6837271

The same could be said for the Kelpie Queens, or whatever they call them. Cassie the Kelpie was able to psychically overpower Twilight Sparkle (Alicorn), Fluttershy (incredibly powerful psychic), Pinkie Pie (precognitive psychic), Applejack (strongwilled) and a whole town including the other two Element Bearers and numerous backup Element Bearers. Her only mistake was to pitch her attack purely against Ponies; she didn't realize that Fluttershy had what amounted to her own little Hive and that the other Element Bearers had familiars. That's Alicorn-level power.

Well, that was quite an entertaining read.
Though I don't agree with much of authors' ideas, they are at least well thought-out and quite eloquently put into words, if at times at the cost of pacing. I hope there will be more discussion on differences between ponies and humans* both moral and biological and that magic theory will touch upon other ponying-up and maybe even SciTwi.

*wonder why do you actually capitalize those terms? I mean traditionally species or nationalities or whatever are lowercased, so there must be a reason for capitalization, right?

Well, this is bittersweet. A beautiful moment of intimacy, but knowing what's coming... Oh, Sunset, you poor, deluded fool. She's not just going to ruin this, she's going to be devastated in return. And it's going to happen before stealing the Element of Magic. Flash was her ex by the time Twilight came through the portal.

Sweet Mystery of Life

Ans thank you for the flashbacks to Young Frankenstein.

Much appreciated, no sarcasm.

Wonder why this fic has so many downvotes...it's rather splendid.

6846748

Sunset still found the idea of sexual rituals repulsive. They offended against the morals she had learned as an Equestrian filly, a scion of the scholar-gentry of Canterlot. Sex was ideally part of Love, or at least one's duty in Marriage. It was not to be used like that as a tool of spellcraft. That was barbaric and vile, foul warlockry.

really?

Such is Sunset's opinion -- that of a young mare, a virgin, raised as a gentlefilly at Canterlot during a very civilized era, yes. Generally-speaking, public sex magic is the sort of thing one expects of a fairly barbaric or at best early-civilized culture -- one which has as yet no very firm boundaries between private and public life. Historically, most Human cultures in our world phased such rituals out from genuinely public spaces in the Bronze Age, though they made a return in a somewhat less public manner in Medieval and Early Modern chivarees and various other public showings of marital consummations (generally among aristocrats).

It's not actually illegal (and hence not "warlockry" in the formal sense). It's just something that Sunset -- and most other Ponies of her time, place and social class, would find to be repulsive. And very few Ponies in modern Equestria would consider it a respectable practice. It's the sort of thing decadent aristocrats might indulge in, aided by social-climbing unscrupulous types, all the way down to actual prostitutes. Think Aleister Crowley and the Order of the Golden Dawn.

Celestia -- who is not a prude -- sees it as a very bad idea, one likely to corrupt the practicioner. And while Sunset has rebelled against Celestia, she was trained by Celestia, and considers her very wise.

Note Sunset Shimmer's nice little moral distinction here. While she's horrified at the idea of sex magic rituals, she's not at all horrified at the notion of measuring magical surges and empowerment of herself which may have been facilitated by sex acts with someone she loves -- nor of trying to work this into her plan to regain her magic. Is she perhaps a wee bit hyporitical? Technically, though, she is there using a similar principle to the Elements of Harmony -- the Magic of Friendship. In her case, romantic and sexual love.

I kinda liked the more widespread idea that ponies are much more casual with sex, seeing how they probably have no STD and almost definitely have no religious taboos*. Probably no problem with pregnancies either, outside of specific times.

In short - none of the reasons humans do abstain from sex.

*Both because there is hardly any religion outside some Celestia-related interjections, and because taboos in human religions do arise from biological problems with casual sex (i.e. pregnancy & STDs).

There are a lot of assumptions piled upon assumptions here. I'll discuss them in order:

"Ponies are much more casual with sex" - Neither shown nor implied on the Show, and indeed much of what is shown and implied is opposite to that. The Ponies are incredibly sentimental about romantic matters -- that sort of sentimentality does not go well with a "Let's bang, why not?" mentality. We've seen romantic and sexual jealousy, both done seriously and played for comedy, in more than one episode (Carrot Cake desperately trying to figure out how he's the father of a Pegasus and a Unicorn when he and his wife are both Earth Ponies; Rarity wanting Trenderhoof and fearing that Applejack wants him). We've seen intense romantic idealism as major story elements (Shining x Cadance in two Action double episodes; the long arc between Spike and Rarity). Twilight Sparkle, who in a casual-sex society could and would get laid by just smiling at any random stallion she wanted (beautiful brilliant wealthy Princess, remember?), instead obsesses over the Humanoid Flash Sentry and blushes when he HOLDS her freaking HAND! This does not look at all like a casual-sex culture.

This actually looks like the Anglosphere in the Late Victorian Era to early Jazz Age, with the difference that they are a lot kinder toward sexual deviance (no one is actually shocked by Spike x Rarity or even Fluttershy x Discord; or for that matter Lyra x Bon-Bon, and don't think they're keeping this secret by claiming to be "best friends," which I'm sure they are in addition to being lesbians totally in love with each other, with the kind of eternal flaming love that would mean either one would gladly die for the other if need be).

The Humanoidverse -- the society of what I call the North Amareican Federation -- gives off more of a 1950's to early 1960's vibe to me. The sort of culture shown in the Archie Comicsverse. Which is hardly a casual-sex culture, but is rather more willing to accept some degree of open promiscuity.

"... probably no STD's ..."

I'm turning the stage over to the Pink One's maternal grandmother, a brilliant and very experienced midwife and healer, Goldie Pie.

GOLDIE: "A sexually-transmitted or "venereal" disease is not a magical curse imposed upon the sinful (though some are indeed magical in their origins or effects. What an STD is, plain and simple, is a disease which can be or is primarily transmitted by sexual contact.

"Sex is a very intimate activity. Yes, in the emotional sense, but I'm more interested here in the physical. You are kissing somepony, rubbing all over them, and exchanging bodily fluids from your genitals (and yes, the mare's vaginal fluids get smeared on various parts of the stallion, even though his fluid contribution is more, eh, dramatic).

"There is sometimes even bloodstream to bloodstream contact. No, I'm not talking about the stuff that goes on in some of the weirder houses in Canterlot's Floating World, though that would do it too. Do you have little cuts in your mouth -- the sort you can get without noticing them from chomping down on an uncooked oat or improperly-prepared flower or overbaked bread? Do either of you have sores or abrasions on your genitals? Are you just a little too physically enthusiastic when having intercourse? Congratulations. Bloodstream contamination is now possible.

"Now, aside from the fact that there are diseases, such as herpes, contagious metritis and viral arteritis, that will happily spread through genital contact, any other disease that can be spread by less intimate contact than sex, can generally also be spread through sex. Skin diseases, respiratory diseases, and bacteria and virus that can live in spittle will have ample opportunities to spread through sexual contact.

"I'm assuming that you want to kiss and caress your lover, right? Otherwise there's not really much point to the whole exercise. And I doubt very much that you go stepping out together wearing diving suits with condom attachments. Though, come to think it, I may have just invented a whole new perversion here. Well, Jordan told you I was brilliant."

You are, Goldie Pie. You are.

In short -- yes, the Ponies have sexually-transmitted diseases. Because Ponies have diseases. That's canonical, btw. There are at least four episodes that mention contagious diseases and the health care system.

Probably no problem with pregnancies either, outside of specific times.

GOLDIE: "If there were no problems with pregnancies, I'd be out of a job.

"Oh. You mean having unplanned pregnancies. Huh.

"I'm guessing you're not a Pony. And definitely not a mare, of whatever weird species you happen to be.

"This is part of my First Talk, so it's easy to explain.

"Part of the Miracle of Life is that you're going to be in estrus for three days out of every twenty-one, on the average, unless you already have a cupcake in the oven. Now, when you're in estrus, your body's going to want to have sex. Yes, even the good little filles and distinguished elderly mares. And crazy old midwives like me. You in the back, stop giggling. This is serious.

