Poor Twilight Sparkle... she never realized how foolish Celestia was...
Co-Written by Nonagon and Lunacorva
Now with Dramatic Reading by DRWolf!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPVBGQBfz2k
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The Fiery Joker
Joined 23rd Jan, 2012 ·
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Holy $%*&. You posted a new story? Ok then Josh lets see what you got for us this time.
Annnnd stuffing into PC.
Possibly the best line in the story. I loved that.
Ladies and gentlemen: The greatest debate in fanfic history.
Just finished. Liked and added to favorites. That was freaking awesome.
It was well written. I did not see a single spelling error or mistake. It was thought provoking. It was intelligent. It made me get up and think things out a bit. It made me laugh, it made me smile and it ended in a way that makes me wish this was just the first part in a longer story, yet at the same time also feeling like a satisfying conclusion, it dose not need any more then this.
Well done Josh. Well done.
My only question is what the hell actually was the fake Twilight?
Other than that, that was a pretty nice read.
Need a sequel. Who is that fake Twilight?
Also I feel I must point that if you want to do a lecture fic, this is how. The moment AltTwi started preaching, i knew who it was beneath that hood and while I normally don't like it when I can guess it so easily, having the antagonist be AltTwi served the story too well. Too often lecture fics have the lecture handed down by author's mouthpiece (sometimes the author's human form arrogantly enough) and is accepted as the word of god, but here there's actual debate. Twilight doesn't just take it even if some of AltTwi's barbs did manage to draw some blood, she instead returned fire and even left AltTwi ultimately stumped.
Only two things really bothered me. First off the battle against Nightmare Moon. Celestia isn't weaker than her sister, but she had her hooves tied because she wanted to save Luna, not hurt her. She could have battled with Luna in the show, but instead she got to the elements which she probably believed (or wanted to believe) could help Luna somehow.
Second, and this is one that continously pisses me off: CELESTIA DID NOT TURN TWILIGHT INTO AN ALICORN!
Seriously, fucking watch it! 0:09
What transforms Twilight comes from her in the first place! Celestia merely lead her and taught Twilight, what ultimately turned her into an alicorn came from within! Also notice it literally came from the heart. Seriously, how do people keep missing that?!
5639873 HOLY SHIT! HOW DID I MISS THAT!
5639949 Same way everyone else, you were too busy being floored by Celestia's singing.
5639957 Dat voice doh.
5639960 Aye. I may or may not have that song on my ipod.
Wow
This was really fun
I am on both sides of the fence when it comes to these Fan Fic simply because they are both fun to read, but this was just a blast and really got ,e to really challenge myself as i was reading.
Reading all of the 'Crimes' that Celestia committed, i was content to see where this Bash fic or what ever it may have been lead me, but after the second rebuttal i challenged myself to try to fund the flaws after that.
And, surprisingly, I kinda had the same view points.
Except when the imposter brought up the Wedding that just confused me for some reason (Just me).
I do find it sad that they did just leave the imposter there, but i see why.
What could they DO for her.
She could not trust a Mail Stamp of Celestia Cutiemark to send her letter via Dragon mail.
The only thing Imposter did not touch was Alicorn Imortality, but i assume they know Cadance and Twilight are just Alicorn Mortals...
Demi-Alicorns?
Anyway great Piece Joke.
I found it a bit over the top. It's not true for example that Twilight misinterpreted what Celestia was saying when she sent Twilight out to face Sombra. Celestia really did tell Twilight to rely only on herself. But of course the real point of the test was whether Twilight would be prepared to use her own independent judgement or just follow orders to the bitter end. I suspect that if Twilight had flunked Celestia and Luna would have shown up in time to stop Sombra, although that might very well have meant that the Crystal Empire goes bye-bye for another thousand years if Sombra was defeated by brute force rather than by the "correct" way.
