As I say, I'm not dead, or hiatusing, or going off the boil with writing, it's just that these last few weeks have been a small tin can full of craziness. The next chapter's in the works currently, so the wait shouldn't be nearly so bad next time around!
2271040 Finally, she told the primrose mare how Cheerilee had taken her away from the scene, and that she had no idea if Applejack had succeeded in bringing Dash around,
2271040 We all told the princess that, in future, we’d be sure to take our friends’ worries seriously, no matter how unimportant they seemed to us. Of course, that wasn’t really what we were promising; it was all so nice and diplomatic, but really we were promising the princess that we wouldn’t let it happen again, and… well, that we’d keep an eye on Twilight.”
Quotation mark missing at the beginning of the quote.
I am so glad Rainbow and Trixie are at a ceasefire. Now Twilight needs to be confronted. Poor Angel. Looks like he has to find a bunny bar and drown his sorrows in carrot juice.
As I said before in a blog post, you have nothing to worry about -- we're not going anywhere, so work at the pace you like
This chapter was very pleasant and warm....it seemed to be all about fixing loose ends - now that the ice has been broken, Fluttershy and Trixie have no problem at all talking through their feelings and what they went through....it really made the whole chapter have a warm and snuggly feeling to it , or the coda after the climax of some sort....it was a time of self-reflection after all the events that have happened thus far, which made it feel really refreshing.
It was long too: I don't say that as a bad thing, but as busy as you say you are, I can also see why it took so long...because you really took your time and devoted a lot of attention and detail to every bit within this chapter, which was basically just talking: It was more than well-worth it though....really, like every chapter before it, it was very heavy on development and, in this one chapter alone, it's amazing how much these two simply by talking to each other and going through their feelings. There is more growth here, then in entire stories, and it's simply comes down to being because of how much time and focus you are willing to put into these two simply spending time together and going through their feelings....and I loved it - this stuff doesn't bore me in the least, quite the opposite.
I'm not sure why this chapter felt, in some sense, different then the chapters that came before, which were so similar, and, as before, I think it was simply because this is in a far more mature point in their relationship: these two have come a long way, and Trixie is no longer falling to pieces like she used too....helping Fluttershy with her anger indeed has, in some sense, grown and I like how that's become a focus as well: I was sort of disappointed how Twilight seemed to be doing all the helping in your TwiDash story: granted, the focus of the story was on Rainbow Dash, but I hoped more of that help would be reciprocated and Twilight would grow leaps and bounds in her own way just as much as Rainbow was. This story, in that sense, seems to be doing just that with delving more and more into Fluttershy's flaws growing up, and I like that.
You once told me in a reply that this story is more of a character-study then a romance, and reading this chapter, that feeling has really gotten to me more and more....for all the love expressed in this chapter, I didn't see it really as a romantic chapter, and perhaps, slowly, the whole story is getting to me that way -- that's not to say that I don't enjoy the romance and all it's endearment....but, to make an example, this chapter to me seemed much more Slice-of-Life than it did a romance chapter....there was tender feelings and adoration all over, and yet that simply wasn't what really had my focus, in all honesty.....your sheer focus on development, healing, and growth of these characters brings back what you said about this being a character-study, and that's what I really took from this -- the romance is the driving force that is making all of this happen, making these people happy and making amends with so much in their lives....but it's the growth itself, the talking back and forth about the past and all their problems...that's what really got my attention: it almost makes the romance seem almost superficial to it all.
Fluttershy really got my attention in this chapter....not necessarily in a bad way, but her rage is something that's really popping up lately, and I would say it feels almost out-of-character for her if it wasn't hypocritical - because again, for all the focus on Trixie, the really greater focus, perhaps the overarching theme of the story.....is Masks - on the layers hidden underneath which everybody has....Fluttershy, almost brute, touched upon Rainbow Dash's, whilst revealing a bit about herself (her anger, as well her surprising wisdom and wordplay -- again, I wouldn't say it wasn't necessarily OOC or bad, but it definitely stuck out a like a sore-thumb), Pinkie Pie shows some of her patience and gentleness beneath her hyperactivity.....Fluttershy said that they were meeting Trixie for the first time, and yet, on some level, I wonder just how much everyone really knows about each other....yes, I suppose, even among the tight-knit group of friends they may be, I don't expect the Mane 6, or anybody group of people, to really know everything about a person....and yet, it still seemed to be a subtle theme here, at least to me.
It was a chapter full of insights, and deep-thinking...it feels, on a superficial level, that the only remaining loose thread is Twilight....but of course, that would be too easy :P - there is still a whole journey awaiting Trixie on figuring out who she really is, what her special talent is....and I can only imagine what road you'll take: I can't wait to see
Everything that needed to be said has already been. Excellent. Truly excellent. Very curious to see what Twilight is going to bring to this party. Eagerly awaiting more and recommending to all who will listen.
2272204 Or it could be paranoia caused by the reintroduction of someone you used to consider an enemy being put into "a friendly position" compounded by highly erratic, worrying mind that is highly strategic and intelligent. Couple that with other aspects of Twilight's personality and it is a recipe for disaster that makes her current behavior very worrying and make perfect sense.
I think chapter 5 is the first time the concept's introduced (besides a hint earlier on), but Fluttershy has something of a tendency to lash out in this story, since Trixie popped up in her life. Obviously I don't want to drop spoilers about it, but this isn't an isolated incident, and there is a reason behind it. Is it uncharacteristic behaviour? Yes. Is it downright out-of-character? Obviously that's for the reader to decide, but given the mindset that she's slipping into at this point, I don't think so. Look at the episode with Iron Will; the course was designed to teach assertion, but she took that and turned it into an exercise in cruelty and power-expression, without any prompting. I think there's a reason for that, and it's part of what I want to explore in this story.
As for AJ's behaviour, the bottom line is that she's honest. She knows that Fluttershy's right (even though what she's saying is cruel), which makes it easier for her to see that Fluttershy's stressed to a great degree over something, and that she wouldn't normally behave that way. I imagine AJ was hurt and angry, but she's be a pretty terrible friend if she punched or ditched such a consistently good friend over a heat-of-the-moment outburst, particularly one that makes it quite plain that something's seriously the matter with Fluttershy.
Obviously the final word of any story (or any kind of art, really) is what the reader sees in it, not what the writer intended them to, so I'll have another look over the scene from the point of view of someone who doesn't know what's going on in Shy's head. I can see that it could feel a bit jarring, character-wise, although hopefully the later chapters clarify things a little.
PS: about the Fluttershy thing, if you're not bothered about spoilers, there's a bit more of a detailed explanation in my reply to Sheik's comment, but it's a bit spoilery and doesn't address the AJ business.
Firstly, I'm glad you think the characterisation works in this chapter; as you say, this one was designed to bring out the more character-centric elements of the story, and obviously it's a step back in pace from the party scenes, etc.
I suppose the concept that 'everyone has a mask' is one of the big ones in this story. With Fluttershy, it's fairly complicated. I think the bottom line for her character is that she has the exact same cruelty potential as Trixie, due to the inferiority complex she spent so long repressing. The difference is that she repressed it a lot better than Trixie, because she's fundamentally got a far stronger will. When she becomes aggressive in this story, it's actually mostly the fact that she's extremely protective of Trixie, in the same way any mother will go completely off the deep end if you threaten her kids.
Unfortunately, it manifests itself as anger because of all of the buried frustration, which often turns into her unconsciously trying to assert power over the other (ie, through cruelty or aggression). Obviously, it took someone on the outside (Trixie) to recognize the problem and try to put it right. She didn't go for the root (the sense of inadequacy), but I imagine that's an aspect that'll be dealt with in time.
