Fanfiction masochist. :B She/they https://ko-fi.com/presentperfect
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Roblé Rotunda has the perfect thesis for his master's program. It's sure to put his name into the annals of Equestria's greatest thinkers.
He's going to prove that Princess Celestia is not omnipotent.
Cover by Kittyhawk Contrail!
Rated Worth Reading by Titanium Dragon!
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Good luck with that, Roblé.
Good luck indeed...
~ Chapter: 13
I love stories like this.
Princess Celestia is so wonderfully OP.
That was... fucking cool. I hope this makes it to the front page, because this was the neatest little story I've read in a long time.
Eloquently written, intense without being an action story, thought-provoking without being horribly long-winded.
10/10
Now this, THIS is a thought exercise. As I type this, I still cannot fully wrap my head around this story, or the underlying principle that inspired it in the first place...
And I love it.
A challenging fic, truly. Omnipotence without omnipotence. Fascinating...
Well done.
This was pleasantly understated, and the true message got across.
I... I don't get it.
Love it! Because Celestia should not only be unfathomably powerful; she should be unfathomably good.
Even Celestia has her limits, but she pushes against them with everything she has and accepts the unyielding ones with a laugh. Something there for all of us to learn.
Thank you for this.
7894351 Russel's Paradox is actually pretty straightforward in that regard. The problem asserted is that no matter how you 'solve' this problem, the very idea of omnipotence - "All powerful" - is itself a logical contradiction. If your omnipotence allows you to create the logical absurdity of being both capable of all things and yet incapable of some things, only one statement or the other can be true.
The last bit is the usual response to the paradox, i.e., does being omnipotent necessarily require you to be logically absurd in your nature? Defining the extent of "what is possible" and then applying that definition to oneself could only prove that one used to be all-capable. It can't be done by any being who is currently all-capable (since that would prove not that they made a stone that they couldn't lift, but that they have refused to try).
How many universes have you created that you're privy to the nature of such actions? All of this is conjecture and speculation on what could be, and that's fine. But speculating about "bigger" and "more capable" means nothing without context. Creating what is beyond your capabilities is itself an act that erodes basic omnipotence.
I'll be honest, I'm flattered I inspired this but I'm a bit confused what in my blog actually did - beyond, perhaps, mentioning the God Paradox at all. The basic scenario feels a bit off to me. Does Princess Celestia really have this much of a problem with skeptics doubting omnipotence she's never claimed? Even assuming deific status, this feels a bit like taking time out of one's busy schedule to let the king of dragons know you've logically deduced that they are not a cherub. Technically correct, practically useless. I suppose that's part of the point Celestia makes by so readily carrying out the make-a-stone test, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone should want to propose it to her. I know it's part of a Master's Thesis, but what discipline is this thesis in? Religious or political philosophy? History? Architecture? Princess Celestia twice over mentions these in connection with Roble but I have no idea who he is or why he's doing this. The best I can figure based on the ending is that he in some way sees proving her not to be omnipotent will justify his own relative weakness but I'm not really sure.
The swaggering arrogance also feels a bit off. As someone who's been in and out of the church, I can say with certainty that if you believe in God and find out they aren't around, it rips you up in ways you can't explain. It's not a pretty moment. Roble seems to have the opposite response, however. Celestia's proof of her power and majesty is what strikes him, not the fact that she's incapable of accomplishing a task, which means that he was dispossessed of any belief she was omnipotent long before this point. And missing his emotional reaction of reaching that point feels weird. I'm missing a key area of connection.
I suppose what we're getting at here is that technical omnipotence is sort of a game of absurdity - does it matter if one isn't "omnipotent" when, in fact, their majesty and power do eclipse all conventional standards to the point of practically being identical? But Roble's attitude, his single-minded quest to prove Celestia isn't omnipotent, felt disconnected from that resolution. i couldn't really bring myself to square all his conflicting potential motives in my head. Is he doing this out of shcaudenfreude? Because he's just a dick? Why pursue this? What thesis in what subject is he even writing that this is relevant to?
That said, I was beyond flattered you posted this story and I did enjoy reading it. I just found it difficult to really engage with. Perhaps I'm the problem.
Great story!!!
And more food for thought: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eKc5kgPVrA
This would have been so much simpler if they'd just asked Celestia if she was omnipotent. She would likely have laughed at them... and then said yes, because Trollestia.
That was a delightfully charming little story.