And more than that the impression I got by the end was that creator of the false Twilight was in fact the real Twilight who still isn't prepared to admit to herself that she feels the even slightest bit of resentment at having been plucked from her comfort zone and so has created that pitable creature as a receptacle for any slightly negative thought.
5639873
Uh...no actually. Yes, Twilight Sparkle ascended by finishing the incomplete spell. But who sent her that spell so she'd finish it and ascend? No, Twilight's ascension was very definitely something she was lured into by Celestia in cunning schemer mode. Not that I think being a cunning schemer is all that bad a trait in a ruler.
I seem to recall you mentioning how much you HATE "Celestia is Evil" fics...
“It’s called delegation,” Twilight explained. “If Celestia stopped to fix every single problem in her kingdom herself, she wouldn’t have time to breathe. She’s a pony just like you or me and we need to respect that.”
Great story I like the story's when Celestia is NOT an idiot or evil.
5639873
Celestia flees in fear of Luna, like clear and abject terror. And it takes a single blast of FORCE which is not Luna's forte in combat to bring Celestia down. Who is and isn't more potent in total sum of their abilities we don't know and the canon answer is probably equal, but when it comes to which princess is the warrior it has been consistently shown the answer is Luna.
Authority does not equal Asskicking.
5640050
Yeah, same.
"How's Sunset Shimmer?"
People forget that line way too often it says a god damn lot about Celestia.
Very nice. Thanks for writing this.
I DISAGREE BECAUSE OF REASONS
Fantastic story, Josh.
*applauds*
WELL DONE, and a story that needs to have been written.
dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/oh-i-see-what-you-did-there-baby.jpg
Since no-one else seems to have said it here, I shall.
The false Twilight was 'made' by all the people who think that Celestia is a tyrant and/or a troll, and this fic uses evidence from the show, and common sense, to dispute those thoughts. I liked how you showed how those arguments are typically taken by those people through false Twilight.
I will say, however, that I don't mind the glaring plot-hole in those 'Twilight usurps/turns evil because Celestia is an idiot' fics. I guess I can just tune it out and appreciate the fiction more... or something. In any case, a brilliant piece. Looking forward to more.
Keep up the good work. Deus tecum.
5640427
Don't make stuff up. She said she wasn't going to fight Luna and stuck to that. Also she took a blast from Nightmare Moon that had been destroying rather large chunks of their castle and got right back up. You can't claim Luna is the warrior just off what we've seen in the show. She gets one lucky hit and assumes she's won. Yeah, what an excellent warrior.
5640050
Considering it was the elements that changed her and not the spell (Twilight still not figuring out that saying magic spells in front of the Elements has bizarre reactions) and that is something Celestia could not have seen coming since she was already an alicorn at the time of her and Luna discovering the Tree of Harmony and the fact the Elements had spent the last millennium inert. Celestia put Twilight on the path, but she only provided the spell as a means of a tests as Starswhirl merely got the jist of friendship and not the whole concept. She could not have known the Elements would have acted like that since the only other case of an ascended alicorn (cadence) didn't involve the elements at all.
I believe it's quite possible you missed one of the points in this story that Celestia isn't omniscient. Celestia merely lead Twilight, it was Twilight who ultimately caused the alicornification to happen.
I can think of several authors who write twilight like that false Twilight. one of which (I'm not going to say any names, unless I'm talking directly to them), does this as well as making his stories serve as nothing more than Author Tracts bashing the quality of post season 2 episodes, or just acting like a scum-sucker, on other writer's stories.
5640851
Eenope. The first time we saw that Star Swirl notebook was at the end of the Sombra episode with both princesses pleased that Twilight Sparkle has passed the test. Luna takes it out and indicates that they are going to give it to her. It takes a whole season for Celestia to get around to it but I can only interpret that as "Yes, Twilight Sparkle is worthy". And you haven't considered what the spell was even for. I mean what did it do except for correct a problem that only existed because it was miscast?
