- Member Since 13th Oct, 2013
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Jordan179
I'm a long time science fiction and animation fan who stumbled into My Little Pony fandom and got caught -- I guess I'm a Brony Forever now.
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And end the end, she hurts him enough for him to break up with her.
6818281
Oh yes. There's a very sad scene after the climax of Equestria Girls, which I only noticed when I watched it again to get a good handle on Sunset's pre-Reformation personality. Sunset used Flash as the focus for her Mass Obedience spell, probably because she had mystically-linked to him because they'd not only made out but to some extent really touched souls. And, after she's defeated and in that pit, he looks down at her with disbelieving contempt.
She did hurt him -- after telling herself that he would be the one "barbarian" she would never hurt, because she found him loveable -- and in doing so, that was when she finally and fully lost him. She might have been able to win him back at any point before that, simply by stopping her cruelties to others. She might at least have repaired her friendship for him. But her ambitions were more important, and of course when she'd gone Nightmare, she wasn't thinking about trivialities such as love.
And at that point, Sunset Shimmer realized that she'd lost everything. She'd been defeated, and she'd lost her only true friend. That's part of why she's weeping so bitterly.
Just going off real-world analogues to these traditions, I'd assume the Morningstar is a reference to the devil. But Sunset wouldn't recognize that - what does it represent in your version of Equestria? Is it the Shadows? Or a distorted reference to Luna?
Now I'm imagining an AU!Sunset making that virgin sacrifice to force the portal open again, once she finally has her army assembled... ("Good thing I brought campaign tents," she thinks.)
Well, walking in patterns is waving your hooves around - in contact with the ground, which is probably also a magic conductor?
Somehow I'm guessing those aren't just nightmares and drug flashbacks...
I wonder, what must Flash think of how Sunset's living by herself? I suppose it mustn't be unheard-of, since she managed to register herself for school without any parents anywhere in sight...
Yes, I imagine those are a lot like the spontaneous harmony that sometimes happens between good friends here, only mediated all the more by the herd-instinct and by magic! Wow, how much this hint must bring back to Sunset...
Good answer, Flash. Running with the good side of her point, while deflecting the bad side. And Sunset almost takes it to heart...
... and yes. Friendship Is Magic.
6818319
Not to mention her rather forced lie to Rarity in Rainbow Rocks, that Flash was just a stepping stone to her. You can also tell that Rarity doesn't buy that for a second.
I kinda hope that they eventually show Sunset and Flash mending fences.
6818426
I've wondered myself about Sunset's statement.
At a minimum, the way she feels bad about how she treated Flash indicates that she valued him as a person, judges him to be a good man and believes he deserved better treatment from her. She may not have been sexually attracted to him, but well may have liked him as a friend, and feels that she betrayed him by using him for status. Or she may have been sexually-attracted to him, but felt that there was no future because she was going to go back to Equestria in triumph.
Some writers assume that Sunset is sexually amoral, even promiscuous. This doesn't fit well with my concept of her background. She's originally an Equestrian of the scholar-gentry class, just like Twilight Sparkle (indeed, Rainbow Rocks makes much of the fact that the two mares are Not So Different) and my concept of that subculture is that such Ponies tend to have strong senses of sexual honor.
Plus, she's immersed in an alien culture, among non-Ponies. I don' t think she'd get sexual with such a being unless she really, really liked him.
Of course, if she did really like anyone before her reformation, it would have been Flash Sentry. Rarity herself provides the information that they were an "item," which implies more than a few casual dates. She thinks that Sunset will want revenge on Flash and Twilight, but notably Sunset doesn't seem to really hate Flash at any point in or after Equestria Girls. Whatever happened between them, Sunset was left with a good opinion of Flash Sentry.
Sunset spent a lot of time with Flash, and she must have shown him the better side of her nature, because he broke it off with her because she became crueller. They must have shared interests, been friends in addition to whatever they did romantically or sexually. I posit that what they shared was an interest in music, specifically lyric poetry and the guitar.
Flash is an exceptionally nice guy in canon, and I portray him as such in this tale. He's nice in ways which are totally in accord with the Equestrian concept of virtues (in Chapter 4: "Breakthrough", he shows sexual restraint, which is a major romantic turn-on to any mare sharing Equestrian values, and causes an almost-disbelieving Sunset, who was previously worried he might try to rape her, to re-evaluate her prejudices, at least where he is personally concerned), which is why Twilight Sparkle falls for him; Sunset Shimmer falls for him for the same reasons, because her fundamental values are quite similar to Twilight's even though Sunset has lost her way.
One of the points of this story is that Sunset Shimmer, before her reformation, was terribly lonely. She had minions, allies, dupes and rivals. She had, until she met Flash, no friends. Flash wants her sexually, yes, but he also wants to be her friend. That is what is reaching through the armor of arrogance Sunset wears, to touch her heart.
She sometimes forgets he's not an Equestrian stallion. When she almost gives herself to him, she thinks of him as her "Special Somepony" and her "stallion." She's forgetting that he's a "mere barbarian."
Sadly for her, it's not enough.