"'Body will want to' is the key phrase here. Because, unless you're married and trying to get pregnant, you really do not want to have sex at this time. See, if you have sex on your cycle, you are very likely to get pregnant. Which is probably not a good thing if you're an unmarried mare, let alone some poor innocent little filly who's just overwhelmed by all her shiny new sexuality.

"I know somepony who got caught that way -- and I won't say who, because she's famous and I keep confidentiality. Oh, and I respect the heck out of her, too -- what, did you think that this only happened to "bad" fillies?

"The Age of Wonders had some very good contraceptives, but that was four thousand years ago and they're all past their sell-by date now. What we have is suppressors, which you're also going to use if you want to avoid having every colt and stallion -- yes, even the really icky ones -- staring after you when you walk by -- and all their female kin, loves and friends, glaring at you in a very unfriendly manner.

"Suppressors are better than nothing -- they'll damp down your own desire and your marescent -- but they reduce your fertility, they don't completely block ovulation, as did those ancient Age of Wonders pills. And you're still horny -- just not as much. So you still need to be careful.

"Be glad you aren't limited to maskers. That's all we had until a couple hundred years ago, and those are basially just perfumes to drown out the maresent and soothing oils and creams to reduce the visible inflamation. Ever wonder why society used to be more sexually-segregated, and stallions had less civil rights? Yep.

"So yes, Mr. Alien Guy, there is a 'problem with pregnancies.'

"And the day there isn't, there'll be another sort of problem. Such as: 'Where's the next generation coming from?'"

Very good speech, Goldie. I'll add to this that no contraceptive ever made, not even in the Age of Wonders, could cure heartbreak, which is very likely to happen to anypony, male or female, who goes cruising with the local Fast Set in the assumption that disease and pregnancy is all they have to worry about.

I mean with this whole "duty in Marriage" you might as well go full-catholic and add "solely for procreation" or some other stuff like this.

No, you're missing the context. What Sunset was thinking was that Sex should normally grow out of Love; or at LEAST duty in Marriage. Meaning that if she accepted an arranged marriage, she would try her level best to be a good wife to her husband even if she didn't (initially, or even ever) love him. Including being a good lover to her husband. Not that she should just "lie back and think of Equestria!" (anyway, as you've seen, Sunset prefers to be on top).

Sunset Shimmer, for all her rebelliousness and other sundry character flaws, is a fundamentally-honorable product of her culture, Equestria; and her subculture, the Canterlot scholar-gentry. The same subculture that produced Moon Dancer, Minuette, Lemon Hearts, Lyra Heartstrings (though Moon Dancer and Lyra are both major weirdos) -- and Twilight Freaking The Chosen One Sparkle her own sparkly self.

6847614

I think that it's because I've pretty much had to post it to clop folders and this is more of a philosophical, strongly-sentimental and explicitly-erotic romantic tragedy. There's sex, yes, but there's also a lot of characterization, setting and plot. Not just the kind under a Pony's tail, either.

Plus, some of my favorite readers won't read M-rated stuff.

6846772

The capitalization rule I follow with sapient species is based on that employed by J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. And one always capitalizes nations -- they are proper nouns. Thus "American" rather than "american."

I figure that since these pastel-colored apes are like ponies, so unlike the barbaric dull-colored apes of Tellus, are intact, but you story does not give sufficient detail. ¿Do the apes in you 'verse have sexual genital mutilation? or ¿are you apes intact?

6850044

Are you asking me if Flash's been circumcised? Um ... I don't know? (Though Sunset presumably does!)

6850051

I ask whether these apes sexually mutilate their genitals. A subquestion, if they do, is whether Flash Sentry has sexually mutilated genitals.

6850088

I truly didn't consider the issue. Um, probably at least some of their sects do. And of course amputation of the foreskin is sometimes medically necessary (this was more common before modern antibiotics).

If you care, I'm 51 and was raised Jewish, so ... draw the obvious conclusion.

6849870

Derivatives of proper names used with acquired common
meaning, or no longer identified with such names, are set
lowercased. Since this depends upon general and long-continued
usage, a more definite and all-inclusive rule cannot be formulated
in advance.

human and pony IMHO definitely count. Besides, what proper nouns does word "human" or "pony" would derive from?

6850103

I just hoped the apes would be less barbaric than us. Most fanfiction has the ponies as more civilized, although, I have come accross barbaric ponies. with mass-geldings.

6850129

I've practically never seen anyone write "english people" or "french nation," I've always seen it as "English people" or "French nation." The premise both Tolkien and C.S. Lewis were using was if that there were multiple technologically advanced sapient species or biologically-distinct races (as there were in Middle-Earth and Narnia) they also deserved proper-noun status. For that matter, "Caucasian" or "White," "Negro" or "Black," etc. etc. has frequently been used; and in Equestria, "Earth Pony," "Pegasus" and "Unicorn."

6850137

We in the West don't mass-circumsise any more on a national medical system level, though the Jews of course still do male circumcision. Female circumcision is illegal but still widely practiced by some Muslim groups in the West.

The two forms of circumcision are different -- female circumcision is analogous to cutting off the penis, as the clitoris and penis are directly analogous organs. (Hence Sunset's humorous thought about "little heads kissing" -- she's well aware of fundamental anatomy, and would have especially researched this before attempting such a level of sexual intimacy).

Ponies wouldn't circumcise males if they could avoid it, because it would leave the unfortunate stallion permanently unsheathed, which would be embarrassing and bizarre-looking from their POV. Female circumcision would be Right Out.

6850146 huh.
Well, Im more used to lowercasing, so maybe it's an acquired case. I would, usually write stuff like "Adamites" as in derived from proper name of Adam as uppercase, but species names as lowercase.
What I mean is, I am used to capitalization denoting emphasis and important words, so everytime I see "Pony" it sort of jolts me while I try to understand why it's so significant.

As to big post, let me quickly adress few points, and then I'll try to go into stuff in more details in a few hours:

Generally-speaking, public sex magic is the sort of thing one expects of a fairly barbaric or at best early-civilized culture

For two reasons; (a) magic doesn't work, so magic in general is reserved for earlier cultures who have no idea what they're doing and (b) because sex is taboo for hygienic and family-planning reasons as I outlined earlier.
Not because it is intrinsically a bad, primitive or private thing.
In fact, as you noted yourself, pretty much nothing is really private about sex in our culture save for the act itself.

Twilight Sparkle, who in a casual-sex society could and would get laid by just smiling at any random stallion she wanted

Yup. If she wanted, yes, definitely. But since she is a huge nerd who in a friendship-oriented culture while being tutored by embodiment of friendship (bearer of all six elements!) had no friends, we can safely assume she's not interested.

We've seen intense romantic idealism as major story elements

Casual sex in no way precludes romanticism. Once you separate lust from love nothing would preclude you from being a total romantic and being in high, knight-on-lady love with your ideal, while going out every night for a one-night stands - those would just be entirely separate things. If anything, love of Spike to Rarity, who is of different species and likely not at all sexually compatible can serve to illustrate this.

. Because Ponies have diseases

Yes, they do. Easily curable, non-threatening, no-long term-consequences played-for-laughs diseases. If worst you could get from unprotected sex is a cold, no one would even bother with condoms.
In the same way you can say ponies have war based on the Appleloosa episode.

thing on contraceptives

Well, if you think that culture that has the technology instant photos in addition to magic that can de-age people and teleport, did not invent decent contraception ages ago... it definitely is your right to do so, there is unlikely be a canon evidence one way or the other. But I think it would be rather weird.
In any way, one would assume that ponies can only get pregnant during estrus, but want to have sex more-or-less constantly like humans, otherwise their culture and psychology would be rather significantly different.

heartbreak

Heartbreak does happen and is inevitable no matter what sex culture one looks at. But more-or-less it arises from an implicit promise and expectation of exclusivity, which is a cultural thing reinforced by essentially fear of transmitting diseases, just very, very deeply reinforced by something like five thousand years of cultural evolution.

In short, I strongly prefer the pony sex culture as it is depicted in Winningverse and recent shortfic Coitus Interruptus. Not necessarily something to sneeze at, but definitely with much less shame and taboo-ness associated with the act.

