A Lovely Crusade

MLP_RedRum

MLP_RedRum #1 · Jun 21st, 2020 · 11 · ·

Reply

This is so cute! Warms my soft, gay, polyamorous heart.

BirdsBooksBrownies

BirdsBooksBrownies #2 · Jun 21st, 2020 · 1 · ·

Reply

I'm fairly certain that I am straight as a flagpole, and I freely admit that I sometimes feel kinda weird when the concept of gay people is brought up. That being said, I do NOT dislike it and I have NO problem if others do it, I just don't know if I would be comfortable doing it myself.

Anyways, This was a wonderful story and I firmly believe that this would have been a much better way of handling the issue that came up in the episode where Scootaloo's parents were introduced. Frankly, I was rather disappointed by that episode. Actually, now that I think about it, the ending technically works within the final problem episode where we see the girls working together in the School of Friendship, which might I add, I loved that final episode particularly the song with the memories montage sequence and the closing of the book.

one longboi

one longboi #3 · Jun 21st, 2020 · 4 · ·

Reply

this is exactly the kind of blessed content i needed to read today, thank you <3

applezombi

applezombi #4 · Jun 21st, 2020 · 3 · ·

Reply

Very cute. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

The way Applejack described her own struggles with grief was really poignant and well written. Well done.

Superb Cow

Superb Cow #5 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 6 · 5 ·

Reply

Call me a grumpy old queer, but I was enjoying the maudlin tonne of this story. Now, I am not against polyamory, but it 100% is not for me, and I guess that probably taints the story for me. I flat out checked out when it got to the "wait, we can all?" thing. Maybe it is tainted by my cynicism over the whole "why not both" mentality that comes from a lot of these love-triangle stories, and I am going to admit, while I have known poly-amorous people in the past, I haven't seen a long-term poly relationship that hasn't ended in a fucking dumpster fire.

I dunno, I know this is written for pride and positivity month, but, eh, I dunno. this one really resonated with me up until the poly bit.

Darkstarling

Darkstarling #6 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 6 · 5 ·

Reply

Sweet and adorable, these three definitely should stick together.

10296174
Probably best not to harsh something meant for representation and positivity because of the subject yeah?

Orphan

Orphan #7 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 2 · 4 ·

Reply

10296174
Weirdly, it doesn't feel very queer to me. It feels like The Cutie Mark Crusaders. They shouldn't be separated. Ever. Even by Romance. In an ideal world, they wouldn't need Romance. But if they do get any, poly is the only way I can see it at all?

P.S.
I don't believe poly is queer, if that's not clear.

P.P.S
I really like to rhyme, if only to pass the time.
(And practice a bit, how'd I do?)

Superb Cow

Superb Cow #8 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 7 · ·

Reply

10296617
I think the main reason that polyamory is often associated with with the queer community is that often a polyamorous relationship will tend to involve at least two people who identify as queer. This is different to a polyamorous person. Take the following ponified example:

Big Mac is a polyamorous person, and is in an open relationship with Sugar Belle and Cheerilee. This implies:

Cheerilee <--- Big Mac ----> Sugar Belle

At no point is it implied that Cheerilee and Sugar Belle are romantically attached. This is common amongst what many would call polygamous relationships (technically not true, unless there are two marriages, as -gamy is derived from the greek gamos, for marriage).

Now we will take the same example:

Cheerilee <---------> Sugar Belle
\ /
\ /
Big Mac

This would be a polyamorous relationship, rather than a polyamorous person/pony in an open relationship. This kind of necessitates some level of queerness in the relationship, as in this instance you have Sugar Belle and Cheerilee romantically involved with each other at the same time as with Big Mac, even if Big Mac identifies as straight.

We can also prove the other way.

Cheerilee <---------> Flash Sentry
\ /
\ /
Big Mac

In this instance, Flash Sentry and Big Mac are the "queer" part of this relationship, even if Cheerilee identifies as straight.

This is why polyamory is typically associated with queer communities, added to the fact that they are a marginalized group, which some amongst the queer community say is enough. There is, for example, a debate at my own university's pride space whether furry pride should be included in queer space, because it is an identity (or kink, for some) that is between consenting adults and harms no one, yet furries suffer a lot of hatred.