Most of all, the moment Twilight blasts herself into hyperspace, Celestia is right there, and knows exactly what's going on. This is what she expected to happen. Impressive as it is to plan this ascension, it's not as impressive as the planning that went into sending Twilight to Ponyville to save the world (but then she has a thousand years to work on that one), and it isn't as impressive as it would be for Celestia to instantly know and understand what was was going on if she had no advance knowledge that ascension might happen. Which of course she did have, since she already had at least one example of an ascended alicorn to study and learn from. Cadence.
5641413 There are like 6 logic fail in your statement that I just can't be arsed to address right now. For one, why would Starsquirrel make an alicornification spell that needs the Elements of Harmony to work when he wasn't a wielder of them?
Second, Celestia was there as she was for Cadence when she became an alicorn as well. Just because she's there doesn't mean she freaking caused it. Correlation =/= causation.
5640851
No she just had to summoned god to fight instead.
Tirek episode.
Luna- I wanna go kick it.
Celestia- I'ma send someone else to kick it.
Luna by her nature is far more willing to directly confront threats, and with how magic works in the ponyverse that means more combat magic.
And of course she was dumb as nightmare moon, i explicitly pointed out how she wasn't even fighting to her shown strenghs in that fight.
5641914 She was trying to use the elements to get Luna back to normal again. She didn't want to hurt her sister.
She was trying to use the one being that could detect Tirek and could reliably overpower him as opposed to risking beefing him up on Alicorn magic. Being a warrior takes more than a retarded "Hulk Smash!" viewpoint, it also takes strategy and cunning.
What shown strengths are you talking about?! Luna has never fought anyone before aside from zapping some guards with lightnging which she used a maximum of one time in battle. All the other times she's fought, she used those beams. Stop making up stuff.
Did I just see a reasoned, methodical, well-researched and well-thought-out piece of rhetoric...ON THE INTERNET?
The day has been made. I will have to abstain from 4chan for a while to prevent this new-found faith in humanity from falling to pieces.
Celestia took steps that allowed Twilight's ascension to happen
Nicely done. I concur, largely with your thinking.
I suspect a large part of it all is good (i.e. bad) old-fashioned anti-authoritarianism, as Celestia is the authority figure.
It's like those people who profess to hate Dumbledore and paint him more evil than Voldemort for not waving his hand and making it all not be happening (and incidently meaning there would never have been a story to be told for them to have read), and yet who would throw a screaming fit if he actually did that because it wouldn't be the main character (who they relate to) doing it.
Some people just DO NOT like the idea that someone, somewhere could tell them what do to and that bleeds through sometimes.
Sigh
Did no one,
NO ONE.
LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE CONVERSION/ANTI-CONVERSION DAYS?!?!
Ok, look, I get it, you can't see Celestia turning evil or being dumb, that's fine. I can't stand most of those stories too, I only ever found a hand full of Celestia-insn't-all-that fics that I really like.
But here is the thing. What made those stories fail was all they were filled with was straw-manning and opinions that were not supported by the cannon, being treated as fact. Which is exactly what you did here. Just pointed in another direction.
Anti-Twi is not a character, she is an empty body that you call nothing more then "bitterness and resentment" therefore silencing valid things that people bring up to say Celestia may be somewhat stupid. Not all of them are always valid mind you, and you had some good bits in the beginning of give and take of ideas. But you screwed it all up by just going full "everyone who says ______ about Celestia is evil because there is no way that Celestia could be evil!" If you had been willing to surrender some points and not just have Celestia's opposer be evil this could have been a good character analysis story on two takes on Celestia's character from a pony who likes her and one who does not like her. Hell if you wanted to go AU Twi, make her more interesting, maybe she SUCCESSFULLY dethroned Celestia and Equestria is doing fine without her, parhaps in HER universe all these things WERE malevolently done and she is trying to warn others, yet as she stands, she is just a cardboard cutout to place all the people who don't agree with your thoughts.