Basically, Fluttershy can be a bully because of a suppressed sense of inferiority, whereas Dash can be a bully because of a very non-suppressed sense of superiority. They're two ends of a spectrum, so to speak.
Blurgh, sorry, I realize that's a bit of a wall-of-text that might just sound like waffle! Thanks for the great comments, and I'm really glad you're enjoying the story!
After reading through all of it (at the coaxing of some friends) I have to say...
I don't like it.
The very start of the story is all 'somehows' and 'someways' and it doesn't get better from there. All I know about this story's Trixie is that she has some inner demons that up till now haven't caused her any problems (other than looking back at the past) and that she had an earthpony lover and a normal childhood. The mare herself is utterly interchangeable with any other OC besides the fact that an OC would have stolen Trixie's canonical backstory.
She she only grows in the slightest of ways when she 'defeats' her great and powerful self (whom, again, we know nothing about other than flashbacks which don't feel intimidating in the slightest) and the rest of it is all just... there. She loves Fluttershy as much from the moment she lays eyes on her as in this latest chapter. And all her other actions are completely forgettable.
Then we come to the reason this story is getting a downvote from me: Fluttershy. Either the 'primrose' pegasus has been taken over by a changeling who hasn't quite gotten the act down just yet, or she's simply very badly characterized. She likes Trixie... somehow, and likes her more than any of her friends (oh hello marysueism, didn't see you there...) Then the backstory which is remarkably similar yet doesn't tell us a thing.
The bombshell for me was the way she treated Applejack however. (don't get me wrong, I disliked the way she treats all of her friends, save for Rarity who seems to be immune from author induced hatred) But yes, Applejack. Not only does she (Fluttershy) attack one of her best friends who is simply concerned, but she does it in the most cruel way, and with the most hurtful things possible. (This is the sort of thing that breaks friendships) Now, while talking about it somebody pointed out that it could be because she's scared. And I could potentially agree with that. HOWEVER. Not only does AJ not immediately buck her in the face or as a second best run off the moment the door closes in partial fury partial hurt at the betrayal, no, she instead apologizes and acts like she was at fault aswell. And this, is wrong on so many levels, it just made my blood boil.
Other than that, only minor sentence wording which became very annoying after a while.
In summary: -The only two ponies I really feel sorry for in this story are Applejack and Twilight (because I just know Twilight is going to end up either an antagonist or in some deep shit Trixie is supposed to rescue her from). - I like Rarity, hers was the character you captured best. - I'm ambivalent about Dash, Pinkie and Trixie - And I've grown to hate Fluttershy, which is a first for me, so congratulations on that.
No, believe me, it wasn't a wall of text, not even close -- I deliberately try to go beyond the typical one sentence "review" whenever I try to comment on people's stories: it sticks out like a sore-thumb to people, but I see that as being for the wrong reasons....if your post was a wall, mine was a mountain.
I certainly didn't think Fluttershy was out of character -- even if you must look only toward the canon, it's hard to disagree to not see some lingering anger in the girl, and it's not much of a stretch to take that, cultivate it, and make it a major plot point like you are doing. I remember reading once that someone said that Fluttershy's words to Rarity and Pinkie Pie during the Iron Will episode were her honest feelings, and not simply her acting crazy, and It's easy to feel that way.....her words were, not simply hurtful, but very blunt and down to the core, and when stripped of pretense, what she feels about her friends isn't very nice....you simply can't blame Iron Will exclusively, but have to look at Fluttershy and wonder just what's really going on behind her scared persona -- No, she shouldn't have treated her friends like that, even if what she says can be perceived as truthful from a certain point of view, but even so...it really makes you re-evaluate Fluttershy in a whole new way and what she is capable of.
It's really really easy to unconsciously start to see characters as archetypes or one-dimensional -- everyone has certain perceptions about a character, and as time goes on, flexibility starts to go down, and attempting to present or show other aspects of said-character are derailed as "OOC"...it's the behavior that, not only stifles creativity, but isn't even necessarily correct all the time. When you are so used to seeing Fluttershy as "delicate and demure", as Twilight called her, it becomes hard to see her as anything else, or to even think there is anything going on behind that pretty face. It's something that's two-fold.....on one hand, everyone has favorite interpretations of characters, and some are dearer than others and seen as being more "canon"...on the other hand, a little creativity goes a long way, and holding onto too much to a rote presentation of a character makes it hard to ever see them portrayed in any other way....in a way, they start to become one-dimensional and that's a problem. Even if it's not something typically seen from a specific character, or doesn't have much evidence showing it within the show-canon, again, a little creativity goes a long way, and even if people don't like it, at least you can get them thinking in new ways and perhaps seeing "Ohh, I can see him/her portrayed liked that".
What you've done with Fluttershy isn't even extreme -- as before, you've taken some little bits of "evidence" throughout the show, that many others have done, and turned it into a big focus....that's not to say this is not Fluttershy anymore - it's simply a side of her that isn't really seen all that often, and that doesn't make it a bad thing. That other people do, is really simply their personal outlook and probably comes from them holding onto too much to a specific interpretation: they are entitled to it, but my point is, doing things like this isn't as radical as one may think.
When it comes to Trixie, I'll say what I said before -- I like what you are doing with her, because it's a route that I simply don't see very often at all....however, as I wrote before, a part of me also fears that she'll become unrecognizable.....she is not the magician she thought she was or wanted to be, so where will that leave her? I don't know, but I hope, whatever she does, it doesn't mean she'll totally forget her time as an illusionist at least in some form - that all the time she spent, harmful perhaps it was, will serve some purpose for her in the future because that's how I recognize her.
See? Even I fall for it.....the characters shouldn't be known for gimmicky reasons (Trixie the showmare, Fluttershy the scared pegasus, RD the jock, Twilight the nerd, Rarity the drama queen, AJ the hard-worker, Pinkie the party animal, et.al)...and yet, in a lot of ways, that's exactly what it is, and we love them for that -- we love the characters for the simplicity they can have, and archetypes and tropes are not necessarily bad things: they are what people recognize and look for in stories....which makes it hard to see the characters as three-dimensional and seen as anything else...because even though I love the idea of seeing Trixie portrayed in this brand new light, how she is, how she always is or at least how I"m used to seeing her (the flashy egotistical magician), is what drew me to her from the start and how I know and perceive her the most.
To avoid the trap of being called "OOC", it really simply comes down to simply, step by step, making it so the audience understands why you have portrayed whoever in the fashion you have, even if they are not personally crazy for said-persona. I've seen countless presentations of all the characters I love....some I love more than others, yes, but, the ones I love the most anyway, I can understand why the author went the road they did even if it wasn't the first persona that came to mind or how I usually see them....I never saw the characters as changlings in disguise, but the same people showing sides that I simply have never seen before...and when it's pulled off successfully, the results can be absolutely spectacular -- because, even if it's a persona I wouldn't call my personal favorite and I still feel the conventional done-to-death canon-persona is my favorite (like the types listed above...Lyra the human-lover and her mare-friend Bon Bon, goofy but deep single mom Derpy and her daughter, Berry Punch and her drinking problem, blah blah blah...), I can still love and appreciate this new outlook on my favorite characters and it, overall, fleshes them out and makes them even more 'real' to me.
Bottom line....No, Fluttershy isn't out of character for me here, she is simply showing there is more to her than meets the eye: take it, or leave it.
This. While I don't hate the story for it, it is extremely off from the norm on all the characters and is really lacking on some parts. I plan on following the story just because there are very few reasons that I stop reading a story, but there are many things that can be fixed.
First of all, fair enough! I can definitely understand you not liking the story; in fact, it'd be pretty stupid of me to set out writing a story with the aim of pleasing everyone.