6818319
I have to agree that while Sunset Shimmer might have indeed being using Flash because he was just the local alpha male, I think she can't admit to herself that she still liked him... and then lost any hope of ever being with him again, and she has no one to blame but herself.
6818554
Sometimes we Become the Mask, especially when the Mask involves being with someone Sunset finds admirable, someone whom she would see absolutely nothing wrong with loving were he an Equestrian Pony.
The irony is this. Sunset actually has less in common with Pony Flash Sentry than she does with Humanoid Flash Sentry. Though she doesn't know this, because in this story she's never met Pony Flash Sentry.
Fascinating thus far. I love Sunset's mindset here, the desperate use of contempt and fear to justify her horrible acts. She was terrified when she first came to this world, and now she's perpetuating the actions that kept her safe out of habit. Without Celestia to guide her, the original acts have become encoded in a one-mare tradition. And Sunset is so driven that she fails to see even the irony of the situation, much less all of her mistaken assumptions. Protip: If your Cosmic form nods in approval of you making nice with the ape-things, keep making nice with the ape-things.
I do have to wonder about the Morningstar. Not sure where that came from; if I didn't know any better, I'd think the idea's origins among ponykind went all the way back to Dream Valley and Megan. Unless, of course, Satan is actually a thing in this cosmos, which is entirely possible.
The experimentation was fantastic. Studious, scientific Sunset is always nice to see. And if she thought the demons were bad, I can only imagine what she thought if she ever found the Cthulhu Mythos or the local analogue.
Eagerly looking forward to more.
This is great so far, I don't really have much to add that others haven't already so lets just wait to see how this resolves!
6818385
Since I'm going by a variant of Alex Warlorn's PonyPOV cosmology, the Morningstar is the Alicorn who rebelled against the All-Father and Fauna Luster, and turned to evil. The lore is much the same in both worlds, and Sunset Shimmer can figure out enough by reading about the entity named in the Humanoid world that she knows why she doesn't want to bargain with it or its minions.
Remember, Sunset Shimmer thinks of herself as pragmatic, ruthless and highly-determined to realize her destiny as a force for Good in the Unvierse. She does not consider herself evil. She doesn't have her Heel Realization until she is blasted by the Rainbow of Harmony, cleared of her Nightmare, and realizes that she's just nearly killed Twilight Sparkle (a fellow Canterlot Unicorn mare) and her friends, and used the only real friend she'd ever made in the Humanoid world as a focusing point to form a disposable mind-controlled army.
I didn't grasp this until I'd read the origin comic and seen Rainbow Rocks -- that Sunset Shimmer did not originally intend to do evil or consider what she was doing evil. It was only when I realized that she thought of herself as good, all the way up to that final moment of the fight, that I grasped the way she excused her actions to herself -- namely, "I had to do it to survive and win."
Sunset Shimmer is misguided, but she's not yet far gone enough to think in terms of making a deal with the Devil just to succeed in her plans.
She also doesn't originally intend to kill anyone. Not even Humanoids. She justifies shattering their friendships to herself as "disrupting potentially-dangerous coalitions" which could form against her, but she's not willing to actually murder Humanoids just to get magical energy. On some level, she knows they're people even as she tries to conceive of them as dangerous beasts. If she didn't know this on some level, she wouldn't be cuddling Flash Sentry.
Her orginal plan can be summarized as "Grow in magical power, find something which can amplify my might, and return to Equestria strong enough that Celestia will have to respect me and listen to my demands." This is a foolishly aggressive plan, but Sunset is indeed foolishly-aggressive. The thing she doesn't get is that all Celestia actually wants her to do is realize the error of her ways, and that in fact she can't Ascend without personal emotional and moral growth.
When the Nightmare comes over her, she loses her former inhibitions against killing, or forcing her foes to kill her minions. But that doesn't happen until the actual climax of Equestria Girls. Note that until she actually transforms, she's not willing to kill anyone -- not even Spike. Indeed, she flat-out scornfully says "What do you think I am -- a monster?"
She's still thinking like an Equestrian scholar-mage, right up to the point that she transforms into the She-Demon.
6818385
Well, yes. But not in the same way as Humanoid "mystic passes." The idea is to connect with the "Earth current" (thank you, William Hope Hodgson, for that useful term). Goldie Pie does this in my stories (she's also an alchemist, herbalist and healer in addition to being a midwife). It's also how rock farming, in general, works.
Sunset Shimmer only has a general sort of notion of how Earth Pony magic works, because she's a Unicorn mage. She just knows enough that she knows, yes, it's real and there are some adepts. And sort of what they do.
This is more than most Unicorn mages know, as Unicorns like to pretend to themselves that they're the only real mages. Celestia, of course, knows better -- and told Sunset so.
And, yeah ... Sunset's most successful potion succeeded in opening her up enough that she attracted the attention of the Night Shadows. Who can't get through to this world as easily as they can to Equestria, but who are certainly interested in any half-crazy nascent Alicorn, as a potential host.