From my own perspective as a contented nonbeliever, these kinds of thought experiments are honestly pretty useless, and miss the point. Because religion isn't really about the structure of the cosmos. At its best, it's about persuading people to treat each other well.
Well done, Princess.
7894351 All one needs to ask is, "If Alondro were Super God, and some pretentious douche asked him this question, how badly would he troll the douche before finally atomizing him?"
There are questions you just don't ask beings that are clearly radically more powerful than you are.
This is the BIG ONE. Because they just might prove it to you if they aren't as benevolent as they are powerful.
Artichoke here. I really want to see that spell!
This was a really great story. You wrote Celestia just so perfectly and showed how great (and yet humble) a character she is. She knew all along what Rotunda's thoughts were and what he was driving at. While she may not be omnipotent, she is an excellent reader of character and probably a superior poker player. Ruling a kingdom (quite fairly, I might add) for nigh close to 3,000 years might make a pony a bit wise, yes?
As I said in the beginning, a great story. The friendship lesson at the end was perfect without being trite and the whole tale was just full of charm and wonder. You've done well, Present Perfect. Bravo!
Nicely written.
Me, I always had a problem with that particular inquiry. I feel it is a bit of daft test for omnipotence, laughably easy to work around; all one has to do is modifiy one's physical form to a desired lift capacity and create an object that exceeds that. Do-able within any reasonable scope of near-omnipotance.
Because that age-old postulation is far too simple and the universe is anything but simple, as any engineer will tell you. Try setting some boundary conditions and doing proper science, metaphorical questioner, and one might have the time of day.
(Alternatively, if one it is truly omnipotent (and one does not simply suggest that questioner go away and read what "infinity" actually means and that is it not a number), simply point out that creating an object that even passably could be within a ball prak would create a sufficient gravitation field that it would collapse the universe into a single point and destroy everything. (And again suggest the questioner does not, in fact, actually know what "infinity" means.
Though one would imagine such an omnipotent might have something better to do than disprove statements on said power - and that, for the questioner, said being is benevolent...)
Celestia, on the other hand, shows omnibenevolence, if not omnipotance; because I don't know about anone else, but the forth of fifth time I would have been asked that, I would have made an announcement to the effect that the next individual asking that question would be asked one of their own first, e.g. "can you breath in a black hole?"
Is Roble a Rotten individual? I mean, certainly, he seems more...sporting about it all, but then again, maybe he just had a chance to bake a piece of pretty cake.
7894774 Well, that wasn't really my point.
He knows she's not OMNIPOTENT, but she IS far more powerful than any other pony.
And his bravado and arrogance only didn't get him slaughtered because she's a nice pony. This would not have gone over so well with, say, Sombra. Or Nightmare Moon.
My point was, he was really a douche.
7894763
...Amusingly, I wasn't intending to but kind of did. Though I don't claim any special knowledge about the creation of universes either. I more meant to say that it amused me that you categorically described what it must be like to create a universe without a priori knowledge of universe creation. (Although I think Oliver, if he shows up, will probably argue that as a technical act if either of us have ever written or constructed a story, on some level, yes, we have made a universe.)
Gevurah itself is admittedly an alien notion to the very concept of 'true' omnipotence. Oliver, I think, argued that true omnipotence exists in the ability to create and destroy plot at will. If that's the case, then by definition no truly omnipotent individual can say they have access to the power to restrain themselves as a writer, only the power to restrain their impulses. I find this amusing on some level, particularly when you realize it means that any beautiful story in the universe exists only as a matter of a writer choosing not to make it ugly, and that if someone did 'author' us then I have to question their literary taste.
Weirdly, that's something unclear. Is what he's doing directly pertinent to philosophy? We don't have strict evidence that Celestia is a deified figure in Equestria, and given the sun and moon are objects manipulated by ponies throughout time it seems to me unlikely that there's a tradition of solar worship for them to draw on and embody in her. "God-Queen" was always a fan concept first and a series concept second. Assuming that she is in fact deified by most of Equestria in this story, however, the nature of a philosophy class that could at any moment be visited by God would be quite different, I think, than most of us are used to.
7894525
Just because you can say something doesn't make it a meaningful statement.
"Create an object so heavy you cannot lift it" is not a meaningful statement in real life; there are some interpretations of it which have at least some meaning (for instance, a stellar mass black hole cannot be lifted by picking it up with your hands) but there are other interpretations (such as, say, moving an object relative to another object) to which any observable object is subject.