Just to address a few of your points (obviously I don't think I'll be able to change your mind, just giving you my point of view on the whole thing.)
First and foremost, I see where you're coming from with Applejack. I stand by the way Fluttershy behaved (I think it was cruel and unjustified, but I wouldn't call it out-of-character for reasons I'll come to in a minute), but, even though I imagine AJ would have been able to forgive a heat-of-the-moment piece of nastiness, it was a bad call to show AJ acting conciliatory.
To address the Trixie's characterization issues, I don't really agree that Trixie's 'inner demons' haven't caused her any problems. I mean, they filled her childhood with a massive inferiority complex, ruined the only relationship she ever considered worth holding on to, and basically destroyed any chance she had at a normal life. Within the actual story though, it was pretty much intended from the start that the 'inner demons' wouldn't cause her much difficulty (at this stage, anyhow). It's explicitly stated on several occasions that she lost all of the (misguided) faith in her own power during the incident at Ponyville. It broke the hold that side of her personality had over her. All the 'attacks' that take place up until this point in the story is the psychosis (or whatever you'd call it) attempting to claw its way back into a position of power, with (at this point) little success. If her inner demons don't feel threatening, that's probably because they don't presently pose much of a threat, because Trixie's sense of inadequacy (which 'fed' them) is diminished. However, I'd argue that in the past, while she still let them in, they caused an immense amount of damage for a lot of her life.
Equally, about her feeling like an OC... well, that's pretty much it. The only canon backstory we have is that she's a travelling showpony. The rest is left open for fanon to fill in, which means any fanon characterization that goes into her backstory will be 80% OC and 20% canon. The only guideline is that the fanon shouldn't gloss over or muck around with established canon.
About the whole Fluttershy-is-out-of-character thing; let me just establish one thing. I have very, very little sympathy for Fluttershy in this story. I don't want to drop spoilers, but please don't think that she's going to get away scott-free by the end of this; she's already caused a lot of damage and it will come home to roost. I've said it before and I'll say it again; given the opportunity, she will take a position of power and use it to assert dominance through cruel and aggressive behaviour. We've seen it in canon, and I think it's a legitimate side of her personality to use in fanon. That said, I should probably have made it clearer that Fluttershy shouldn't be sympathized with by having AJ actually fall out with her, or something along those lines.
You suggest that Fluttershy's nasty streak crops up in this story because she 'likes Trixie more than her friends'. In truth, I don't think that's the case. She doesn't like Trixie more than her friends; she feels a combination of empathy and sympathy, and an urge to protect that she doesn't have for her friends (because they're all pretty strong and independent). Trixie considers herself a 'failed unicorn', much like Fluttershy grew up with being a weak flier and hence, to her mind, a 'failed pegasus'. That allows her to be more open with her than she can usually be (I consider the romance to be as much symbiosis as anything else). The bigger deal, however, is the sympathy. She found Trixie in a very weakened state, and Trixie was in her full-time care for a while. Instinctually, she perceives all of the others as an inherent threat to Trixie. Much like her reaction to Twilight floating her animals about in Magic Duel, she tends to fly off the handle out of protectiveness, more than anything else. Unfortunately, that causes her cruel streak to flare up. Obviously the protectiveness is an issue, but I think there's something a lot deeper and more unpleasant in the character, which is one of the things I want to address with this story. I can see why it could look like it, but to me, the relationship between the characters isn't an expression of marysueism; if anything, it's a little unhealthy.
Tl;dr: With the exception of Applejack, I stand by my characterizations. That said, I'll certainly look through the story again to check that I conveyed the characters I intended to convey, rather than getting bogged down in implication too badly.
Bluh, sorry, that response turned into a bit of a wall of text. If you've ploughed all the way through to here, then thanks for hearing me out! As I say, I don't expect to change your mind; if you don't like it you don't like it, and that's fair enough. I just thought I'd put my two cents in!
Equally, about her feeling like an OC... well, that's pretty much it. The only canon backstory we have is that she's a travelling showpony. The rest is left open for fanon to fill in, which means any fanon characterization that goes into her backstory will be 80% OC and 20% canon. The only guideline is that the fanon shouldn't gloss over or muck around with established canon.
Yet you haven't put a single speck of her 'canon' self into your character at the present day, like I said: at this point she's basically an OC with how she acts, because there's no link in her behavior that links to what we know of her in the show.
Further more, when I say that Fluttershy in this story is out of character, it's not because she 'would never' act like this, but rather because there aren't enough changes we as readers can perceive. I do think that Fluttershy could act like this, but not all of a sudden. But rather as a spiral, she's simply protective at first (not trying to be cruel) and becomes more and more annoyed by her friends' doubts about both her and Trixie.
You suggest that Fluttershy's nasty streak crops up in this story because she 'likes Trixie more than her friends'. In truth, I don't think that's the case.
This isn't about what 'the case' is, but rather about how it feels to the reader. She excuses Trixie's— oh right, Trixie hasn't done anything wrong in this story, and instead outright attacks her friends when they worry for her. The marysueism in this case stems from the fact that Fluttershy is in love with her though we don't get told why, and all her wrongdoings are past wrong doings, she doesn't make a single real mistake in the story.
I'm not saying that what you've done absolutely couldn't happen, I'm just saying it would need a lot more perceptible changes (while remaining subtle) for: - Fluttershy to act toward her friends as she's been doing - Trixie to really change: A year spent alone, during which she's not talked to anypony, and she's gotten rid of talking about herself in third person? gotten rid of boasting, even if it's just a tiny amount? AND turning her character, the very core of her being around in a 180 spin? - The romance to really happen. Trixie finding a kind soul to help her when she needs it most and falling in love? fair enough, but Fluttershy can't just fall in love by virtue of similar problems in childhood, that's just not enough; yet we don't see any more than that.
I certainly wish you the best of luck with the rest of the story, but as it is now, it no longer interests me.
2284409 Dont take this the wrong way but.... Why? I guess the thing that always kind of comfused me was all of this OOC type of thing. I mean I am no great writer and I dont ecpect myself to be one. I mean I havent even read this story yet. But when I look at the comments and read what has been going on I cant help but get a little upset. Now I understand that you have an opinion and that so does everyone else but I just want to know something. It is called 'fan fiction' right? That should give the writer some wiggle room. Because in this case we havent seen this particular event play out yet. Well maybe we have. If you remember that Fluttershy got some bad judgement and almost lost her friends. Whats to say Trixie isnt having that effect on her? Look this is just my opinion and I know I have no idea what Im talking about. But lets just settle down and enjoy the story and not have a tangent about how it is wrong.
So you're telling me: "Just keep your mouth shut and enjoy the story." ? I'd like to, but I too have an opinion, and if you haven't read it, you really should before you start saying things like that.
Discourse is the best way we have to try and help people improve in all aspects of life, so please don't try and tell me to stop.
2287343 Look. I meant no ill will in that comment. I even said I respect your opinion. I have been reading it, and to be honest its been really good. I guess I just don't understand your point of view. Im sorry if I offended you.
2306754 Well Trixie does. She is still egotistical until she literally has to force it out. She has too much pride built up and that ends up almost killing her. She is still the Trixie we know just with a bit more piled on. I'm not going to try to argue with you on something that I'm not really good with. But all I'm really saying is that I don't really understand the banter. But that's just me. I respect your point of view even though I don't understand it.
I have seen 'Putting your hoof down' and yes, when she took it too far she hurt her friends. But not in this order of magnitude. Stamping on a pony's broken heart after they trusted you with it? That destroys friendships.
2333571 In all fairness, in that particular episode she did tell two of her best friends that the callings to which they'd dedicated their entire lives were utterly worthless. I'd say that's of a pretty similar magnitude, personally!