But something like polyamorous relationships, as can be demonstrated above, kind of involve some level of queer-ness in them, even if say in the above examples, Big Mac and Flash Sentry share a homoromantic non-sexual relationship, still falls under the spectrum.

Superb Cow

Superb Cow #9 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 13 · 1 ·

Reply

Now, I have done some thinking since originally reading this, and my first comment. I realized why I balked at this story. Well, there are multiple reasons, but one of the main reasons is due to being an old fart (literally, I was in my mid 20s before a lot of y'all were even born) I have come to expect tragedy or some kind of "oh well, sucks to be gay" in stories, because it is kind of what was pushed in the media of my generation. Rowan Ellis does an excellent three part essay I rewatched today on the effect of the Hayes code in cinema, and specifically how it fucked over queer representation; she mentions a pretty startling fact that in cinema over the last fifty (iirc) years, stories involving cishet couples end in tragedy (death, unrequited love, etc) in about 13% of movies. Conversely, over 58% of movies involving non-hetero couples end in tragedy.

It made me realize that I kind of romanticize the tragic end for the gay character, cause it was kind of the only story I had growing up in a time where the only movies about gay people were also about the aids crisis (and about making straight people learn a valuable lesson from the dead gay). And this is exactly what I did here, in my first comment regarding how I was "enjoying the maudlin mood" before everything turned to roses. I hate with a passion the 'bury your gays' trope, but thinking back over it, that is kind of the story I have been drawn to so many times, cause it was what I was fed growing up.

There is also the cynicism that comes along with seeing a lot of cishet people writing polyamorous lesbian pairings for titillation of a straight male audience, and I presumed (whether right or wrong) that PingZing was doing the same, mostly due to my own hangups (see above!), as very rarely do we see the same sort of story regarding three males (lets say, Snails, Featherweight and Pipsqueek... because fuck Snips, Snails is too sensitive and nice for that shitty little brat!). This is not to say that this is what PingZing was doing, as I know nothing about them, and it was wrong of me to presume that the writer of this was a cishet male writing lesbian polyamory fanfics for straight male titillation, and posting it as celebrating pride. I was wrong to presume anything out of the gate, with no prior knowledge.

I am still not a fan of poly lesbian fanfics, as I still have those hangups, and cynicism towards the intention of any author who writes such, but at the very least, the author, whether intended or not, did make this grumpy old queer question his own prejudices again. So ?

PingZing

PingZing #10 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 9 · ·

Reply

10295347
10295447
10295554
10296479
Glad you enjoyed!

10295675
Glad you enjoyed! The section with Applejack was kind of a surprise--I it was an "oh hey let's try it" addition to the outline, but I felt like it worked, so I kept it in.

10296174
10296763
Hey, I appreciate your comments. I was intentionally writing out of my comfort zone with this story, and critical feedback--especially of this sort--is actually really valuable.

It made me realize that I kind of romanticize the tragic end for the gay character[...]I was "enjoying the maudlin mood" before everything turned to roses.

I freely acknowledge that the ending of this story briefly takes a look at the challenges inherent in a poly, gay relationship, then aggressively shrugs and says, "shut up, it's fluff time". Part of this is because I just wanted to write happy fluff, but the other part is because I'm about 90% certain that if I tried to address any of that with the care and respect it deserves, I'd fumble it badly. I'd prefer to be fluffy and inoffensive (if unrealistic) than aim for realism and miss.

There is also the cynicism that comes along with seeing a lot of cishet people writing polyamorous lesbian pairings for titillation of a straight male audience, and I presumed (whether right or wrong) that PingZing was doing the same

I'm at least a little bit guilty of this. Cis-het and male: check. I did try to focus more on Apple Bloom's emotional experiences, and her relationship with the other two Crusaders, rather than just pure "lol lesbians" to probably only limited success. And my decision to end on a happily-ever-after robs the story of any particularly deep emotional introspection, but that was pretty intentional. (I ramble about this a little more in the blog post) Though now that you've made me think about it, I'm not really sure if writing for the purposes of happy fluff is less objectionable than writing for the purposes of cis-het male titillation, to be honest? I am sort of co-opting a subculture I don't belong to for my own purposes. Hm. 🤔

BirdsBooksBrownies

BirdsBooksBrownies #11 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · · 1 ·

Reply

10296814
I'm glad you wrote this, even if it was somewhat outside your comfort zone. I think that you did well, you showed the emotional love between the characters and all that, rather than simply having the three decide let's have sex.

