Intermission- Celestia and Luna
To say Princess Luna was confused would be like saying Pinkie Pie was just a happy pony. While she had not been back long from her one thousand year banishment, there were several things that still held true in modern day Equestria as they did back then. One of them being that making a new law work retroactively was not something done very often and normally for good reason as it could easily be abused. It was because of this that she was currently having tea and scones with her sister, Princess Celestia, in order to get some answers on her concerns over the new law Twilight Sparkle had just passed.
“Sister, why would tho- you let Princess Twilight add a retroactive clause to that law that she has undoubtedly passed by now. Even We know, with being gone for as long as We have, those just aren’t done lightly and cannot fathom why a law on bullying would require such a thing”, the midnight blue alicorn inquired while taking occasional sips of her earl grey tea.
Celestia set down her cinnamon chip scone she has been enjoying and look at her sister. “Luna, while adding such a clause to the law might seem excessive and possibly foolish to you, and possibly many others would agree, there is a reason. One that makes Twilight’s addition of it necessary.”
“And what, pray tell, might that be?”
“I’ve tried twice, in the last two centuries, to pass a similar law; it failed both times”, Celestia sighed as she thought back to both failed attempts. She had not expected bullies to be as smart as they had showed themselves to have been.
The wide eyed, almost slack jawed, bewildered look on Luna's face spoke volumes of her confusion, she then proceeded to state her confusion, “what? How can that be? How could a law have failed twice over? And even if it did We distinctly remember even laws that fail to show any results still stay on the books for the off chance they can be of use.”
Celestia sighed, knowing that the reason why wasn’t going to be pleasant to reveal since it had, in part, to do with her sisters banishment one thousand years ago. “Luna, not long after I had to banish you”, the pearly white alicorn winced at her sisters crestfallen look, “I made a lot of mistakes. particularly with passing laws, and I mean A LOT. There were many laws I had passed within the first century or so. Some of them were successful, some were complete train wrecks, but most were complete failures at their time of passing. And then decades down the line there were opportunistic ponies who decided to abuse these old and nearly forgotten laws for their own gain. It was one legal nightmare after another as ponies found ways to use them. I eventually had those laws stricken from the books and passed a new one keep such things from happening again… a law that has basically protected it self and is the reason why Twilight Sparkle is making her first law retroactive.”
Luna listened to her sister with intrigue, not having heard of any such law since her return and was concerned as to what it might be. “Sister, Celly, what kind of law did you pass?”
Celestia took a long sip of her own earl grey tea. “ Lulu, I passed a law which basically states that any law which does not show any signs of having had any discernible effect on Equestria, positive or negative, within one year of its passing would automatically removed from use. That law is the reason why both of my previous laws against bullying have failed’, Celestia gave a rueful smirk at what a double edged sword that law had been.
“How is that possible though? Bullying is such a problem that We have had to help colts and fillies alike in their dreams on occasion over what they have suffered through. Surely there must have been some results from such a law being passed that the one you mentioned wouldn’t have affected it.”
“First off, don’t call me Shirley”, Celestia joked, earning an groan and an eye roll from Luna because of the joke that she was positive was older than they were. “Second, bullies are unfortunately much smarter than many possibly give them credit for. Both times after I passed those laws, bullying basically stopped. And I don’t mean it decreased until you didn’t hear about it anymore. I mean it basically completely disappeared in the blink of an eye pretty much. And before you say anything about that being proof the law had results, I unfortunately wrote the One Year Law in such a way somepony must be punished by a laws guidelines in order for it to be considered a success. After a year of no bullying and no punishments, both times, the laws were taken off the books. And not even several days later you would hear that bullying had started again.”
Luna’s widened in comprehension of what it was that the newest princess was trying to do with her new law. “Celly, stop me if We are am wrong, but the reason Princess Twilight is passing that Anti-Bullying Law and making it work retroactively is to bypass the One Year Law, isn’t it?”
Celestia smiled as her sister figured out what Twilight was doing. “Indeed Lulu. With this Twilight is basically both bypassing the laws and bullies seemingly innate ability to keep themselves out of trouble as they have the last two times. With this there can hopefully be something done about bullying in Equestria with fair punishments. And if needed the punishment can be reworked as needed should any issues arise. I will say I was hesitant like you were when she approached me with this plan of hers, but between her reasoning and all the colts and fillies in Ponyville asking her to do something about the local bullies, it seemed like the best course of action. Now all we can do is wait and see how it plays out.”
