Twilight and her friends are invited to spend some time in the Canterlot castle with no explanation whatsoever. Once there, Twilight quickly understand that not everything is going well, but the Celestia doesn't seem to want to share her problem with the new alicorn princess and former student.
But the real problem appears when they discover Celestia's secret and have to share some of the weight of ruling Equestria.
Just a story to discuss what it means to be a ruler and assume the responsibilities that come with the title.
In the honor of Twilight becoming a princess.
I chose the teen rating because I'm not only talking about how beautiful Equestria is...
Chapters (1)
A truly excellent story, in my opinion. One point I will make is that for characters' quote speech, whenever it is interrupted before the end of an actual sentence, you need to end on a comma rather than a full stop (period).
That being said, a deep a premise, well played.
2356825
Noted. I'll try to correct my writing on that point, it seems easy enough.
Thank you.
.
I have to admit, I'm surprised. I hesitated so much before publishing this one. It lacks so much in passion in my eyes. I have to consider I may have been wrong
I thought it was good, even if the open ending could be seen a mile away.
2357310
You're right on that one. But honestly, I'm not sure there would have been any interest hiding the fact that I would give no answer... How could I ?
In a way, in my mind, Celestia has chosen the path of war, because it's the "good" choice in my opinion, even if I despise the idea.
I don't say it directly, because one it's only my opinion and not the objective good choice (and Celestia is supposed to be kind of a model), because it brings nothing to say it directly (as I will never describe the war) and because I couldn't assume my position in a real debate. So I prefered hiding it in the story and let more place to show the problematic as largly as my little head is capable to comprehend.
(I didn't entered the whole "using war as a way to achieve a personal political goal", or even a "psychological goal", which don't really go with the pony universe).
I must disagree with your last statment. This was well done. It can be easy to talk about the morally right choice and ultimately I think Rarity says it the best. Even if a choice may be difficult, if we cannot live with the alternative then....it must be done. The underlying factor is that it takes tremendous courage to do that. It actually takes more courage to make the choice than to actually go into battle. With Celestia is hits even more when you consider how often she has been in this position before and had to make the "right choice" and witness the consequences. That would take its toll on anyone, especially with the only consolation being the parting thanks...well ok there would be visible ques, but still it would be difficult and that combined with her guilt over Nightmare Moon, she has had a rough 1000 years. In the end, being the good guy, in reality, can be a really thankless job.....however the alternative is frightening to imagine.....if no one stood up for justice in the world....what a place the world would be. Nice job.
2363726
).
I'm happy that you appreciated the way I treated the subject (I'm really surprised it goes so well actually
You've got the right to disagree. I assume you disagree with the idea that choosing the war isn't the "objective" good choice. If that's the case, you would be right to disagree. I just don't personnally think there is any "objective" good choice, because the question was broken to begin with ("what do you prefer? Do something bad or do something bad?").
But you've got some very good points that I agree (or, for some, already agreed) on. Mostly, I also want to believe in fighting for what is just. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't watch ponies (talking for me personnally there).
However, being a militian soldier, I'm also very happy to live in a country at peace and not have to fight or, even worst, having to command men to fight and potentially die into battle...
Doesn't matter, I still want to believe in fighting for what is just.
God writing that reply is hard...
2364061
. You are right though, the choice given is broken as there is no clear simple solution and the very nature of the matter at hand means it can't be ignored. Interesting enough that is a choice presented, to ignore the war and continue in an isolated existence. This is a choice that, given an ideal world, no one should have to make.....and yet we exist in such a world where, somewhere, these choices appears daily and rountine to certain people. That being said, I would have to say that the possible right choice here would be to aid them. Before I go any further let me say this, I am not a soldier and have no real military experience......the truth is I just couldn't do it. The combination of my upbringing and values....it comes down to the fact that I don't think I could kill someone.....even in a defensive situation. I'll take this moment to thank you for the service you are providing, it is a rough, but necessary role in our would and I thank you for your part in the peace we live in. You, all of you, make a difference
. That being said, going back to the story, we can't always choose the way that is easy for us if the result is an overall negative event. Within the scope of the story that would be the elimination of a race and the continued existence of said evil dragon lord. Even if he was not an immediate threat to Equestria, his existence and actions would cause discord and harm to other beings, something I do not think Celestia would allow. That being said, I comprehend your conflict....and these are ultimately my thoughts without the pressure of such a choice. Put in the same situation......i can't say it would be such a simple choice. It goes back to my prior comment; someone has to play the hero. To envision a world where none stood together to stop the tyrants of history is to imaging a world free of choice, freedom, and the simple joys that make everything we experience worth living. Without those what would the world be? Perhaps Arragorn said it best:
) but we as a people always need to help each other. That is what the show stands for and that is how we evolve as a world.
