Fluttershy Shipping Analysis, with an Emphasis on Flutterdash · 11:52pm May 25th, 2014
General
Many people try to analyze Flutterdash operating on the assumption that they just met recently, and are now trying to understand one another. But the truth is almost the opposite of this They originate from the same culture, and have been friends with one another since childhood. And each knows what the other wants because they have talked to each other again and again for over a decade. Each, furthermore, wants the other to achieve her ends.
Many also assume that Rainbow Dash is the dominant one of the pair. Note, however, that when all the drama is done, it's usually Fluttershy who gets what she wants. Fluttershy's personality is very strongly dominant over that of Rainbow Dash. Something of which Rainbow Dash is aware but doesn't fully understand the operation.
To illustrate, Rainbow Dash went along on the Butterfly Migration. Did Fluttershy go on the Dragon Migration?
Fluttershy is a classic passive-aggressive personality, and she's very good at playing the game, even though I can almost swear that she doesn't know that she's doing it. What's more, she probably first learned to play the game with Rainbow Dash. She has strong goals and she manipulates her friends into achieving them, and she does it so subtly that they mostly don't know they're being manipulated.
Rainbow Dash
Rainbow Dash herself, unless she's an idiot, almost certainly knows that she's being manipulated. The thing is that Rainbow Dash doesn't mind it. Rainbow Dash wants to be the big hero, and Fluttershy lets her do this -- Fluttershy is somepony who gets into emotional distress, and then Rainbow Dash gets to save the damsel in distress. If you consider this as Romantic Friendship role-playing, you'll get what I mean.
Why doesn't Rainbow Dash mind it? Because Fluttershy gives her someone to whom she can fulfill her ideal of Loyalty. Fluttershy also doesn't make all that many demands: she dominates, but she doesn't ask Rainbow Dash to do anything against her own nature, and she's supportive of Rainbow Dash when Rainbow wants to do things in pursuit of Rainbow's own goals.
Rainbow Dash, of course, doesn't seem to be getting much if any actual sexual satisfaction out of it. But then Rainbow doesn't seem to have all that urgent or mature a sex drive. She's bisexual, but probably sees herself as heterosexual, and seems to be waiting for the right stallion to happen along, and in the meantime she can be Fluttershy's hero -- a role which she could continue to play after marriage to somepony else. And she gets to have Fluttershy's friendship, which means a lot to Rainbow.
And she really does care a lot about Fluttershy, which is why she wants to protect her.
Fluttershy
What does Fluttershy get out of it? Well, when she was small, she really needed protection. She doesn't now -- aside from the fact that Fluttershy is now known by everypony to be high-status, and is a friend of the most powerful entities in Equestria, she has awesome psychic powers in her own right and moreover now knows how to fully control them -- she could do anything from mildly compel an assailant to back off to reducing him to a mindless husk, with one good Stare.
However, she remembers and is grateful for the times that Rainbow Dash protected her. (That's why she breaks down so badly in "Dragonshy" when Rainbow Dash instead views her with open scorn -- she's been turned on by the one she normally counts her protector -- read Dragonshyness for what it looks like from her own Point Of View. And she trusts Rainbow Dash, which is important to her because she is far more afraid of emotional rejection than she is of most physical threats. Specifically, she trusts Rainbow Dash to always see her as emotionally important to her, rather than merely taking advantage of her.
What else does she get out of it? Fluttershy's actually a lot more openly sexual than is Rainbow Dash, and is quite aware of it. She also has a stronger sex drive. I postulate, following Bad Horse's idea, that Fluttershy got badly burned when she first tried to reach out sexually to other Ponies, and in consequence is afraid of most other Ponies' sexuality. Especially stallions. A fear she only starts to recover from after she begins to be convinced once again of her own worth by her friends, see A Robust Solution.
Why, by the way, am I so convinced of the likelihood of this? Because Fluttershy -- at the start of the series -- has several traits that make her exploitation in her youth almost unavoidable. She's supernally beautiful (in canon, enough to become a popular fashion model without really trying), she's very naive about how other Ponies think, and her usual method of getting along with others is passive-aggressive -- she submits until her submission earns her enough sympathy that she gets what she wants. The combination of this with normal male psychology suggests the obvious disaster should she meet somepony who doesn't give a damn how sympathetic she is, and when one considers that she's a crazy recluse at the start of the series, it's obvious that she's hiding from other Ponies in consquence.
Rainbow Dash is both somepony whom Fluttershy has loved as a friend since childhood and somepony who is absolutely safe to love, because Rainbow Dash generally doesn't demand anything all that scary or terrible from her. Certainly, Rainbow Dash would never force her into any uncomfortable intimacies, while at the same time she's receptive to Fluttershy (viewing her almost as her Lady in a rather rough and childish version of Courtly Love). Rainbow Dash is, in almost every way that might threaten Fluttershy, completely under her control.
(almost like a Warrior protecting the Queen of a eusocial community, but then I doubt that Fluttershy Is Free is what the writers had in mind about Fluttershy's nature).
Which doesn't mean that the relationship is necessarily all that emotionally healthy for either of them, though it could grow into a healthy one in time. But of course it gets aborted, or semi-aborted, by two factors in canon.
(1) Fluttershy is Celestia's Honey Trap for Discord
I don't think this takes the crude form of Fluttershy simply offering Discord sex for loyalty. For one thing, Discord is scarcely hard up for mere sex, as he has almost an infinite number of ways of compelling, summoning or trading for it, even assuming that he has all that much of a sex drive (he's an immortal alien, so that's hardly to be assumed).
What is going on is that Fluttershy is, in her usual passive-aggressive way, offering Discord friendship for loyalty. And, increasingly, love for loyalty. And that's gotta be getting in the way of any nascent relationship between Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash, especially because Rainbow Dash hates Discord the most out of any of the Mane Six. And I find it interesting that she does.
And it's working. Yes, Discord betrayed them the last time his loyalty was tested, but in the long run, that let Fluttershy tighten her control over him. Discord was increasingly-uncomfortable with betraying Fluttershy even before Tirek turned on him. I'd say the probability is strongly that Discord now feels loyal to Fluttershy -- and since Fluttershy is loyal to Celestia ...
(2) - Fluttershy Is Less Afraid of Stallions Now
Fluttershy is bisexual, but probably more hetrosexual than homosexual within that orientation. And she's learned that she can be safe around a stallion, provided that she picks a stallion whom she can emotionally-dominate.
Thus, Bulk Biceps. We can argue about what's going on there -- whether it's just a romantic friendship or a fully-consummated love affair, or somewhere in between -- but it's very obvious that Fluttershy likes him, likes hanging out with him, and feels completely comfortable flirting with him outrageously. She's neither afraid of rape (she's much more powerful than him, and he obviously worships her) nor undue emotional pressure, whether for sex or for marriage (she can manipulate him easily by playing on his emotions without even having to use her psychic powers). She's found a member of her own species, even her own Kind, whom she can treat rather like one of her larger and more potentially dangerous animal friends
So What Does This All Mean?.
I'm not certain of the resolution of all this myself. One of the possibilities is that Rainbow Dash becomes the Lucky Childhood Friend. Another is that we see a Royal Wedding (of sorts) between Discord and Fluttershy. A third is that she goes for Bulk Biceps. She might go for none of the above. And she might just go fof All of the Above.
It has occurred to me that we, the fans, are a bit manipulated by Fluttershy's own tactics. She actually strikes me as the one of the Mane Six who would be most comfortable with promsicuity or polyamory, as long as she remained in control of all the relationships involved. Not that she's an Evil Vamp -- quite the contrary, she'd also want all her lovers to be happy, which would be the main limitation on her actions. -- as it is on her Mind Control powers.
Seriously, though -- if Fluttershy wasn't a really nice Pony, she could be Chrysalis. She has the right power mix for super-villainy.
Very interesting. I tend to favor AppleShy myself for some of the same reasons but without the prior knowledge of each other (and more common interests,) but you do make a very strong, compelling case for FlutterDash as a (mostly) platonic relationship.