“We guess you are right sister. More tea,” Luna offered to Celestia who gratefully took some as they continued their to enjoy their afternoon. That is until Luna added one last tidbit to the conversation. "Also, you must tell us about that Baked Goods Tax Law some time", she stated mischievously and taking delight in Celestia spitting her tea clear across the room at the mention of that particular law.
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Seems to me that the solution is to change the one year law to give it better ability to determine if things have changed, rather than make new laws retroactive.
4820887
Since when has Celestia or any of the other every done anything the EASY way?
Hmm...the problem there with the anti-bullying law would seem to be what, exactly, classifies as bullying.
For example, if the CMC - in their glee over being free of being bullied - wound up actively seeking out the company of DT and SS so as to trigger those two bullying them in order to get them in trouble...would that be considered the CMC bullying DT and SS?
4820973
Ohhhh...
Remember Fluttershy also bullied a ton of people with her Iron Will Speeches. She even attacked people straight up, then you've had Pinkie Pie practically bullying Cranky despite him not wanting her there (At least till the end regardless).
You could also make a case of Twilight considering her antics with 'Smarty pants' as well.
But yeah, alotta people could get in trouble unless there's some specific law.
4821119
That may well be how DT and SS make this law backfire on Twilight...in the discussion of what, exactly, qualifies as bullying.
Of course, Twilight could probably negate all of that by stating the law only applies to minors, as 'bullying' behavior amongst adults can generally be classified as other forms of crimes.
4820973
Well, I don't know. Are Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon accountable for what they say and do, even while being pestered? It would seem to me that if the two lose their tempers because the CMC wish to spend time with them, it's their fault for not controlling themselves like an upstanding member of society should. Granted, once DT and SS politely ask the CMC to leave them alone, and once they've brought the situation to the attention of an adult, if the behavior persists it should be called bullying - until then, it's merely an attempt by the CMC to befriend DT and SS through the investment of time.
4821369
Except for the fact that as she stated in the first chapter "Mostly affects colts and fillies"
It doesn't have an age deferment if that was the case.
Just take your time, no one will blame you
4821369 That's why "case-by-case basis" is the key. I'm sure Princess Twilight will decide that in the cases of her friends and her friends' siblings, punishment can include things like counting Twilight Time as community service, and for the adorabullies, it can include dredging the town sewers or something. Cronyism gets such a bad rap, but when you think about it, it's really just the magic of friendship in legal/business form!
Oh, and is anyone else impressed with how intelligent and disciplined the bullies of Equestria are? Multiple times EVERY SINGLE bully in the entire nation has stopped bullying for an entire year, even though most of the bullies are kids. There's only one possible explanation: A Bully Union! They must be organizing bully walkouts or something. I just worry that Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon will be replaced by cheap imported Gryphon bullies, who will make fun of the Cutie Mark Crusaders for half the pay an honest, patriotic Equestrian bully deserves!
Since Celestia has given herself the ability to pass the same law multiple times, she should just pass the anti-bully law one day after it expires every year. You'd end up with the Purge for kids.
4822437
So the punishment is always in proportion to the charge, as determined by a local judge? That works, as long as the judge is someone who won't be bribed.
4822457 I think the "judge" in Ponvyville is Princess Twilight herself, and in the context of Cronyism, friendship is like a bribe you never have to pay, you get the benefits anyway!
You know what else is interesting? Remember how Twilight said this law was being given a trial run in Ponyville to see if it was effective before it was launched across Equestria? How will it be judged to be effective? It can't be "reduce bullying in Ponyville," because Twilight knows that Celestia already passed these laws before and they DID reduce bullying and were still judged failures. The only other metric would be if bullies are punished under this new law. And since Twilight has made this law, retroactive, she's GUARANTEED it's success.
Of course, that mean's she's basically punishing bullies now for things they did in the past not to teach them a lesson, but to achieve a political goal, like a traffic cop who gives you tickets now for speeding you did last month so he can make this month's ticket quota. (Well, if the speeding was legal last month) It's fairly Machiavellian, and I am now picturing Twilight as Kevin Spacey on House of Cards.
Also, I'm curious how bullying is defined. Most acts of "bullying" are already illegal: i.e. assault, battery, harassment, so is Twilight just stiffening the punishments? Is she planning to step up enforcement?