6850160

Sexual genital mutilation in both sexes follows a wide spectrum from ritual nicks in both sexes to removal of external genital such as oriental castration (occidental castration leaves the penis, but oriental castration removes the penis and testes), and the most extreme forms of female sexual genital mutilation. This cherrypicking to generate a false dichotomy of picking the extreme of 1 and the average of the other for creating a false distinction when the 2 are equivalent is repulsive.

6850181

Gotcha. I want to point out that at no point is the story about any form of genital mutilation. Neither Sunset nor Flash wish to mutilate any genitals!

6849842 Following on a total tangent from your Lyra / Bon-Bon reference, I was planning a story several months ago in which they really were just best friends. Very good best friends. But totally not in love. Despite everypony's (and I mean everypony's) assumptions - which got to the point where their friends had even booked a spot for their wedding!

Though, now I'm wondering how other ponies would interpret the signs we take to show they're in love. Pinkie would exuberantly call any number of ponies her bestest friends and talk about what their friendship means to her; I could even see Fluttershy or Rarity doing it with somepony they trusted. And, of course, we've seen all the onscreen hugging. That's all going on between (mostly) mares who show no signs of being sexually or romantically interested in each other. Yes, the camera plays up Lyra and Bon-Bon's relationship - but in-universe, is it really that unique?

I guess another question would be, how are things between mares and stallions? Have we seen a mare and stallion talking about friendship, or hugging each other, when they aren't romantically interested in each other?

6850363

Pony mares are definitely more physically-affectionate toward one another than are Human women, on the average. This may be an Equestrian thing, or a Pony thing. Applejack, in particular, tends to be physically-affectionate toward her friends. We do not often see this sort of behavior between mares and stallions in public, nor between stallions and stallions. My guess is that mare / stallion is seen as too sexual in its implications (another reason to see Equestrian culture as fairly prudish compared to the modern West) while with stallion / stallion, there's the reserve which is the last remnant of a time when stallions used to fight one another on a fairly-regular basis (even though modern Equestria isn't that violent).

We do occasionally see strong mare / stallion affection, but this is generally in the context of what is obviously meant to be romantic / sexual relationships. Most notably, Shining Armor x Cadance, Carrot Cake x Cup Cake (both married pairs), and some background Ponies, notably Golden Harvest ("Carrot Top") Carrot and Written Script (strongly inferred to be courting or married in some scenes).

That was very hot and heartwarming. I will be sad when the relationship goes south.

Out of curiosity, have you read the book "Sunset Shimmer's Time to Shine"? It's also about Sunset trying to figure out how magic works in the human world.

6852329

That was very hot and heartwarming.

I'm glad you said that. Such was exactly the effect I was aiming for -- romantic erotica.

Sunset Shimmer will also be sad.

No, never read the book. May someday, though.

6850171

Yup. If she wanted, yes, definitely. But since she is a huge nerd who in a friendship-oriented culture while being tutored by embodiment of friendship (bearer of all six elements!) had no friends, we can safely assume she's not interested.

This totally does not follow, especially if Pony culture worked the way you claim. If there is a complete separation between Love and Lust then Twilight would not regard Sex as in any way related to Friendship, nor would she require that those she would have sex with be Ponies she considered friends. In fact, as was the case in a recent story I read, she might well have been banging random Ponies behind Coffee Joe's.

I have no idea what you mean by "huge nerd" in your mental map of characterization, but you seem to think that it comes without a sex drive. This was never true even in the stereotype -- what was true was that the "nerd" didn't know how to get sex. Somehow I don't think that the personal student of Princess Celestia, later a Princess herself, would have many problems in these regards -- if she was willing to settle for just sex.

The same goes for Sunset Shimmer, who while she only started to Ascend herself recently (and not at all, save for flashes of attention from her Cosmic Self, at the point of my story), is obviously, flamboyantly beautiful.

Casual sex in no way precludes romanticism. Once you separate lust from love nothing would preclude you from being a total romantic and being in high, knight-on-lady love with your ideal, while going out every night for a one-night stands - those would just be entirely separate things.

Casual sex makes romanticism much harder to sustain, requiring the sort of mental and social compartmentalization which is not good for one's sanity in such a major aspect of life, and which would in context of powerful beings in the MLP-verse be a fairly quick ticket to Nightmare. In real life, we usually see this sort of split in the mind of prostitutes, who have to distinguish between clients and lovers.

The actual Medieval warriors who cultivated chivalry toward the highborn and abused the lowborn split it by class -- the highborn were worthy of mercy in battle and respect in love, while the lowborn could be slaughtered and raped at will. This would be a terribly bad attitude for anypony Ascending to the level of Princess to assume, since she would actually find herself in a position of power and authority.

To Sunset Shimmer's credit, while she adopts a racist denigration of Humans as a defense mechanism, she generally does not adopt this attitude toward Flash Sentry (or his family, as we'll see in a later chapter). She is close to Lone-Mad, yet she is still sane enough that she cannot make love to someone and think of him as a mere object. This is a good thing about her character, not the manifestation of unfortunate sexual hangups.

Her ability to love is one of the attributes keeping her from Nightmare; it is not a coincidence that her transformation into a demon comes only after she's driven away and lost Flash. Flash Sentry was helping to keep her sane. (Later on, the Humane Five help keep her sane, and from committing suicide).

Your concept of Sunset Shimmer would have gone utterly mad from loneliness far faster, because having a lover would have been like having a sandwich -- emotionally meaningless.

If anything, love of Spike to Rarity, who is of different species and likely not at all sexually compatible can serve to illustrate this.

You're making some huge assumptions there as well. I never said that the only possible reason for romantic attraction was childbearing. Spike and Rarity consider it far more important that they have very similar attitudes toward life and strongly complement each other -- they are, to put it succinctly, soulmates. They deeply love and admire each other.

And in the end, my Spike and Rarity do have children. PInkie's vision of a family of ki-rin flying over Canterlot.

(continued later)

6850171

Now, as to your theory that serious disease is unknown in Equestria ...

This is an extraordinary claim, as Equestrian medical technology appears to be around where ours was in the 1950's or 1960's, and serious disease was most definitely known in the America of 50-60 years ago. Extraordinarly claims require extraordinary evidence, and I am aware of no such evidence regarding Equestria from the Show or any semi-canon sources. What's more, there is direct evidence in the Show that there is serious disease, to wit:

(1) In "Read It And Weep," we see that there is a hospital located at Ponyville. This hospital seems rather large compared to what would be required if there were no serious diseases in Equestria. It clearly has a bed capacity in at least the dozens; what we see of it is a three-story building with two wings, and there may be more of it in back. Is this entirely for the occasional serious physical injury or mental illness, in a town of a few thousand Ponies?,

pre07.deviantart.net/4b3f/th/pre/i/2012/322/5/2/background___ponyville_hospital__night__by_hawk9mm-d5lebpr.png

(2) In "The Cutie Pox," nopony seems particularly unwilling to believe that Apple Bloom has a fatal and possibly contagious disease. If serious illnesses were unknown in Equestria, why is this the case?

(3) In "Leap of Faith," the Flim Flam Brothers claim to have a miracle tonic that can cure all diseases. They make specific reference to contagious diseases:

Flim: It's a circumstance perceptible by the senses, but in this case, it's the simple fact that: There's ailments all around us in everything we touch and see
[Flam] A sickness that lies waiting there in every breath you breathe
[Flim] Disease will up and grab you as it crawls from land and sea
[Flam] It's amazing how infected that the natural world and all its things can be.

...

Flim: It cures the reins, the spurs, and the Clydesdale fur blight.
Flam: Hooferia and horsentery cured in just a night.
Flim: You've got swollen hooves and hindquarters or terrible bridle-bit cleft.
Flam: Saunter sitz and gallop plop will give your tail some heft.
Flim: Mane loss, hay fever, or terrible tonsillitis.

Some of these are repetitive stress injury caused illnesses, but some of these are very obviously contagious ones -- analogues of diptheria and dysentery, and tonsilitis. The accompanying imagery looks rather horrible.

Yes, Flim and Flam are known liars, but the first set of claims are the ones they advance to outline the problem; the second the specific illnesses they claim to cure. Being myself a telemarketer, I know how to set up a sales pitch: you don't pitch a solution for a nonexistent problem. The problem must sound credible, and they pack a whole revival-tent worth of sick Ponies into their (literal) traveling medicine show.