I don't think that Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash have enough in common, however, to really find things in common that both enjoy doing. I don't think it would be a stable relationship, and probably not a healthy one in the long term. I've been on Rainbow's side of a passive aggressive relationship. It was not healthy for either of us. But, I do see where they would start down that path.
Also, the Tropes link doesn't seem to work. Did you mean: Complete Monster?
I see Fluttershy more being into Rainbow Dash or Bulk Biceps for potential mates rather than Discord. I agree with your assessment of Discord's motive (or lack thereof) when it comes to sex/relationships. I see Fluttershy more behaving towards Discord the same way she treated the animals scared of the Sonic Rainboom towards the beginning, and possibly at this point becoming something more akin to prized pupil/mentor relationship. Thus the betrayal was more of a slap towards Fluttershy's work than personal. Hope that makes sense. At least, that's how it feels to me.
Other than that, though, love the essays. Really gets the mind going.
Flutterdashcordceps OT4? There's a new one...
(And now I can't help but think of Cordyceps fungus. As if changelings weren't bad enough...)
Seriously, though, a most intriguing analysis of Fluttershy and Dash's relationship and the complications thereof. I can't help but think Discord knows he's being manipulated, if not by Fluttershy, then by Celestia through her. It makes me wonder how he feels about that, and especially how he compared it to Tirek's honeyed words...
I can mostly agree with this.
I will point out that, while I don't really see much romantic there on Fluttershy's side, I think that the one of her friends who most easily buys into Fluttershy's manipulation-- the one who most frequently supports and stands up for her-- isn't Dash, but Applejack: it's AJ who carried Fluttershy up the mountain in Dragonshy, Fluttershy is the one who (along with Twilight) convinces AJ to come home in The Last Roundup, AJ is the one who stops to ask Fluttershy what she wants to do in Magic Duel, Fluttershy can make AJ apologize to beavers in Keep Calm, and AJ is the one whose shoulder Fluttershy is crying on when they're betrayed by Discord in Twilight's Kingdom.
Once could argue Bats! as a counter, but
then you'd have to admit it existsin a way that fits in: It took a percieved threat to Ponyville and a direct threat to Sweet Apple Acres, arguably two of the most important things in AJ's life, for her to refuse to be persuaded/manipulated by Fluttershy.Of course, AJ is frequently the most emotionally responsive to her friends, she has a very maternal side to her. Add to that that AJ doesn't use emotional manipulation, so she's not going to think to look for it in others, and it's not surprising that her weakness would be... well... "weakness."
This is possibly true. It is also possibly true that they would have been perfectly happy together, pretty much until one of them died, being passive-aggressive and immature. I've seen far stranger relationships work out well, in the sense that the couple stayed married and mostly enjoyed each other's company.
If they were normal mares, that is, rather than meta-Ponies with a responsibility to the whole Realm. Ironically, what seems likeliest to spoil their love is the fact that Fluttershy found herself living Rainbow's fantasy, too.
IMO they "started down that path" when they were too young to even see their attraction as romantic, and they were walking and flying happily along it, at a rate set by Fluttershy and adhered to without question by Rainbow Dash, for about a year or two before Luna's Return.
When Rainbow came back from her adventures with Gilda, she didn't know why Fluttershy seemed so lonely and sad and scared of the world, and it never occurred to her to ask beyond "Are you feeling sick or something?" because Rainbow doesn't do mushy stuff. And Rainbow was the last pony Fluttershy wanted to talk to about what happened to her while Rainbow was gone -- something which she wasn't even comfortable talking about with Rarity.
Anyway, Fluttershy had always been scared of the world -- she was just acting now -- at 18-19 -- exaxctly as she had as a young filly, and it didn't occur to Rainbow that there was anything weird about that either. She just fell into the old pattern of being Fluttershy's rescuer and protector. And so things would have probably gone merrily along, until some stray impulse moved Fluttershy to take things to a more sexual level -- if the timer hadn't run down on Luna's Exile.
And if both Fluttershy and Rainbow hadn't been the mortal Aspects of Cosmic Concepts. Things neither of them ever asked to be, but which Rainbow would have thought was really cool anyway.
What's more, Rainbow had just -- probably without ever realizing it -- been in almost the exact same relationship with Gilda on the other side of things. Gilda's love for Rainbow was almost certainly sexual, and as almost certainly was very protective, to the point where Gilda found it very difficult to actually make a move on her. Gilda may actually have understood what she was feeling for Rainbow better than Rainbow does understand what she feels for Fluttershy -- but Gilda is even less socially-adept than is Rainbow Dash.
The difference is that Rainbow wasn't a subtle manipulator like Fluttershy (who gets it from both sides of her genetic heritage) -- she really was oblivious to how Gilda felt. Even though she was probably responding to it, subconsciously, because Rainbow is bisexual. Rainbow just didn't even get that this was a romantic relationship she was in, and absent that understanding she wasn't about to start getting mushy. Especially not with Gilda, whom she (wrongly) assumed would hate it.
One of the ironies of "Griffon the Brush-Off," as I see it, is that Gilda was being jealous of the wrong pony. She even ran into (and frightened) Fluttershy -- she just never noticed the connection with Rainbow Dash. She probably thought of Fluttershy as "that lame old friend of Rainbow's from Flight School," and didn't grasp that Fluttershy was at all threatening. Which is also funny, because Gilda's physical menace would be but a chip in the maelstrom of Fluttershy's mental powers.
Fluttershy really would have made a very good Infiltrator.
The reason why I see Flutterdash as the only lesbian canon ship (tease) is that it's the only one that gets supported by a display of emotions more intense than mutual sweet kindness.
Yes, there's a lot of positive affect from Applejack toward Fluttershy in "Dragonshy." But consider the character, and the context.
Applejack is not at all embarrassed to display strong loving warmth toward her friends. In canon she is perhaps the most likely to initiate affectionate physical contact with or say something really nice to any of the other of the Mane Six. And Fluttershy was suffering intense emotional distress at the time -- she really needed love. Applejack's behavior there could best be described as big-sisterly or maternal.
Applejack may possibly be asexual, demisexual (only receptive to very few potential mates, whom she hasn't yet met) or simply convinced that she shouldn't seek out love until she has reached such an certain age or level of success as to (in her own mind) permit marriage, and so strongly honorable that she doesn't want to risk sexual involvement before she's ready to marry. She may be a lesbian strongly attracted to all of her friends. Or, she may be hoping for the return of a lost lover to whom she's pledged.
There's not enough information to figure this out, but she's the only member of the Mane Six who hasn't been strongly Ship Teased with anypony. Unless she's been Ship Teased with all five of her best friends. Which is possible, but unlikely.
I could see her falling for Fluttershy if Applejack is bisexual (she's shown
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Yes, sorry. And Chrysalis even in canon is close to a Complete Monster. And my version of Chrysalis is even nastier -- though I don't have her do anything that she's been shown to be strongly opposed to doing, or even than she does in The Return of Chrysalis -- I just describe it in detail, and from the point of view of someling who loves the victim (in Collateral Damage).
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I think it's quite possible that Fluttershy is polyamorous. Though she'd be restrained by fear of emotionally-harming her lovers. Fluttershy's morals are unconventional, but she's quite serious about the ones that she has.
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Discord knows for sure that he's being manipulated. The problem is, he's addicted to Fluttershy's friendship now. And he may have realized that complete, anarchic freedom is incompatible with having any real friends, since if one has a real friend one is always constrained by fear of harming her.
This is quite above and beyond whether or not there is a romantic or sexual component to his feelings for Fluttershy. The point is that he cares for her now, and he can't just shut off that caring the moment it becomes inconvenient to his plans. He thought he could when he got into it, but can't.
Ironically -- in light of what Kind he created by Twisting them -- he's become Love-Locked. Somewhere, Rosedust's ghost is laughing at him.
Another important point -- Tirek betrayed him. And in doing so, showed him the flaw with seeking out a friend ruthless enough to be comfortable with his evil side. Anyone that ruthless would also be comfortable with harming Discord himself.