This is exactly what happened in the conversion days, people thought the conversion stories were all stupid and nonfactual, so they made stupid nonfactual pro-human stories that came out just as bad. The pendulum swings both ways, neither ends of an extreme is good, just as total anarchy is horrifying, total order without any freedom is just as terrifying. A Celestia that is pure evil is just people trying to force their ideas on others, just as a Celestia who has a valid excusable understandable reason for everything shes done because it's pure evil to even question her actions, is just as stupid and ridiculous, every character needs give and take. Benevolence and Good do not always fall on the same side of the scale.
I was practically groaning when you said "Lawl Twilight can turn the world to ash cause reasons and it doesn't mater that she has shown no signs of doing so in the show because she can move the sun so it makes sense!" May I remind you that we know that the unicorns use to move the sun, so why in the tribe wars didn't they just obliterate any-pony who disagreed with them? we don't know enough about that kind of magic yet in cannon to make jumps of logic like that. Celestia couldn't overpower a god-damn bug jumped up on magic. I highly doubt she can destroy Equestria.
Other then that, writing was good, didn't see many errors, the flow was nice, it was just the right size to get the point you were trying to make across.
As a story I give it a solid 5-6.5-9/10 Its a five if you enjoy stories about Tyrant!Celestia, a solid Six Oh Five (Hell, round that up to a seven if you like!) if (like me) you don't really swing one way or the other.
and a nine if Celestia is your waifu.
~Spymanx
(If any Questions, Comments or worries about any of my reviews arise, MSG me, I'm new, opinionated and blinded! I am open for ideas on how to improve.)
5642311
What are the conversion days?
NMM was defeated in under two minutes.
Thumbs down for the bait and switch. If you want to polish Celestia's rectum in public, at least have the decency to be honest about it. Sometimes I really wish FimFic had rules about misleading descriptions.
Awful. Just awful.
5642414
Now, now, don't be rude.
My target audience for this fic are people who hate Celestia because "she's stupid and Twilight should usurp her." If I were honest about the description, the only people who would read my story would be people who already saw Celestia as the benevolent ruler she is aka preaching to the choir.
"The healthy do not need a doctor, but the sick do."
-Jesus Christ
Some may argue that this is a rant disguised as a story. To that I say, well, it's not a bad disguise. But it is a disguise nonetheless.
As a commentary on Tyrant Celestia stories, this is solid stuff. Barring some headcanon territory, you succeed in making a compelling argument defending Celestia's benevolent nature. But does it stand on its own as a story when a blog post would've sufficed? Eh, just barely. It's true that the battle of wits between Twilight and her doppelgänger had some weight to it. It wasn't an easy victory, but an actual debate. The problem lies in the ambiguity of False!Twilight's true nature. At some point, you realize that she is just a straw pony meant to argue for the losing side and nothing more. Little tidbits such as Sunset Shimmer being shoehorned into the plot also threw me off. Seriously, she didn't really need to be there; the story would have been just fine without her.
It saddens me to say this, but I can't give this my full recommendation. I agree with the points you made as an adamant defender of Celestia's benevolence myself, and for what it's worth, it's not badly written. I just don't think this meta-contextual topic warranted being made into a full-fledged story when you could've just made a blog entry or video about your thoughts on the subject. That's just my opinion, though.
5642429
Hating Celestia is a sickness now? And you have some moral imperative to convince people to see Celestia your way? How does that work?
You wasted five minutes of my life because you want to take a shot at people who hate Celestia. Please write an actual description.
5642435
Fair enough.
5642446
Please stop being rude.
I was being metaphorical concerning the quote, please don't take that literally.
5642453
You know whats rude? Bait and switch. Also, I suggest better metaphors. Likening someone's personal preferences on how a character is depicted to a sickness is less than stellar. It too is rude.
5642468
Okay, I apologize for using an improper metaphor. It was not my intention to offend you. I'll be more careful in the future.
Now, I don't see bait and switch as rude. Underhanded, maybe, but far from rude. I struggle to understand why this bothers you so much. Can we have a civil discussion about it?