Given this, we must logically assume that there are severe transmissible diseases in Equestria. As Goldie Pie pointed out (did you even read her sections?) any contagious disease that can be transmitted by any means can usually be transmitted through sex: a Sexually-Transmitted Disease or "venereal" disease is one that is simply so HARD to catch that it requires sexual contact (which is about as close as two Ponies ever get, physically speaking).

Hence Ponies must worry about STD's, and thus the prior sexual history of their sexual partners, just as do Humans.

(to be continued)

6850171

Heartbreak does happen and is inevitable no matter what sex culture one looks at. But more-or-less it arises from an implicit promise and expectation of exclusivity, which is a cultural thing reinforced by essentially fear of transmitting diseases, just very, very deeply reinforced by something like five thousand years of cultural evolution.

The Equestrian culture depicted on the Show is extremely similar to Human. For it to differ in such a major manner as neither implicit promises nor expectations of sexual exclusivity within romantic relationships is an extraordinary claim, again requiring extraordinary evidence. Not only do we not see any evidence of this, we see positive evidence of the contrary -- of expectations of sexual exclusivity.

(1) In "The Ticket Master" and "The Best Night Ever," Rarity's ambition is to win Prince Blueblood's love and get him to marry her. This would be an absolutely impossible ambition if love and marriage are not strongly linked in Equestria; indeed more strongly linked than in any real Human culture. Otherwise, what she would be aiming for is to become Blueblood's mistress. While Rarity's ambition is IMPROBABLE (and indeed turns out to be situationally impossible due to Blueblood's own personality), nopony reacts to her ambition as if it were impossible in Equestrian culture.

(2) In "Baby Cakes," Carrot Cake seems frantically-eager to explain how it is possible for his wife Cup Cake to have given birth to a Pegasus and a Unicorn. Clearly, Carrot expects sexual exclusivity in his relationship with Cup, because if he didn't he would just go "Oh, she probably just had sex with a Pegasus and a Unicorn at some point around the same time, she's pretty popular." This is an obvious explanation, and one which he is denying, because (a) it would hurt his feelings and (b) it would be insulting to his wife -- neither of which would be true in a Free Love Equestria.

(3) In A Canterlot Wedding, Twilight seems awfully-upset at the thought that Shining Armor is about to marry a bitch and awfully-relieved when she realizes that the real Cadance is a really nice mare who deeply loves and intends to take good care of her husband-to-be, for someone whose brother is merely making a formal political and economic marital move, rather than entering an ideally sexually- and romantically-exclusive relationship with his wife-to-be. Which is to say, she obviously assumes that this works just like marriage in OUR world.

(4) In "Simple Ways," Rarity has a crush on Trenderhoof but discovers to her dismay that Trenderhoof has a crush on Applejack. Rarity engages in a radical personal transformation to attract Trenderhoof; Trenderhoof offers to move into Sweet Apple Acres to be close to Applejack. But Applejack doesn't want Trenderhoof.

Now, in Free Love Equestria, the solution is simple. Rarity asks Trend to bang her, he does. Trend asks AJ to bang him, she does. Then Trend just goes off into the sunset, everyone happily sated from the sex.

This does not appear even a possibility -- instead, Rarity acts as if she can't share Trenderhoof, and AJ as if a sexual relationship with somepony would be a serious thing that she would only do with somepony she loved. Notably, both Rarity and Trenderhoof describe their attractions in very strongly romantic terms.

Hence, the evidence is not only not strongly for, but is actually very strongly against, a Free Love Equestria.

For more details (though the original essay should probably be updated to include the material from "Simple Ways),"read "Why I Cannot Believe in a Free Love Equestria."

6854427 still, her favorite passtime is a book-sorting long-weekend. I'd say that sex, casual or otherwise would not be on her priority list.
I mean really, you can substitute "friendship" for "sex" in your text. Being a nerd does not preclude desire for social interactions, and being Celestia's student and adorkable mare certainly helps in that respect, if not as much as with casual sex... and still Twilight was essentially mostly friendless, and what little acquaintances she had, she tended to avoid.

On the other hoof, you could just as easily assume she does indeed have tons of sex, just not on screen. It can be played either way without breaking any canon material.
I do not see how Sunset Shimmer example is even relevant. She had a boyfriend in CHS, one would assume that they easily could have regular intercourse.

Casual sex makes romanticism much harder to sustain,

For us, yes, of course. Because we see sex as important or even sacred thing. For a culture where nudity is norm and sex is not taboo?
It would no more be weird than going for a night of drinking with your buddies without your girlfriend. Doesn't mean that you love her any less, it's just that you want to have some fun with other people on occasion.

mad from loneliness far faster, because having a lover would have been like having a sandwich

Well, yes, yes it would. I strongly maintain that even for people having someone with whom you have regular fucking meetings with no attached social and emotional context is not emotionally fulfilling. Whereas having meaningful social and emotional interactions without sex is definitely a good thing. And in no way one precludes the other, even in a much more casual sex culture. So, in short, yes, having a fuckbuddy would probably be not really meaningful thing for Sunset Shimmer. Nor would it be for anyone else, really.
What would be your point here?

Spike and Rarity consider it far more important that they have very similar attitudes toward life and strongly complement each other

Well, to be fair, Rarity has shown very little interest in Spike one way or the other.

Extraordinarly claims require extraordinary evidence, a

Absence of a thing cannot be proven, only lack of evidence of existence can be shown.
I also took logic 101 ))

In "Read It And Weep," we see that there is a hospital located at Ponyville

The size of Poniville is about 500-600 hundred ponies (you can figure out there are about 100 pegasi from the Hurricane Fluttershy episode, and even if earth ponies outnumber them 5 to 1 it's still like 700 ponies in total). Even given Medieval Europe-like level of disease spread there would NOT be a need of two-wing three-story hospital.
Given that it has a chic clothing store (separate from regular clothing store and a jewelry store), not one, but at least two sweets shops and that it was chosen for Hurricane duty (and was able to swing one-thousand-years anniversary of the Summer Sun Celebrations), one has to assume it is some sort of rural center that works with a large decentralized population for economics of it to even begin to make sense. If you assume that then a large hospital makes sense, if you don't... then a lot of things in Poniville don't.

In "The Cutie Pox," nopony seems particularly unwilling to believe that Apple Bloom has a fatal and possibly contagious disease

Except nopony really believes it to be contagious. I mean there were zero attempts to isolate AB from other ponies, or check the whole class of little fillies and colts she spent half a day with. Even then she is not taken into a hospital, but merely taken back home.
Those are not the action of populace fearful of a deadly epidemic.

In "Leap of Faith," the Flim Flam Brothers claim to have a miracle tonic that can cure all diseases

But the only two diseases they can come up with are hay fever (non-contagious, non-deadly) and tonsillitis for which Wikipedia claims that "The overwhelming majority of people recover completely, with or without medication... within one week". It's really no AIDS or Ebola, this is more of a short inconvenience.
Obviously nopony wants even that, so the miracle-cure all that they over-advertise is still useful (if it worked). But evidence of deadly and contagious diseases it is not.

So, yes, there is evidence that contagious diseases exist (there was even a minor epidemic in Hurricane Fluttershy) but there is little evidence of actual non-curable and/or life-threatening diseases.

6857461

still, her favorite passtime is a book-sorting long-weekend. I'd say that sex, casual or otherwise would not be on her priority list.

It doesn't need to be. What you're not getting here is that Twilight Sparkle isn't of low or even average social status. She's of very HIGH social status. She could have sex simply by asking for it in a Free Love Equestria -- even in my Equestria, she could acquire a string of lovers fairly easily, because stallions would be falling all over each other for the honor of sex with Celestia's special student, let alone Princess Twilight Sparkle.

Now, if Twilight's morals are such that sex with somepony who wasn't at least her extremely dear and special friend would be unthinkable --- as is the case with my Twilight -- then it's harder to find a lover.

On the other hoof, you could just as easily assume she does indeed have tons of sex, just not on screen. It can be played either way without breaking any canon material.