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Oh yes, Fluttershy can manipulate Applejack very easily. Does Applejack notice she's being manipulated? Maybe, but she may not care. Applejack is very comfortable playing a maternal role even to a pony who isn't much younger than herself. It's Applejack's nature -- it's even a point of pride to her ("loyalest and most dependable of Ponies") that, if she likes you, she'll go far out of her way to help you if she thinks you need it.
And notuce who got her way in the end. After all was said and done, Fluttershy's plan for a bat sanctuary was put into effect. This was after everypony else, including
Local Feudal Lordpretty pretty Princess Twilight Sparkle, had taken Applejack's side of the matter.Let me emphasize this. Fluttershy got her way despite the opposition of a crowned Alicorn Princess with implied protective authority over the demesne involved, who was the best friend of the tough-as-nails, stubborn mare who is heir presumptive to the actual ownership of the property and who had specifically requested said Alicorn to drive off the bats.
Now, both Twilight and Applejack are a lot of things, but neither of them would be aptly described as "submissive." And each of them had strong legal and moral authority to decide what to do.
And Fluttershy still got her way.
Heck, in the end Fluttershy got her way with Discord.
Is there any episode in which Fluttershy doesn't get her way in the end? Especially if she's dealing with somepony who actually cares about her, even as a friend?
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There is precisely as much romance on Fluttershy's side as she wants there to be at the time. And Rainbow Dash is completely cool with this. What does this imply about which one of them is dominant?
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The only one I can think of is A Bird in the Hoof-- I think that Princess Celestia might be the only pony in Equestria who really has Fluttershy's number; it's no wonder that she knew exactly what to do with Discord. (That being said, it wasn't so much not getting her way as it was being admonished for getting her way without bothering to confer with other ponies-- Twilight was willing to take the fall for Fluttershy if Fluttershy had wanted.)
That being said, it's one of the reasons I dislike Fluttershy most in canon-- her manipulation is never called out or punished. She's constantly the "victim" even when she's clearly the one in control of the situation, and when I see that I feel like the show writers are trying to manipulate me (and the rest of the audience). It irks me, and I find it hard to empathize with Fluttershy except when the show and I are on the same page about what she's doing (like in Keep Calm.)
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That's because Princess Celestia is an even more masterful and subtle manipulator than is Fluttershy. Then again, she has had over 2500 years in this incarnation (by my count, anyway) to perfect her techniques. Fluttershy isn't even 25 yet. Give her time to practice.
Fluttershy might also have trouble manipulating Luna, because Luna has built up a lot of resistance to such manipulative tactics. For the obvious reason. Though Luna often gives in to Celestia's manipulation, on the theory of "Why fight it?"
Cadance is a much more direct sort of Pony, though she is also a master psychologist, so she wouldn't be as easy to fool on this as are most Ponies. We've never seen Fluttershy try to manipulate Cadance.
Ah, but see, I love Fluttershy. Because her manipulation works on me too, of course! How else do you think I wrote those scenes in Fluttershy Is Free where Rainbow Dash is utterly mesmerized with (mostly) pure love for her Romantic Friend?
Seriously, I would hate Fluttershy instead of loving her if she wasn't obviously a very benevolent Pony who really does try to avoid hurting other Ponies, and successfully resists the temptation of having the most potentially-corrupting psychic power of all, Mind Control. If I come off as negative toward her, it's because I'm aware of what she does -- maybe more aware than is Fluttershy herself (she's kind of innocent in a lot of ways) -- and that it's a social strategy.
But then I love Rarity, and she is a far more consciously skilled (though not as effective) social manipulator than is Fluttershy. Rarity is not at all innocent about what she does -- but she's loveable anyway because she's a genuinely good Pony who cares what happens to others.
And I love Pinkie Pie -- who is quite innocent in most senses of the word, compared to either Fluttershy or Rarity -- but is also a manipulator, and a frighteningly-effective one when she really wants something, because she follows senses and logics and employs powers utterly alien to normal Ponykind.
The Mane Six tend to follow a rule of "three and three" with regard to any binary attribute. Three of them are Manipulators -- Fluttershy, Rarity and Pinkie -- and three of them are Direct -- Twilight, Applejack and Rainbow Dash.
(Twilight, btw, could be a Manipulator if she wanted to be, because her great intelligence lets her think circles around most Ponies and her relatively upper-class upbringing makes it very easy for her to generate respect from other Ponies. She just scorns Manipulation in favor of directly logical approaches. This may be one of her weaknesses).
I think the writers may be well aware of Fluttershy's manipulative nature. It's shown too often on-screen to be entirely-accidental, and the concept of a "passive-aggressive personality" is well-known.
Indeed. Fluttershy doesn't do what she doesn't want to do, unless she is certain there is a good reason to do it. She agreed to the jousting match because the entire Crystal Empire, and subsequently all of Equestria, was at stake. That's also why in Trade Ya she kept telling herself it was worth it. Ultimately she got lucky and didn't have to do anything, but she would have done it, because she felt that she owed Rainbow Dash, possibly for all of her recent support, like in Hurricane Fluttershy for instance (not that recent but I can't think off the top of my head now.) I think if she had refused to help RD, it would have just ended there immediately.
I think that's also why, in Filli Vanilli, Pinkie got so aggressive. She knew that Fluttershy could be stubborn but would accept the obvious once she realized it was something worth going after with little consequence for failure. Then again, I may be one of the few people who didn't get super pissed off at Pinkie Pie for doing that. Also, of the ponies who ate the MMMM, Fluttershy was one of them. And to top it all off, I think this stuff is why Fluttershy overreacted at the Gala. She wasn't used to being thwarted, especially when it came to animals. I'd be surprised if Discord as a Statue didn't hear her screaming when the whole thing finally fell apart entirely.
Exactly. They give each other obvious emotional benefits. If Rainbow Dash didn't like her and see Fluttershy as worth befriending and supporting, then she wouldn't have ever done it or stuck with Flutters all this time. Fluttershy rarely asks for anything, so that's why Rainbow Dash brought up the butterfly migration. She honestly thought that would work to coax Flutters, but she didn't estimate how strongly her friend still felt about dragons. Fluttershy refused and that was that. When RD didn't listen, she got violent, and then she ran away for good measure, because she knew they weren't going to drag her back after such a shocking reaction. Classic tactic of fight or flight, as well as passive-aggressiveness IMHO.
I accept that head canon, but I think it's also possible RD is asexual.
I agree with you for the most part here, but it's also possible the simple fear of bullying kept Fluttershy at bay. I didn't have sex until college, but I strongly avoided the vast majority of my class-mates and didn't have any real friends growing up. This was partly because I was a completely selfish jerk who didn't know much about friendship, but I was also terrified of being judged. Same thing when it came to online, to some extent. I've gotten over both situations to a strong degree by now, don't get me wrong, but that is how I was as a kid. To that end, I could see Fluttershy have Rainbow Dash and maybe a few acquaintances in childhood, but most of what she did was avoid the other kids out of fear of being laughed at. Her issues in Hurricane Fluttershy and Filli Vanilli is what leads me to believe in that. I would also wager that the animals she cares for don't usually judge her, based on Hurricane Fluttershy, which is why she freaked out at the Gala when they ran away from her. They had found her wanting and she couldn't handle it.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, she's one of the few who doesn't do anything during Trixie's act in Boast Busters and she was in general very retiring until the rest of her new friends helped her come out of her shell more. She hated being a model in part because she hated being judged and the only reason she kept doing it (and willingly accepted Rarity's urging), was because they loved her from the beginning. If the world of fashion had rejected her almost immediately, she might have been relieved but she would have been kind of upset too. I'm pretty sure that's why Rarity, without understanding why it was happening, tried to save Fluttershy, who's bizarreness came from Twilight trying to help her get booed off the stage. After that, Fluttershy was too fed up with the other issues, gave up caring what they thought since she hated having crowds idolize her more, and realized that she would have to take things into her own hooves. Then she found out Rarity's feelings and she gladly told Photo Finish to shove it. But maybe I'm speculating too hard there.
My overall point being that sex didn't have to get involved, although I agree about your recipe for disaster there. I realize you're discussing a ship, so that's much more relevant, but I felt like saying that anyway.