My disagreement was actually just to that you thought the story was badly written, but I guess I should have worded that better
The Return of the King
Sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me.
A day may come when the courage of Men fails
When we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship
But it is not this day
An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the Age of Man comes crashing down
But it is not this day!
This day we fight!
By all that you hold dear on this good earth
I bid you stand, Men of the West!
Failing to stand up to the evils of the world would be giving up "all that we hold dear on this good earth." For those reasons I say the best right choice would be to help. I am not a soldier, I have no grand reputation, and I have never had to make a choice that would effect the scope of people as of a nation (in reality anyway
2364177
My bad
.
I have to admit, it was pretty hard finding a good reason to motivate a war. I tried to balance the fact there was an evil dragon lord with the facts the endangered race were spiders (and potentially giant ones...) that we don't naturally want to help.
But that's what is good with cartoon in general. We know who is good and who isn't. (Well, ponies are a little more complex and I appreciate that
, like Rarity trolling RD when coming to comfort her for a competition, or Lightning Dust just doing what she thought was right.)
The issue I have with the story is how very either or it is. The world is a spectrum and decisions are rarely a straight up or down thing. Here we have a spider race being fought by dragons seeking aid. We are presented with two possibilities.
1) The ponies go to war on behalf of their ally.
2) The ponies stay out of the war and let them be slaughtered.
In reality there are a world of choices on both sides between and beyond those possibilities.
3) The ponies provide material and medical support without going to war directly.
4) The ponies decide to speak directly with the ruler of the dragons to try to come up with a diplomatic solution
5) The ponies go to war by proxy, trying to hire mercenaries or convince other nations that it is in their interest to join the conflict.
6) The ponies decide to harbor the spiders in Equestria leaving their land to the dragons but taking in their people.
2373911
Very true.
When facing a problem, narrowing our possibilities is almost always a mistake. I can only agree.
In fact, it would have been really easy to add those possibilities into the discussion (with Twilight proposing them and the spider's ambassador and that ambassador refusing them for various reasons, for example). I just didn't think of it because it wasn't the point of the story in my mind. (but I should have thought of them, I agree with you).
I made a mistake. I admit it.
What I will say now has only one purpose: go beyond recognizing my error and try to expand the range of my reply. Just so I just don't hide behind a "you're right, bye.".
If I had been able to remind myself about the actual existence of alternatives (like I should have), I would have still come back to a very limited choice between peace or war. (with explanations like:
- spiders don't use weapons, need soldiers and not metal
- you can't discuss with an evil beast, has killed all those who tried.
- spiders can't accept to flee, dragons wouldn't stop trying to get them anyway (an old grudge)
- taking only volunteers wouldn't give enough soldiers to help them and would still mean going into a full war in the end...
- all the other races (I wanted to avoid that word so much) have already refused to help.)
The point isn't that those solutions are bad. They aren't. In fact, the diplomatic approach is the most logical and almost obligatory thing to try in such circumstances.
My point is, I would have taken the story back to "peace or war", because I wanted to discuss having to make a choice with no good solution as well as ask the question: "would you be ready to ask someone to put his or her life in danger, knowing he or she will very probably die doing it?". And by extension: "What could justify taking the responsibility to sacrifice others life?".
For that, I needed a "that or that" choice.