It seems improbable, unless we assume that the sex is so casual that it doesn't even lead to any display of affection afterward. (In which case, why not just masturbate? I do assume she masturbates).

Twilight Sparkle's reaction to Flash Sentry looks a lot like that of a complete virgin; it does not look like the reaction of someone who frequently has casual sex. This is one of the reasons why my Twilight is the least experienced of the Mane Six -- none of whom, in my world, would have casual sex either. Not even my Fluttershy, who is a biseuxal polyamorist.

I do not see how Sunset Shimmer example is even relevant. She had a boyfriend in CHS, one would assume that they easily could have regular intercourse.

Um ... that is, essentially, one of the two main subject matters of the story on which we're commenting. Namely, Love and Ambition. She stops short of full physical intercourse because she doesn't want to be trapped by Love; this rather obviously isn't going to be enough to prevent her from being so "trapped," but then she's a virgin and this is the first serious romantic relationship she's ever had, so she can be excused for her naivete on the matter. She doesn't yet get that Love isn't a matter of Ikea Sex.

She will get it, poor child. She will.

Casual sex makes romanticism much harder to sustain,

For us, yes, of course. Because we see sex as important or even sacred thing. For a culture where nudity is norm and sex is not taboo?

You're making a very big assumption here about nudity -- namely that the more nude you are the more promiscuous. That's not even really true among Humans -- and we don't have horse-hides!

As for sex not being seen as special in Equestria, as I've pointed out with examples from the Show, there's no evidence of this, and rather a lot of evidence to the contrary.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. Or, given one of the obvious examples of strong sexual romanticism within marriage on the Show, trying to have Carrot's Cake, as the case may be.

Well, to be fair, Rarity has shown very little interest in Spike one way or the other.

For values of "very little interest" that include treating him as one of her two best friends, spending long hours working alongside him, leaping to his defense whenever he's socially attacked (even by their other friends) and frequently displaying physical affection toward him, even in public. Hmm, I could use more people "showing very little interest" in me like that!

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Rarity's ambition is to win Prince Blueblood's love and get him to marry her. This would be an absolutely impossible ambition if love and marriage are not strongly linked in Equestria

Love and marriage definitely are. Love and sex or sex and marriage? That remains to be proven. I mean even in modern human society they at best strongly correlate.

Otherwise, what she would be aiming for is to become Blueblood's mistress

She didn't want to have sex with him. She wanted him to be her prince charming, sweep her of her feet and be with her and etc. Those are entirely different things. If she just wanted to have a little shag with the prince, I do not see any reason he would not be interested.

his is an obvious explanation, and one which he is denying, because (a) it would hurt his feelings and (b) it would be insulting to his wife

Or because he wants kids to be his, rather than to attract attention of a possible biological father to complicate everything.

In A Canterlot Wedding,

Again, do not see the relevance to the discussion. Marriage is important, obviously. Love is important. The fact that he probably doing it with Cadance since high school prom did not seem to be important to Twilight. His relationship with Cadance only became important when she learned that he was going to marry her.

In "Simple Ways," Rarity has a crush on Trenderhoof but discovers to her dismay that Trenderhoof has a crush on Applejack

Same as above. Rarity is not looking for casual sex in the first place. She is looking for a romantic adventure, which is entirely and completely different thing that is desirable in its own right. She is also a bit of a gold digger, but that is besides the point.
So everyone just banging everyone would not in any way solve a problem of AJ clearly disinterested in Tenderhoof romantically or sexually, and Rarirty being interested in Th romantically (but probably not sexually. I mean, come on, really).

Oh my, I did not have any imaginary worlds discussion for soooo long. This is fun!

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No, see ... you're making the extraordinary claim, namely that Equestria is a Free Love society. This is not only not borne out by any evidence in the show, but is contradicted by evidence in the show.

Suppose I state "America is secretly run by the Reptiloid aliens." You would ,reasonably, ask me for evidence of this claim, as in reality we do not see any Reptiloid aliens in leadership positions in our country. If I asked you "Well, prove that it's not run by Reptiloid aliens," this would not be an adequate provision of evidence. The burden of proof always lies on the shoulders of he who makes the extraordinary claim.

Likewise, your argument "The Reptiloid aliens are really good at hiding among us" would not constitute proof of your claim, since it could be applied to any claim, such as "America is secretly run by the Gummi Bears" or "America is secretly run by kitty-cats." You would reasonably reject my claim, because I have not supported it with any evidence; what's more, because it's an extraordinary claim, one needs extraordinary evidence.

For instance, if George W. Bush was quoted as saying "America is secretly run by Reptiloid aliens, and I know because I am a Reptiloid alien, and I ran America," this would not be adequate evidence. Obvious alternative hypotheses are (1) the source quoting him is lying, (2) George W. Bush is lying, or (3) George W. Bush has gone insane. The proof required for the Reptiloid alien theory of American political science would be rather extreme.

You have presented no proof for the Free Love Equestria theory save that the Equestrians normally go nude. Nudism and sexual promiscuity are not corollaries (especially regarding an alien culture that obviously sees no moral implications in it), because it's fairly easy to remove clothes and hence the promiscuous may choose to dress in concealing or revealing clothes, as they desire. LIkewise, an absence of clothes does not force one to engage in sexual behavior.

So, yes, there is evidence that contagious diseases exist (there was even a minor epidemic in Hurricane Fluttershy) but there is little evidence of actual non-curable and/or life-threatening diseases.

Again: your claim that Equestria differs from America in that there are no non-curable or life threatening diseases is extraordinary, and you have offered no evidence to support it.

You obviously want to see Equestria as a Free Love society. For my analysis of one reason why many fans desire this, read "The Desire To Degrade."

The sad thing is that degrading the characters makes them less dramatic. My tortured Sunset Shimmer, who is torn between Love and Ambition and sees herself as Good even as she slips into Evil (and I'm not talking about her making out with Flash Sentry, he's actually her Morality Chain as of Chapters 4-7), is far more interesting than she would be were she just an airheaded trollop.

6857520

Rarity's ambition is to win Prince Blueblood's love and get him to marry her. This would be an absolutely impossible ambition if love and marriage are not strongly linked in Equestria

Love and marriage definitely are. Love and sex or sex and marriage? That remains to be proven. I mean even in modern human society they at best strongly correlate.

"Even in?" On what basis do you make the assumption that love, sex and marriage are less strongly linked in Equestria than in, say, modern America?

Evidence of the Show is that they are quite strongly linked in Equestria. Carrot Cake is upset by what might be evidence that Cup Cake is sexually unfaithful to him; this makes no sense unless marriage is ideally exclusive in their society. Cadance's pregnancy is assumed to be the result of her marriage and Shining Armor assumed to be the sire of her foal. Again, as ruler of a city-state, Cadance is in a position to have lovers lined up outside her bedroom door every day if she so desires.

Otherwise, what she would be aiming for is to become Blueblood's mistress

She didn't want to have sex with him. She wanted him to be her prince charming, sweep her of her feet and be with her and etc. Those are entirely different things. If she just wanted to have a little shag with the prince, I do not see any reason he would not be interested.

You're flailing about desperately now trying to justify your non-arguments. Rarity wanted Blueblood to marry her, the normal definition of "marriage" is that married couples have sex, and I've just given two examples of this being explicitly true in the Equestrian definition of marriage. Adultery and probably other forms of non-marital sex also exist in Equestria (Carrot Cake's uncomfortableness proves it) as well.

And, based on Blueblood's behavior, he apparently either wasn't interested, or was idiotic enough to imagine he was going to get sex from Rarity by being obnoxious to her. Because everything he did toward her looked like intentionally pushing her away.

his is an obvious explanation, and one which he is denying, because (a) it would hurt his feelings and (b) it would be insulting to his wife

Or because he wants kids to be his, rather than to attract attention of a possible biological father to complicate everything.

You've sort of got it, but backward. The reason why a husband in general and Carrot in particular doesn't want his wife to bear someone else's children is because if she does, he'll be stuck supporting kids who aren't his. The general solution to this is to leave one's wife, divorcing her for infidelity. Carrot doesn't want to do this because he loves Cup Cake. This is why he desperately wants to believe that she wasn't unfaithful.