Indeed. I agree with that overall. He's not even a pony so it's possible he doesn't have a more humanoid comparison for sex drive. He also might be asexual for all that we know, but even if he isn't, hell, he creates whatever he wants. It goes beyond even just coaxing another creature when you can masturbate rather directly amongst your fantasies. When he starts to desire returned feelings is the point where he has to go looking for a living thing that doesn't answer to his whims, but it's silly to suggest that nothing and no one would ever find him attractive. Fluttershy is a likely stepping point due to friendship, but once he has made one friend, he can try making more. While I love Fluttercord, I find it irritating when people assume he'd date her because she's the only one who would ever want him or befriend him. Same for Celestia and any other pony or creature. It's about someone who can put up with his antics and find some joy in his company, as it would be with any character. It works best if the other character is strong-willed enough to call him on his less than friendly actions, because otherwise he would probably walk all over them. He's learning how the give and take thing works, but he's just as selfish as anyone else.
I think it's more that Rainbow Dash knows she can't reign him in. She's tried calling him out before and it always backfired because she's too direct. Discord responds to passive-aggressive tactics because he's also passive-aggressive and manipulation is the smarter way to appeal to him. This is also why Pinkie Pie's attempts to shout him down never worked. Fluttershy knew that showing him how to play the friendship game was the smarter way to do it, and he respects her immensely for her cunning and her tactics. That's why he said "Well played" in Keep Calm.
Mind you, this also means he's much more easily seduced by manipulation, because he knows he's very good at it. That makes it easier for him to either assume he'll always come out on top, so he overlooks the obvious, or he presumes others think the way he does, and fails to recognize that he isn't impervious by way of being blind-sided. It's why I think the situation with Tirek worked, even though they rushed it a lot.
In general, Fluttershy is trying to integrate Discord into society and his failure to win against society through Tirek proved that he has to play nice if he wants to keep the friendship thing going. Mind you, I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually got tired of the friendship game and decided to ignore it, but by the point that he does, I feel it might be another thousands years. Then again, my head canon follows as such: Discord is capricious and immortal. Therefore, he might get bored sooner rather than later. However, he loves new things and figuring out how they work and if he can alter them to please him or just for the sake of altering them. Friendship is something new and entertaining, so as long as it stays that way and Discord actively enjoys playing by the rules of the game, then he'll stick with it. The bigger danger is what happens when he gets bored, but if Fluttershy does her job right, then he'll learn about sympathy and empathy for others through friendship and be less destructive to pony society overall. Discord is the only one who can keep himself in check and both Fluttershy and Celestia probably know that.
I mostly agree with the first paragraph (then again, I always pick bisexual and I have hetero leanings myself), although I'm not sure what the references are. Then again, I never paid attention how how she deals with stallions in general (but the comics do show her feeling attracted to some.)
I personally like the idea of her and Bulk Biceps, but I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I agree that she could probably dominate him and that's why I like the idea, but I don't know about the flirting. What are you basing that on? I think she can and does flirt, I'm just curious as to what you're citing with regards to that. Is it the comics, Rainbow Falls, or something else I'm forgetting about?
As for Bulk, I think he's probably relatively willful, he was in Wonderbolts Academy and got in the Equestria relay team, but I do think he's intimidated by strong ponies. My personal opinion is that he says dumb stuff when he gets over-excited, so when he's trying to make a good impression, he keeps his mouth shut. He seems somewhat respectful and seeking respect in his various appearances, so I don't think Flutters could completely control him, but I do believe she's the more masterful one at that and she certainly has nothing to fear from him, in part due to her own qualities and skills and because he's a decent stallion.
I could totally go for Fluttershy having a herd of Discord, Rainbow Dash, and Bulk Biceps. But in general, I like any of those. Well, I'm most strongly leaning towards Fluttershy/Discord though. I'm honestly not sure they would get married (that depends on Discord, who does his best to ignore pony society when it inconveniences him, and may be under her hoof, but isn't easy to control either. I don't think it'd come to an ultimatum, if she managed to convince him how important this was to her, but she also respects his general refusal to conform and be tied down by anything.) Actually, I think the reason I like them is because I just want to see them be passive-aggressive back and forth. I just don't think their relationship, friendship or otherwise, would ever get entirely boring. Though that can be said for most relationships Discord would be in. Even once he becomes a better friend, he'll always be willful, witty, annoying, and unconventional.
Oh Celestia, don't get me started on that. I agree with you for reasons.
I'd say that theory works for Pinkie too, potentially. I think the key thing is that Fluttershy would have to be one of the linchpins though or she wouldn't be happy, for the reasons you pointed out. I think she'd certainly rule over her lovers quite tenderly and set them free if they were no longer content. This is actually one of the stumbling blocks I see in Fluttercord though. She has to be certain that Discord is understanding and mature enough to handle a break-down of the relationship, should that happen. This is actually part of why I really think he needs more friends, if nothing else. He needs other companions to vent with and linger on and I am pretty certain that Fluttershy accidentally set Three's a Crowd into motion, but with good intentions (and of course she got what she wanted anyway, the Breezie observation, hence why she wasn't too mad at the end. Though I'm sure she had a long talk with him about what he did, when they were alone. Same for the Finale, though she recognized what he'd learned from it; abandoning her was a bad idea. He can't have his cake and eat it too, like he thought he could with Tirek.)
Phew! Sorry I rambled a lot. Just that this one I had a lot to say.
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I think the difference is that he knows his compliance is worth far more to Celestia and Equestria in the long run. They have to live with him or imprison him again, and he doesn't really want imprisonment. Tirek's offer only worked because Discord thought he was getting both friendship and complete freedom, which Fluttershy originally showed him to be impossible. It was a case of having something too good to be true, of course. On the other hand, he knows Fluttershy's true weaknesses and those of her friends, as well as Celestia's. Discord has every reason to keep playing the friendship game and I don't think he actually minds manipulation. He didn't like Tirek's betrayal. Fluttershy would never betray Discord though, so she's safe to be manipulated by. He'll put his foot down if he thinks she's gone too far and she'll do the same, but usually it ends up with him going too far.
I don't think Discord really cares if Celestia manipulates him this way either, because when it comes down to it, all of pony society is manipulating him through Fluttershy. The key is to make him appreciate this and accept more of it for the rewards that it brings. He needs to be encouraged to keep playing, because when he gives up, they have no other choice but to fight him, and that's the game that no one wins.
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See, I love Rarity because she's not as good at manipulating, because the show sees it for what it is more often, and because it's shown to be a tool she can use for good or, well, not evil, but not-good (as in Suite and Elite or Rarity Takes Manehattan.)
And I do think that Fluttershy uses it for at least selfish reasons, sometimes, but the show never calls it that. Filli Vanilli really ticked me off, because the whole situation was a mess Fluttershy made via her obvious manipulations, then I (and all her friends) were supposed to feel sorry for her when it fell apart. From my point of view, getting found out served her right.
(Though, to be fair, a little backstory: I have a sister very close to my age. She's a master manipulator, and has always known how to push my buttons. I'm a very direct person, and as kids I often got in trouble because she would try to manipulate me, and I would respond directly and couldn't really show I had been manipulated. So, manipulative characters are rarely my favorites.)
I don't know if Twilight could. Not on the level of Celestia or Fluttershy, at least not yet. Twilight can think circles around ponies, but she's not subtle enough to pull off the manipulation except with more oblivious characters (foals or Blueblood-type noble ponies, for example, and probably Rainbow Dash.) Ponies like AJ and Rarity, and especially Fluttershy or Pinkie, could see right through her. I think that Twilight is smart enough to know her limits there, and that's as much of the reason for her not trying it as scorn. So, it is one of her weaknesses, but I think it's one she's aware of.
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Which fits both "Dragonshy" and my Dragonshyness story based directly off it. Fluttershy fully gets why it would be very, very bad for both Ponies and animals if the area around the mountain became a Dragon Desolation. She actually wants to help her friends, she's just overwhelmed by her own fears. And the reason she faces down the Dragon in the end is because she's angry at anyone who threatens to harm her friends.