5642435
What would you recommend changing?
5642554 The best way to improve this story (or in fact make it more than simple commentary) is to make False!Twilight an actual character. Flesh out her origins; show us why she is the way she is by gradually unmasking her bit by bit as the battle of wits rages on. Is she a dark portion of Twilight's own psyche? A changeling infiltrator trying to make Twilight turn on her mentor? A version of Twilight from another dimension where her arguments are justified? These are just a few possibilities I came up with off the top of my head, and of course, you can come up with your own if you wish. Just give her more depth than simply being a straw pony for Twilight to defeat.
As I mentioned, you could also cut Sunset Shimmer from the story. She doesn't really serve much of a purpose, or if she does, I don't see it.
If you're really serious about making this a philosophical story that stands on its own and not just meta-contextual commentary, then this is the best advice I can give. Otherwise, like I said before, it's a solid bit of writing.
5642817
I see. I did intentionally keep her origins vague, but I'll take your recommendation into consideration.
Also, I really wanted to include Sunset Shimmer because at the same time, she's also a foil to False Twilight and to offer something else to the conversation. If you have any suggestions on how to improve getting that across, I would be glad to hear it.
5642403 I do believe he is referring to the months following the release of the fanfic " the conversion beau" ( spelling >_<)
It's a decent polemic. Some sophistry. The Other is too much an idiot to hold the argument. A table with legs shorter on one side. Fast fourth wall break, links in the text, not to my subjective opinion. Strange note to leave the Other as they did. Enjoyed the Other's identity.
The set targeted in the polemic isn't a very visible one, I claim. Did they merit the polemic at all? Their stuff doesn't get much attention.
Enjoyed it from my seat in the choir.
Don't entertain people who don't understand it's a polemic.
5642403 Eh sorry, I should have specified.
After the now very controversial The Conversion Bureau story was released, there was a huge conflict between the two groups. The people who said "Oh shit living in Equestria sounds great everyone gets to be a pony and there are all these perks and everyone is happy! This is the best fanfic ever!" and the Anti-bureau group who said "Oh shit! These ponies came to our world, called us fat, lazy and evil and this story is saying we somehow destroyed our worlds because being human is monstrous! This is the most misanthropic fanfic ever!" The two groups didn't agree to make a long story short.
The Pro group posted a bunch of bad wish fulfillment stories about all of filthy humanity becoming ponies (that somehow had elements MORE creepy and horrifying then the original) the Anti group posted a bunch of bad wish fulfillment stories about murdering all the ponies because humans are better then everyone (ironically just showing humans as bloodthirsty warmongers, the same thing that everyone got so pissed about in the first place)
Yeah it got really bad. I envy you if you never had to deal with it. Honestly, I just got tired of seeing strawmen after strawmen, the same characters just spouting different words from different authors that show that "I'M THE GOOD GUY" or "I'M SATAN!" Honestly, I do apologize if you felt I was a bit too hard on Anti-Twi being a strawman, its just my writing pet-peeve.
Hope that clarified that!
~Spymanx
5642837
5642435
5642311
Heh. You know what's funny?
Right before she herself appeared, I was convinced the hooded one was actually Celestia in disguise. That this was an elaborate ruse to push herself off the throne for all her failures (real or imagined) and instal somepony she found more fitting. I mean, how did Fake!Twilight even know Celestia forbade Luna to come to the Crystal Empire? Did she hear them from all the way from over at the door?
I'm not ashamed to admit I was hoping for a big sweeping battle a la Ventus v. Vanitus, especially with the music. But the way it went it was fairly good. I did think it was a bit overly cheesy but for what it's worth much more enjoyable than those type of fixs you mentioned. All in all good story josh
5642837 Well, if you're that adamant about keeping Sunset in the story, give her a bit more to do and say. Rereading it again, you do establish a good reason for her to be there; I just felt her contribution to the conversation to be lacking compared to Celestia and Luna.