2333571 One rage fueled pissing match doesn't destroy a friendship unless that friendship is, itself, weak. These women have literally looked death in the face and spit in its eye together. It might be sanitized under a mountain of kid friendly pastels, but they've been through hell as a group. You experience something like that, you come together. It's not that easy to destroy that kind of bond.
I personally feel that, if you help somebody (or pony) through what could be the most painful thing in their life, and then turn around and use it as a weapon when they are concerned, you've thrown away your right to call yourself a friend.
(And if you'd read my comment carefully, you'd have noticed that my main problem was with the way Applejack acted afterwards.)
Celestia blast it. I wanted to finish this, I really did. But it's the quintessential romance novel, and, well.. I don't like romance novels.
Still, though. It was really good, up to the point that I got to (the end of A Night to Remember). Your characterization of Fluttershy is one of the best ones out there. I find that most of the time, Fluttershy is portrayed as crippingly shy, almost like the Lunaverse version of her. This is one of those stories where it's really noticeable that she's not so shy around her friends, and I like that.
You do, however, have a nasty case of LUS (Lavender Unicorn Syndrome, if you don't know). I could accept it at the beginning, because it was just Trixie calling Fluttershy the 'primrose mare' for lack of a more proper name. But then you started using that in Shy's perspective, and the 'canary mare', and the 'sapphire mare' for Trixie. It's perfectly ok to use a pony's name multiple times in the same paragraph, you know Actually, I heard a guy say once that names are invisible. You don't notice them, whereas with the descriptions you were using, you have to take that little bit of time to attach them to the name and the character. (And I don't even know what primrose is, so I had that problem, too ) It takes you out of the action a bit.
The other problem I really noticed was the whole voices-in-characters'-heads thing. I know people, and by extension, ponies, talk to themselves and all, but when their mind talks back, refers to itself in first person, and develops full-fledged personalities to argue with them? That, my friend, is schizophrenia.
Still, though. Great story, great building. I'm kinda wondering about how it's incomplete, considering how I left off at the climax, but since I'm not giving this a favorite or finishing it, I feel I shouldn't try to rail on that
First off, thanks for picking me up on the LUS; I know that's something I do, and I feel like it's been getting progressively worse lately, so I definitely need to pull back on it. The difficulty for me if that I'm intensely aware of that kind of repetition; whenever I'm reading a book, I notice repeated names, and also notice endless repetition of "he/she said", which probably goes some way to explain why I overuse words like "remarked" or "mused" instead of "said"... But yes, that's definitely something I need to wean myself off, so thanks for that!
About the multiple-internal-voices thing, I see what you mean. With Trixie, to be honest, that was pretty much what I was going for; considering the whole 'Great and Powerful' dissociation, coupled with the fact that she's been on her own for so long with several truckfuls of cognitive dissonance, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd picked up the odd psychosis along the way. If it crops up with Fluttershy, then I probably need to do something about that! A while ago I wrote a story in which Fluttershy actually had internal dialogue (again, due to loneliness/emotional repression). In this story it's probably less applicable, although I could still imagine her talking to herself a little, but probably not to the point of schizophrenia.
Thanks again for taking the time to do feedback, and sorry the whole romance business isn't really your thing!
3096162 Actually it should be coming out of hiatus soonish! I'm working on a couple of shortish projects at the moment, but as soon as they're done, this is going to be resuming! Also, thanks, you're enjoying the story!
3098393 I'm guessing he didnt mean the "when will the raman be done" kinda soon, but rather the "When will the sun expire and collapse into a white dwarf" kinda soon.
3314851 Turns out university applications are more time consuming than I'd expected. I am still working on the chapter, but things are necessarily kind of slow at the moment because of real-life silliness. Words are happening though, even if they're slow ones!
3318478 Slow words are better then No words, progress is always a good thing, even if it takes a while. So ill just be here...... in the bushes....... staring in your window..... waiting.
And if you'd read my comment carefully, you'd have noticed that my main problem was with the way Applejack acted afterwards.
My main problem was the way Applejack tried to force her way into Fluttershys house, when she clearly said "no you can't come in" multiple times.
I think Applejack got off easy with a bit of nastiness thrown at her, because you don't try to bully you way into someones home; such things lead to BLOWS. It's just that Applejack thought Fluttershy was weak and found out she wasn't.
Good for Fluttershy
So yeah, Applejack did the right thing and apologised for being a colossal ass.
3394726 Dammit, if I'd known this scene would be so contentious when I wrote it I'd have made AJ a lot more co-operative!
To be honest, I stand by the characterisations here, for the simple reason that I never intended the Fluttershy/Trixie relationship to come across as a particularly healthy one. This is largely a story about how too much care (of whatever kind) can cause damage and make people dangerous/unstable, and that's particularly visible in this scene. AJ cares about Fluttershy's safety but considers her weak, and her urge to protect her overwhelms her respect for Shy's wishes. Likewise, Fluttershy feels intensely protective towards Trixie which leads her to panic and say something incredibly cruel to AJ. The only reason AJ can forgive Shy for saying that is because she understands the impulse that made her say it, and realises immediately that she'd never mean something like that. Shy, in turn, can forgive AJ because she understands (probably from experience) how care can make you ignore someone's feelings and wishes while trying to protect them.
Ultimately, this scene's all about how protectiveness can cause damage. Both characters have something to apologise for by the end, the only difference being that AJ genuinely learns her lesson. Fluttershy, on the other hand... well, she doesn't quite yet.
I've run some edits on this story lately and I tweaked this scene a couple of weeks ago to hopefully make it a bit more obvious that they each what was going on in the other's head, rather than just out-of-nowhere seeming to forgive the unforgivable, so to speak.
If I were to name off some of my favorite authors on this site, it would be Cold in Gardez, device heretic, and you Ardensfax.
I thought your characterisation was fine. I was just giving the other guy a different point of view. Because for some odd reason he thought Fluttershy was completely in the wrong, and that bothered me.
On another note, Can't wait for the next chapter... Hope it's soon.
3399667 Hey, thanks! Being ranked alongside guys like that really means a lot.
I'm glad you feel the characterisation was alright; a couple of people have picked me up on the way Fluttershy acts (and the characterisation generally) so I've been editing to make her seem a little less... well, psychotic. Fixing up the character holes and making Trixie a bit less of detailed-history-but-no-real-character kind of character is my focus with this story at the moment, and it's something I'll carry on with alongside writing new chapters.
But thanks a lot for the encouragement; in its original form I felt this was by far the worst story I've written in terms of plain old bad execution, so it's good to know things are moving a bit more in the right direction now!
God, late chapter is horribly late. Sorry!
As I say, I'm not dead, or hiatusing, or going off the boil with writing, it's just that these last few weeks have been a small tin can full of craziness. The next chapter's in the works currently, so the wait shouldn't be nearly so bad next time around!
Nevertheless, enjoy!
Sees update.
Has this reaction:
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I will now proceed to read!
Very nice, good work. Good writing and good shipping, goodie :)
2271040
Finally, she told the primrose mare how Cheerilee had taken her away from the scene, and that she had no idea if Applejack had succeeded in bringing Dash around,
You put a comma instead of a dot at the end
Quite happy with this chapter, though I really want to know what is going on with Twilight.
I love it!
2271040
We all told the princess that, in future, we’d be sure to take our friends’ worries seriously, no matter how unimportant they seemed to us. Of course, that wasn’t really what we were promising; it was all so nice and diplomatic, but really we were promising the princess that we wouldn’t let it happen again, and… well, that we’d keep an eye on Twilight.”
Quotation mark missing at the beginning of the quote.
this story is in the featured box
I am so glad Rainbow and Trixie are at a ceasefire. Now Twilight needs to be confronted. Poor Angel. Looks like he has to find a bunny bar and drown his sorrows in carrot juice.