She values her friends a lot, which is one reason I find her loveable. She is by no means a perfect friend, but usually she'll go out of her way to help her friends -- especially Rainbow Dash and Rarity. This is shown plenty of times in canon -- she makes extra efforts more than once for Rainbow Dash, including being willing to compete in the Equestria Games (which can't be the easiest thing for her given her shyness and lack of faith in her own flying abilities) and also for Rarity (for instance, in "Green Isn't Your Color" and "Castle-Mania").
The main reason why my Fluttershy has some sexual attraction toward Rainbow but none toward Rarity is that she can directly sense their positive affect, so she knows that it's welcomed by Rainbow but would merely embarrass Rarity -- because my Rainbow is bisexual but my Rarity is strongly and exclusively heterosexual. She knows that both of them love her -- but only Rainbow does so romantically. When you can directly sense emotions like that, it avoids a lot of misunderstandings.
Then why was she vulnerable to Nosey? Because she had to learn to read her own empathic senses -- and she was really lonely and engaging in wishful thinking. At that point in her life (age 16, four years before Luna's Return), she didn't realize that the patterns she was picking up were pure lust, with no love or friendship involved at all. She wouldn't be even slightly vulnerable to that sort of approach today -- both because she has friends to keep her from getting anywhere near as lonely as she was back then, and because she can read other Ponies much better now.
My first reaction was "Pinkie, why are you being so mean to her?" and I tried to think up reasons (one possibility being rivalry over Big Mac), but I've come to the conclusion that Pinkie was actually trying to help Fluttershy. Pinkie's actions in fact resulted in Fluttershy learning good things about her own capabilities and mostly having a really good time -- and really, at the end Fluttershy was freaking out very irrationally, as everypony loved her performance.
Thinking about it now, my Pinkie can see probable worldlines, so she would have been well aware that an improvement in Fluttershy's self-confidence would help Fluttershy in the future. That's almost obvious to simple non-precognitive reasoning, really. And Pinkie would have manipulated events so that nothing too terrible would have happened -- the worst thing really that happened to anypony was Big Mac losing the contest and his voice for a few days.
There's actually a scene in the broadcast episode itself which implies that Pinkie knows full well what she's doing. In the flashback to the contest, you can see Pinkie rising up out of the background with a "Heh-heh-heh" scheming sort of look on her face. That scene wouldn't have made much sense unless the reason why Pinkie did this was to manipulate Rarity into asking Fluttershy to sub for Big Mac.
It's improbable that Pinkie did this just to hurt Big Mac, because Pinkie in canon likes Big Mac. (They became definite friends during the events of "Apple Pie"). And in any case, Pinkie isn't about giving other Ponies pain, she's about bringing them joy.
That's a very good point. It's interesting that Fluttershy was the only one of them, aside from Rarity, who became angry -- and Rarity's anger was directed solely at the individual who had directly provoked her, Blueblood. And it was actually Fluttershy who caused most of the damage.
Celestia found that all hilarious, but Celestia gets bored sometimes. And Fluttershy is, of course, one of her "potatoes".
Well, as Wise Dreamer described them in the last chapter of An Extended Performance. To quote the passage:
Doesn't mean Celestia can't try!
Though that particular potato got some unexpected hybridization, courtesy of Hive Chrysalis.
I never thought about that, but that might have been the moment at which the first seeds of Discord's liking toward her were planted.
And Fluttershy's violence at that point -- normally OOC for her -- may also have been frustration at the failure of her normal ability to control Rainbow Dash by manipulation. It's not as if Twilight was going to drag her along anyway -- they actually wouldn't have taken her up the mountain in "Dragonshy" if she'd firmly said "no" at the beginning, and in "Dragonquest" this was something purely personal, not orders from Celestia.
Or "demisexual" (sex not too important to her, only arousable by a limited number of potential mates). The reason I don't think Rainbow Dash is completely asexual is that she's in canon appeared to be (mildly) sexually aroused -- and the reason I think she's bisexual is that she's been shown as aroused by three characters -- two of them mares (Fluttershy, Applejack), one a stallion (Soarin'). The reason I don't think she's promiscuous is that she seems pretty naive about the whole thing -- she reacts like a junior high school girl, not like a sexually-experienced female, and she is not at all in touch with her romantic emotions. Hence my Rainbow Dash is a virgin (at least as of Luna's Return).
Bullying is definitely part of it, but Fluttershy is at the start of the series a full-grown adult mare, and Ponyville is hardly the South Bronx. It's fairly obvious that at the start of the series she has just two good friends -- Rainbow Dash and Rarity -- and that she sometimes is around Applejack as Rainbow's friend and Pinkie Pie because, well, Pinkie Pie makes it her life to know everypony. She acts terrified of Twilight Sparkle, who does absolutely nothing threatening to her.
There's also the point that she is beautiful, obviously likes displaying affection, and that later in the series she shows attraction to male characters -- but through most of the series she does not show any such attraction at all. This speaks to me of fear, and specifically fear of stallions. This is why when I read Fluttershy's Night Out the meme gripped me irresistibly that some stallion had treated her cruelly in the past, most probably by seducing and abandoning her. It just made such perfect and terrible sense, both logically and dramatically.
Oh, she is very shy and retiring. And always was so. But I think that sex was involved because it explains so much about her and her situation -- and also why she starts to open up toward romance later in the series. She recovers over time from her emotional damage, and specifically does so with the help of Rainbow and Rarity, both of whom have a high opinion of her.
There are three sapient characters she's displayed romantic, sexual or physically-very-affectionate behavior towards in the show. These are Rainbow Dash, Discord and Bulk Biceps. In the case of Rainbow Dash, almost any episode where they hang together is a shipper's delight: Fluttershy normally opens up a lot toward Rainbow and is normally happy to be physically close to her (notably, she's more distant with Rarity even though it's obvious that Rarity is her second best friend).
Fluttershy has been seen on-screen caressing Discord, and both Fluttershy's reaction to his betrayal and Discord's regret over having betrayed her look a lot more intense than the breaking of a normal friendship. In general, they act toward one another as if they are at least very good friends, a relationship that starts with regular correspondence and seems to increase in intensity after she tends him when he's ill.
As for Bulk, they flirt together in "Rainbow Falls" and in "Equestria Games" she is comfortable being in a rather physically-immodest position with him in public and in front of everypony she knows well (this is, remember, Fluttershy we're talking about here). Here the degree of implied intimacy is such that it's not unreasonable to assume that they are either lovers in the full sense of the word, or at least that Fluttershy is seriously considering their becoming such. It is relevant to the Flutterarc that this happens in Season 4, or Summer to Fall 1504, over four years after Luna's Return by my chronology.
All this implies that Fluttershy is bisexual, that she feels more comfortable around females than around males but is more strongly attracted to males, and that she starts a healing process from some severe emtional injury, in which she first opens herself toward the possibility of love from Rainbow Dash (the LUG or "Lesbian Until Goddesshood" phenomenon) and then becomes romantically-interested in first her assigned friendship project (Discord) and then a stallion she encounters who is definitely male but whose personality renders him "safe" (Bulk Biceps).
When she is sitting on the barbell on the train, her position gives Bulk a perfect view of her rump and her a perfect view of his crotch, in the middle of strenous physical exercise and emotional excitement (owing to the incipent Games) very likely to result in mutual physical reactions. Look at Fluttershy's expression. It's basically "Hee hee, look at me, aren't I naughty? Like what you see?"
She knows exactly what she's doing, and it's a form of manipulation she almost certainly learned from Rarity (though Rarity is a lot more subtle in that regard). But then one doesn't have to be subtle when one is dealing with somepony who one knows is already attracted to oneself. (And of course my Fluttershy can directly sense the combination of lust, love and friendliness steaming off him, and feed on it, as well).
That scene can be read as anything from Fluttershy trying (and succeeding!) in seducing Bulk, to Fluttershy having already done so a while back and intentionally-reminding Bulk of some of the more fundamental reasons he likes her. I can't believe that her behavior is totally innocent in this regard -- though I don't think that Fluttershy's emotions toward Bulk are exactly cold and calculating, either, I think she's more just happy that finally, at last, she really does have her own stallion. So happy about it that she wants to show it off.