As is noted by the Omnipotence Wikipedia article:
This is far more ambiguous than it might seem at first blush. What does it mean to have unlimited power? Is it even a physically meaningful statement? How would you go about measuring it?
In the Universe, as we understand it, there's no such thing - it is prohibited by the laws of thermodynamics. But if you could somehow create an infinite amount of power over time over an infinite amount of space, you might not even seem all that powerful - any sort of immortal, eternal being would by this definition have "unlimited power" (it would never run out, so the amount of power they generated would be infinite) and yet at any given moment in time they might not be putting out very much power at all. I don't think most people would consider that to be a satisfying answer - indeed, such a thing might appear fairly ordinary at any given point in time, and not even all that powerful relative to things around it - and yet it would satisfy the criterion of "unlimited power" and be extremely difficult to disprove.
Being next to something which is putting out huge amounts of energy will quickly result in everything around it turning to plasma, at which point it is no longer possible to meaningfully observe the object - a supernova does not produce an infinite amount of power, but if you were sitting next to one, you'd never know the difference as you'd be incinerated long before you could prove it was not infinite. The more powerful something is, the more energy it would put out, and thus the more region it would vaporize, and thus the further away you would have to be - something which was infinitely powerful in a given moment would destroy everything which was capable of observing it.
Omnipotence is not possible in our Universe because of the laws of physics (at least, as far as we understand them) but the idea that it is some sort of logical self-contradiction isn't necessarily true - it depends on how you define it, and your definition may be worthless. "What happens when an unstoppable force collides with an immovable object?" is a sentence you can construct in English, but it isn't necessarily physically meaningful, and therefore may not mean any more than "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."
As noted in Newton's Flaming Laser Sword:
I was guessing that Celestia would move the planet while the rock stayed stationary.
7894863 I think I just made that point with less reference to supernovas.
Unless there's a specific difference in your position and mine that I can't quite otherwise parse. If unlimited power forces you to be capable of logical absurdities, it can't actually exist.
The general understanding of omnipotence as is usually applied to deities is "capable of all things, even ones previously considered impossibilities according to general human capabilities of observation and understanding." So in fact, saying that something possesses an unlimited amount of energy is not in fact a direct 1-1 observation that it is also omnipotent, or even approaching omnipotence. When used in the context of theoretical God/gods/beings, it's measuring a matter of that being's capability as an effective individual actor to impact the world around them and ourselves. Thus while I could see an argument that a supremely capable or powerful individual might be functionally omnipotent (even if not 'truly omnipotent'), since we can't actually tell the difference, I can't quite see an argument that something possessing an unlimited amount of energy could ever be considered such if it simply expanded it slowly over time. Because generally, omnipotence is linked to capability, not simply to possession of strength.
Whether such beings exist is another story entirely.
A fun little story, with a nicely characterized Celestia, but as already stated, after six seasons of MLP the notion that anyPony [1] would consider Celestia omnipotent seems a bit absurd, considering how often she gets PWNed for reasons of plot (not that one, you sicko, the literary kind). This story would have worked better if published before the second season came out.
The rock is of course in motion from the moment it comes into existence, unless the world of Equestria is the immobile center of a non-relativistic universe.
[1] Well, if Ponies are like humans in terms of religious sentiment, there will be some Ponies which worship Celestia - after all, if some humans are willing to accept Haile Selassie as the messiah, why not
ZoidbergCelestia? And, again if they think like humans, some within this group will consider all Celestia's Fails as Tests of Faith.7894778 ...
Damn it.
I'm never going to be able to unread this now.
7894879
The problem is that this is a statement which is based in English, while the Universe runs on math. That was what I was trying to get at with my post.
That said, I think this story is actually really focused on Roblé, not Celestia; the focus is really about Roblé and his sort of recognition of how small and petty he is, as well as him coming to question whether or not his question is even a meaningful one. He's left empty at the end because he realizes that the whole reason he was trying to do this was to make himself feel big, and in the end, even though he's "proved" that Celestia is not omnipotent (at least, in the way he understood it), that the whole argument he had been constructing was pointless.
He had tried to make himself feel special by challenging Celestia in that way, but the end reveals that not only is it a spell that anyone with enough power can cast, but that Celestia has been challenged in this particular way many times, so he wasn't even unique or special in his challenge. He wanted to feel better about himself, but watching Celestia struggle with lifting the rock didn't make him feel good.
In the end, he recognizes that his problem isn't with Celestia, it is with himself.