About the "no good solution thing", I think your comment is particularly interesting. You propose alternatives that seem way better than "do nothing but peace" and "go to war and please the four horsemen".
However, I asked myself (but couldn't find a definitve answer) if they were really "better" solutions.
I found out it mostly depends on the circumstances. If it works, then yes, it's a better solution (giving weapons today to
terrorists/rebels help them win their battles and sometimes their war). Trying a diplomatic approach can save a lot of blood (some other times, it fails, poor Chamberlain).Some other alternatives seem kind of harder to accept. Mostly, the last two.
Hiring mercenaries suppose accepting that some creatures or ponies (or people, depending on what we are talking about) are "expendables". That it would be alright to pay them to risk and lose their lives in a fight.
I live in a country that lived from providing mercenaries for a long time (and we are proudly taught so about our history in school), but the concept sounds very bad in my head. I know that you will always find people who need the money, or consider that it's the only thing they know how to do, or are just happy to be a warrior (which actually frightens me), but I've got difficulties to accept the idea of just paying to be able to use another one's life. Even if they are willing to. I won't make any comparison to some other practices that exist, but I don't think less.
About letting the spiders come into Equestria... Well, I could sum my fears up with two questions:
- what about the ponies that already live there?
- is it really a solution to ask for an entire population to abandon their home? I know that choosing about moving and dying, the logical reasonable choice is moving, but it doesn't mean it's a good solution. It saves lives, but create a lot of suffering and injustice too. And in a way, it's just fleeing the problem, not solving it.
I come back to my first statement. You're right, I forgot to speak about the existence of alternatives. I made a mistake, I haven't got any good excuse (I was really tired?) for that. I'm just not very good at what I do
.
I just hope I could bring you more than a "you're right bye" answer by trying to discuss the subject a little further.
By the way, I'm curious (and you, of course, don't have to answer it), but I wonder what you would choose given the reduced choice that is given in the story? (no bad answer there, no good one either, choice is broken to begin with, so feel free to answer whatever you want, you can't be judged on your response (or by trolls, but who cares about them?)).
I'm curious because you show some good wisdom and thoughts on the subject.
2374302
I am not a fan of either solution, but for the purposes of this discussion I will start out with both of them.
2) The ponies stay out of the war and let them be slaughtered.
The ONLY way this could work at all would be if there were a total news blackout among the ponies or magic set up so nopony could know. It would also wreck any relationships with other nations because it has to be known that the ponies and the spiders are allies to someone other than Celestia. I also do not see ponies sleeping well at night if they knew about this and I do not see Celestia or Twilight able to callously let the spiders get slaughtered.
However:
1) The ponies go to war on behalf of their ally.
This doesnt work either. Look at ponies. A war machine, they are not, and by the time you fashioned them into anything resembling such it would be far too late. Their royal guard are pretty much a joke, and much too small to make a difference. Typical pony reactions to things much more sedate than a full war is to run off and hide. They can't even stomach a zebra.
In essence the ponies are in a position where if a major conflict struck they are left with a small strike force of gods and heroes. You send in the mane 6 or you send in the princesses. This doesn't work very well. In essence they have the equivalent of nukes but no ground forces to send out.
----
As for the choices I gave as alternates, those were the first four and I ignored two that I also considered at the time. There are more though if you wanted to take a full stance but these are often more tactical in nature.
7) Make a show of force. IE you give demands and then the sun doesn't come up for a few days. This kind of strong-arming might not go over well with other nations, BUT those other nations (especially when it starts to HURT) might be more interested in putting pressure on the dragon aggressors. In the long run, Celestia holds the mutually assured destruction card.
8) Assassinate the leader. Assuming the dragons are not evil to a man, and that the problem is the leader himself, then taking that leader out could be cutting the head off the snake. This could be done either as a direct action or in the guise of dealing with said dragon if Celestia wanted to be duplicitous.
----
Personally I think that with a war already in progress, I would go with:
6) The ponies decide to harbor the spiders in Equestria leaving their land to the dragons but taking in their people.
in the short term because I do not see a reasonable method of directly fighting a force like the dragons in a place and time of their choosing with no preparation. If the spiders are unwilling to suck it up and accept the short term loss, then they are not worth trying to save.