6818400
In the Equestria Girls world, children are obviously encouraged to be responsible and self-reliant earlier than in our world. Anyone under the age of 21 is technically a minor and under adult guardianship, but it's not uncommon for minors aged 14-21 to be living separately or semi-separately from their parents, and in many cases holding down part-time jobs. If challenged, they need to have proof of parental consent to their semi-emancipation.
This is exactly how America worked before the vast growth of the social welfare bureaucracy of the New Society in the 1960's -- and even more so before the New Deal in the 1930's. The North Amareican Federation has simply not slipped as far into bureaucratic tyranny regarding domestic matters as has the United States of America in 2016.
Don't the kids sometimes get into trouble? Yes, they do. Just as they do now, in our world, the difference being that in our world there are lots more bureaucrats with lots more paperwork covering their asses when the kids wind up dead, pregnant or in prison for their crimes. Another difference is that the NAF tends to raise their kids better so that they are less likely to wind up in such situations.
I conceptualize the NAF in many ways as a USA that was never successfully infiltrated by the Communists in the 1930's-1940's and never suffered the Counterculture of the 1960's-1970's. Not at all perfect, but with a rather different set of social problems.
That actually sees to be the way it's shown in the Movies. This may be an external artifact of the need to avoid touching on R-rated matters, but that's the implication created by what they show.
6819171
You've grasped it!
Yes, the irony being that while Sunset prides herself on coming from a more Harmonious culture than is the North American Federation, she's the one who is behaving in a deliberately Disharmonious fashion, largely out of fear that the "ape-things" will unite against her and tear her apart. And she comes right up against the contradiction dealing with Flash Sentry, who treats her with Love and Friendship, using her honorably and kindly by her own moral standards. (That's the point of the scene where he demonstrates sexual self-restraint, which Equestrians consider an attractive virtue in a stallion).
So, of course, she concludes that Flash must be an exception, a "nice barbarian." And he is an unsually good Humanoid. But he's hardly the only one, which is something she is trying not to realize, because if she realized this she might have to rethink her whole "plunder the magic I need from the ape-things and force Celestia to respect me" strategy.
This is the contradiction that utterly shatters her morale when she loses, and realizes that -- among other things -- she was about to use Flash Sentry himself as potential cannon fodder.
Yes, this is beautiful, just like I thought it would be. I feel about people the way she does.
Tee hee. I can't wait for more of this.
Very interesting concept for unicorn horns. I actually put a small extension of the brain in there, which does most of the magical heavy lifting when prompted by the primary cortex, much in the same way a child's mind predicts the position of a thrown ball in time to catch it. (It's also how and why Rarity got dragged to her destiny. The cornic lobe doesn't usually do anything but help with magic, but it can get antsy when special talents are involved.)
Heh. Sunset almost dipped her toe into the aquatic ape hypothesis there. We may be on par with ponies, but we're much better swimmers than most of our taxonomic relatives.
Also, Sunset's gone from wizard to bard. Well, it's certainly forward progress. It will be very interesting to see where she goes from here.
6818559
a) why isn't Sunset impressed with Human technology? isn't more advanced than Equestrian's one? not bad for a race of barbarians
b) will Sunset consider someday share her research about magic with humanity?
Am I sensing that this is maybe what happened to Cloud Kicker?
Also, I like the refernce to the Earth Maiden and Sky Maiden story...can't remember the name, though...
6822848
She is impressed by Human technology. She knows it's more advanced than Equestria's. She feels a strong sense of superiority based on Equestrian culture (which she has come to romanticize a little after years of exile), especially Equestrian moral philosophy. She sees Equestrians (and herself) as morally superior to the Human "barbarians."
She has to make exceptions in her worldview for Flash Sentry, because she has to reconcile her assumptions of superiority with the fact that she loves him. She knows that he's as nice or nicer than most Equestrian stallions, and she's further prejudiced toward him because of her love. Some of this is just that she's terribly lonely and has fixed on him as the nicest attractive male in her environment; some of it is due to Flash's genuine virtues.
The problem (for Sunset) is that Flash likes most of his fellow Humans, and would be -- will be -- horrified when he realizes just how ruthless she's capable of being toward them.
Possibly. The problem is that a lot of the magic she's managed to cast as a Human isn't practical -- it's just enough that she could prove magic to Human scientists, if she wanted to do so, but it's not enough to be actually useful compared to technological solutions. Even her success at the end of Chapter Six took a couple of minutes. She could have done it faster with a lighter, and not also set her carpet on fire.
She's especially likely to show her work, later on when she's friendly with Princess Twilight and the Rainbooms. Though she spends a lot of Rainbow Rocks deeply-demoralized and perhaps even clinically-depressed. Part of the inspiration for this story was my realization of how badly broken she was at the end of Equestria Girls.
My opinion is that she demonstrated her skill with musical magic at the climax of Rainbow Rocks, when she defeated the Dazzlings -- exactly what she was thinking of in my story when she was remembering that there had been really-dangerous Sea Pony warlocks.
I wouldn't bet on that...
6824365
Well ...