I even know several gay couples, both male and female in real life, but I wouldn't feel comfortable asking them about how they feel about gay representation in the media.

I should note that I am a white cisgender male, so yeah, I'm guilty of being familiar with the online "standard" where same sex couples are concerned.

Superb Cow

Superb Cow #12 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 21 · ·

Reply

10296814

I am sort of co-opting a subculture I don't belong to for my own purposes.

Okay, so don't feel ashamed for wanting to write gay characters. It's not co-opting, writing outside your comfort zone is a good thing to do. Queer representation in stories isn't limited to just queer writers, else we'd NEVER get any representation outside arthouse films in universities and sundance.

And don't take what you have written as a stumble... what it was is something that didn't match one old queer guy's hopes and expectations for a story. Young queer people are going to have different ideas and wants from a story, but the fact that you as a cishet male are willing to listen to feedback, even as negative as I originally was, shows a maturity not only as a writer, but as a person. So thanks for warming this grouchy old bastard's heart!

SigmasonicX

SigmasonicX #13 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 4 · ·

Reply

This was great! I loved the format with the letters, and it was great seeing all the girls find some success, even if they ultimately find their way back to Ponyville. Applejack's talk with Apple Bloom was really nice, and had a good lesson. The presentation of the girls' relationship is sweet, and the ending was really nice and cozy. I appreciate you adding lines about being unsure if it will work out, but being willing to try.

J Carp

J Carp #14 · Jun 22nd, 2020 · 9 · ·

Reply

10296763

It's really cool to have these different queer perspectives in a thoughtful discussion, and it feels very appropriate for a pride-focused story to inspire it.

I think one important element is the "titillation of a male audience" thing might be true but kind of misleading. Because lots of times, a fictional story using lesbians to titillate men looks very, very different: it's sexy, not fluffy. And while I'm not certain that it's not primarily straight men that enjoy lesbian fluffiness, I know that kind of thing is very much appreciated by plenty of cis women, NB, genderqueer folks...

I think it's a really good point that lesbian fluffiness can be problematic in its own ways, by sanding off rough edges of the queer experience or by an outsider exploiting other groups' problems for the audience's vicarious emotional satisfaction. And yeah: it's absolutely worth noting how lesbian characters (as an aside, including or maybe even especially involving trans lesbians) are found so often in fluffiness compared to how often gay dudes get the same treatment... but, as you said, not in a way that discourages artists from including representation or serves no purpose but to wreck other people's genuine good feelings from a happy story.

Sorry for jumping from out of nowhere into a discussion that was going well! It was just really cool to see this kind of conversation, and it's a compliment to the story that it inspired that sort of thing. I was feeling a little cynical from the small group of trolls who react negatively to pride stories (which is of course their intention), but reading the comments here made me feel better.

The Scarlett Mare

The Scarlett Mare #15 · Jun 23rd, 2020 · 4 · ·

Reply

Aww this is adorable
I love this so much
Now if you'll excuse me I'm too busy squealing to ramble about this in a big ass comment but I love it very much and it's very wholesome and it made my night!!!

Superb Cow

Superb Cow #16 · Jun 23rd, 2020 · 8 · ·

Reply

10297330
It's actually interesting that you bring up the lesbian fluffiness, I actually think that what you say regarding the fluffiness sanding off the rough edges of queer experience, I'd say that is not a trait just to queer relationships, but relationship writing in general. A fluffy story about the Cakes might be cute, but would not show the converse side of a marriage relationship, that sometimes things aren't all fluffy and happy. Fluff stories have their place (though they personally don't appeal to me), but they are ultimately like a macaroon, or meringue, sweet, but not really filling. The how they met might not be as interesting as a day in the life of story, showing the ups and downs. Heck, even non-married couples have their ups and downs, and these stories can be far more fulfilling than the same old getting together story. But honestly, that is kind of the fault of the media, because that is about all they ever focus on.