Fluttershy has a distinct tendency when she is really happy to forget about her audience -- indeed, to forget her shyness entirely. You see this explicitly in "Filli Vanilli," and I think you see it subtly in "Equestria Games." Anyway, here the audience in question was mostly her good friends, though there were other Ponies in that train car as well.
By the way, I don't think that Bulk is exactly weak-willed either, it's just that Fluttershy knows how to manipulate him and Fluttershy is very strong-willed herself. Plus, he at the very least likes her a lot, he may love her, and that makes manipulating him very easy. Which, again, doesn't make Fluttershy an evil vamp -- I see no reason to believe that she has any bad intentions toward him. I think she treats him very nicely, in fact, which is part of why he really likes her.
He also, I think, respected the fact that she showed the second greatest degree of resistance to his Chaotic powers in The Return of the Elements of Harmony. It's significant that the two who resisted him most successfully -- Twilight and Fluttershy -- are the two whom he seems most interested in befriending after he's paroled.
Exactly. He wants what he can't create or coerce -- genuine love and friendship. He'd given up on both for a long time (in my universe, when he realized that he wasn't really going to get Celestia to be his friend again no matter how much he played with her by throwing monsters and other problems at her and her sister), and he's really happy that Fluttershy genuinely likes him. I follow AlaraJRogers' idea in this that what Fluttershy specifically likes about Discord is his power of creativity, which means that she loves him for the best in his nature.
Indeed, he's doing so. As of the end of Season Four, he clearly regards Twilight as his friend too -- and he made a specifically-conciliatory gesture toward Celestia as well. It's possible that he hopes to make friends with the Alicorns (renewing an old friendship in the case of Celestia and Luna) and as many of Twilight's other friends who will give him the chance. I think he has finally decided that he wants to belong. (And the Alicorns and Mane Six are about the only beings who he can count on not to run screaming from him).
Well, more selfish than most. At least for now.
My opinion of Fluttershy's morals are that they are "non-standard."
When I say that she is probably the most potentially-promiscuous of the Mane Six, I'm not implying that she's promiscuous by most normal standards. The Mane Six have exceptionally high sexual morals, based on the evidence I've seen in the show -- they are mostly romantic idealists where love is concerned. Even the most bitter and cynical one of them -- Rarity -- seems to be hoping for a fairy-tale happy result of her love life. And Fluttershy is emotionally-damaged, not bitter and cynical.
She is, however, willing to experiment to a degree that I don't think that the others are. She's not prudish at all -- she's shy, which can look similar from the outside but is based on rather different motivations and has different consequences regarding personal choices. And she's also the one most likely to be polyamorous.-- capable of seriously loving and being in a romantic relationship with more than one partner at a time.
The first comes from her alienation from her own birth-culture. The second comes from her strong sex drive coupled with her fear of criticism. And the third comes from a combination of her great capability for love coupled (in my verse) with her Changeling heritage -- she has some of the instincts of a eusocial Queen expecting to be mother to the enjtire nobility of a Hive. (Why a Queen? Because she's of the Royal caste, she was raised with no other lings around and she has never submitted to any other Queen).
This is not to say that Fluttershy doesn't have sexual morals or a strong sense of honor. Her early upbringing was that of a member of a high Pegasus noble clan, and her governing assumption from that upbringing is that lack of sexual self-control is a mark of weakness and source of dishonor. The Pegasus noble version of this includes the notion that being cast-off is especially dishonorable because it shows one's own inferiority, which is part of why her encounter with Nosey devastated her so badly. It's not so much that Nosey took her virginity, it's that he then rejected her that made her think herself worthless and seriously consider suicide.
Being loved by three entities, one of them a fearsome Chaos God, one of them an athletic mare warrior of great fame and near-perfect in her own honor and reputation, and another a physically-strong and emotionally-caring stallion, would not be at all dishonorable by this standard. Indeed, if she could keep the love of all of them, she would be demonstrating her superiority and hence her own exceptional honor. This doesn't exactly make sense in Unicorn or Earth Pony terms -- it would probably rather shock Twilight or Applejack -- but it does in Pegasus terms. Especially in traditional Pegasus terms.
For all her unconventionality, Fluttershy takes traditional Pegasus terms very seriously. She just rejects some of the traditional Pegasus conclusions -- in particular, that honor requires harshness toward others. She's quite capable of being harsh on herself, however. Sometimes too harsh.
For "marriage" here you may read "long-term mating arrangement which may include the production of offspring." It doesn't have to be whatever ceremony would be normal for Pegasi, or Ponies in general. Heck, Cosmic Concepts don't even get married, they just sort of pal around with each other based on compatibility, and the culture in which Discord's current Aspect was raised -- Paradise Estate -- was a mare herd whose Big Brother herds had long since disappeared.
This also has implications regarding the morals of Celestia and Luna, neither of whom are promiscuous nor sexually-casual, but who treat their lovers rather as if they were Big Brothers who visit for a while and are then separated from them by death until they come back again for another visit due to reincarnation. They too are Cosmic Concepts whose experience in their current Aspects began at Paradise Estate -- though, as Moondreamer, Luna knew a form of marriage al most exactly like our own with Dusk Skyshine, during the Age of Wonders. And Sundreamer considered marrying Dash Firehooves.
I don't see Pinkie Pie as promiscuous, for several reasons. She's in my verse a Daughter of Paradise, which means that she knows the Love of Paradise and hence is not deeply impressed by that of most mortal Ponies. She was raised in a fairly-traditional Earth Pony family, so she sees casual sex as wrong. And she's not yet all that emotionally mature -- she doesn't see herself as ready for romantic or sexual love at the start of the series, even though she's 19. (That changes later on, and I can point to the specific episodes in which it changes, if you're interested).
Why wouldn't she just have sex at random, though, because she might think that by doing so she could spread joy? Because she knows -- in canon because she's observant of inter-Pony interactions, in my verse because both Granny and Paradise would have also warned her about this -- that in doing so she would be spreading not joy, but conflict and heartbreak. Pinkie, if she wanted to be promiscuous, would be at least as potent a weapon of emotional mass desruction as is the Winningverse Cloud Kicker, the more so because Pinkie Pie (unlike Cloud Kicker) is loveable. But unlike Cloud Kicker, Pinkie Pie would feel horrible if she was causing severe emotional harm to others.
I do see her as potentially-polyamorous though. The reason being that she really loves her friends. But I think that this potential is likely to resolve itself into extremely strong love for a particular Pony -- probably Cheese Sandwich. There is literally no other stallion in the world who can understand her like Cheese can; most of the mares who understand her even half as well are her sisters and half-sisters; and I can't see how her very strong sympathy with Cheese can fail to override all other considerations. The look that passed between them at the end of "Pinkie Pride" was mutual recognition.
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Rarity also has a definite conscience. It can be overwhelmed by her enthusiasms, whether for love, fame or fortune, but for all her relative bitterness and cynicism, she is operating from a firm foundation of benevolence and decency. There are things she simply will not do just to gain a social advantage.
That's true -- the show tends to call Rarity on her occasional bad behavior, but not Fluttershy on her occasional bad behavior -- because Fluttershy's so cute in a childlike way (while Rarity's beauty is both more sophisticated and -- in canon, less than Fluttershy's).
This isn't actually Fluttershy's fault, but rather a product of how outside observers see Fluttershy versus how they see Rarity. And I think I've been aware of it subconsciously all along, because I've been showing it in my Flutterarc. But I want to thank you for pointing it out to me explicitly.
Look at A Robust Solution The point of that story is that Fluttershy was emotionally crippled by her encounter with Nosey, because she assumes she was rejected by him for her worthlessness. Rarity becomes aware of this and helps Fluttershy see that this was not the case, and that she simply needs to be more careful when falling in love in the future. Fluttershy then assimilates this information by putting it in terms familiar to herself, the game-theoretical interaction of animal mating strategies.
There's an interesting appostion in this story. Not only is it about Rarity (rather unselfishly) going out of her way to help Fluttershy (by explaining something to her that most mares would have learned as fillies), but in the course of Rarity's internal dialogue it becomes apparent that something similar but worse happened to Rarity herself at around the same time!