2271273 o.o <-- this should say it all
So, Trixie managed to make Fluttershy remember her other friends, Rainbow Dash apologized...seems like all that's left is confronting Twilight.
...which will probably wind up spiraling out of control simply because of how long Twilight's been going through this latest downward spiral.
2271243>>2271407>>2271543 Yes, I too am worriedfor Twilight
As I said before in a blog post, you have nothing to worry about -- we're not going anywhere, so work at the pace you like
This chapter was very pleasant and warm....it seemed to be all about fixing loose ends - now that the ice has been broken, Fluttershy and Trixie have no problem at all talking through their feelings and what they went through....it really made the whole chapter have a warm and snuggly feeling to it , or the coda after the climax of some sort....it was a time of self-reflection after all the events that have happened thus far, which made it feel really refreshing.
It was long too: I don't say that as a bad thing, but as busy as you say you are, I can also see why it took so long...because you really took your time and devoted a lot of attention and detail to every bit within this chapter, which was basically just talking: It was more than well-worth it though....really, like every chapter before it, it was very heavy on development and, in this one chapter alone, it's amazing how much these two simply by talking to each other and going through their feelings. There is more growth here, then in entire stories, and it's simply comes down to being because of how much time and focus you are willing to put into these two simply spending time together and going through their feelings....and I loved it - this stuff doesn't bore me in the least, quite the opposite.
I'm not sure why this chapter felt, in some sense, different then the chapters that came before, which were so similar, and, as before, I think it was simply because this is in a far more mature point in their relationship: these two have come a long way, and Trixie is no longer falling to pieces like she used too....helping Fluttershy with her anger indeed has, in some sense, grown and I like how that's become a focus as well: I was sort of disappointed how Twilight seemed to be doing all the helping in your TwiDash story: granted, the focus of the story was on Rainbow Dash, but I hoped more of that help would be reciprocated and Twilight would grow leaps and bounds in her own way just as much as Rainbow was. This story, in that sense, seems to be doing just that with delving more and more into Fluttershy's flaws growing up, and I like that.
You once told me in a reply that this story is more of a character-study then a romance, and reading this chapter, that feeling has really gotten to me more and more....for all the love expressed in this chapter, I didn't see it really as a romantic chapter, and perhaps, slowly, the whole story is getting to me that way -- that's not to say that I don't enjoy the romance and all it's endearment....but, to make an example, this chapter to me seemed much more Slice-of-Life than it did a romance chapter....there was tender feelings and adoration all over, and yet that simply wasn't what really had my focus, in all honesty.....your sheer focus on development, healing, and growth of these characters brings back what you said about this being a character-study, and that's what I really took from this -- the romance is the driving force that is making all of this happen, making these people happy and making amends with so much in their lives....but it's the growth itself, the talking back and forth about the past and all their problems...that's what really got my attention: it almost makes the romance seem almost superficial to it all.
Fluttershy really got my attention in this chapter....not necessarily in a bad way, but her rage is something that's really popping up lately, and I would say it feels almost out-of-character for her if it wasn't hypocritical - because again, for all the focus on Trixie, the really greater focus, perhaps the overarching theme of the story.....is Masks - on the layers hidden underneath which everybody has....Fluttershy, almost brute, touched upon Rainbow Dash's, whilst revealing a bit about herself (her anger, as well her surprising wisdom and wordplay -- again, I wouldn't say it wasn't necessarily OOC or bad, but it definitely stuck out a like a sore-thumb), Pinkie Pie shows some of her patience and gentleness beneath her hyperactivity.....Fluttershy said that they were meeting Trixie for the first time, and yet, on some level, I wonder just how much everyone really knows about each other....yes, I suppose, even among the tight-knit group of friends they may be, I don't expect the Mane 6, or anybody group of people, to really know everything about a person....and yet, it still seemed to be a subtle theme here, at least to me.
It was a chapter full of insights, and deep-thinking...it feels, on a superficial level, that the only remaining loose thread is Twilight....but of course, that would be too easy :P - there is still a whole journey awaiting Trixie on figuring out who she really is, what her special talent is....and I can only imagine what road you'll take: I can't wait to see
I never ever thought I'd say this but: GO TRIXIE! WOOHOO! I love how she talked Fluttershy down from from going Flutterbitch on Rainbow dash :D
Also, seriously, what the hell is up with Twilight? Is she jealous of Fluttershy? Or Trixie?
Everything that needed to be said has already been. Excellent. Truly excellent. Very curious to see what Twilight is going to bring to this party. Eagerly awaiting more and recommending to all who will listen.
2272204
Or it could be paranoia caused by the reintroduction of someone you used to consider an enemy being put into "a friendly position" compounded by highly erratic, worrying mind that is highly strategic and intelligent. Couple that with other aspects of Twilight's personality and it is a recipe for disaster that makes her current behavior very worrying and make perfect sense.
STAY AWAY FROM TRIXIE!!!
iambrony.steeph.tp-radio.de/mlp/gif/180681__UNOPT__safe_twilight-sparkle_fluttershy_animated_magic-duel.gif
That's how i see first half of the history
Well, we don't know what's going on with Twi yet but we are now 1 chapter closer. Also adorableness.
2274031
I think chapter 5 is the first time the concept's introduced (besides a hint earlier on), but Fluttershy has something of a tendency to lash out in this story, since Trixie popped up in her life. Obviously I don't want to drop spoilers about it, but this isn't an isolated incident, and there is a reason behind it. Is it uncharacteristic behaviour? Yes. Is it downright out-of-character? Obviously that's for the reader to decide, but given the mindset that she's slipping into at this point, I don't think so. Look at the episode with Iron Will; the course was designed to teach assertion, but she took that and turned it into an exercise in cruelty and power-expression, without any prompting. I think there's a reason for that, and it's part of what I want to explore in this story.
As for AJ's behaviour, the bottom line is that she's honest. She knows that Fluttershy's right (even though what she's saying is cruel), which makes it easier for her to see that Fluttershy's stressed to a great degree over something, and that she wouldn't normally behave that way. I imagine AJ was hurt and angry, but she's be a pretty terrible friend if she punched or ditched such a consistently good friend over a heat-of-the-moment outburst, particularly one that makes it quite plain that something's seriously the matter with Fluttershy.
Obviously the final word of any story (or any kind of art, really) is what the reader sees in it, not what the writer intended them to, so I'll have another look over the scene from the point of view of someone who doesn't know what's going on in Shy's head. I can see that it could feel a bit jarring, character-wise, although hopefully the later chapters clarify things a little.
PS: about the Fluttershy thing, if you're not bothered about spoilers, there's a bit more of a detailed explanation in my reply to Sheik's comment, but it's a bit spoilery and doesn't address the AJ business.
2272178 Woo, epic comment!
Firstly, I'm glad you think the characterisation works in this chapter; as you say, this one was designed to bring out the more character-centric elements of the story, and obviously it's a step back in pace from the party scenes, etc.
I suppose the concept that 'everyone has a mask' is one of the big ones in this story. With Fluttershy, it's fairly complicated. I think the bottom line for her character is that she has the exact same cruelty potential as Trixie, due to the inferiority complex she spent so long repressing. The difference is that she repressed it a lot better than Trixie, because she's fundamentally got a far stronger will. When she becomes aggressive in this story, it's actually mostly the fact that she's extremely protective of Trixie, in the same way any mother will go completely off the deep end if you threaten her kids.
Unfortunately, it manifests itself as anger because of all of the buried frustration, which often turns into her unconsciously trying to assert power over the other (ie, through cruelty or aggression). Obviously, it took someone on the outside (Trixie) to recognize the problem and try to put it right. She didn't go for the root (the sense of inadequacy), but I imagine that's an aspect that'll be dealt with in time.