On the one hoof, my North Amareican Federation isn't precisely the United States of America. It's kinder in some ways (especially domestically), crueller in others (especially militarily). I made it a strangely resonant alternate history because I noticed that the culture shown in the EG movies is one that has never really been through the 60's-70's Counterculture. Our actual country would horrify Sunset far more in its extremely pornographic pop culture and promiscuity, maybe less so in its military history and diplomatic attitudes (she wouldn't blink an eye on what was going on without our interference, Equestria itself is a country who believes that everyone beyond its frontiers are at least semi-barabaric).
On the other hoof, Sunset Shimmer is a more than a slightly biased observer. She's horribly lonely, and still crushed by her rejection by Celestia, and close to going Lone-Mad. She has too see herself and her civilization as vastly superior, because the moment that she doesn't, she's just one lonely little mare trapped among aliens forever, aliens who may in their alienness have points of view as meaningful and valuable as her own. Part of the reason she falls for Flash Sentry is that she is very lonely, and she desperately wants a friend, wants someone to love. And she has to see him as a Pony at heart to get past her own prejudices.
Interesting idea. It would explain why once the ambient magical level around CHS increases over the first two movies, Twilight Sparkle is able to build a device that can track and even capture this energy. Presumably other scientists never tried this because they never noticed such strange energy readings to try and manipulate in the first place.
6822848 Sunset is definitely an unreliable narrator. I think a big part of why she seems so strongly to believe that humans are mostly barbaric rapists is because she is afraid if she allows herself to admire the human world to much, it will be harder for her to go home, and especially hard for her to use humans as pawns in her plans. By constantly telling herself humanity sucks, it's a lot easier to justify acting selfishly.
6822878
Cloud Kicker was a lonely young filly with too much erudition for her own good when she summoned Winning, which as some people have pointed out to me is a horribly-dark concept -- she destroyed herself through naivete rather than true evil. Sunset Shimmer was older when she turned on Celestia, and she was very fortunate that when she went Nightmare at the climax of Equestria Girls it was right in the presence of Twilight Sparkle and the local analogues of the Element Bearers -- this is why she was defeated, but also why she managed to avoid harming herself (or anyone else) too much in her fall.
The main prices Sunset pays for her pride are (1) losing Celestia's favor (though they are destined to be reconciled -- it's very obvious in canon that Celestia still cares about her a lot); (2) losing Flash's love (in the SWSV, because of who Twilight chooses, she still has a chance of winning it back later on) and (3) alienating pretty much everyone else at Canterlot High School (though by the end of Rainbow Rocks she's pretty much forgiven, because she saved them all from the Sirens). This story is mostly about how she wins and loses Flash Sentry's love, and it's obvious in the story that he really does care for her.
Yeah. I really liked that story, can't remember the name or the author, but I know it's somewhere on the site. The concept of the ritual was great, but it didn't sound like something that fit at all into modern Equestria. That's why I located the ritual in pre-Windigo Tri-Tribal times, and had Sunset Shimmer (a modern Equestrian) be shockd by discovering that it was once practiced (it violates her morality for at least two reasons -- the impersonality of the sex and the publicity of the sex). Celestia has of course known about it for a long time (my Celestia probably heard about it either when she was still in Paradise Estate or soon afterward, when she researched the Three Tribes at the Great Library of the Crystal Empire, about 2500 years ago) and merely points out that such rituals are bad ideas but can become customary due to having worked at least once to produce good outcomes.
The relevance of the story is that, ironically, Sunset is now warping her own life in pursuit of power in a manner even worse that a participant in the old ritual, in pursuit of power, and it's corrupting her. She originally dates Flash as a political machination -- when, with greater luck than she really deseves, she discovers that Flash really is a kindred spirit and possible soul mate, she then assumes that she must throw his love away because it doesn't fit her own (poorly-conceived) ambitions. The irony here is that Sunset considers herself morally-superior to the ancient practicioners of the Marriage of Earth and Sky, but her moral superiority is questionable to say the least -- at least they engaged in their sex magic for the good of their people, and did so openly and without deception, while Sunset is behaving selfishly and surreptitiously, including toward Flash.
A lot of this story is about Sunset's arrogance and moral hypocrisy, if you've noticed.
6827364
Magic was never adapted to practical purposes in the EG Humanoidverse because it was far too weak and unreliable. Science grew up disbelieving in it (because they couldn't reproduce even trivial results) and hence would now require extraordinary proof to accept its reality (a whole school falling into a dimensional rift and gateways opening to a parallel world might have done it, though). Sunset has the huge advantage that she knows magic can work, and precisely how to work it. Even she can't do anything which she couldn't do far more practically with chemistry and other forms of known Humanoidverse technology -- even when she sets fire to her room, it takes her two minutes and a lot of effort -- she could have achieved the same results faster through conventional arson. Plus, she didn't actually mean to set fire to her room!
Things may of couse change now. After Equestria Girls, magic becomes terrifyingly easier to do, especially in the vicinity of Canterlot High School. And the barriers between the planes are weakening.
6827386
Exactly. If you've noticed, Canterlot High School is an elite high school with a fairly moral student body who are more inclined to hang out and make friends with each other than go on rampages of brutality and sexual violence, in a society which is if anything a cleaner version of the modern West. We're talking Archie's Riverdale here, not Abu Bakr el-Baghdadi's Caliphate or Hitler's Germany.
