?!” She stood up, getting in Twilight’s face.
“R-Rainbow, is this r-really the ti-?” Fluttershy gulped, eyes wide as she more or less knew what was coming. Rainbow had complained about it in private to her enough.
“No! I’m gonna say this, because apparently the pony that lived in a library didn’t have enough logic to notice this herself!” Dash shook her head, glaring back at Twilight fiercely.
“What are you talking about?! She made a mistake, Dash! I’ve made a similar mistake before!” Twilight argued.
“That was different! We had known you for like a year and we knew you were a good pony! Starlight’s a crazy cult leader that’s hypnotized ponies before!” She gestured past her into the hospital, “Mistakes are forgetting a birthday! Scheduling a storm on the wrong day! She purposefully cast a spell to hypnotize us! I woulda gone under too if I hadn’t been outside!”
“I had no idea she would do this to you all, but it’s Starlight, she clearly doesn’t know that’s okay! ...Somehow.”
“Yeah! Just like how she didn’t know that stopping the Elements of Harmony bearers from meeting would send the world into like 7 different kinds of jeopardy?!” Dash growled, “Twilight, you let a freaking sociopath into your house and now she’s playing with our brains to try and skip out on your dumb lessons!”
“...She was trying to skip out on my friendship lessons?” Was what Twilight decided to focus on out of that sentence.
“Starlight decided it would be easier to spend time with each of us if she ordered us all to commit to our plans in her way.” Rarity sighed.
“Kinda like speed friendshipping.” Pinkie noted.
“...That’s not how that’s supposed to work.” Twilight muttered. “Still, Dash, even with everything she’s done; violence isn’t the answer!” She exclaimed.
“Wasn’t violence the answer with Sombra, Chrysalis, and Tirek?” Rainbow deadpanned back, “And I think a magic battle across time and space with Starlight also counts as violence.”
“They were way bigger threats than Starlight was! I was able to handle her without the Elements, and unlike the other three, it didn’t end in violence! Starlight chose to come back and study under me. Tell me right now that if I walked up to Tirek and asked to teach him about spending quality time with friends, he’d completely accept my offer!”
“Even if Starlight herself was a smaller threat as a pony, she almost destroyed Equestria multiple times! Technically, she DID destroy it!” Dash fired back, “Well at this rate, who knows? We’ve reformed half the villains we fought, what’s one more?” She shrugged, laughing, “What was Starlight’s reasoning for almost breaking time again?”
The other four were looking away at this point. Things were getting heated between the two friends and none of them wanted to be caught in the crossfire.
Twilight stamped her hoof, “It doesn’t matter, Dash! She asked for my forgiveness, and I took her in; she doesn’t know about friendship and most social norms, so it’s my responsibility to set her straight! This was a bump in the road that will leave the girls with some minor discomfort for a few days, but will teach Starlight a lesson! And you felt the need to pummel her worse than any of them will feel today!”
Dash flinched towards Twilight for a moment, snarling at her, “Do not chastise me for this! She attacked my friends and I responded in kind! She tried this before, can you blame me for thinking she was doing it again? Twilight, she’s crazy!”
“She’s not crazy, she’s misguided! She needs our group to help steer her in the right direction!” Twilight narrowed her eyes.
“No.” Dash shook her head, “She needs your help.”
“I can’t do this alone; she needs to see a healthy example!”
“Oh because that’s exactly what I’d use to describe this right now. A healthy example." Dash shook her head, “The town, the timeline, now this? Once? Shame on you. Twice? Shame on me. Thrice? There isn't supposed to be a third time! Forget it, Twilight. You’re my friend, I love you to death, but I am done here. Starlight’s your student, do whatever you want with her, but for Celestia’s sake, keep me out of it!”
“Fine then!” Twilight bit back, “Considering this is what’s at stake for keeping you in this; feel free!”
Dash nodded, frown on her face, “That’s all there is to say then.” She gave a flap of her wings, jetting back a few feet to the table with Fluttershy, simply going back to her flight magazine. The other girls shuffled in their seats, looking away still.
Twilight huffed, “...I need some fresh air.” She muttered, moving to leave.
“U-um...Twilight?” Fluttershy piped up, catching her attention before she left.
“Yeah, Fluttershy?” Twilight asked, moving a little closer to her.
“Can...you not leave us, um, alone with Starlight again?” She tapped her hooves together, regretting it immediately as she rushed the ice pack back to her head.
“...Yeah.” Twilight sighed, ears drooping, “I won’t let her be alone with you all again.”
“Th-thank you.” She groaned, nodding, “Oh dear, I may be like this for the rest of the day. I hope the little critters don’t mind.”