Given Equestrian biology and the way atavisms really can manifest, it's quite possible that Cup Cake wasn't unfaithful.

In A Canterlot Wedding,

Again, do not see the relevance to the discussion. Marriage is important, obviously. Love is important. The fact that he probably doing it with Cadance since high school prom did not seem to be important to Twilight. His relationship with Cadance only became important when she learned that he was going to marry her.

Since you're referencing "Neigh Anything," I'll also point out that in that story Twilight Sparkle helps set them up specifically because she really likes Cadance. This implies that she thinks that their relationship would be meaningful and would involve Cadance being more in her own life in the future.

I have no idea exactly when Shining and Cadance first had sex, though they first kissed at their high school prom. I also don't think that Shining and Cadance gave Twilight blow-by-blow descriptions of their sex life. Of course, these assumptions are both based on the model of sex as being special and linked to love and often marriage among the Ponies, rather than being being like eating sandwiches. In Free Love Equestria, Shining and Cadance probably had threesomes with Twilight, based on her strong positive affect toward both of them. (And the obvious problem with this isn't, if you assume that pregnancy is easy to avoid).

So everyone just banging everyone would not in any way solve a problem of AJ clearly disinterested in Tenderhoof romantically or sexually, and Rarirty being interested in Th romantically (but probably not sexually. I mean, come on, really).

Wait, why wouldn't Rarity be interested in Trenderhoof sexually given her displayed emotions in "Simple Ways"? Even in Free Love Equestria, Ponies presumably are more likely to have sex with Ponies they like, and Rarity and Trenderhoof do like one another, and have numerous points of compatibility.

6857537
Woah, woah, woah. Dude (or dudette).
Hold your horses there. Seeing sex as a non-committal pleasurable activity to be enjoyed by consenting adults without necessary exclusivity or long-term emotional connection is not, in any way, shape or form the same as "airheaded trollop". If anything it is much more healthy and reasonable than what we have now, if it is a truly cultural stance that is not going against a grain of thousand-year tradition*.

Again: your claim that Equestria differs from America in that there are no non-curable or life threatening diseases is extraordinary, and you have offered no evidence to support it.

While I concede that Free Love Equestira is a claim I make, and thus have the onus of the proof is on my side (especially if I were to say that other points of view are wrong, which I did not), I strongly disagree with the above statement.
The idea of lethal diseases goes very much against the tone of the Saturday morning cartoon. In a universe where laws of physics are broken for a laugh and characters have survived cartoon-level of violence (like having anvil dropped on their heads and then mending a broken leg in a matter of days) having gritty mortal diseases would be weird. This is not an extraordinary claim for that universe in any significant way, and requires argumentation to be settled one way or the other. And I cannot conclusively prove that something does not in fact exist, only point out that given every example of disease we seen (or heard mentioned) in cartoon is not dangerous and hardly inconvenient that that can in fact be the norm.

Finally, while I do agree that character degradation is indeed employed as a fanfiction device (and not always in a bad way), I do not see, say, WinningVerse as an example of degradation of characters, or even of a vicious behavior at all - despite (even not really despite, but rather along) being a non-commital relationship pony who in the end settles with two girls, protagonist is in no way a bad, thougthless or vicious pony.

6857579

Hold your horses there.

Lovingly.

Seeing sex as a non-committal pleasurable activity to be enjoyed by consenting adults without necessary exclusivity or long-term emotional connection is not, in any way, shape or form the same as "airheaded trollop".

Sunset Shimmer's problem, in the story we're referencing, is that she is torn between what she sees as incompatible goals. She has fallen in love with Flash Sentry, but she wants to return to Equestria and Ascend. (She doesn't realize -- because of her biases -- that Flash is actually assisting her Ascension).

Seeing sex in that fashion would, however, reasonably lead others to take one's claims of love less seriously. Which is exactly how it operates in Human societies. And probably Pony ones as well, given that the Ponies are also high-K reproducers.

I don't think you understand the sociobiological underpinnings of sexuality and the associated emotions very well. I think, in fact, that you're largely motivated by the assumption that in a Free Love culture, it would be real easy to get laid, and this would make everything better. You haven't yet grasped the downsides.

In regards to your other refutation, you seem to be misusing the logic there. Marriage does imply sex and in fact may even imply exclusive sex, but the converse is not true - sex does not imply or necessitate marriage, and definitely is not a start-all end-all of it. Therefore it is entirely possible to want marriage for itself, rather than because it gives access to shaging.
Marriage is exactly what Rarity wants in both cases you have brought up, not sex. How it refutes the fact that having sex outside marriage is not a problem in pony society, I do not know.
Same goes for child rearing. Yes, having kids outside of wedlock would indeed be problematic. Even adultery could be, if we assume that marriage is a promise of exclusivity. But that hardly proves anything.

Wait, why wouldn't Rarity be interested in Trenderhoof sexually given her displayed emotions in "Simple Ways"?

Well, he really is not shown as physically attractive. Granted, I am not a speciallist in sexual attractivity of cartoon stallions so I may be in error, but that was more of a joke anyway.

In Free Love Equestria, Shining and Cadance probably had threesomes with Twilight, based on her strong positive affect toward both of them. (And the obvious problem with this isn't, if you assume that pregnancy is easy to avoid).

Well... guess so. If all parties involved were interested, then, well, they might. I mean sharing bed with someone of your own sex is not everyone's cup of tea, but I would not really see anything necessarily wrong with that picture, unless it airs in children's cartoon slot.

The idea of lethal diseases goes very much against the tone of the Saturday morning cartoon. In a universe where laws of physics are broken for a laugh and characters have survived cartoon-level of violence (like having anvil dropped on their heads and then mending a broken leg in a matter of days) having gritty mortal diseases would be weird.

You're thinking of stuff that happens around Pinkie Pie, to Pinkie Pie or people about whom she cares a lot. Pinkie Pie is a Reality Warper. It's almost explicit, save in that Pinkie's power protects itself even against her own desire from examination. That was the whole point of "Pinkie Keen."

Finally, while I do agree that character degradation is indeed employed as a fanfiction device (and not always in a bad way), I do not see WinningVerse as an example of degradation of characters, or even of a vicious behavior at all.

Even though Diary of a Winning Pony is mostly about Cloud Kicker spreading misery to everypony who makes the mistake of loving her, and one of Ponibus' stories is about how deeply Twilight Sparkle's family sucks?

You're thinking of stuff that happens around Pinkie Pie, to Pinkie Pie or people about whom she cares a lot. Pinkie Pie is a Reality Warper. It's almost explicit, save in that Pinkie's power protects itself even against her own desire from examination. That was the whole point of "Pinkie Keen."

There is a case of Rainbow's wings being broken, after a earth-shaking crash no less, with her getting fine in a few days. As a person who, six month later, still recovers from breaking his leg, I would say that either Equestrian Medicine is insanely more advanced or pegasi metabolism is wholly different from humans, or death, trauma and disease are not really part of Saturday Cartoon-ish verse.

Even though Diary of a Winning Pony is mostly about Cloud Kicker spreading misery to everypony who makes the mistake of loving her, and one of Ponibus' stories is about how deeply Twilight Sparkle's family sucks?

eh...yes?
All the pain and misery is the result of incompatibility of other ponies selfish desires of exclusivity, and the end result is much better than would be possible in a strictly monogamous culture.

6857599 no, I do see downsides... well, some of them. When one changes something rather fundamental, obviously there would be some unforseen consequences.
Anyhow, do I understand correctly, that you pose that in a culture where sex is not meaningful in itself, a romantic relationship would lose part of it's value because then it loses "we now have sex" as a signifier of strong emotional bond?
Or am I still missing your point?

If I am not mistakent, then, yes, I would agree with such statement. I still think that romantic relationship, regardless of sex is of huge intrinsic value in itself, and thereby would not significantly be diminished by such subtraction.
Kinda like I can go out and buy myself a cake any day of the week, but it's really does not make having a birthday cake on your birthday less of a special occasion.

Either way, I absolutely do not believe that free sex for everyone is a social cure-all. I myself would definitely not be able to maintain an open relationship. I do, however believe that deciding, between all involved parties, on a case-by-case basis exclusivity and term of relationships, rather than entering them with a culture-inherent default expectations, is ultimately a better thing.