7894975
It is, but I'm honestly kind of tilting my head as to why and how he'd even entertain such a notion. His smallness and pettiness feel oddly disconnected from the figure and his attempts to prove her less significant.
I mean, if he were really small and petty, why omnipotence? Why not prove that as a leader, she's fallible? That she's made poor decisions, failed in tasks? Why not focus on those, why ask about rocks she can't lift? That's the kind of question you task theoretical deities with, not theistic monarchs. The challenge doesn't fit the circumstances.
Him realizing how little his 'proof' that she isn't omnipotent is means so much less when you wonder whether that was a sensible question he'd have asked. (or why he was writing a thesis on the subject).
I sort of see that. I just think math's a poor medium of communication when not helped by a considerable grasp of ways to explain it. And occasionally sort of misses the core of the point. Mathematically the idea of infinite power is an absurdity all on its own.
Actually, to be honest, I'd argue that the universe doesn't so much run on math as our understanding of the physical universe is expressed through math. There are a great many right angles in nature. The existence of the universe isn't contingent on them having names, any more than it is contingent on being able to express them in relation to one another.
7895019
Sorry, I edited my post that you were responding to, but I think I answered what you were asking there. TL; DR; he wanted to feel special - proving that Celestia wasn't omnipotent was supposed to make him feel bigger. But the whole exercise only made him feel small and petty - Celestia doing her thing didn't make him feel better about himself, it scared him. The spell means that the test he was asking wasn't even necessarily a meaningful one, as other people who no one thinks of as omnipotent can do the same thing. And he wasn't even unique in asking his question, as large numbers of people had done so previously (as proved by the field of obelisks).
He was asking the wrong questions of the wrong person, and was driven by jealousy.
Can Princess Celestia magic a burrito so hot that she herself could not eat it? I'll see myself out.
To me this story illustrates the fact that omnipotence is not a case of physics, but will, and the true power lies with the capriciousness with which Celestia wields it. It is her choice, after all whether the rock resists her or she it. One hopes at this point that The Princess never proves a fickle femme fatale (as sometimes befalls a princess). Who could see a face on the surface of a sun without being blinded after all?
Roble: "do you even lift, bro?
Celestia: "Nope, what about you?"
This reminds me of crash course philolsophy on youtube. good show and also the full extent of my philosophical knowledge.
On an unrelated note would Discord be considered omni-paradoxical? Could he exist without contradicting himself?
7895108 If anyone could do it, it'd be Discord.
Sorry if I'm missing something, but... uh... what's the point of the endless field of monoliths? Has she just had this same conversation over and over again or something?
Ya know, between you being you and the blurb, I was expecting to look up and see a comedy tag... but then, I guess that doesn't match the cover art that well.
...
Oh, this is great. The self-importance is positively condensing from the air around him.
"Yes, Your Highness. Mother hoped I would continue the family tradition, but my aptitudes have always trended toward academics, thought experiments, and philosophy."
Love it.
...
This did end up working as a drama as well. A good form of Celestia as teacher, and a student more receptive than he'd intended to be.
Though now I do wonder if she has many such sites, one for each version of the paradox she's been confronted with. Don't know how well the burritos would stick around, though.
Your Thesis is invalid, and also it is an invalid.
I've read a few arguments on omnipotent characters over the years and how difficult or impossible it is to write for them. I think SW's analysis is a good take on the troubles of writing such a character. I agree that internal conflict is what can be the key to driving the stick-shift level difficulty of the überpone story line.
Then you come to something like Bill's (From Kill Bill) analysis of such a character. How do they view the "lessers" around them? Weak? Unsure of themselves?
So how could a Pony Princess view those around her? Like children. Like their little ponies. And what does it do to your sanity? Or memory? Nothing that a few dozen cakes can't solve.
7894975
See, I felt dumb for not getting it, and now I feel even dumber for having it explained to me.
7894959 We don't knoooow that that's where PP was going.
But it's also PP.
I must be missing something. What's the significance of the scroll and the spell on it? Is it just to force Roble to grow his power? Is it some method for Celestia to get Roble and Artichoke to make up?
7895438
It is to illustrate a point - he wanted to know if she could create a stone so heavy that she could not lift it (which is a common thought experiment as regards omnipotence). However, the fact that it is a spell that anyone can learn makes his test even less meaningful - it is a spell that anyone with enough power can cast, and it just makes an obelisk that can't be lifted magically.