Basically, Fluttershy can be a bully because of a suppressed sense of inferiority, whereas Dash can be a bully because of a very non-suppressed sense of superiority. They're two ends of a spectrum, so to speak.
Blurgh, sorry, I realize that's a bit of a wall-of-text that might just sound like waffle! Thanks for the great comments, and I'm really glad you're enjoying the story!
Twilight? Is she jealous of Fluttershy?
After reading through all of it (at the coaxing of some friends) I have to say...
I don't like it.
The very start of the story is all 'somehows' and 'someways' and it doesn't get better from there.
All I know about this story's Trixie is that she has some inner demons that up till now haven't caused her any problems (other than looking back at the past) and that she had an earthpony lover and a normal childhood. The mare herself is utterly interchangeable with any other OC besides the fact that an OC would have stolen Trixie's canonical backstory.
She she only grows in the slightest of ways when she 'defeats' her great and powerful self (whom, again, we know nothing about other than flashbacks which don't feel intimidating in the slightest) and the rest of it is all just... there. She loves Fluttershy as much from the moment she lays eyes on her as in this latest chapter. And all her other actions are completely forgettable.
Then we come to the reason this story is getting a downvote from me: Fluttershy.
Either the 'primrose' pegasus has been taken over by a changeling who hasn't quite gotten the act down just yet, or she's simply very badly characterized. She likes Trixie... somehow, and likes her more than any of her friends (oh hello marysueism, didn't see you there...)
Then the backstory which is remarkably similar yet doesn't tell us a thing.
The bombshell for me was the way she treated Applejack however. (don't get me wrong, I disliked the way she treats all of her friends, save for Rarity who seems to be immune from author induced hatred)
But yes, Applejack.
Not only does she (Fluttershy) attack one of her best friends who is simply concerned, but she does it in the most cruel way, and with the most hurtful things possible. (This is the sort of thing that breaks friendships)
Now, while talking about it somebody pointed out that it could be because she's scared. And I could potentially agree with that.
HOWEVER.
Not only does AJ not immediately buck her in the face or as a second best run off the moment the door closes in partial fury partial hurt at the betrayal, no, she instead apologizes and acts like she was at fault aswell. And this, is wrong on so many levels, it just made my blood boil.
Other than that, only minor sentence wording which became very annoying after a while.
In summary:
-The only two ponies I really feel sorry for in this story are Applejack and Twilight (because I just know Twilight is going to end up either an antagonist or in some deep shit Trixie is supposed to rescue her from).
- I like Rarity, hers was the character you captured best.
- I'm ambivalent about Dash, Pinkie and Trixie
- And I've grown to hate Fluttershy, which is a first for me, so congratulations on that.
2274889
No, believe me, it wasn't a wall of text, not even close -- I deliberately try to go beyond the typical one sentence "review" whenever I try to comment on people's stories: it sticks out like a sore-thumb to people, but I see that as being for the wrong reasons....if your post was a wall, mine was a mountain.
I certainly didn't think Fluttershy was out of character -- even if you must look only toward the canon, it's hard to disagree to not see some lingering anger in the girl, and it's not much of a stretch to take that, cultivate it, and make it a major plot point like you are doing. I remember reading once that someone said that Fluttershy's words to Rarity and Pinkie Pie during the Iron Will episode were her honest feelings, and not simply her acting crazy, and It's easy to feel that way.....her words were, not simply hurtful, but very blunt and down to the core, and when stripped of pretense, what she feels about her friends isn't very nice....you simply can't blame Iron Will exclusively, but have to look at Fluttershy and wonder just what's really going on behind her scared persona -- No, she shouldn't have treated her friends like that, even if what she says can be perceived as truthful from a certain point of view, but even so...it really makes you re-evaluate Fluttershy in a whole new way and what she is capable of.
It's really really easy to unconsciously start to see characters as archetypes or one-dimensional -- everyone has certain perceptions about a character, and as time goes on, flexibility starts to go down, and attempting to present or show other aspects of said-character are derailed as "OOC"...it's the behavior that, not only stifles creativity, but isn't even necessarily correct all the time. When you are so used to seeing Fluttershy as "delicate and demure", as Twilight called her, it becomes hard to see her as anything else, or to even think there is anything going on behind that pretty face. It's something that's two-fold.....on one hand, everyone has favorite interpretations of characters, and some are dearer than others and seen as being more "canon"...on the other hand, a little creativity goes a long way, and holding onto too much to a rote presentation of a character makes it hard to ever see them portrayed in any other way....in a way, they start to become one-dimensional and that's a problem. Even if it's not something typically seen from a specific character, or doesn't have much evidence showing it within the show-canon, again, a little creativity goes a long way, and even if people don't like it, at least you can get them thinking in new ways and perhaps seeing "Ohh, I can see him/her portrayed liked that".
What you've done with Fluttershy isn't even extreme -- as before, you've taken some little bits of "evidence" throughout the show, that many others have done, and turned it into a big focus....that's not to say this is not Fluttershy anymore - it's simply a side of her that isn't really seen all that often, and that doesn't make it a bad thing. That other people do, is really simply their personal outlook and probably comes from them holding onto too much to a specific interpretation: they are entitled to it, but my point is, doing things like this isn't as radical as one may think.
When it comes to Trixie, I'll say what I said before -- I like what you are doing with her, because it's a route that I simply don't see very often at all....however, as I wrote before, a part of me also fears that she'll become unrecognizable.....she is not the magician she thought she was or wanted to be, so where will that leave her? I don't know, but I hope, whatever she does, it doesn't mean she'll totally forget her time as an illusionist at least in some form - that all the time she spent, harmful perhaps it was, will serve some purpose for her in the future because that's how I recognize her.
See? Even I fall for it.....the characters shouldn't be known for gimmicky reasons (Trixie the showmare, Fluttershy the scared pegasus, RD the jock, Twilight the nerd, Rarity the drama queen, AJ the hard-worker, Pinkie the party animal, et.al)...and yet, in a lot of ways, that's exactly what it is, and we love them for that -- we love the characters for the simplicity they can have, and archetypes and tropes are not necessarily bad things: they are what people recognize and look for in stories....which makes it hard to see the characters as three-dimensional and seen as anything else...because even though I love the idea of seeing Trixie portrayed in this brand new light, how she is, how she always is or at least how I"m used to seeing her (the flashy egotistical magician), is what drew me to her from the start and how I know and perceive her the most.
To avoid the trap of being called "OOC", it really simply comes down to simply, step by step, making it so the audience understands why you have portrayed whoever in the fashion you have, even if they are not personally crazy for said-persona. I've seen countless presentations of all the characters I love....some I love more than others, yes, but, the ones I love the most anyway, I can understand why the author went the road they did even if it wasn't the first persona that came to mind or how I usually see them....I never saw the characters as changlings in disguise, but the same people showing sides that I simply have never seen before...and when it's pulled off successfully, the results can be absolutely spectacular -- because, even if it's a persona I wouldn't call my personal favorite and I still feel the conventional done-to-death canon-persona is my favorite (like the types listed above...Lyra the human-lover and her mare-friend Bon Bon, goofy but deep single mom Derpy and her daughter, Berry Punch and her drinking problem, blah blah blah...), I can still love and appreciate this new outlook on my favorite characters and it, overall, fleshes them out and makes them even more 'real' to me.
Bottom line....No, Fluttershy isn't out of character for me here, she is simply showing there is more to her than meets the eye: take it, or leave it.
2277145
This. While I don't hate the story for it, it is extremely off from the norm on all the characters and is really lacking on some parts. I plan on following the story just because there are very few reasons that I stop reading a story, but there are many things that can be fixed.