They are slightly more violent, sexually-aggressive and promiscous than are most Equestrians (especially in the little upper-class scholar-gentry bubble in which Sunset Shimmer was raised -- and note, she was around 15 when she exiled herself -- not exactly a mare of the world -- so her perspective on Equestrian culture was that of a smart but somewhat innocent teenaged filly); but not terribly so. We would find them to be compassionate, polite and moral by modern American standards, let alone worse ones.
Note that in the first love scene, she's actually afraid that Flash is going to lose control and rape her. Instead, the instant he realizes that she's not entirely comfortable with how far they're going, Flash demonstrates empathy and concern for her; he backs off and has a conversation with her. Flash is a good guy even by the standards of his world, but he's not as uniquely nice as she imagines. He's a superior product of his social environment. A lot of the guys at Canterlot High School are fundamentally decent fellows.
Sunset has to see them as monsters because it excuses her own bad behavior toward them. But she can't believe this regarding Flash, beause she's falling in love with him -- and coming to know him too well to maintain her self-delusion. So she instead sees him as an exception -- a "credit to his race" in mid-20th century terms.
So yes -- she's a very biased observer.
¡Ooh! ¡Sunset Shimmer on the Planet of the Apes! ¡I have to read this!
This almost engaging in reproductive activity reminds me about something:
When we switched from oviparity to viviparity in the Early Cretaceous, we had to start periodically relining our uterii so that embryos would have a suitable substrate for embedding. Some eutherian mammals (placental mammals), including Perissodactyls evolved the ability to recycle their uterine lining. Unfortunately, primates must discharge their uterine lining.
It seems plausible that Sunset Shimmer might start to menstruate before she learns about menstruation. I wonder what her response would be to apparently hemorrhaging through her reproductive tract.
6829753
One of the great and wonderful surprises which greeted Sunset Shimmer in her exile was the Human menstrual cycle. By the point at which the story begins, she's been Human for a while, so she's more or less used (and resigned) to it. But it must have scared the heck out of her the first time (even though one of the first things she would have researched was her own new form). It probably still rather revolts her.
On the plus side, she doesn't have an externally-obvious estrus cycle any more ... her ovulation is covert. That means she doesn't have to suppress the smell and the sexual desires for three days every three weeks, as she did as a Pony mare.
Instead, she has constant sexual desire. Which is one of the reasons she's a bit paranoid about most Human males. We take this for granted, but it's one of the odd things about our genus.
Sunset Shimmer is highly-intelligent and does not like the idea of losing emotional control -- these are character traits she shares with her somethingth-cousin Twilight Sparkle. She also comes from pretty much the same cultural background, and has very similar sexual morals.
So the fact that she's fooling around with Flash is a strong sign of her attachment to him.
More about which in the next chapter or two.
Being in the human world seems to have affected the way Sunset thinks as well, perhaps, since she keeps using 'Kind' instead of 'tribe' when referring to ponies.
6829940
This is an aside:
FiMFiction has a bug which prevents notifications if replies are not in the same chapter as the original comment.
This is a response:
The Menarche of Sunset Shimmer might make a good side story:
After going through the mirror, Sunset Shimmer finds herself an ape. She learns that this kind of ape is called human. She does a little research for determining what humans eat and what the males look like without clothes —— ¡The males have small pendulous genitals!
She leads a double life; for learning about the humans and their world, she pretends to be in her midteens and matriculates as a freshwoman in the local high school; while she lives the life of an independent adult woman in her early 20s out of school.
A fortnight after arriving, she is in class, when she notices a spreading bloodstain on her skirt and realizes that she sits in a puddle of her own blood. She screams in panic. The whole class looks toward her. Flash Sentry sees the problem and selflessly sacrifices his blazer for wrapping her and the teacher Cranky Doodle walks Sunset Shimmer to School-Nurse Read heart.
Red Heart explains menstruation to Sunset Shimmer and gives to her menstrual pads. She explains how to use them. She gives Sunset Shimmer a change of clothing and sent her home with a note to her parents, admonishing them for not explaining menstruation. She told Sunset Shimmer to see her when she returns for a talk.
Red Heart wanted to talk to Sunset about human reproduction to Sunset Shimmer because she did not want Sunset to end up pregnant with no idea how it happened because she has no idea how reproduction works; that happens all too often. She remembers that 1 time she had a 7-month pregnant girl who neither know that she was pregnant, nor knew what pregnancy is because she believed that storks delivered babies.
Cranky planned to finish the lesson and then clean the seat after class, but the seat was clean:
After Cranky and Sunset left, Flash Sentry cleaned the seat. When some of the other students started making fun of Sunset, he declared, "¡If anyape has a problem with Sunset, you have a problem with me!". By the time Cranky returned Flash quieted the class, so that Cranky could resume the lesson immediately.
On the way home, Sunset thought about how disgusting these apes are. The only way that these apes could get more revolting is if they start throwing around their own poop.
That would make an interesting side story.