“I’m sure they’ll be okay.” Twilight nodded, before making her way out like earlier. ‘...Starlight really blew it with this.’ She shook her head in thought, ‘As angry as I am with her wanting to skip out on her friendship lessons; I need my head clear to give her the lecture on why ‘hypnotising your friends to do exactly what you want instead of compromising’ isn’t okay. ...Dash was right, though. She’s done some things under my tutelage - and even before that - that I needed to be firmer on. We can’t have something like this happening again…’
Twilight walked back into the hospital, fully intending on getting her student to apologise to their friends as soon as she awoke from her concussion. She thought this was going to be a long day; now, it wasn’t just because of the summit.
She had lectures to deliver.
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You're not really gonna end it like that, are you?
8257077
Its open to interpretation. Presented two arguments. Neither is technically wrong.
No, Dash, it wasn't. In the past, Twilight was having a problem, you didn't take it seriously, and it spiraled wildly out of control.
In the present, Starlight was having a problem, you didn't take it seriously, and it spiraled wildly out of control. The only difference is that with Starlight, you knew that something was likely to happen, and knew that it would have deleterious effects on everyone around Starlight, and you didn't do anything to try and stop it. It would have been a small matter to just wait for everyone else to leave, and then talk to Starlight privately and coach her through her crisis, but you couldn't be bothered because stopping a meltdown before it started was less important than avoiding a lecture from Twilight that you could have very easily shut down the instant it started.
Twilight may have created the conditions that caused this to happen, and Starlight may have caused it to happen, but you allowed it to happen: All three of you are to blame for this mess.
To be honest I prefer this to what happened in canon. Sometimes you need a harsh lesson. It would have made Starlights 'redemption' arc more palatable if it had a few more bumps in the road like one of the 6 didn't forgive her right away if at all. Rainbow or Applejack were the ones i'd see as most likly to blow up at Starlight so while this is marked complete I'd love to see what happens next.
8257111you want to play technical cards here? twilight overstepped her bounds and authority pardoning starlight to begin with, shall we count the charges? mass murder multiple counts, treason multiple counts, pretty sure messing with time has a law against it somewhere. frankly dash wasn't hard enough on starlight.
8257206
As far as we know Twilight might have near-unlimited power as a Princess
No one except Twilight Sparkle and Spike are aware of any possible crimes related to Starlight attempting to change the past. As far as Twilight's friends are concerned, it didn't happen except as a thought experiment. Rainbow Dash never experienced the alternative timelines. She didn't experience losing a wing while fighting against Sombra, or being a leader for Nightmare Moon, and so on.
And even if you could prove that such things happened, you can't prove stuff via butterfly effect. In each instance, Starlight changed history via stopping the Rainboom from occurring, but the consequences of that spiraled vastly out of control, and were quite different from each other. I don't think you can really hold anyone accountable for those kind of changes that occur long after an initial action if there is no direct chain of causation visible. Besides, almost all of the issues were caused by disasters caused by others, not by Starlight's actions. Rather, all she did was remove the counter to the disasters, and she didn't even know the results of her meddling until the last timeline, and then she gave up upon seeing her results.
>that title
You've got good taste in music, my friend. Damn, now I'm gonna go listen to a bunch of The Police's albums.
Dash being that violently impulsive is already a giant problem with this accusation fic.
Then there is trying to rationalize away Twilight's Want It Need It. Just no. She tried to mind control three little children because of a late paper. An action that was bad enough from the start but spiraled into something so much worse that it got Celestia off her throne and to teleport down to Ponyville.
Yeah. She didn't know that you guys were sleeping with destiny so hard that apparently everyone else in Equestria is completely incomptent and can't pick up the slack without you. (Nevermind it's kind of bullshit that literally every timeline ends up in disaster without you 6 around).
No it wasn't. If you're allowed to say she technically destroyed Equestria several times then no violence was not the answer in each of these solutions.
Because Twilight and her friends came to our town and broke up her town and decided as revenge to break up their friendship. I already know what you're going for and if Sunburst was her reasoning she wouldn't have needed the girls to come to Our Town in the first place to do this.
This fic basically shows the type of people that should stay away from Rehabilitation and Rehab people. Because you clearly don't understand how habits, relapses and people work. People don't just say, "I'm going to be a good person", flip a switch and literally everything negative about them changes and goes away.
I really want to be rainbow dash right now. She just lived my dream of bashing starlight's face in
No, not lectures! Anything but lectures!
Hello everyone! Thanks for reading this one-shot.
If you don't mind, I want to discuss Starlight here in both her strengths and flaws. I know a lot of the Starlight fans are disappointed by the fic, and I understand. It's hard to see a character you love being the center of the negative discussion.