At the same time I would make a statement by not raising the sun unless the dragons agreed to let the spiders go without further casualties, and I would work on bolstering whatever borders we had with the respective kingdom.
I would work with the other nations to improve ties and gain material support as Equestria will be taking on the burden of adding the spiders. However in my mind I would note that the spiders would be extra troops in case the dragons decided not to stop at the borders.
You see if the dragons did decide to then forge on into Equestria, not only are they much further from their supply lines along with ours being already here and easy, but they also have a whole subjugated land to deal with that now has no indigenous population. At the very worst it should provide us with important time to prepare for the upcoming conflict.
2374478
.
Thank you for satisfying my curiosity
I also want to add some rebuttals to the other choices I noted:
- spiders don't use weapons, need soldiers and not metal
Material Support in a magical world would mostly be potions and the like. A spider force with potions that augmented their abilities and potions that healed their wounds would be far more effective.
- you can't discuss with an evil beast, has killed all those who tried.
Well, if they attacked Celestia and Luna flying in together as a diplomatic force then the choice has been made and in a far better way than declaring an actual war. Now it is shown to the world as, "We tried diplomacy and look at where it got us. What will they do to you next?"
- spiders can't accept to flee, dragons wouldn't stop trying to get them anyway (an old grudge)
The difference is controlling the battlefield. If they chase the spiders into Equestria the dragons will be at a significant disadvantage vs them gaining some equestrian troops.
- taking only volunteers wouldn't give enough soldiers to help them and would still mean going into a full war in the end...
I said in my statement that I do not see Equestria as having an effective force to send anyway.
- all the other races (I wanted to avoid that word so much) have already refused to help.)
That says a lot about the world and would actually make me a lot less squeamish about playing with the sun for a few weeks even if necessary.
-Hiring mercenaries suppose accepting that some creatures or ponies (or people, depending on what we are talking about) are "expendables".
It is more that it is what is feasible. Equestria has bits, magic, and a bunch of other resources. Other nations have fighters. It makes a lot more sense to use the resources at hand to bring in mercenaries and other nations than throwing green ponies at the problem.
- what about the ponies that already live there?
Equestria is a large and friendly land. There are open places where spiders could settle and ponies always seem to be willing to give a helping hoof. If they aren't willing to do that much, what makes you think they would go to war for the same spiders?
- is it really a solution to ask for an entire population to abandon their home? I know that choosing about moving and dying, the logical reasonable choice is moving, but it doesn't mean it's a good solution. It saves lives, but create a lot of suffering and injustice too. And in a way, it's just fleeing the problem, not solving it.
It is the only reasonable thing on short notice. Plus it is not necessarily a permanent thing. It is buying time.
2374522
Thing is I tend to think tactically and to think about the whole problem rather than just the immediate issue. There are many more factors beyond just saving a few spiders here. I mean if the world is as bad as you said and no other nation is going to help the spiders at all then what would stop some other nation from attacking Equestria once it ended up in a war against the dragons?
The world can watch the dragons take over the spider nation.
The world can NOT watch the dragons attack the combined forces of equestria and the spiders in equestria after the dragons took over the spider nation.
You may ask what the difference is. Well first you end up with treaties of support. While nations might not go ahead and help equestria fight the dragons over the spiders, if the dragons invaded equestria I am sure that would get some other nations into the fight, or if they didn't it would reveal EXACTLY where they stood. Plus if equestria were to lose on the defense as opposed to the offense then the world has frankly become a much more scary place and the other nations are tacitly accepting dragon rule as nothing will stop them at that point. Plus the fact that the other nations KNOW that celestia could permanently put away the sun if she were to LOSE.
Also note the second comment I made.
2374592
. I mean, everything you say makes sense.
I'm... not sure how to answer
I just can't really discuss political and war strategy about a world I know nothing about, that has no logic to begin with (but, as the writers said: cartoon logic), involving ponies and spiders (two very weak and highly flamables creatures) trying to take down dragons (the pinnacle of a warrior).