2277145
First of all, fair enough! I can definitely understand you not liking the story; in fact, it'd be pretty stupid of me to set out writing a story with the aim of pleasing everyone.
Just to address a few of your points (obviously I don't think I'll be able to change your mind, just giving you my point of view on the whole thing.)
First and foremost, I see where you're coming from with Applejack. I stand by the way Fluttershy behaved (I think it was cruel and unjustified, but I wouldn't call it out-of-character for reasons I'll come to in a minute), but, even though I imagine AJ would have been able to forgive a heat-of-the-moment piece of nastiness, it was a bad call to show AJ acting conciliatory.
To address the Trixie's characterization issues, I don't really agree that Trixie's 'inner demons' haven't caused her any problems. I mean, they filled her childhood with a massive inferiority complex, ruined the only relationship she ever considered worth holding on to, and basically destroyed any chance she had at a normal life. Within the actual story though, it was pretty much intended from the start that the 'inner demons' wouldn't cause her much difficulty (at this stage, anyhow). It's explicitly stated on several occasions that she lost all of the (misguided) faith in her own power during the incident at Ponyville. It broke the hold that side of her personality had over her. All the 'attacks' that take place up until this point in the story is the psychosis (or whatever you'd call it) attempting to claw its way back into a position of power, with (at this point) little success. If her inner demons don't feel threatening, that's probably because they don't presently pose much of a threat, because Trixie's sense of inadequacy (which 'fed' them) is diminished. However, I'd argue that in the past, while she still let them in, they caused an immense amount of damage for a lot of her life.
Equally, about her feeling like an OC... well, that's pretty much it. The only canon backstory we have is that she's a travelling showpony. The rest is left open for fanon to fill in, which means any fanon characterization that goes into her backstory will be 80% OC and 20% canon. The only guideline is that the fanon shouldn't gloss over or muck around with established canon.
About the whole Fluttershy-is-out-of-character thing; let me just establish one thing. I have very, very little sympathy for Fluttershy in this story. I don't want to drop spoilers, but please don't think that she's going to get away scott-free by the end of this; she's already caused a lot of damage and it will come home to roost. I've said it before and I'll say it again; given the opportunity, she will take a position of power and use it to assert dominance through cruel and aggressive behaviour. We've seen it in canon, and I think it's a legitimate side of her personality to use in fanon. That said, I should probably have made it clearer that Fluttershy shouldn't be sympathized with by having AJ actually fall out with her, or something along those lines.
You suggest that Fluttershy's nasty streak crops up in this story because she 'likes Trixie more than her friends'. In truth, I don't think that's the case. She doesn't like Trixie more than her friends; she feels a combination of empathy and sympathy, and an urge to protect that she doesn't have for her friends (because they're all pretty strong and independent). Trixie considers herself a 'failed unicorn', much like Fluttershy grew up with being a weak flier and hence, to her mind, a 'failed pegasus'. That allows her to be more open with her than she can usually be (I consider the romance to be as much symbiosis as anything else). The bigger deal, however, is the sympathy. She found Trixie in a very weakened state, and Trixie was in her full-time care for a while. Instinctually, she perceives all of the others as an inherent threat to Trixie. Much like her reaction to Twilight floating her animals about in Magic Duel, she tends to fly off the handle out of protectiveness, more than anything else. Unfortunately, that causes her cruel streak to flare up. Obviously the protectiveness is an issue, but I think there's something a lot deeper and more unpleasant in the character, which is one of the things I want to address with this story. I can see why it could look like it, but to me, the relationship between the characters isn't an expression of marysueism; if anything, it's a little unhealthy.
Tl;dr: With the exception of Applejack, I stand by my characterizations. That said, I'll certainly look through the story again to check that I conveyed the characters I intended to convey, rather than getting bogged down in implication too badly.
Bluh, sorry, that response turned into a bit of a wall of text. If you've ploughed all the way through to here, then thanks for hearing me out! As I say, I don't expect to change your mind; if you don't like it you don't like it, and that's fair enough. I just thought I'd put my two cents in!
2284280
Yet you haven't put a single speck of her 'canon' self into your character at the present day, like I said: at this point she's basically an OC with how she acts, because there's no link in her behavior that links to what we know of her in the show.
Further more, when I say that Fluttershy in this story is out of character, it's not because she 'would never' act like this, but rather because there aren't enough changes we as readers can perceive.
I do think that Fluttershy could act like this, but not all of a sudden. But rather as a spiral, she's simply protective at first (not trying to be cruel) and becomes more and more annoyed by her friends' doubts about both her and Trixie.
This isn't about what 'the case' is, but rather about how it feels to the reader. She excuses Trixie's— oh right, Trixie hasn't done anything wrong in this story, and instead outright attacks her friends when they worry for her.
The marysueism in this case stems from the fact that Fluttershy is in love with her though we don't get told why, and all her wrongdoings are past wrong doings, she doesn't make a single real mistake in the story.
I'm not saying that what you've done absolutely couldn't happen, I'm just saying it would need a lot more perceptible changes (while remaining subtle)
for:
- Fluttershy to act toward her friends as she's been doing
- Trixie to really change: A year spent alone, during which she's not talked to anypony, and she's gotten rid of talking about herself in third person? gotten rid of boasting, even if it's just a tiny amount? AND turning her character, the very core of her being around in a 180 spin?
- The romance to really happen. Trixie finding a kind soul to help her when she needs it most and falling in love? fair enough, but Fluttershy can't just fall in love by virtue of similar problems in childhood, that's just not enough; yet we don't see any more than that.
I certainly wish you the best of luck with the rest of the story, but as it is now, it no longer interests me.
MOAR! Pwease?
2284409
Dont take this the wrong way but.... Why? I guess the thing that always kind of comfused me was all of this OOC type of thing. I mean I am no great writer and I dont ecpect myself to be one. I mean I havent even read this story yet. But when I look at the comments and read what has been going on I cant help but get a little upset. Now I understand that you have an opinion and that so does everyone else but I just want to know something. It is called 'fan fiction' right? That should give the writer some wiggle room. Because in this case we havent seen this particular event play out yet. Well maybe we have. If you remember that Fluttershy got some bad judgement and almost lost her friends. Whats to say Trixie isnt having that effect on her? Look this is just my opinion and I know I have no idea what Im talking about. But lets just settle down and enjoy the story and not have a tangent about how it is wrong.
2285806
So you're telling me: "Just keep your mouth shut and enjoy the story." ? I'd like to, but I too have an opinion, and if you haven't read it, you really should before you start saying things like that.
Discourse is the best way we have to try and help people improve in all aspects of life, so please don't try and tell me to stop.
2287343
Look. I meant no ill will in that comment. I even said I respect your opinion. I have been reading it, and to be honest its been really good. I guess I just don't understand your point of view. Im sorry if I offended you.
2306738
Please, don't think that I'm offended or mad in any way. I just disagree with your statement.
Wiggle room is a good thing, and it's needed to even be able to make a story. But tell me this: What do you see Trixie as? And what about Fluttershy?
If Fluttershy acts entirely like Rainbow Dash for example, is it still Fluttershy? or are you looking at a painted version of Dash?
If Trixie doesn't act like we know her to be in any way, and the story doesn't show us the changes, is she still Trixie?
2306754
Well Trixie does. She is still egotistical until she literally has to force it out. She has too much pride built up and that ends up almost killing her. She is still the Trixie we know just with a bit more piled on. I'm not going to try to argue with you on something that I'm not really good with. But all I'm really saying is that I don't really understand the banter. But that's just me. I respect your point of view even though I don't understand it.
2332724
I have seen 'Putting your hoof down' and yes, when she took it too far she hurt her friends.