Fluttershy doesn't know this, because Rarity has (mostly) recovered from her own emotional damage (*), and because Rarity would not change the topic to her own problems when her friend was in real need. But I've noticed that I've gotten a lot of comments about Fluttershy's suffering -- but not much about Rarity's. Though, admittedly, I'm keeping the details secret for a planned prequel to Nightmare Rarity, in which Spike learns some of what happened -- and tries to help, but doesn't have enough maturity himself to know what to say, or be believed. Especially because the Night Shadows are taking a rather more active role in wearing Rarity down than in the comic book series (**)
My Rarity lacks most of my Fluttershy's advantages. Rarity's lower middle classs, and naturally only pretty -- she's formed her "fabulosity" out of hard work, careful grooming, attitude and sheer determination. She has one very useful power -- gem-finding -- and one very useful talent -- fashion design. She combines them with a lot of effort to build her business and her network of social contacts.
She is so successful that being the Element of Generosity is if anything but a distraction to her real work, and she hasn't yet even suspected that she's an Aspect of the Cosmic Concept of Mutual Benefit. She doesn't need to be a goddess -- that's the measure of her extreme awesomeness.
When she is seduced, used and abandoned (in worse condition than Fluttershy), she is sad about it, considers suicide, then basically shrugs it off and steps back on her path upward. She learns from it, but what she learns is to be more careful in the future who she trusts. Basically, the lesson that she teaches Fluttershy later on -- which she had to learn herself, on her own.
My Fluttershy is a Pegasus of the highest birth -- she'd be the High Commander if there was still an independent Pegasus nation. She was raised upper class and chose to abandon her legacy. She is breath-takingly beautiful without even trying to be, she has the most powerful Mind Control known to the verse, and she's an empathic emotivore, which has little downside to her because it means she can sense somepony's true feelings for her and she can easily avoid tapping too much of anypony else's energy, while benefiting from the small amounts she chooses to tap.
What does she do with these advantages? She drops out of normal society and tries to be ignored, even more so after her unfortunate meeting with Nosey, which damages her largely because she lacks elementary social common sense. She succeeds at this so well that she has very few friends and no discernible future beyond Crazy Animal Lady..
What saves her from this? Well, in part her friends, especially Rainbow Dash and Rarity. But in part, it's because she's not just double Royalty (Pegasus and Changeling) but also a mortal Aspect of the Cosmic Concept of Life Itself, which is to say a Goddess.
When the Call makes it personal by having Nightmare Moon literally confront them face to face, take a look at their reactions. Fluttershy cringes in terror. Rarity, on the other hand, faces the mad goddess defiantly. Nightmare Moon has to slap her (with her mane) to get any semblance of submission from her -- and Rarity mostly just flinches from what must have been a mildly painful physical contact. Remind me again, which one of them was raised in a warrior tradition? And which one went to fashion design school?
I love Fluttershy, and she has more power. But when it comes to sheer gumption -- Rarity wins hooves down.
You rock, Rarity.
===
(*) But notice who in semi-canon is the emotionally-weakest of the Mane Six. The one who finally succumbs to the prowling Night Shadows who have been looking to corrupt one of them ever since the Season One opener. Here's a hint: the name of the IDW Comics arc is Nightmare Rarity. Rarity's not recovered as fully as she imagines, and maybe she could have used a friend having a long, earnest conversation with her about it, some time earlier?
(**) I do intend to give Rarity and Spike a scene where they team up to demolish some goons working for a Night Shadow Coven -- Rarity with martial arts, and Spike with -- well, his natural weapons. That should be fun to write. Especially the part where Rarity is going to think Spike is getting the crap beaten out of him, and the door opens to reveal those particular thugs collapsing, having been bitten, clawed and singed. A Shout Out to The Honeymooners, of all things! ("Ya gotta be a pretty tough guy to be a bus driver!")
I think the Stare is more of a Fear effect, not a more complex Mind Control.
And I wonder what its effects would be if it was ever used on another pony. It would not surprise me if even a few seconds were enough to cause crippling PTSD on the victim.
(It being a Fear effect would also explain how Discord was able to NoSell it so easily - he probably does not feel fear the same way normal creatures do.)
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I think its simplest application is Fear. But it can probably induce other effects as well -- Fluttershy just hasn't practiced it enough to use it in the more complex ways, especially at the point of "Dragonshy."
My theory is admittedly informed by my (probably very non-canon assumption) that Fluttershy's Stare is an ability of Changeling Royalty -- the same one that Chrysalis was using on Shining Armor in A Canterlot Wedding. But Fluttershy in-canon later uses it other ways. She can directly fight the Cockatrice's Petrification with it, and she freezes the Vampire Fruit Bats in place.
We don't actually know that it didn't work on Discord in Princess Twilight Sparkle. Discord claimed that it didn't -- but then went and did exactly what Fluttershy wanted anyway. One possibility is that it did work, but that Discord didn't want to let on to Fluttershy that he was actually vulnerable to her power.
I thought something about that earlier today. What if the writers are also being manipulated by Fluttershy? Or is that too post-modern?
(That kind of thing seems to happen more often with Pinkie Pie. On my own story Fluttershy's Garden, it was Pinkie's idea, not mine, to call the party on the last chapter a "last chapter party", and I have no idea why she was wearing "a ridiculous imitation of pegasus wings" -- she just appeared on the scene wearing them. On an older story of mine, she came up with a non-sequitur which left both the character she was talking to and myself speechless.)
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Fluttershy's pattern of behavior was from the standpoint of the writers modeled on an extreme cuteness, sensitivity and apparent helplessness which Humans (and Ponies!) are attracted to and protective toward because it is similar to that of their own children. Fluttershy is a passive variant of a Moe.
This is a survival strategy. The real-life Moe is essentially manipulating the perceptions of the observer -- "I'm so cute that you just want to protect me and would never ever harm me."
This works really well on most Ponies, most of the time -- and it makes the writers favor her also. The Mane Six are all protective toward her, especially Applejack (strong maternal instincts), Rainbow Dash (self-image as protector of damsel in distress), and Rarity (feels big-sisterly toward her incredibly-naive and timid friend). We've also seen the others -- Twilight, Pinkie, and Spike -- behave more protectively toward her than toward any of their friends save those with whom they actually have sibling (Twilight toward Spike) or romantic (Spike toward Rarity) relationships.
Her friends rarely call her on behavior which would annoy them if other Ponies -- even their other friends -- manifested it. "Dragonshy" is something of an exception in that Rainbow Dash gets pissed at her for her cowardice (and note, Rainbow Dash is of all the Mane Six the one most familiar with Fluttershy's Moe-ness) -- even Twilight Sparkle, who is leading them like a military commander and who stands to be humiliated before Celestia if she fails -- merely gets slightly annoyed and saddened. This despite the fact that Fluttershy's behavior nearly gets Twilight killed (if you've been reading Dragonshyness you know the scene -- and remember that Twilight had no notion that Pinkie Pie was acting as her guardian angel there).
The only times her strategy seriously fails is when she tries to employ it on somepony who just doesn't give a damn. In my fanon the obvious example is Nosey -- and, thinking about it, her approach might have worked on him if he'd stuck around an hour or so longer. (If that had happened, btw, the dynamic of who got hurt would have been completely reversed, because Nosey had a whole little herd of reasons back home not to get emotionally involved with anypony he met on the road).
Her approach works on Discord. You know, Chaos God incarnate in immortal flesh, turned on and killed most of the Ponies who raised him, devastated most of the last important survivals from the Age of Wonders, subjected the Earth to a millennium of often-sadistic chaos before he was petrified by two of the only beings on the planet who were both powerful enough and whom he liked enough to let get close enough to him to defeat him?
Shouldn't have looked into those baby blues, Dissy. You were lost the moment you agreed to engage her in a long conversation. Celestia's glad of this, but at times it must bother her that Fluttershy could do what Celestia failed to do, despite the fact that Discord was originally Celestia's best friend.
Seriously, that makes Fluttershy a living Weapon of Mass Cuteness.