But here's the thing: Starlight's a character who was put into the show at a bad time, with a bad redemption to boot. Personally, I think she has a lot of potential, but she falls short when it comes to the show's morals. This idea of instant forgiveness isn't something that's realistic, and the implications of it mean Starlight could just do something like this again.
8257111
Rainbow's not perfect here. She was never meant to be the one in the right completely. Nor is Twilight, and definitely not Starlight.
8257300
As I said, you're taking it as if Rainbow was meant to be the saint here, she's not. It was an impulse move, and she got a verbal lashing for it. The problem this fic presents about Starlight is that she's not getting the proper punishments for her actions, not the fact that she does them in the first place. At the least, I'm glad the show is able to attempt to paint someone who's flawed enough to make these kinds of mistakes, it does make Starlight interesting. But those large mistakes demand major consequences. You have to remember that during the "Want It, Need It" incident, Twilight was given an actual punishment: Celestia was about to pull her from Ponyville had the mane 6 not stepped up and voiced their own blame in the events.
8257081
Consequently, neither are technically right.
8257217
So unlimited power means Twilight can do whatever she wants, whenever she wants, to whomever she wants? Sounds pretty tyrannical to me.
8257503
Exactly. It's why we discuss it.
Okay first, upvote from me for title alone, it's awesome. Wish I could leave a second one for the rest of the story.
Though I'm pretty sure people are going to immediately hate this because Starlight's kind of a victim here even though she did some pretty heinous things to deserve this. You can't really blame Dash for doing what she did considering Starlight's done this kind of thing before and looking at it from the outside, things did look pretty fucking bad here. Dash would be the kind of pony to still be distrustful. Either her or Applejack. I like this.
8257476
It's been over 6 seasons and people are still complaining about "characters no getting consequences". It doesn't happen in this series. Any consequences that are handed out are given by the magic of ancient relic of mass power, not by the actual characters themselves. They are a forgiveness and rehabilitation based society. Not a punishment based one. And it has worked out for them. Rarely do people get them, ever and half the time it doesn't work out.
It's why Luna after being sealed in prison for 1,000 years, who breaks out, and does the exact same thing that got her sent away the first gets off just by saying "I'm Sorry" and then is handed the keys to the kingdom, because Equestria doesn't do punishments if they can help it.
And wow, a verbal reprimand for such violence. We're talking about punishments and that's all Rainbow Dash gets for excessive violence from the way it's presented?
And you're still trying to rationalize away Twilight Sparkle's WINI. Oh she was going to get one but never did. And the Mane 6's blame in this? Please. They didn't take her quite frankly stupid reason for going unhinged not seriously. Like they should. It's a pretty stupid reason for trying to mind control children.
Really?
8257559
Ah, yes. That's because it's a big problem in the show overall. We complain about it for a reason. Still, Nightmare's punishment was the Elements. It clearly hurt her, and drained her of her power. Had she not been sorry, Celestia would've had to have done something else with her. That's still a punishment, as well as losing 1,000 years of her life.
That's another problem... Equestrian society doesn't know what Starlight did. At all. Her town was completely unknown by basically everyone, and as someone else pointed out, only Spike and Twilight know what she did while trying to split up the mane 6's group. So they'd just treat her like everyone else. I don't think they'd immediately trust Tirek like that. Besides... We all saw how this "society" dealt with Discord. Twilight's still sore about him.
Well, we still have to keep Twilight in character. I can rationalize Dash resorting to a drastic action due to history repeating itself, but Twilight's never really been one to take a cheap shot. She's the forgiving one. I imagine the aftermath of this as Starlight not being too open to forgiving Dash, either. In Rainbow's eyes, this was defense. She saw that Starlight had willingly mind-controlled four of her friends with a smile on her face. For all Dash knew, she was next.
Ah yes, Twilight Paranoia Sparkle. Just as Dash could've simply taken the time to stop Starlight and explained the moral implications of her actions here, the mane 6 could've seen that their friend was very well losing it, and called Celestia and/or a mental ward. But they didn't. Celestia's appearance and disappointment was enough to punish Sparkle in this instance, and would've received worse had the full thing not been explained to Celestia.
Absolutely.
8257503
Precisely
8257594
Except it's not a problem with the show. It's a problem with the complainers because you guys can't accept that Equestria is not real life. It's a cartoon. Made for children. About pastel colored horses. Realism went out the window 5 minutes into the start of the show when we saw a a purple talking unicorn with a small talking purple dragon as her assistant and went downhill from there in terms of realism as we learned they move their sun and moon and control their weather.
Equestria is an idealized world and they can do that because it is a cartoon and if real life American Incarceration/Justice System is any example, no wonder they chose to idealize Equestria's system.
You're basically complaining that their system isn't ours and therefore it's a problem.