6830968
The menstruation story strikes me as a good idea. No matter what she's read, this has to hit Sunset as an unpleasant surprise, because it's bleeding and it's something Ponies don't do.
And it would be interesting if Flash did something nice for her before they were even dating. And wholly in character for Flash. Back then in my verse, he would have been either with Lyra or just making friends with Lyra -- the first of the three "horse women" (actually, displaced Equestrian mares) for whom he falls.
6830048
"Tribe" versus "Kind" -- "Tribe" is political, it refers to that type of Pony as a polity or faction. The Three Tribes were a loose confederation or (originally) tight alliance in the Old Homelands just before the Coming of the Ice; under the stress of the Great Hunger and Migration they nearly fell apart into three warring Tribes again; but (loosely) reunified in Equestria. In my history, they weren't a true nation until after the Age of Discord, over a thousand years later, and then they united under the Sisters. The last Tribal war was the Lunar Rebellion, in the early 7th century YOH.
"Kind" is simply a biological description. I use it because the Ponies have a taxonomy very different from any other mammalian species -- they have five interfertile morphs (plus Alicorns, who Fusion tacked on long after the Eldren created the original Five Kinds) and each individual is decisively of one morph or another, which may not be the same morph as their parents.
The Five Kinds are: Earth Ponies, Pegasi, Unicorns, Flutter Ponies / Changelings, and Sea Ponies / Deep Ponies / Merponies / Kelpies / Sirens / etc. The complexity regarding the last two are that the Flutter Ponies have been Twisted into the Changelings, and the Sea Ponies diversified into all sorts of sub-Kinds.
In the far future -- what I call "the Poniternity" -- the Kinds will further diversify into numerous variant morphs, under the adaptive pressure of expansion into many different planetary environments and high-tech genegineers with entirely too much time on their hands. The Earth Ponies will produce (among other things) the Paradise Culture and the Rock Ponies; the Pegasi the Nocturnae and the Highdwellers; the Unicorns the Beautiful Ponies, the Far Walkers and the Minds; the Changelings the New Flutter Ponies and the Soul Dancers; and the Sea Ponies the Spaceselks, Joveselks and Flame Ponies. More or less, subject to change with my ideas.
The Poniternity is essentially a Ponification of my main science fiction universe.
6837057
Interesting.
Personally, I've entertained the idea that the Sirens are the seapony equivalent of Alicorns—larger than the norm, with extremely powerful abilities compared to a regular pony and (perhaps) an equally long lifespan. In that framing, the Dazzlings could be the lost princesses of some hidden Kelpie enclave who went to war against Equestria and were defeated and banished by Star Swirl.
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I still figure that Sunset Shimmer could fail to stumble upon information about menstruation before it happens. That would make it extra terrifying for her. Unless she has experience with another species which cannot recycle its uterine lining such as dogs, she may not know that uterine lining could just spontaneously exist the body. Menstruation blindsiding her could be very horrifying.
Flash Sentry sacrificing his jacket for wrapping around the waist of Sunset Shimmer and then cleaned up the mess on the seat. He stops the other teenagers from making fun of Sunset Shimmer. He is a nice guy, so this seems in character for him.
I thought of a title for the story:
The Menarche of Sunset Shimmer
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The same could be said for the Kelpie Queens, or whatever they call them. Cassie the Kelpie was able to psychically overpower Twilight Sparkle (Alicorn), Fluttershy (incredibly powerful psychic), Pinkie Pie (precognitive psychic), Applejack (strongwilled) and a whole town including the other two Element Bearers and numerous backup Element Bearers. Her only mistake was to pitch her attack purely against Ponies; she didn't realize that Fluttershy had what amounted to her own little Hive and that the other Element Bearers had familiars. That's Alicorn-level power.
Well, to be fair, humans kinda do suck compared to ponies as depicted in MLP
really?
I kinda liked the more widespread idea that ponies are much more casual with sex, seeing how they probably have no STD and almost definitely have no religious taboos*. Probably no problem with pregnancies either, outside of specific times.
In short - none of the reasons humans do abstain from sex.
I mean with this whole "duty in Marriage" you might as well go full-catholic and add "solely for procreation" or some other stuff like this.
*Both because there is hardly any religion outside some Celestia-related interjections, and because taboos in human religions do arise from biological problems with casual sex (i.e. pregnancy & STDs).
I mean, OK, it's my headcanon, so feel free to disregard it entirely, but I honestly find this to be a much weirder take on pony sexuality.
How do you figure that?
Well, that was quite an entertaining read.
Though I don't agree with much of authors' ideas, they are at least well thought-out and quite eloquently put into words, if at times at the cost of pacing. I hope there will be more discussion on differences between ponies and humans* both moral and biological and that magic theory will touch upon other ponying-up and maybe even SciTwi.
*wonder why do you actually capitalize those terms? I mean traditionally species or nationalities or whatever are lowercased, so there must be a reason for capitalization, right?
Well, this is bittersweet. A beautiful moment of intimacy, but knowing what's coming... Oh, Sunset, you poor, deluded fool. She's not just going to ruin this, she's going to be devastated in return. And it's going to happen before stealing the Element of Magic. Flash was her ex by the time Twilight came through the portal.