4822607
I think it's basically stepping up enforcement, as most acts of bullying are ignored unless witnessed by an adult as "kids being kids".
4822629 Are they ignored? Wasn't the whole problem of One Bad Apple that the CMC never told an adult about Babs Seed taking over DT and SS's gang and turning them from a duo of classic mean girls into ACTUAL bullies? And when they DID tell an adult, like when they printed that article about being blackmailed, Diamond Tiara was promptly punished.
Unless you mean there's no longer going to be a presumption of innocence for certain crimes.
4822643
I was referring to bullying in general, where the current set up is that teachers can't legally do anything unless they witness the bullying. In the case of this law, an accusation of bullying at the school would be treated like any other criminal accusation: charges would be filed, evidence and witness statements presented, and a judge - or possibly a jury - would file a ruling and determine a punishment.
4822661 Yeah, what you're saying fits pretty well with the law's description, basically children will be treated the same as adults from now on, rather than having special rules governing their own crimes.
4822674
Exactly. Rather than the crimes being treated differently, it will just be a set of punishments in line with the children's behavior...or specifically tailored to force the parents to address the issue.
4822683 I didn't see anything about it being tailored to punish parents, but basically yeah. Though I do wonder what this will mean for Cheerilee. Does she record all complaints at the end of the day and take them down to the police station? Do victims of bullies have to go to the police station to report crimes committed against them? Will a Royal Guard be stationed on the playground? I mean, in theory Cheerilee or any teacher could report assault or harassment to the police, so I suppose this just removes their ability to exercise discretion, like mandatory minimum sentencing.
I am still in awe of those hyper-competent, super-intelligent bullies though, who were able to outsmart Princess Celestia to a FOAL. I hate to say it, but I kind of think bullies should run Equestria now. They'd probably do a good job of it.
Nightmare Moon shows up, the super-organized bullies mercilessly mock her night sky until she runs away crying, basically what happened in Nightmare Night.
Discord breaks free, they find a way to give him a rainbow powered-wedgie or an Elements of Harmony indian burn or something.
Sombra returns, all the bullies mock him for studying dark magic a bunch like a NERD!
They decide to reform Discord using peer pressure, and tell him he's lame because he's alone and different and he'd better fit in with the ponies if he doesn't want to be a weirdo.
Vines show up, all the bullies start teasing Discord about being into gardening until he gets rid of them.
Finally with Tirek, the bullies promise Discord that if he takes Tirek down and locks him up in Tartarus, Discord will finally be cool enough to join the Bully Union. After Discord does it of course, they throw eggs at his house and run off laughing.
If only we had such a law against bullying in the U.S., would make my life so much easier.
The problem with such a law lies with enforcement. As Celestia points out, many bullies are diabolically clever when it comes to avoiding recompense for their actions. Any school with someone with at least a tiny iota of common sense behind the helm is going to have bullying banned or forbidden by official policy at the school. The problem lays in defining what bullying actually is, which is nowhere as easy as it might sound as many bullies are incredibly skilled at exploiting loopholes in rules and laws restricting their actions to get what they want, namely suffering from their victims.
Take cyberbullying for example. Everyone knows about it. Everyone knows how wrong it is. Why is it so hard to stop? It's not because people don't believe it's harmless or not wrong. The problem is that it's a confusing morass of what is defined as "bullying" and whose responsibility it is to enforce it. Cyberbullying takes place on the internet and, thus, technically isn't in the jurisdiction of the schools unless some bully is stupid enough to get caught using a school's computer to carry out said bullying. At the same time, what constitutes bullying in that context? What boxes does a post on someone's Facebook page have to check off before it counts as a bullying remark? How many such posts have to occur before it's considered genuine harassment? The definition has to be exacting to some degree, because leaving it up to interpretation means it comes down to the personal impression of the investigator, which opens it up to all kinds of potential for abuse or neglect. To make matters worse, this is the internet, where people throw around cuss words like they're going out of style and casually toss around racist, sexist, and otherwise just plain foul language all over the place.