But I digress. My point is that, while Fluttershy is a basically decent, good, heroic Pony, she's not actually as nice as she seems. In particular, she's not the most caring, honorable, loving or moral member of the Mane Six. She just doesn't get called on it on the occasions when she does callous, dishonorable, hateful or amoral things. Which really isn't that often, because she is a good Pony -- but happens from time to time.
The other main manipulators are Pinkie Pie and Rarity. Pinkie Pie is active rather than passive, and her mode is Genki Girl. Because Pinkie is adorable in her own way, and her manipulations are usually intended to make other ponies happy, she doesn't usually get called out on it when she does obnoxious things.
Notice what happens when she manipulates Fluttershy, in "Filli Vanilli?" Yep. She gets called out in it by every single one of her close friends.
(Though Pinkie, because she's honestly child-like in many ways, also gets slack cut for her by writers and fans. And she probably deserves it).
Rarity is very openly manipulative. She does this mostly by using her feminine charms to persuade stallions (and males of most species, really) into doing what she wants, and offering mutually-beneficial deals to get other entities of either sex into doing what she wants. She's pretty ethical in both regards -- even when she uses sexual charm, she never actually promises anything more than she's willing to give, which is generally just the pleasure of her company -- and her mutually-beneficial deals really are mutually-beneficial.
She gets called out on this a lot by the fans. A lot of fan fiction represents her as promiscuous. Some fan fiction represents her as cruel. She doesn't actually display either behavior in-show.
But then, she's not as cute as Fluttershy.
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Mind you, I'm not saying that Fluttershy acts this way with malicous, self-conscious purposefulness. It's just the way she is -- the way she's learned to cope with life's challenges. We should be aware of it, though, and the fact that it is at least an evolved survival strategy.
Hmm, interesting analysis, I do like your take on Bulkershy. The Futterdash thing, which ever way you take it, the two almost certainly have been friends for far longer then the others of the Mane-6.
Personally, I think that Bulk Biceps is the way to go, Fluttershy has always been featured in close proximity to him in his most recent cannon appearances. I also think that they are a very good yin-yang pair each inwardly being the other's exterior. Bulk is a kindhearted softy with a good case of Lepidopterophobia. Fluttters is outwardly very timid but hides an incredible reserve of willpower falling short of only the demi-devine in its capacity for complement. With season 5 in the recording right now we'll have to see where this leads.
Personally, I think it's DisQord who has a soft soft spot for Flutters, though she has a tender way with most beings. We will have to see as I think DisQord is going to be getting a bigger role in season 5 in light of the finale of 4. Reference to DisQord redemptions/role as 'work in progress'.
(Still waiting for a 'mon capitain' reference from him too.)
On the Subject of Fluttershy, and S4 as a whole, where the buck are the more pony parents M.A. Larson promised? I mean barring the - officially cannot be said to be deceased - Ma and Pa Apple who cannot/will not be seen in the show Flutter's is the only member of the Mane-6 to not even have parents hinted at (Dash's daddy at least made a flashback cameo). Yet no mention of the Flutterfolks. Seriously hoping for some in S5.
Side note here, I think they were hinting that Bulk and Scoots are related some how with his appearance in Hearts as Strong as Horses.
I find it impossible to take Bulk seriously.
I think this is a case of reading way too far into things. But nonetheless, the commentary on FlutterDash and even Discord was pretty good.
I used to not really like FlutterDash all that much, but reading things like this have made it develop into my second favorite pairing for Fluttershy for many of the reasons outlined here. For one reason or another, I have a hard time seeing FlutterCord happen. Part of it is doubtlessly my apprehension at pairing immortal characters with those who are not. Yes, they are close to each other, but like Thak said, it seems to more strongly imply a sort mentor/pupil relationship more than anything else. And Discord isn't really all that mature or able to relate to most ponies. Yes, it would do good to have Discord make more friends.
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That's a good point -- they are in some ways mirror-images. Fluttershy looks harmless but is one of the most dangerous beings in that universe; Bulk looks fierce but is relatively harmless (he's obviously had some combat training, but has no special abilities aside from being a big strong Pegasus). And Bulk has some major advantages as a mate over either of the other two prospects: he's of her own species and of the opposite sex.
That's of course also the main problem with it. Bulk isn't of even close to the stature of Fluttershy. Of course, that's the main problem that all of the Mane Six (and their peers who are technically not in the Mane Six) face -- the more so in my fanon as they are Celestia's "potatoes," destined for Ascension. They'll have to choose between the very few beings of equivalent power and lifespan who exist, or accept far weaker mortal mates.
They could talk to Celestia and Luna about this. Unfortunately, the elder Alicorns never really found a good solution to this problem either. Isolate oneself, and go slowly inequine and Lone-Mad, or seek love and friendship, and then have one's beloveds and friends repeatedly torn from oneself by death? Luna went mad, and Celestia nearly went mad, contemplating this dilemma.
The problem with Bulk is that he so far seems trivial -- a fling rather than a serious love interest. But then, Bulk may have hidden depths. Bulk is lucky that the show writers are unlikely to resolve the question the way that I might, complete with Dying Moment of Awesome. I'll see if the writers keep him around in Season 5 -- and maybe develop his character further.
Discord definitely cares for Fluttershy -- his reactions in the second part of Princess Twilight's Kingdom makes it obvious. And I think she loves him back -- her reaction to his betrayal was extreme, and had little to do with how much danger it put them in. The way the episode was resolved, it's also very obvious that she's the emotionally-dominant one in that friendship -- or love affair -- or whatever it is.
I think that Fluttershy's been rejected by her own family, or has rejected them herself. I doubt that they're the monsters I make them to be with Windvane and Ill Wind, who are plotting to raise a rebellion against the Realm using the blackest of magic and foulest of machinery, but I could see them as being rather hostile to her.
Though it may just be a Pegasus thing. We don't see Pegasus families much in the show. I doubt that they have no marital customs, I think that they just expect the children to be very self-sufficient, very early in their lives, and then don't see much of them most of the time.
The problem with this theory is that it can't go as far as no family support for or influence directed toward adolescent and adult children. The reason why is cultural evolution. Any families which had tighter structures would outcompete the ones with looser structures, until the customs hit a "sweet spot" of balancing between advantageous influence and necessary independence.
Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy, on the other hand, are very atypical Pegasi. Rainbow Dash in being almost a caricature of Pegasi virtues and flaws, and Fluttershy is -- well -- more like her real sire's people in my fanon. Her real sire's original people, the way they were before one of her best friends had his way with them. Which is to say, something like that planet hasn't seen for around 2000 years. Which has to be lonely sometimes.
I think so too.
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I honestly can't think of any times that Flutters was being dishonourable or amoral.
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I perhaps overstate it. Fluttershy is not by the standards of most Ponies dishonorable or amoral. I am judging her by the standards of the other members of the Mane Six, who are remarkably honorable and moral.
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I was kinda hoping for examples.
Drawing a blank here.
Oh God. She's got to me
2146076 Now I want to know the specific episodes for Pinkie and romance. I'm sorry.
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In sequence:
"Magical Mystery Cure," because she became aware that one of her alternate selves, and the same age as herself, was married to Big Mac (I go with Alex Warlorn's theory on this, which makes sense because she was farming Sweet Apple Acres, with the most obvious reason being that she was now part of the family; the most obvious way for her to become part of that family would be to marry Big Mac).
"Pinkie Apple Pie," because she performed a major Reality Warp (skillfully avoiding Paradox) to make herself distantly related to the Apples, so that she could get closer to them. She then took considerable interest specifically in Big Mac (note that she had a long and deep conversation with him).
"Pinkie Pride," in which she meets Cheese Sandwich, and some sort of mutual attraction ensues.
Note that this is the end of Season Three to Season Four. Before then, she took no canon interest in stallions, and her behavior in general showed only the most childlike approach to attraction to others in general.
2635919 OK then. Thanks!
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Btw, I think her reason for attraction to Big Mac is that he's a lot like her father (strong, honorable and protective). Her reason for attraction to Cheese Sandwich is that he's a lot like herself. She has good taste: she picked two Ponies very unlikely to abuse her.