But not in this order of magnitude. Stamping on a pony's broken heart after they trusted you with it? That destroys friendships.
2333571 In all fairness, in that particular episode she did tell two of her best friends that the callings to which they'd dedicated their entire lives were utterly worthless. I'd say that's of a pretty similar magnitude, personally!
2333571 One rage fueled pissing match doesn't destroy a friendship unless that friendship is, itself, weak. These women have literally looked death in the face and spit in its eye together. It might be sanitized under a mountain of kid friendly pastels, but they've been through hell as a group. You experience something like that, you come together. It's not that easy to destroy that kind of bond.
2335692
Then let us agree, to disagree.
I personally feel that, if you help somebody (or pony) through what could be the most painful thing in their life, and then turn around and use it as a weapon when they are concerned, you've thrown away your right to call yourself a friend.
(And if you'd read my comment carefully, you'd have noticed that my main problem was with the way Applejack acted afterwards.)
2417147 Non-consensual Trixie-on-Trixie makeout? Non-consensual Trixie-on-Trixie makeout!
Celestia blast it. I wanted to finish this, I really did. But it's the quintessential romance novel, and, well.. I don't like romance novels.
Still, though. It was really good, up to the point that I got to (the end of A Night to Remember). Your characterization of Fluttershy is one of the best ones out there. I find that most of the time, Fluttershy is portrayed as crippingly shy, almost like the Lunaverse version of her. This is one of those stories where it's really noticeable that she's not so shy around her friends, and I like that.
You do, however, have a nasty case of LUS (Lavender Unicorn Syndrome, if you don't know). I could accept it at the beginning, because it was just Trixie calling Fluttershy the 'primrose mare' for lack of a more proper name. But then you started using that in Shy's perspective, and the 'canary mare', and the 'sapphire mare' for Trixie. It's perfectly ok to use a pony's name multiple times in the same paragraph, you know Actually, I heard a guy say once that names are invisible. You don't notice them, whereas with the descriptions you were using, you have to take that little bit of time to attach them to the name and the character. (And I don't even know what primrose is, so I had that problem, too ) It takes you out of the action a bit.
The other problem I really noticed was the whole voices-in-characters'-heads thing. I know people, and by extension, ponies, talk to themselves and all, but when their mind talks back, refers to itself in first person, and develops full-fledged personalities to argue with them? That, my friend, is schizophrenia.
Still, though. Great story, great building. I'm kinda wondering about how it's incomplete, considering how I left off at the climax, but since I'm not giving this a favorite or finishing it, I feel I shouldn't try to rail on that
2584425 Hey, thanks for the feedback!
First off, thanks for picking me up on the LUS; I know that's something I do, and I feel like it's been getting progressively worse lately, so I definitely need to pull back on it. The difficulty for me if that I'm intensely aware of that kind of repetition; whenever I'm reading a book, I notice repeated names, and also notice endless repetition of "he/she said", which probably goes some way to explain why I overuse words like "remarked" or "mused" instead of "said"... But yes, that's definitely something I need to wean myself off, so thanks for that!
About the multiple-internal-voices thing, I see what you mean. With Trixie, to be honest, that was pretty much what I was going for; considering the whole 'Great and Powerful' dissociation, coupled with the fact that she's been on her own for so long with several truckfuls of cognitive dissonance, I wouldn't be surprised if she'd picked up the odd psychosis along the way. If it crops up with Fluttershy, then I probably need to do something about that! A while ago I wrote a story in which Fluttershy actually had internal dialogue (again, due to loneliness/emotional repression). In this story it's probably less applicable, although I could still imagine her talking to herself a little, but probably not to the point of schizophrenia.
Thanks again for taking the time to do feedback, and sorry the whole romance business isn't really your thing!
"Mind if we come in? We’re freezing our hoofsies off out here and I dunno what I’d do without mine!”
THAT IS THE BEST LINE.
Seriously, so Pinkie Pie it hurts.
But otherwise, another masterwork in the making.
"Huh, this looks like a good fic"
Reads the first chapter.
"Wow this is awesome..."
Looks down to check the progress.
"On Hiatus?! NOOOOOOO!!!!!!"
*goes to the corner of his room, curls up into a ball, and cries himself to sleep*
3096162 Actually it should be coming out of hiatus soonish! I'm working on a couple of shortish projects at the moment, but as soon as they're done, this is going to be resuming! Also, thanks, you're enjoying the story!
*uncurls himself from the corner of his room
"Really its going to be updated soon?!"
*Jumps and dances around his room
"Yay, yay, yay, yay!!!!"
3098393 I'm guessing he didnt mean the
"when will the raman be done" kinda soon,
but rather the
"When will the sun expire and collapse into a white dwarf" kinda soon.
3314851 Turns out university applications are more time consuming than I'd expected. I am still working on the chapter, but things are necessarily kind of slow at the moment because of real-life silliness. Words are happening though, even if they're slow ones!
3318478 Slow words are better then No words, progress is always a good thing, even if it takes a while.
So ill just be here......
in the bushes.......
staring in your window.....
waiting.
2335764
My main problem was the way Applejack tried to force her way into Fluttershys house, when she clearly said "no you can't come in" multiple times.
I think Applejack got off easy with a bit of nastiness thrown at her, because you don't try to bully you way into someones home; such things lead to BLOWS. It's just that Applejack thought Fluttershy was weak and found out she wasn't.
Good for Fluttershy
So yeah, Applejack did the right thing and apologised for being a colossal ass.
3394726 Dammit, if I'd known this scene would be so contentious when I wrote it I'd have made AJ a lot more co-operative!
To be honest, I stand by the characterisations here, for the simple reason that I never intended the Fluttershy/Trixie relationship to come across as a particularly healthy one. This is largely a story about how too much care (of whatever kind) can cause damage and make people dangerous/unstable, and that's particularly visible in this scene. AJ cares about Fluttershy's safety but considers her weak, and her urge to protect her overwhelms her respect for Shy's wishes. Likewise, Fluttershy feels intensely protective towards Trixie which leads her to panic and say something incredibly cruel to AJ. The only reason AJ can forgive Shy for saying that is because she understands the impulse that made her say it, and realises immediately that she'd never mean something like that. Shy, in turn, can forgive AJ because she understands (probably from experience) how care can make you ignore someone's feelings and wishes while trying to protect them.
Ultimately, this scene's all about how protectiveness can cause damage. Both characters have something to apologise for by the end, the only difference being that AJ genuinely learns her lesson. Fluttershy, on the other hand... well, she doesn't quite yet.
I've run some edits on this story lately and I tweaked this scene a couple of weeks ago to hopefully make it a bit more obvious that they each what was going on in the other's head, rather than just out-of-nowhere seeming to forgive the unforgivable, so to speak.
3398745
If I were to name off some of my favorite authors on this site, it would be Cold in Gardez, device heretic, and you Ardensfax.
I thought your characterisation was fine. I was just giving the other guy a different point of view. Because for some odd reason he thought Fluttershy was completely in the wrong, and that bothered me.
On another note, Can't wait for the next chapter... Hope it's soon.
3399667 Hey, thanks! Being ranked alongside guys like that really means a lot.
I'm glad you feel the characterisation was alright; a couple of people have picked me up on the way Fluttershy acts (and the characterisation generally) so I've been editing to make her seem a little less... well, psychotic. Fixing up the character holes and making Trixie a bit less of detailed-history-but-no-real-character kind of character is my focus with this story at the moment, and it's something I'll carry on with alongside writing new chapters.
But thanks a lot for the encouragement; in its original form I felt this was by far the worst story I've written in terms of plain old bad execution, so it's good to know things are moving a bit more in the right direction now!