And how exactly is this a problem? Why does Equestrian society need to know what Starlight did? So they can constantly remind her of how what she did was wrong even more so than Spike does and how she does it to herself? The people who need to know about it all do.
And Twilight's sore about Discord because he's an ass. Not because of what he did in the past.
This isn't rationalizing Dash. This is flanderization of her character. This what the fandom loves to do. Take what she did in Dragonshy. Ignore the fact that she at least waited until all her friends tried their methods first before she did what she does and believe Rainbow Dash resorts to violence immediately every time. It's a horrible cliche in fanfics that needs to die.
How can someone want realism but then proceed to pass off what happened to Luna and Twilight as punishment.
Celestia showing up with anger and disappointment and then proceeding to do nothing but tell her that she doesn't have to write one every week a punishment for what she did? She mind controlled children. And not even for a good reason. If we're talking about realism, Twilight Sparkle would be suffering consequences.
Luna got no consequences for her return as Nightmare Moon. She said I'm sorry and got handed the keys to the kingdom. She got rewarded more than she got punished. The 1,000 years is punishment for her doing it the first time. If we want it to be realistic then she would catch even worse punishment for breaking out and doing the exact same thing a second time.
If these are to be considered punishments, then Starlight being forced to apologize and seeing her friends angry at her should be enough as her punishment.
8257300
8257669
So... Because it's a show for children, we should hold it to a lower standard? Yet, here we are, discussing and defending it as if it were realistic.
I never brought our justice system into this discussion, at all. I was talking about basic psychology, and how the mind works. This is also how characters are based and designed, so it's worth bringing up. Besides, why would we idolize a system that seals villains into ice/stone/the moon for 1000 years?
It's a problem, because, as you said yourself:
How can they rehabilitate someone they don't know is at fault for something? It's Twilight's job, sure, but like any parental figure, someone could shove off lessons as nagging. (Which is exactly what she did in this episode, actually.) They need to see it in action for it to really stick.
...And Starlight is a perfect angel? She can be blunt. She can realize that she's hurting someone and do it anyways. And yes, Twilight is still very sore about Discord's past. That's what "Keep Calm and Flutter On" was all about, and how she still judged him in "What About Discord?".
The first thing she said regarding the town in "The Cutie Map: Part 1" was: "I bet there's some sort of horrific monster behind it... 'Cause fighting a horrific monster would be super-awesome!"
She even groans after realizing that there wasn't a monster to beat up later on.
So... Yeah. She's not flanderized, this is actually how Dash is presented. She's a mare of action, not words.
I also never said that the episode itself didn't give her a punishment. It did. This is simply an alternate take on it. Problem is that other episodes don't even try to reprimand her.
I just said that. She did. She spent at least half a season depowered, and society didn't take her well at first ("Luna Eclipsed"), on top of the elements' initial pain. Besides, the second time around, she didn't do as much, so it didn't require as drastic a punishment.
Because at the least, they were told or shown what they did was wrong, and faced their consequences. Something Starlight was shown, but then instantly forgiven for. I will give you this, though: Perhaps Celestia was too soft on Twilight after WINI, but she didn't pass on anything harsher after realizing that Twilight and the girls learned from the experience, and there were preventative measures in place for it not happening again. ...Did that happen at all in "The Cutie Remark"? Did Twilight know for a fact that Starlight wouldn't repeat history?
8257669
It would be less of a problem if the show did it consistently, but it doesn't. It's not always sunshine and rainbooms - if it was, it wouldn't have this fanbase. When somepony makes a mistake, there are consequences for others. When the moral of an episode is about owning up to your mistakes, there are even consequences for the ponies who made the mistake (see Ponyville Confidential, or Discord in Twilight’s Kingdom, for example)... but when the moral is about something else, it tends to be brushed off in favor of highlighting that moral. And that's why we write these kinds of stories.
I agree that Equestria at large doesn’t need to know what happened with Starlight. But her (inofficial?) parole officers do, as do the Princesses. And ponies in general deserve to know and should know that there's a reason Starlight lives with Twilight suddenly... not just to judge her, but also so they know how to approach her. If their society is half as forgiving as you say, she'll find lots of friends even when they know that she's had a checkered past, so to say.
You do realize that the only one left to try 'her method' before Rainbow was Starlight, and you can't really expect her to wait for that given what the situation looked - and was - like.
You can't complain about Starlight suffering actual consequences in this story, and complain about Twilight not suffering consequences in the same comment. Decide on one, at least.