Granted, Equestria doesn't have the internet yet (although I'm sure Twilight will get around to inventing it at some point). But even within the context of the more standard forms of bullying, there's always some form of wiggle-room that bullies are all too happy to exploit. Hell! Even old-fashioned brute violence isn't as cut and dried as you'd think. Some of the worst bullies are those who push their victims into an emotional corner, often through hurtful remarks until said victim snaps and lashes out. Then, because the bully is the one with the bruises, it's the victim who gets punished, which, from the bully's perspective, is almost like a bonus. Not only did they get to make their victim suffer, but the victim gets punished for it on top of that. Certainly, there's always the hope that the victim could explain the situation, but actually proving that an attack was genuinely provoked is a slippery, unpleasant matter, especially for the victim and the people who are genuinely trying to see justice done.
Ultimately, the weakness of any anti-bullying law or policy lies in first determining what constitutes bullying and then determining if said bullying actually occurred as bullies, like criminals of any other stripe, can be fantastically creative when it comes to weaseling their way out of any legal definition for what they actually did.
some were complete
in their dreams
img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130405221911/mlp/images/e/e1/FANMADE_Luna_I_see_what_you_did_there.jpg
4822889
Someone gets it finally. Thank you Moguera. Though Twilight is going to make this law as loophole as possible. And know how she does things, somepony will have to be possibly smarter than her to find any
4822629
4822683
You get what I am going for with this as well.
But wouldn't the One Year Law remove itself once a year had gone by with it removing any laws?
But seriously, the problem here is how poorly written the OYL was. It's not a bad idea, but it clearly needs to be tweaked a little if the only metric it uses is "was someone punished". Add a metric that compares counts of the prohibited actions from before and after passage to its logic and the bullying law should stand up on its own with no retroactive clause required.
It's also just a little unbelievable that every single bully in the country would have both the legal savvy to know how to wait out the bullying law and the patience and self control to last a full year. And if every single foal really is that savvy, surely at least one former victim would also be savvy enough to take a fall to keep the law active.
4823253
The thing with it was that it only needed to be made of use once for it not to cancel itself out, which would have been a legal paradox had that happened. It is pretty much implied that a law passed just before it failed thus allowing it to work and stay around.
In all honesty, I am doing this all with no set plan other than come up with one law at a time and all the things that shall happen around it.I LITERALLY wrote the first chapter in less than 2 hours of the idea popping into my head, and had published it the second I found a cover art before I let myself wimp out like I normally would with trying to write a fic.
Even the second chapter I had no plan other than either Twilight having sent out a test to all schools in Equestria designed to find out how bullies would react to the law being passed, but being basically disguised as nothing more than a some kind of survey with questions that have no write or wrong answer. And the teachers after getting them back would mark the ones belong to either known or possible bullies before sending them back for Twilight to go over and a vast majority would have basically indicated they would have done what DT and SS were gonna do: Keep their heads down and their noses clean until it blows over. Some would have just made sure they aren't found out. That was option one.
You can see I didn't go with that. Mainly because I feel I am not clever enough of a writer to pull that off in a way that makes a lot of sense. I know I have likely opened a can of worms trying to go with Twilight's first law working retroactively, but that is my problem to try and work through until the chapters with it are done and I can move onto whatever I decide the next should be.
Very intresting, aproach to Equestria legal aspect, i sometime wish the serie show these aspects of Equestria thanks for the hard work and sharing
4823354 You sound like you need an plot editor. Also, the One Year Law would cancel itself out because the years it cancel out have no discernible effect on Equestria, therefore removing those laws have no discernible effect on Equestria. The One Year Law should also have a clause preventing itself from being removed, both to sidestep that problem and to explain why Celestia hadn't removed it yet.
I know want to hear about the Baked Goods Tax Law now, and yay! Update [sorry for not getting to it till now]. Can't wait to see Heavy Crate, Surf, Turf, Deets and Silver Spoon get Law Punted. Or anyone that's been mean to Flutters ... I wonder if the retrolaw will punish Blue Blood for being a troll to Rares on the Grand Galloping Galla, and Upper Crust and Jet Set for their acts to Rarity [even though it was subtle, it could be considered bullying. Or just being aristocratic tards.]
You had my interest, as the saying goes, but now you have my attention.
This seems like it might be a more amusing mix of moderate competence and unforeseen consequences than the one or two tries I've seen of this concept, which generally just emphasize the consequences without giving Twilight Sparkle, Princess of Books, Friendship, and Obsessive Reorganization with Checklists, her due skill at considering some problems ahead of time.
TL/DR: Boring invincible hero is lame; boring utterly incompetent hero is worse. So far, we've not got either one!
I NEED MOAR!!!!!!!!!
This should be interesting, wonder what law Twilight will make next.