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All the pain and misery is the result of incompatibility of other ponies selfish desires of exclusivity,

As opposed to those Ponies who unselfishly go along with whatever Cloud Kicker wants at the moment? (Which, note, is subject to change at Cloud Kicker's whim). Admittedly, that's Cloud Kicker's definition of "unselfish," but this is hardly a workable universal definition.

For added obnoxiousness, Cloud Kicker can and does use the fact that anyone was stupid enough to have sex with her, even once, to torment them in public or to torment their other loved ones, whenever she feels like it. Note her treatment of Raindrops and the way she twists the verbal knife in Rainbow Dash regarding Pinkie Pie.

Derpy's "selfish desires" come mostly from the fact that Derpy realizes that Cloud Kicker's behavior is corrupting Derpy's own children. Never, never ever threaten Derpy's children.

(The incident that in my fanon got Luna to sit up and pay attention to Derpy)

As for Yoko Ono Blossomforth, I both feel sorry for her, and am astonished at her stupidity at getting sucked into that emotional vortex when she should know better. In the Shadow Wars Storyverse, it eventually gets Blossomforth killed (mostly because of Cloud Kicker's SWSV backstory).

6860147 your understanding of the series is....vastly different then mine.
a)Cloud Kicker teases everyone, not just those she had sex with. e.g. Sparkler, Blossomforth. It is implied to be in good fun, and never oversteps bounds to which someone would be uncomfortable with, e.g. she does not joke about with 'Shy.

b)

Derpy realizes that Cloud Kicker's behavior is corrupting Derpy's own children

At the ongoing point of the series CK is a friend of the family, and one of the Derpy's children calls her "Momma". That is not really compatible with what you said.

c)The crux of the conflict of the main 'fic of the series is merely that there are three people who wish to have exclusive relationship with CK, who at the beginning of the series explicitly does not want it. °

Incompatibility of desires is a normal and inevitable thing, and in this case an instigator of the conflict is in fact Derpy, who, despite knowing full-well that CK is not exclusive with her still assumes that she will be.That is by definition a selfish behavior, as it puts her desires above her friend's. and it is a testament to CK that he tries to take that into account and change her behavior to accommodate that and not hurt her friend, but she really is not under any moral obligation to do so.
In the end , all involved parties talki it out like and adults they are and figure out a reasonable compromise, wherein CK compromises to be exclusive with two out of three ponies she loves (and who love him back), and Derpy, for whom this is not desirable, stays as his fully platonic friend.
Nowhere in this fic is there an example of vicious (at least intentionally) behavior, much less anything that would in my eyes degrade a character. CK is shown as an imperfect pony capable of demonstrating virtues, who cares deeply about his fellow equines, if at times prone to lapses of judgment.

And yes, the universal definition of being selfish is prioritizing one's own desires over someone else's

6860147

I didn´t ask you before, but is this fic part of "Nightmares are Tragic" continuity?

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Yes. This is all the Shadow Wars Story Verse. Though at this point Sunset Shimmer has as of yet no access to information about what's been going on in Equestria, so she doesn't know about the Return of NIghtmare Moon or the liberation of Princess Luna from the Nightmare. (If she did she might take pause later when she challenges Twilight Sparkle, who defeated Nightmare Moon and in the process earned the gratitude of two Alicorn Princesses. Or maybe not -- even Sunset's Pre-Nightmare plan boils down to "Impress Celestia with my power and thus implicit threat, then negotiate for Ascension on the basis that she'd be better of with me on her side rather than against her." (Once she goes Nightmare, of course, the part of it where she's merely displaying, threatening and negotiating rather than attacking goes by the board)).

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a)Cloud Kicker teases everyone, not just those she had sex with. e.g. Sparkler, Blossomforth. It is implied to be in good fun, and never oversteps bounds to which someone would be uncomfortable with, e.g. she does not joke about with 'Shy.

Fluttershy is one of the only beings she actually likes -- possibly even loves, for her value of the emotion. With pretty much everypony save for Fluttershy, Derpy, Blossomforth and blood kin, she takes sadistic pleasure in emotionally harming them as much as possible. In fact, one way to tell the difference between those Cloud Kicker likes and those she is merely using is whether or not she deliberately harms them.

She accidentally harms almost everypony, because she has trouble emulating a normal Pony psychology enough to predict what will harm somepony. Cloud Kicker is IMO a high to moderately-functioning sociopath, and has no real empathy with anypony -- but there are some Ponies she likes enough that she feels bad in a vague sort of way if she harms them.

In the Shadow Wars Story Verse, Cloud Kicker's core personality is only slightly sociopathic -- but as a filly she made the mistake of summoning Winning Through Degradation, a Shadow Vice of Lust, into herself. And Winning, like almost all the entities from the Shadow Universe, hates everypony, refraining from harming anypony in particular due to strategic and tactical considerations.

Derpy realizes that Cloud Kicker's behavior is corrupting Derpy's own children

At the ongoing point of the series CK is a friend of the family, and one of the Derpy's children calls her "Momma". That is not really compatible with what you said.

Cloud Kicker did Derpy a huge favor once, helping her establish herself when she was a mostly-friendless single mother, in the process ensuring that Derpy was able to support and thus keep Dinky. That, coupled with an earlier friendship that was one of the few genuinely nice and unselfish things Cloud Kicker ever did in her whole freaking life, and the fact that Derpy is an incredibly nice Pony who is a Horrible Judge of Character (part of how, in the Shadow Wars Story Verse, she wound up an abanoned single mother in the first place), means that above and beyond everything else, Derpy is Cloud Kicker's lifelong loyal friend. Derpy would put up with a lot from Cloud Kicker, and this went double for the period that she was actually in love with Cloud Kicker.

Having said that, the essential problem was that Derpy's children were starting to model themselves on Cloud Kicker. Or on Derpy in her relationship with Cloud Kicker. And this was bad, because Derpy was not entirely blind to the fact that she was being taken advantage of, and did not want her children to become either users or suckers. Derpy is mildly autistic, but she is not STUPID, an important distinction. So while she may be slow to notice character developments in others, she eventually will notice them. (Plus, in the Shadow Wars Story Verse version of this, she is also good friends with Carrot Top, who helps clue her in to aspects of reality that Derpy misses).

It is true that Cloud Kicker's abuse of Derpy was unintentional. As I mentioned, Derpy is on Cloud Kicker's (very) short list of Ponies she actually doesn't want to harm. It's just that Cloud Kicker is such a poisonous personality that she tends to harm everypony she emotionally touches, and she can't always turn this effect off toward her true friends -- even when she would like to do so.

In fact the Shadow Wars Story Verse version of Cloud Kicker sees herself as protective towards Derpy, as witness this from the Degradingverse (an alternate worldline version of the SWSV) Cloud Kicker in Can You Go Home Again?

"Sweetie?"

The voice was high and childlike, but with a throatiness which made it obvous that its owner was no child. Cloud Kicker turned to regard Derpy Hooves.

Cloud felt an uncharacteristic rush of warmth and caring. Derpy, she thought fondly. My true friend. Desiree Doo. When I have won my victory, you shall be high at my side, my own Loyalty, the only Loyalty who has ever loved me. And you shall be at the head of your clan -- they shall pay dearly for having cast you out.

You'd be horrified if I told you this. You've never cared for yourself, only for others -- for me, for Sparkler, for Muffin. You don't want revenge on those who have wronged you; only happiness for those you love.

You are truly good, she thought. Your rejection by Equestria is proof that this is a sick and flawed society. I shall make a better Equestria when I rule. Certainly, a far less hypocritical one.

So yes, even my demon-ridden Cloud Kicker genuinely loves Derpy Hooves.

And yes, the universal definition of being selfish is prioritizing one's own desires over someone else's

Unless one is Cloud Kicker in the Winningverse, in which case this is being selfless. Magically. Because, in the Degradingverse, she's twisting reality by tapping Pinkie's own Talent.

Until Pinkie shakes off Winning's control, that is.

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One of the key realizations I made when I worked out this story is that Sunset Shimmer considers herself to be a good girl. Ambitious, pragmatic, even ruthless -- but no way no how a villain. So she's not going to make corrupt bargains with demons or warlocks for power.