But to humor you... Twilight was threatened with punishment, but her friends stepped up for her and vouched for her, just like Twilight did for Starlight after The Cutie Re-Mark. That doesn't mean that the ponies in town didn't gain a healthy respect of her that day; in a lot of stories just mentioning the incident is served as counterpoint to Twilight when she claims not to use her magic irresponsibly. And most of those times, even Twilight begrudgingly admits that they're not exactly wrong, even if the situation is different.
A case of lavender unicorn syndrome and use of fan nicknames that none of the characters would know or use, impressive.
And this dialogue sounds about as natural coming from Rainbow as her violent outburst did, as in not natural at all.
Again, sounds nothing like Rainbow Dash. Might be the wording the author likes to use for this mouthpiece version of Dash though.
This has the same issues all accusation fics have. There isn't much of a story here, or much in the way of canon personalities. It's just the author complaining about something while using a character as a puppet. Hell, this story should be more offensive to Rainbow Dash fans than Starlight fans considering poor Rainbow is the one used as the puppet, and it just randomly throws in violent outbursts to her personality.
8257751
1) The "systems" doesn't seal away those beings for 1,000. I believe I stated it before but the things that did that were the ancient magical relics of power.
2) Yes, we should be holding it to a "lower" standard because it is a children's cartoon. Not holding the way the characters act and react to unreasonable higher standards. The characters are also made in a way that they believe will appeal to children. So idealized and cartoonish ways. Not cracking open a psychology book.
3) Equestrian society is more forgiveness and rehabilitation based but that doesn't mean literally all of Equestrian society is rehabilitating her. One of the entire reasons the Maud/Starlight friendship kicked off was because Maud wasn't judging her for her pass actions and reminding her how she fucked up, just like Starlight wasn't judging Maud for being so different from everyone else.
4) Starlight is her student. Discord is not. KCaFO is literally the first episode with Discord back. Of course there are going to be sore feeling there for someone she didn't even plan to take on as a student compared to Season 6 Twilight, the Princess of Friendship with someone she sympathized with. What About Discord involved him going out of his way to make her feel as excluded as possible and to push Twilight's button. A person who doesn't deal with having her buttons pushed very well.
5) Your basis for Rainbow Dash being so violently impulsive that she's completely willing to beat someone unnecessarily into unconsciousness is because she was upset she didn't get a fight a giant monster?
...what?
6) This is a worse alternate take then if you think flanderizing Rainbow Dash into being that violent, Twilight into being an idiot and having someone beat into unconsciousness is an OK outcome for My Little Pony. And what other episodes? We're sitting here talking about this one.
7) Season 1 to the start of Season 4 was a year canonically. She spent at most a couple months depowered and it wasn't like they were purposely withheld from her. They didn't even stated when she got her powers back exactly so for all you know she got them back a couple days later. Still overlooking that at the end of the day she got handed the keys to the kingdom back immediately after the NMM incident was over. Any pretend consequences are drowned out by the rewards she got.
7b) If you are going to try to use the "She wasn't accepted back", then Luna Eclipsed is the worst possible example. Consider she showed on on the holiday night in which the entire purpose is to be scared, particularly by her alter-ego, there was a miscommunication as she didn't even understand the holiday with Pinkie riling people up (not understanding the Luna was not in on the "joke"), and her entrance and mannerisms (Royal Voice) were intimidating as hell. Of course the episode looks like they didn't accept her back.
8) Except they faced nothing for what they did wrong. They were instantly forgiven for what they did like Starlight. Applejack and Rarity instantly forgave Twilight even though she intently mind controlled their little sisters.
Please tell me there is (or there is going to be) a sequel to this story.
8257836
If I wanted to trumpet my opinions, I wouldn't have defended Starlight at all.
8257857
Not really. A sequel would defeat the purpose of leaving it open instead of flat out condemning Starlight
8257849
Thank you for debating with me, but I'm growing tired of this for now. I have my own stories to write, after all.
I'll finish this out with a few points, but not all of them, as I'd be repeating myself.
1) Using these relics is still a choice. After using it twice, Celestia has an idea of what using the Elements means. She allows this to happen anyways.
2) I'm not talking impossible standards here, nor am I suggesting that the show should resort to violence to solve problems. It's simply frustrating for those of us that study writing and characters to see a show aimed at teaching good morals to young girls miss the most basic one of all. One that, mind you, is incredibly easy to portray. They did it in this episode, as I said. You can still be smart, and put it down to a child's level. Look at the first two seasons of Spongebob for example.
3) I never claimed the whole of Equestria should know; I agree with you on that. But like River said, the main 6 and the princesses should, because it happened.
4) Even so, her first thought was "He's hypnotizing them!", which isn't true. At all. Yes, Discord's a jerk to her because she's a stick in the mud, but it's not something he would do at that point in time.