Back on topic of queer couples (or triples, quintuples, how ever many)... A good way of writing a queer couple is to kind of write them with the same complexity and depth you'd give to a straight couple. A story about why the Cakes are together would likely revolve around their shared love of baking, rather than just "she's a girl and he's a guy and they're cute together". Why do they stay together through the difficulties. What rewards them for their persistence. And I know that sounds callous, but it is the truth, a lot of the time you are staying with your partner because they give you something special well after the honeymoon period has cooled off. When writing any couple, think of that. What do they have to offer each other that will count in the long run. What will keep them together? What will threaten to split them apart. How will the forces that attract and repel each of them towards and away from each other affect the beginning of a relationship, along with the long term relationship, whether it survives or ends.

You can write a doomed romance, avoiding the bury your gays trope, if you write a story of two (or more) characters whose passion burns bright, but burns out quick. But the key to that is writing not just the start, but writing to the end of that. Show the entirety of the relationship, the ups and the downs, that lead to the ultimate conclusion.

An example of characters heavily implied by the show (to the point it might as well be cannon) to have paired in the end, is in the finale with RD and AJ... their pairing makes a bit of sense, they both have a competitive attitude, they are both bull headed and argumentative, This is shown that they aren't exactly a perfect couple, as when they come into the throne room, they are arguing over each others bullheadedness (also, I was totally ecstatic over that scene). A good story, if focusing on those two, would be what keeps them going. And while I am not normally one for this kind of story, I think 10296814's writing of Rainbow Dash just mashing her lips against AJs is kind of in line with the sort of brashheadedness we see from RD in the show. What keeps it going isn't just cause RD was a good lesbian snog, lol.

A good way to ensure you are writing a good queer couple is... swap the gender of one partner. Does the reason they are together fall apart, or becoming boring? Are they together because they make a cute lesbian couple... would the same thing be said if they were a het couple? In the case of RD and AJ, I'd argue yes. If the sole reason for them being together is they are the only queer people in dodge, then you have a very tenuous story that is probably going to pander. Not to say that it can't make a good story, but it is going to be a very different kind of story. An example of this is Brokeback Mountain*. The guys are a "couple" because they are literally the only gay guys in town. The story would not have received as much acclaim had it been about two cheery cowboys going out bush and cuddling and being sappy and secret gays but ultimately happy.

Now, 10296814 did say that they were wanting to write something fluffy, and that is fine. I actually have come to the conclusion, from my time on this site, that a lot of writers focus on the fluff at the start because that comes down to a lot of the experience of the writers on this site, tending to skew younger than older. And when you're young (I remember those days!) the start of a relationship, the fluffiness (and usually over all horniness) of the relationship is the exciting part. When you get older, if you have been in a longer term relationship (a few years or more) then the fluffiness becomes a little harder to subsist on. It's like a maccas burger, sure, it tastes alright at the time, and you'll want another one soon, but ultimately doesn't super fill your want for something more hardy. Though honestly, I could do with less macca's burgers in real life too

I would say a good person to look into reading, if you want to see fluff mixed with some seriousness, and a non-perfect relationship would be the author scoots2, particularly their Swear on Camembert series. I mean, it is a het relationship, but it does show ups and downs. The first story basically has them bonding over the sad death of a close mutual friend. It is, as 10297330 would put it, a story without the edges sanded off.

*Note: I actually dislike brokeback mountain, personally, as I did not feel, when watching it, that this was a healthy gay relationship, it was very toxic, but that may have been the point of the film. I dunno. I must admit though, the story was at least interesting and not pandering.

And I desperately need to get back to my studies. I am not going to pass my exams without getting off my butt and read some boring uni work, rather than reading ponies.

SC

Lemonshrike Catworthy

Lemonshrike Catworthy #17 · Jun 23rd, 2020 · 4 · ·

Reply

Quite interesting indeed.

Autumn Colors Fall

Autumn Colors Fall #18 · Jun 23rd, 2020 · 8 · ·

Reply

It was actually really nice that when the story hit it's tensest moment it was resolved by just... having a character tell the whole and honest truth, and because it's an older Apple Bloom it's even in character. I also really enjoyed the format with the letters painting a picture of their lives at the start.

As for the relationship being fluffy, it's the very start of the relationship and they are all already super close. I think it's to be expected at this stage. We don't know how things will go in the long run for these three, but that's ok. Right now they are just going to try out a triad relationship and see how it works for them.

Maulet Paya