7895191
Yes, actually. Hes isn't the first to ask this question, and he probably won't be the last.
The funniest part is that proving Celestia isn't omnipotent is just a matter of asking her, although even that is unnecessary because it's fairly self-evident.
As I am sure she'd tell you, had she the power to accomplish literally anything, her sister's banishment would not have been nearly so long, or necessary at all...
I figured I'd give it 24 hours before I started responding to comments, but that has turned out to be a poor decision.
7894351
If there's one problem with this story, it's that, yes, if she's truly omnipotent, she can make anyone believe anything, she can perform any deception, there's literally no way to test it.
But do you really think the Celestia we know would do that? This is less about the actual thought experiment and paradox, and more about the characters and the show setting. Ergo, the point of the story is that it doesn't matter if she's omnipotent, friends are important.
7894525
I like this comment because it's literally something gotten at in the story. :)
I guess, yeah. :B I mean, it gave me the idea to apply it in the most literal way to Celestia, and this is what you get.
Every once in a while, somepony gets a bug up their butt and decides to take down Big Sister, maaaan.
I guess it wasn't clear he's in philosophy. D:
I have no religious background and generally cannot understand how people relate to it.
Scarlet hates my story, time to die. ;_;tyvm for read :C7894550
She would likely answer with, "Well, what do you think?" and then give no committal response.
7894771
That's a neat solution. :)
7894778
7894959
He is (number) one, yes. :3
7894935
Well, A, not everypony has the god-like knowledge of what happens in their world that we, the viewers do, and B, I ignore things I don't agree with. :V
7894975
This guy gets it.
7895059
7895192
If I write a terrible sequel to this story, it will be tagged as your fault. >:V
7895191
Precisely!
7895931
A. Ah, the failures of the Equestrian press corps and educational system...
B. An important way of keeping one's doses of anger and headdesk below terminal levels.
Thinking about Magical Mystery Cure.
Applying (B) hard.
Trufax.
Not so sure there, since the added machinery of self-modification highlights the point that she can do so, and it may be less convincing that she had modified herself to her maximum capacity than that she was attempting to operate at (momentary) max power.
You know you want to. You cannot keep from the Dark Side forever. :V
(... Come to the Dark Side. We have burritos. :D )
7895931
*tips helmet*
It's the engineer's solution, I think. Or the rules-lawyer's. Or both.
7894975
Also this, when applied to that said problem.
This was a wonderfully subtle read Present, thank you
7896166
The only philosophy class I ever took was symbolic logic, and that's just math. :B By which I mean, you obviously have a stronger background in the subject than me, and my eyes glazed over multiple times reading this comment and I can't adequately address it. D:
I think I took a lot of liberties with where he's coming from. Tried to fit some of that in, but at the same time, was not fully aware of just how headcanon-y this whole thing is. Mea culpa.
It's not so much that it can be cast "by a mortal". By giving him the scroll, Celestia is saying, "I can make a stone I can't lift; can you?" Very snarky and even mean for her, but at the same time, a strong point that comes through clearly to Roble and puts him in his place.
Something something ponies are inherently guided by the sun, it's more an instinctual reaction and a recognition that he's in way over his head.
People have been saying the story is subtle, and I think I erred on the side of being too subtle. The very end is supposed to set up the idea that he now can change, whereas before he was stolid in his resistance to all things friendship-related. He's been humbled and made small, and he's willing to reach out to his one friend, which isn't something he would have done previously.
Fair enough. I was trying to use the question only to tell a story, not to actually explore the question itself. I have obviously failed at both parts. D: It was an experiment; I'll try to do better next time.
The Celestia stuff was interesting, but I can't help but wonder about all the stallions in Equestria who are apparently completely oblivious to the clearly interested mares who are hanging around and dressing them for important meetings. Between Sky Stinger and Roblé, I fear for the continuation of the species.
Lol, Kits did your coverart? I had figured they'd switched over to Warframe a while ago.
7895931 I lovehate you sometimes PP
7896317
Hmm, yeah. I just kinda wanted that to hang there with the reader.
Well, thank you. :)
"Roble" is an old word for "oak", as I recall. The accent mark is a little artistic license, because A) it sounds better as a name, and B) I didn't want to telegraph my little easter egg too hard. :V
7896337
I'm glad you picked that up. Why do you think there are so many lesbians? Stallions are hopeless. XD
7896408
Nah, he's still around. He might even write again!
7896542
Winner. :3
Robbie Rotten.