Ans thank you for the flashbacks to Young Frankenstein.
Much appreciated, no sarcasm.
Wonder why this fic has so many downvotes...it's rather splendid.
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Such is Sunset's opinion -- that of a young mare, a virgin, raised as a gentlefilly at Canterlot during a very civilized era, yes. Generally-speaking, public sex magic is the sort of thing one expects of a fairly barbaric or at best early-civilized culture -- one which has as yet no very firm boundaries between private and public life. Historically, most Human cultures in our world phased such rituals out from genuinely public spaces in the Bronze Age, though they made a return in a somewhat less public manner in Medieval and Early Modern chivarees and various other public showings of marital consummations (generally among aristocrats).
It's not actually illegal (and hence not "warlockry" in the formal sense). It's just something that Sunset -- and most other Ponies of her time, place and social class, would find to be repulsive. And very few Ponies in modern Equestria would consider it a respectable practice. It's the sort of thing decadent aristocrats might indulge in, aided by social-climbing unscrupulous types, all the way down to actual prostitutes. Think Aleister Crowley and the Order of the Golden Dawn.
Celestia -- who is not a prude -- sees it as a very bad idea, one likely to corrupt the practicioner. And while Sunset has rebelled against Celestia, she was trained by Celestia, and considers her very wise.
Note Sunset Shimmer's nice little moral distinction here. While she's horrified at the idea of sex magic rituals, she's not at all horrified at the notion of measuring magical surges and empowerment of herself which may have been facilitated by sex acts with someone she loves -- nor of trying to work this into her plan to regain her magic. Is she perhaps a wee bit hyporitical? Technically, though, she is there using a similar principle to the Elements of Harmony -- the Magic of Friendship. In her case, romantic and sexual love.
There are a lot of assumptions piled upon assumptions here. I'll discuss them in order:
"Ponies are much more casual with sex" - Neither shown nor implied on the Show, and indeed much of what is shown and implied is opposite to that. The Ponies are incredibly sentimental about romantic matters -- that sort of sentimentality does not go well with a "Let's bang, why not?" mentality. We've seen romantic and sexual jealousy, both done seriously and played for comedy, in more than one episode (Carrot Cake desperately trying to figure out how he's the father of a Pegasus and a Unicorn when he and his wife are both Earth Ponies; Rarity wanting Trenderhoof and fearing that Applejack wants him). We've seen intense romantic idealism as major story elements (Shining x Cadance in two Action double episodes; the long arc between Spike and Rarity). Twilight Sparkle, who in a casual-sex society could and would get laid by just smiling at any random stallion she wanted (beautiful brilliant wealthy Princess, remember?), instead obsesses over the Humanoid Flash Sentry and blushes when he HOLDS her freaking HAND! This does not look at all like a casual-sex culture.
This actually looks like the Anglosphere in the Late Victorian Era to early Jazz Age, with the difference that they are a lot kinder toward sexual deviance (no one is actually shocked by Spike x Rarity or even Fluttershy x Discord; or for that matter Lyra x Bon-Bon, and don't think they're keeping this secret by claiming to be "best friends," which I'm sure they are in addition to being lesbians totally in love with each other, with the kind of eternal flaming love that would mean either one would gladly die for the other if need be).
The Humanoidverse -- the society of what I call the North Amareican Federation -- gives off more of a 1950's to early 1960's vibe to me. The sort of culture shown in the Archie Comicsverse. Which is hardly a casual-sex culture, but is rather more willing to accept some degree of open promiscuity.
"... probably no STD's ..."
I'm turning the stage over to the Pink One's maternal grandmother, a brilliant and very experienced midwife and healer, Goldie Pie.
GOLDIE: "A sexually-transmitted or "venereal" disease is not a magical curse imposed upon the sinful (though some are indeed magical in their origins or effects. What an STD is, plain and simple, is a disease which can be or is primarily transmitted by sexual contact.
"Sex is a very intimate activity. Yes, in the emotional sense, but I'm more interested here in the physical. You are kissing somepony, rubbing all over them, and exchanging bodily fluids from your genitals (and yes, the mare's vaginal fluids get smeared on various parts of the stallion, even though his fluid contribution is more, eh, dramatic).
"There is sometimes even bloodstream to bloodstream contact. No, I'm not talking about the stuff that goes on in some of the weirder houses in Canterlot's Floating World, though that would do it too. Do you have little cuts in your mouth -- the sort you can get without noticing them from chomping down on an uncooked oat or improperly-prepared flower or overbaked bread? Do either of you have sores or abrasions on your genitals? Are you just a little too physically enthusiastic when having intercourse? Congratulations. Bloodstream contamination is now possible.
"Now, aside from the fact that there are diseases, such as herpes, contagious metritis and viral arteritis, that will happily spread through genital contact, any other disease that can be spread by less intimate contact than sex, can generally also be spread through sex. Skin diseases, respiratory diseases, and bacteria and virus that can live in spittle will have ample opportunities to spread through sexual contact.