It's hard for me to take a symbolic approach to a more realistic first degree interpretation.
On a strategical point of view, I've just got no opinion whatsoever, I'm sorry.
I thought discussing that point:
or that one:
But I don't see the point of discussing them, because, once again, your point makes sense: you're right about it
. It takes a point of view that is not mine, but it is very logical and does make sense.
[edit: I'm realizing how weak my answer is, and it may sound very disappointing, but I can't really say anything else. I don't agree, but I fully understand why you're right. And I truly think that you're right.]
Sometimes there are no right decisions. I side with Twilight, I could not make that call.
3491255
You're wiser than I am then.
ps: hard to believe someone would still find and read that old fic.
And that was something alright. I feel that you have a knack for writing Celestia and Twilight in character. How Twi' directly started overanalyzing everything since the first mention of the letter. And Celestias eternal calm outer shell, when there's a storm of decisions going on behind it.
A lot of great points about the whole moral of this fic has already been discussed in depth above; so I haven't got much to add there. But, as for the decision, I think I'm with Twi' on this one.
If it only affected me, I'd try helping a friend though a lot if it was truly needed. But, making others suffer for your actions... That's an entirely other story. I guess I'll never be a politician.
As discussed by others, I feel like Celestia could have tried working some alternate plan. Working as neutral, trying to speak with the dragons. Trying to offer them the peace. Trying to get to the bottom of why they would want war. As said though, this has already been discussed, so I'll try not get into rambling about this, heh.
As far as the fic goes, it made me think - and feel for the characters. As seen, it can bring discussion, as this is one of those cases with no right or wrong. If Celestia for one reason or another only had those two options; it would be finding out which is the lesser bad.
So, overall, this was a great read. Both thought-provoking, and showing some strong interaction between Celestia, Twilight, as well as the others.
Lastly, I would suggest tagging Twilight as a character in this, and maybe "Other" as well. Also, not sure the "Random" tag applies. Maybe AU/Slice of life? (I've really got to read up on what SoL really is intended to be)
Liked and faved!
M
4157639
:
I guess I have to repeat myself...
That said
:
And you are something too. I mean, it may look like not much in your eyes, but imagine that, from my point of view, I got two comments (those are really rare) that give me indications about what I wrote (those are even more rare) all in one evening.
And yes, I should have gone to bed, but that would have been with the knowledge that I've got to wake up tomorrow. (never found a good way to tell that story...)
I never really realized that. My view was that I overuse Twilight because I love analyzing things (if we call it analysis) and I usually don't know how Celestia would react, so I don't make her react. I call lucky for that one.
Funny thing, that one would have taken a lot of time as I had a whole backstory for the dragon emperor who was a character supposed to be used in a sequel to "mark my words". So the reason was mostly "evil". Hard to do an analogy with the complexity of our world when you handle a cartoon universe.
I try to use as few tags as possible. Sort of a principle I set at the beginning. But why not? I'll do it (literally cost me nothing to do).
I'm not really sure how those works either. I usually take the "slice of life" stuff as "you won't have to think too hard to read this one" and the "random" as "I wrote that totally randomly because I've got no idea what I'm doing".
I also try to use as few of those tags as possible too.
Thanks again for the feedback. I can't tell you how great and useful it is to know what worked (or didn't work) on a story.
4157766
It doesn't matter if it's old. I still remember the cutie-mark fic, that spawned the discussion all the way back. And I still remember enjoying reading it. That's what important. With the right filtering, someone else might still stumble upon old stuff.
Here we go, a list, wie; http://www.fimfiction.net/faq#stories
[Click on "What do each of the categories mean?"]
From those definitions, I'd mark this one down as Slice of Life, with maybe Dark elements (the war/chance of death etc). And as characters, I say go with Celestia and Twilight, as they are in the spotlight here.
First off, the latter. I was doing the same just some week ago. Whatever happens tomorrow, even if it's just the next day, for what it's worth; best of luck, heh.
And as for me? I haven't had a reading spree in a while (eh..