5 + 6) You're missing the point here. It is in her character to be impulsive and confrontational. It's not just Dragonshy, as you claimed. It's been all throughout the series. And yes, we're talking about Rainbow's character in this one by referencing the past.
7) Alright, I might as well say this. "Keys to the Kingdom" includes... An empty night court, other ponies' dreams, and no civilian or ambassador responsibilities without Celestia at her side. Luna was on her own parole. And, yes, no one told her about the holiday that was based entirely on fearing her as a whole. There's also another holiday devoted to defeating her. Joke or not, all of Equestria has been taught that Luna used to be a villain.
8257849
8257849
By the way, since you're so against "Lesson Zero"; I'd love to see your interpretation on it. You're well-spoken, I imagine a story from you would be a good use of your time.
8257836
Lavender Unicorn syndrome is only a problem if you use it excessively to the point of confusion.
Not sure I quite buy into the actions of various characters here, but there's a solid point behind it all. Considering that, since her decision to "reform", Starlight has:
1). Altered Big Mac to fit her preference of a more talkative personality.
2). Mind controlled the Mane Five to behave as she wanted them to for the purposes of dodging/rushing through her "Friendship Lessons" (literally the only penance that was ever asked of her.)
3). Bottled up her emotions, then lost control of them and saw them completely overcome the minds and personalities of Granny Smith, Bulk Bicepts, and a third pony.
4). Reassign the cutie marks (one of the most personal aspects about who a pony is) of the Royal Sisters without a thought to obtaining their consent, in order to get them to learn what she wanted them to learn.
...it does not seem as if she has really made much progress away from the pony she was when she was introduced, who locked others into a brainwashing room and removed their Cutie marks to get them to behave as she wanted.
So I think there is decent cause to ask, in light of the near instantly forgiving nature of the characters in the show and the complete lack of consequences to her repeated behavior, if they are truly helping Starlight to reform or just enabling her behavior. Yes, she occasionally shows remorse, but then so do plenty of abusive spouses. At some point, it's not at all healthy to forgive someone like their transgression never happened. Sometimes, they need to be treated differently if they're ever going to truly change.
it feels incomplete?
8257922
1) You do understand the scenarios in which she used both of the EoH correct? There wasn't much of the choice when it came to Discord or Nightmare Moon?
2) Except they're not missing a moral. Their society is not a punishment based one. That's what we've seen of their show and they've stuck to it as that's what they've built it to be. If people say sorry and want to be better people, Equestria is willing to forgive and help move on to be better people. Not stick punishments and consequences down their throats. The people crying "give punishment" are the ones who need to learn that.
3) The scene literally after Twilight and Starlight return from her Time Stunt is Twilight discussing with the Mane 6 about Starlight. Of course they know and you must be crazy if you don't think Twilight didn't tell Celestia at this point. The Mane 6 do know and Celestia most likely knows.
4) You know Twilight, that neurotic unicorn-turned-alicorn who likes to exaggerate things. Yeah her. She had her buttons being pushed by Discord. And it is something Discord would do. He's an ass who learning about friendship even moreso than anyone else except maybe Starlight.
5/6) Rainbow Dash is impulsive and confrontational. She is not violently impulsive to the point of beating another pony straight to the point of unconsciousness. Rainedash was correct. That is a massive disservice to her character.
7) Empty Night Court? Has Night Court even been mentioned in the show? That sounds completely like a fandom thing to make Luna just like Celestia. Do you understand how much trust goes into allowing someone to be able to see and go into your dreams every night? That's a massive amounts of trust in hoping that she won't violate privacy when needed and won't spill your secrets. No ambassador/civilian responsibilities? Didn't seem like she was complaining, or is this part of your headcanon as well?
Of course the holidays treated her as a villain. It's what she became after all. And now that she's back, one publicly announce that it would be changed to symbolize the reunion of the two sisters and one is night of fun pranks and scares that she joins in on.
8258018
Are you really trying to hold "All Bottled Up" and "A Royal Problem" against her?
The first two it makes sense why she would do it. That was literally the season in which she was reintroduced as someone trying to reform. Do you really think that people who say they reform are just going to flip a switch and shuck their bad behavior away?
But to use Season 7 against her. Really?
In "All Bottled Up" the entire reason she bottled up her magic was because she was afraid of what it would do to others because it was doing something she never saw before and realized it was potentially dangerous. That's literally the complete opposite of her in Season 5 and 6.
"A Royal Problem". Sure. Let's completely ignore how she tried to get the facts beforehand. How she tried to get them to calmly have a dialog. When the problem escalated she tried to get them to calmly step back without even using her magic. Let's ignore that she didn't use her magic until the sisters shoved her aside and their shouting match was escalating and only did it because she was panicking.
Nope. She's the same person from the start.