"I'm assuming that you want to kiss and caress your lover, right? Otherwise there's not really much point to the whole exercise. And I doubt very much that you go stepping out together wearing diving suits with condom attachments. Though, come to think it, I may have just invented a whole new perversion here. Well, Jordan told you I was brilliant."
You are, Goldie Pie. You are.
In short -- yes, the Ponies have sexually-transmitted diseases. Because Ponies have diseases. That's canonical, btw. There are at least four episodes that mention contagious diseases and the health care system.
GOLDIE: "If there were no problems with pregnancies, I'd be out of a job.
"Oh. You mean having unplanned pregnancies. Huh.
"I'm guessing you're not a Pony. And definitely not a mare, of whatever weird species you happen to be.
"This is part of my First Talk, so it's easy to explain.
"Part of the Miracle of Life is that you're going to be in estrus for three days out of every twenty-one, on the average, unless you already have a cupcake in the oven. Now, when you're in estrus, your body's going to want to have sex. Yes, even the good little filles and distinguished elderly mares. And crazy old midwives like me. You in the back, stop giggling. This is serious.
"'Body will want to' is the key phrase here. Because, unless you're married and trying to get pregnant, you really do not want to have sex at this time. See, if you have sex on your cycle, you are very likely to get pregnant. Which is probably not a good thing if you're an unmarried mare, let alone some poor innocent little filly who's just overwhelmed by all her shiny new sexuality.
"I know somepony who got caught that way -- and I won't say who, because she's famous and I keep confidentiality. Oh, and I respect the heck out of her, too -- what, did you think that this only happened to "bad" fillies?
"The Age of Wonders had some very good contraceptives, but that was four thousand years ago and they're all past their sell-by date now. What we have is suppressors, which you're also going to use if you want to avoid having every colt and stallion -- yes, even the really icky ones -- staring after you when you walk by -- and all their female kin, loves and friends, glaring at you in a very unfriendly manner.
"Suppressors are better than nothing -- they'll damp down your own desire and your marescent -- but they reduce your fertility, they don't completely block ovulation, as did those ancient Age of Wonders pills. And you're still horny -- just not as much. So you still need to be careful.
"Be glad you aren't limited to maskers. That's all we had until a couple hundred years ago, and those are basially just perfumes to drown out the maresent and soothing oils and creams to reduce the visible inflamation. Ever wonder why society used to be more sexually-segregated, and stallions had less civil rights? Yep.
"So yes, Mr. Alien Guy, there is a 'problem with pregnancies.'
"And the day there isn't, there'll be another sort of problem. Such as: 'Where's the next generation coming from?'"
Very good speech, Goldie. I'll add to this that no contraceptive ever made, not even in the Age of Wonders, could cure heartbreak, which is very likely to happen to anypony, male or female, who goes cruising with the local Fast Set in the assumption that disease and pregnancy is all they have to worry about.
No, you're missing the context. What Sunset was thinking was that Sex should normally grow out of Love; or at LEAST duty in Marriage. Meaning that if she accepted an arranged marriage, she would try her level best to be a good wife to her husband even if she didn't (initially, or even ever) love him. Including being a good lover to her husband. Not that she should just "lie back and think of Equestria!" (anyway, as you've seen, Sunset prefers to be on top).
Sunset Shimmer, for all her rebelliousness and other sundry character flaws, is a fundamentally-honorable product of her culture, Equestria; and her subculture, the Canterlot scholar-gentry. The same subculture that produced Moon Dancer, Minuette, Lemon Hearts, Lyra Heartstrings (though Moon Dancer and Lyra are both major weirdos) -- and Twilight Freaking The Chosen One Sparkle her own sparkly self.
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I think that it's because I've pretty much had to post it to clop folders and this is more of a philosophical, strongly-sentimental and explicitly-erotic romantic tragedy. There's sex, yes, but there's also a lot of characterization, setting and plot. Not just the kind under a Pony's tail, either.
Plus, some of my favorite readers won't read M-rated stuff.
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The capitalization rule I follow with sapient species is based on that employed by J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. And one always capitalizes nations -- they are proper nouns. Thus "American" rather than "american."
I figure that since these pastel-colored apes are like ponies, so unlike the barbaric dull-colored apes of Tellus, are intact, but you story does not give sufficient detail. ¿Do the apes in you 'verse have sexual genital mutilation? or ¿are you apes intact?
6850044
Are you asking me if Flash's been circumcised? Um ... I don't know? (Though Sunset presumably does!)
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I ask whether these apes sexually mutilate their genitals. A subquestion, if they do, is whether Flash Sentry has sexually mutilated genitals.
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I truly didn't consider the issue. Um, probably at least some of their sects do. And of course amputation of the foreskin is sometimes medically necessary (this was more common before modern antibiotics).
If you care, I'm 51 and was raised Jewish, so ... draw the obvious conclusion.
6849870
human and pony IMHO definitely count. Besides, what proper nouns does word "human" or "pony" would derive from?
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I just hoped the apes would be less barbaric than us. Most fanfiction has the ponies as more civilized, although, I have come accross barbaric ponies. with mass-geldings.