). So, seeing you upload a new fic triggered me to go through some more of your one-shots; because that has always been entertaining.
I remember saying that I'll go through all your fics sometime, hmm...
Oh well, if you're off to sleep; Good Night!
4157950
And just like that I travelled two years in the past
.
I can see how dark could apply, but I can't really convince myself there is anything remotely dark about any of my stories (except mark my words).
I remember having replied it would take too much time. And also, some of the stories I wouldn't recommend at all. "Helping" for example isn't very good by any means. I like the idea I approached, but I don't think I did it right.
I kind of wish I had more than a few hours every month to write something a little better.
Thanks, it was a good one.
Well, this story truly is quite badly written. Although you managed to avoid spelling mistakes, the writing is a combination of incredibly stilted and frustratingly juvenile, most especially in terms of dialogue. Everyone speaks in such short and OOC ways that I simply could not get into this. Within the confines of the plot itself, I found the very idea strange.
The fact that you had Twilight acting as if she had to spy on Celestia to find out what was happening, that Luna left early, that Celestia did not give an answer, was simply all too juvenile for me to care about what was happening, and I suppose that my entire gripe with this fic is that it seems simply too straightforward and simple to actually be entertaining.
From the beginning, Spike felt written oddly, Twilight had strange mannerisms, Celestia acted with little plan or forethought, and ultimately this fic paid the price.
As an aside, when writing in English, dialogue can only end in a period if that is the end of the sentence as well.
These are properly punctuated sentences with dialogue. It is improper to place a period at the end of the dialogue and to continue the sentence after, which you do throughout this fic.
5528593
Sorry you had to waste time on the story, but your feedback is actually very helpful for me.
Thank you for the honesty of your comment and having taken the time to comment!
That's a lead I can use to better myself (if I find a way to overcome that problem). I'm glad to have a negative point of view to understand the flaws of my writing a bit better. Not sure how I might be able to use it yet, but I've got time to think about it.
So a few things. I won't comment on sentence structure (because from the AN it sounds like English is not your first language), and so that wouldn't really be helpful.
My thoughts.
1) There are a lot of missing line breaks (paragraphs without empty lines after them). This exacerbates some of the things that don't flow well.
2) I don't think the random tag is what you want. I would say more sad, maybe SoL. Depending if you plan on following it up, I could see it being an adventure
3) This is an interesting idea, but could be fleshed out more.
4) Focus on the important things. The interesting things are the situation, how Celestia feels about it, and the mane6 talking to her about it. You spend about as much time having Celestia explain the war as you do on the trip to Canterlot. One is the focus of the story, the other is just precursor.
5) This could almost do better as a multi-chapter fic.
Just my two bits.
5530396
Actually, learning english is one of the reasons I'm using it to write pony stories. So I would like to improve my understanding of sentence structure.
I appreciate it. I don't know how exactly I'll use it, but it gives me something to work on. So it still helps
. Thanks.
[edit:]
As I'm writing, I notice that I tend to need to have some paragraphs without empty lines after them to show that the ideas between the two paragraphs are tighlty connected while still forcing a bit of a pause to the reader.
Is it really that bothering? I'm really struggling to improve that point because I'm not sure to understand the implication quite now.
5530935
Other people may have a different opinion, but yeah it makes it much harder for me to read and enjoy a story (almost to the extent of deciding not to finish it).
If the two paragraphs are very tightly connected and not too long, merge them into one paragraph.
Ideally, all of your paragraphs will be related. If you have paragraph 1,2,3 you want 1 to flow into 2 to flow into 3. An abrupt transition is OK in certain situations, but the reader is going to be assuming there is a connection and you don't need to leave out spaces to show that. Starting paragraphs off with words like "however" or "none the less" can help signify transition.
The general rule is either use line breaks, or indent your new paragraphs.
When i have some time tonight, I will go back through and pull out some examples.
5531645
I really have to question myself on that then. Thanks
.
I would appreciate that a lot. Thanks for taking the time to help a stranger like me.
5531924
can somepony tell me what decision she made?
I'm too curious!
7781705
She decided to go to war.