8258046
She's always going to be the same pony. The only thing that can change is her learning a little restraint, which is slow going.
Starlight is an incredibly powerful self-taught mage. To her, magic is a tool to be used for all situations. She was never taught things like restraint, or whether using a spell is ethical. It's her go to. Where Twilight would panic and use spells as a last resort, for Starlight, dangerous and untested spells are step one, two, and three.
That doesn't make her evil, but like anyone with power and a temper, she needs to be watched carefully. She's a former enemy turned friend, and as such should be kept closer than friend or enemy alike. The mistake Twilight made was assuming that she could ever just leave, because she's really the only one capable of fixing the inevitable fallout.
I can understand the impetus behind a story like this. I myself kinda wished Rarity had a newspaper ready to whack Starlight in the nose when she tried something like this. I don't honestly think Rainbow would pummel Starlight, but I could easily see her demanding that she fix things.
8258046
In as much as this discussion is "against" her, sure. They both fit the pattern of her magic and/or actions overwhelming the consent of others.
I believe that she was bottling up her emotions magically, which created a danger, rather than bottling up her dangerous magic. She was once again, in essence, changing something she didn't want or like in a pony through magic... it's just this time it was herself.
Truthfully, I find this episode to be more the equal to "Lesson Zero" than "Every Little Thing She Does" equals it. In both LZ and ABU, a spell is cast on an inanimate object. The magic of that object then overwhelms innocent ponies nearby. Never intending that, the casters each try to cancel the spell but fail, and the overwhelmed ponies act out beyond their control.
Twilight is more culpable than Starlight in her instance for wanting to make the doll desirable enough for the CMC to argue over it and because it got further out of control, but it's mitigated by the fact that casting it at all was an irrational decision made in the grips of a full-blown nervous breakdown, and it was still treated as a Very Big Deal in the climax. Starlight never intended to affect other ponies to any degree, but it was awfully reckless to contain such powerful magics in a breakable container, they still completely controlled three ponies against their will and yet it was dismissed completely as no big deal at all.
So, different flavors/degrees, but I see those two instances of unintentional results and panicked attempts to reign them in as spiritually closer than Starlight's intentional efforts to completely subsume the free will of 5 other ponies, turn them into puppets, and then need to be told that it was wrong to do so.
As I understand it, many abusive spouses don't start swinging until things escalate and tensions run high. It's not an excuse... it's a line that shouldn't be crossed. Starlight is still crossing it, even in Season 7.
That's the point of including those two examples. It keeps happening. She has become less of a jerk while doing it, but they're still enabling the problematic behavior.
8257922
Just wanted to interject here... using the EoH on somepony like Starlight seems a little pointless. She's not corrupted by dark magic and driven mad, nor is she a capricious spirit of chaos who spreads misery by her very existence. She's a pony with issues and power. You can solve a problem like her in two ways: attempt to imprison her, which would involve magical suppression and constant monitoring, or turn her into an asset by showing her the error of her ways.
Option two obviously takes longer. Starlight is an old dog with a huge bag of tricks, and she picks up new magic far quicker than she does lessons about how to be a good friend. But in the long run, it makes more sense.
8258110
8258099
How is Starlight in All Bottled Up even close to the person she was in Season 6.
In Season 6 she uses her magic on ponies with no care on how it would affect others.
So how in the world is Starlight Glimmer in All Bottled Up the same as that?
You know what she did when she saw her magic, spawned from her anger? She explicitly states that her magic was doing something that she never saw before. It was completely unpredictable to her, in other words she had absolutely no idea what would happen with it. The only thing is that she knew it had to go somewhere.
So out of the complete concern of not trying to hurt others she tries to seal the magic away.
How is this not her going somewhere?
"A Royal Problem". Much like "All Bottled Up" you're literally doing nothing but focusing on "She using magic" while ignoring every single bit of context leading up to it and why she chose to use the magic.
Stop ignoring how she chose to solve/resolve/prevent the problem in the no-magic ways in favor of "She's using magic".
8258111
I agree. ^^
8258126
Honestly, a Royal Problem is less a problem with Starlight and more a WTF moment that a spell exists that will swap two ponies' cutiemarks for exactly 24 hours, it works on alicorns, and it cannot be reversed.
Imagine if this spell was used on a police pony and a convicted murderer? Why does this spell exist and why isn't its very existence hidden?
The answer is, of course, plot convenience, but good lord the precedents this show sets sometimes...
As for why her using magic all the time is a problem... it goes back to the whole lack of restraint thing. She hasn't killed yet (assuming you ignore the many worlds theory and how much suffering she potentially caused for her grudge), but I can't see it being more than one accidental disintegration spell away.