Not on purpose, anyway. Another theme of this story is that Sunset Shimmer is a lot more innocent and out of her depth, in many ways, than she imagines herself to be.

I also felt amusement at her dismay over discovering magic rituals that actually worked, but so poorly. I once knew some wannabe witches and would-be masters of mighty magic who would have chopped their good right arm off for even that much.

What she discovered was that magic is really weak in the Humanoidverse (remember, Equestrian magic hasn't yet started to flow in). She knows theoretically how it should work, and she's a highly-skilled mage, and yet all she can achieve are effects far inferior to what she could accomplish by simple technological means common to both worlds.

Another theme of this story is that Sunset Shimmer is a true intellectual. She's shown as being Twilight Sparkle's intellectual equal in Rainbow Rocks, and so I write her that way. She's more the engineer than the theoretical scientist, but she's smart. Even in the really hot love scene in Chapter 7 (which is incidentally the one I was working on around the time of Further Confusion 2016) she makes good use of her previous reading.

I like how you handled Sunset's explorations of human magic and sorcery. It probably did a lot to convince her that she was among ignorant savages.

She wants to believe this, too, to justify her actions and keep up her determination to return to Equestria and challenge Celestia for what she sees as her "rightful place." She's trying hard to reject the implicit evidence provided by Flash Sentry.

6870136 so...CK is a sociopath to people except to 'shy. And Derpy. And Rainbow Dash, and Sparkler and Dinky and Blossomforth and all of the huge Kicker family, and complete strangers during the changeling invasion.
Or in short, what we would call an actually normally emphatic person who cares about others.

Unless one is Cloud Kicker in the Winningverse, in which case this is being selfless. Magically. Because, in the Degradingverse, she's twisting reality by tapping Pinkie's own Talent.
Until Pinkie shakes off Winning's control, that is.

Eh?
I genuinely don't get what you were trying to say.

And you keep refering to the ShadowVerse... which, I must admit I did not read. I will try to read it of course, but that does indeed sound like a degradation fic on the original Quordath's works.

It's just that Cloud Kicker is such a poisonous personality that she tends to harm everypony she emotionally touches, and she can't always turn this effect off toward her true friends -- even when she would like to do so.

Like whom? I would be very hard pressed to find any examples of any serious long-standing harm to anyone in the series inflicted by CK, much less intentionally. The only one example you could come up with would be Fluttershy, but that is clearly shown to be an old and very much lamented mistake, and one made by RD.

6870333

No, Cloud Kicker's a mild to high-functioning sociopath. Highly-intelligent, but extremely alienated from the more normal Ponies around her, who form strong bonds of friendship and love with one another. On some level she knows this, and one of the reasons she feels impelled to hurt other Ponies is jealousy that they are able to feel strong positive affect denied to her by her own psychology. Because she's smart and ruthless, she is very good at harming others and getting away with it.

This is more true in the Winningverse, where her horrible behavior stems solely from her own personality, than in the Shadow Wars Storyverse (main branch or Degradingverse ones), where it comes partially from Winning Through Degradation, a Shadow Vice of Lust (the Shadow Vices are sort of like sapient soul-viral colonies, and they come in strains differentiated by the Vice they exemplify and induce). The WInningverse Cloud Kicker was a neurotic, alienated little filly entirely too smart for her own good, who stumbled upon a lost copy of the Codex of Shades and decided to try the rituals she found within.

In my life I've known several sociopaths of varying degree. All of them had some ability to form or at least fake positive affective social bonds with some individuals -- usually immediate family and a few chosen friends. Anyone not in those categories was treated like prey, competitors or scenery, rather than people. I recognize Cloud Kicker because I've known people like her: in fact, I knew one guy who was a lot like her, down to the compulsive sexuality and the long list of excuses for why this was perfectly reasonable. Though CK being female does imply more serious sociopathy, because she's operating against the normal female sexual behavioral pattern.

In the story to which this thread is attached, incidentally, I'm perfectly aware of the fact that Sunset Shimmer is going mad: her insistence that the Humnanoids are bestial sub-creatures who don't really count in the moral sense is a delusion, one which she's adopted to excuse her own cruel behavior, which in turn stems from the paranoia induced by what she sees as Celestia's betryal, coupled with the immersion in an alien society. Sunset Shimmer is, specifically, going Lone-Mad in Equestrian terms.

Here, the effect of her sexuality is the precise opposite of its effect on Cloud Kicker's normal behavior in the Winningverse. It leads Sunset Shimmer to form an emotional bond with Flash Sentry, one which is alleviating her Lone-Madness and causing her to start questioning her assumption that the Humanoids are brutes incapable of higher morality. Unfortunately for both Sunset and Flash, as we know from Equestria Girls this emotional isn't going to prove strong enough: Sunset will return to her sterile path of arrogance and aggression until Princess Twilight Sparkle defeats her, forcibly showing her the error of her ways. And Sunset's betrayal of Flash will cause her to alienate his affections from her.

Like whom? I would be very hard pressed to find any examples of any serious long-standing harm to anyone in the series inflicted by CK, much less intentionally.

Cloud Kicker claims to herself that she's not harming Raindrops, nor trying to shake Rainbow Dash's love for Pinkie Pie (after helping to set it up in the first place!) but she very clearly does the first (to the point of exacerbating Raindrops' distrust of other Ponies) and tries to do the second (but is defeated by the very purity of Dashie's love and loyalty). And these are Ponies she actually considers friends and hence consciously monitors her own behavior towards. Towards Ponies she considers wholly to be prey or scenery, she is of course far more ruthless.

6870333

"Degrading" Cloud Kicker in a fic by providing a supernatural reason for her horrible treatment of others = bad, Degrading everypony ELSE in the MLP:FIM universe by showing them as a bunch of airheaded trollops and adulterers= good. Got it.

6871147 how and why you believe having regular sex with friends is a characteristic solely belonging to the "airheaded trollops" I shall never know. But it is plainly not true.
Please, if you insist on maintaining that casual sex is "degrading" anyone, the least you can do is provide arguments as to why.
To me it is no more degrading than having a bowling night with friends, and much less so than a pub crawl.
Moreover, there is hardly any examples of adultery in the series. The only cases where that could more or less be described as such is when CK sleeps with 'Shy and Blossoms after acknowledging that despite his disclaimers Derpy still expects exclusivity from him. And even then it is a stretch.
Other than that... who in the series cheated on their partner? No one, that's who. They have threesomes and open relationships and whatever other forms of sexual contracts suit their fancy, but you cannot seriously accuse them of breaking any sort of explicit or implicit contract.

in fact, I knew one guy who was a lot like her, down to the compulsive sexuality and the long list of excuses for why this was perfectly reasonab

It's a goddarn 21st century here. You don't need excuses to have sex. Or talk about sex. Or propose having sex to people. It may at worst be uncouth, but that's it. If you wish to be overly flirtatious and bang everything that moves and gives informed consent - it is perfectly within your right and does not in any way necessitate any explaining or justifications because there is nothing wrong with it in the first place.

6871112

Cloud Kicker claims to herself that she's not harming Raindrops, nor trying to shake Rainbow Dash's love for Pinkie Pie (after helping to set it up in the first place!) but she very clearly does the first (to the point of exacerbating Raindrops' distrust of other Ponies) and tries to do the second (but is defeated by the very purity of Dashie's love and loyalty). And these are Ponies she actually considers friends and hence consciously monitors her own behavior towards. Towards Ponies she considers wholly to be prey or scenery, she is of course far more ruthless.

who to the what to the where now?
Could you point me to the events you are referring to? Because I am currently awash in a sea of confusion.
I mean really, we are talking about the main continuity of the "Life and Times of The Winning Pony" as written by Chengar Quordath (whose name I probably just misspelled horribly), right? Right?

I kinda do remember her willing to sacrifice her life to put on Shadow's Armor to save complete strangers and extended family. I sort-of remember that she protected Derpy from bullies in the Flight Camp. I may recall her offering to help pay for Sparkler's education too. Or refusing favors from Celestia and opting for a fair dishonorable discharge instead.
You know, being a nice person.