8258126
I'm not focusing on using magic at all... the issue is that ponies keep being altered without their consent by her actions. Over and over again. She needs to stop forcefully changing ponies without their consent.
The fact that it keeps happening , ponies immediately forgive it, and then it happens again makes it a pattern of enabled behavior.
8258165
Well, Pinkie said it best in Mirror magic.
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8258158
The Mark Swapping ability has been something limited to only 2 unicorns (both very powerful) in the series so far. One did it by accident by casting an ancient and powerful spell and the other most likely devoted a lot of her life towards Mark magic. I highly doubt it's a public spell and I don't see why it working on alicorns matter aside from headcanon with inflated alicorn OPness for no reason other than "cuz alicorns".
I don't see how she isn't learning restraint.
She sealed her magic away out of concern for others.
She only used magic on the Royal Sisters AFTER trying non-magical means and being backed into a corner while panicking.
People who lack restraint don't do those things.
8258191
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The comments section got salty pretty quick
8258451
Entirely unsurprising. It is Glimmer
I'm not sure Dash would be quite this aggressive, but in general I did enjoy this, at least for featuring some of the anxiety I'm starting to wish the mane six had about Starlight. I do agree that Starlight is simply in need of guidance, and I'm not convinced harsh punishments are the ideal way to do that. I can also see that Starlight is improving a lot over time, and she seems genuinely well-intentioned. She doesn't deserve to be treated as a threat, and alienating her like that might be detrimental. But she also thought she was doing the right thing with removing cutie marks and such, and if her lack of moral development leads to alarming behaviour like this, then I dunno, I just can't help but see her as a ticking time bomb, and it's not Dash's actions or arguments which made this story a little cathartic for me, but this:
Something like that is what I think would make Starlight's character arc a little more satisfying, and if it can't do that, then I'm not sure the show should have taken on this subject matter in the first place. Again, I can't help but feel that Starlight is dangerous if every other episode starring her has her either negatively affecting others or doing something I find immoral; "Lesson Zero" was only one appearance out of many, whereas Starlight does stuff like this every other time she appears.
I'm glad that Twilight offers the other side, and her counterarguments contribute a lot to making the latter half of this so satisfying. But I also like the challenge to her as a teacher, and that's another thing I feel like the show has missed the opportunity to explore. We don't really see how Twilight might struggle with being a mentor now. So it was nice to see that here.
8257594
While Celestia seemed disappointed, I was never entirely certain what she intended to do. Twilight's fear of "magic kindergarten" was obviously not accurate, but if Celestia was willing to leave her be simply because her friends vouched for her, was she ever going to do anything?
8257751
I'm not sure how much of that was punishment, per se, as both of those were possibly unintended side effects with the main intention being to stop her from doing harm, after which she was mostly left alone. As for "Luna Eclipsed," that was clearly presented as being unfair to her.
8258191
I'm bothered by the fact that she did that at all. The episode never convinced me that the stakes were high enough for her to cross that ethical boundary.
I'll give you "All Bottled Up," though, even if I don't feel like we needed another episode provoked by Starlight doing something irresponsible and negatively impacting others in the process. My feelings about that are mostly irrelevant to this conversation, as Starlight's immaturity is more or less the point there, but it sort of adds to the idea that things go wrong when Starlight is left alone. I didn't like "Rock Solid Friendship" that much, but I suspect Starlight would get much less hate if the show gave her more episodes like that, where she can be left alone without doing anything questionable.
8258165
You are aware that it was actually Trixie's fault those ponies were infected with Starlight's anger? If she hadn't been so determined to see the jar, it wouldn't have broken.
As for your other points, there's no denying Starlight can be impulsive. But she means well, and her use of magic revolves around her genuinely believing it's the right way to go. And as "A Royal Problem" showed, she's making an effort to try and solve problems without the use of magic.
Except Twilight reminded Starlight that the last time the sisters fought, Luna became Nightmare Moon. It's not so surprising that Starlight would panic when she saw Celestia and Luna enter into a blazing row.
8258540
Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. A time bomb really is the best metaphor I've heard so far for Starlight.
Glad you enjoyed it, for any and all reasons
8257217 actually we have confirmation that twilight doesn't have unlimited power, neither do any of the princesses because there are other nations ruled by there own governments, and starlight's crimes do not effect equestria exclusively, they effected the entire planet as a whole therefore it is not to the princesses to judge starlight alone.
too your other point, twilight walks on a knifes edge with that one because if the full extent of starlight's actions ever becomes public, and considering we know at least the mane 6 know of what she did, celestia well have to choose between backing her students short sighted solution, and thus damaging her global reputation and equestrias and risking multiple fronts of war, or voiding twilight's pardon and doing the right thing, having her judged by a tribunal and executed as she has earned for herself.