So, let's talk S&B. (Warning: Long. Duh.) · 7:41am Sep 5th, 2013
Hello hello, dear readers. A few days ago I promised I would write a follow-up to S&B, so here it is. Be ye fairly warned: This is going to be a long post. But then, you've probably come to expect that by now. After all, we're recapping a freakin' year and a half of updates and dropped ideas. There will likely be a lot what-ifs and a bit (more than a bit) of self-felating. Huzzah! The self-congratulatory masturbation has been doubled!
Where do I begin? Well, I suppose I should start with the very conception of S&B in its current form. Back in late 2011, through a series of events that I found both confusing and arousing (ladies), I started to read a few clop fics. I perused the veritable troves of porn that were available on the clopfic archive, and, well....found the majority of them to be sorely lacking. I can understand getting that "urge" and just wanting to get to the fuckin', but really, most of these stories had nothing beyond that. They shipped two random ponies and awkwardly threw them into a few positions, where there was much squishing of fluids and grinding of body parts, before slapping on a throw-away ending. Ultimately, with the exception of a very few, I felt like I had wasted my time.
And when you've wasted your time reading pony porn, that's an entirely new level of sadness.
In particular, I found a story called "Preggity". It's become quite (in)famous over the years. I had no idea what the fuss was about at the time. I just thought the idea of anon and Rarity raising a foal together would be interesting. And it was...for a while. Uh, and then the fetishes started showing up. Followed by the bizarre fetishes. Followed by the really bizarre fetishes.
Needless to say, my interest went from 'passable' to 'oh god make it stop' pretty fucking quick. Don't get me wrong, the story had some genuinely heart-felt moments of interaction between Rarity and the protag, but holy mother of Celestia did it turn weird. Some very, very out of character stuff started happening with Rarity, and the instances of such were increasingly off-putting. For example, could you, the reader, as someone who knows Rarity to a decent degree, possibly imagine her foregoing her trademark grace and beauty? Could you imagine her dropping everything she's held dear about her looks and her business? Furthermore, could you imagine her deciding to eat so much that she literally becomes an immobile blob, just scarfing down plate after plate of food or an entire fucking tray of cupcakes? What if I told you she did so because her boyfriend wanted her change everything about who she is, just to fulfill an "immobility" fat fetish?
If you just resisted the urge to vomit, welcome to the club. I had no idea such a thing even fucking existed. But I do now. THANKS, INTERNET. THANKS A BUNCH.
*deep hurting*
Coincidentally, I took a few subtle jabs at the story in my own story.
So! I got it into my mind that I could do better, and over the next few days spent some time here and there trying to come up with a scenario that wasn't already done to death. What did I settle on? Second person narration, with Human in Equestria, involving Rarity.
ORIGINALITY, HOOOOOO!!
Yeah, I know. By itself, it's about as original a concept as putting some meat between two pieces of bread. Ladies.
The thing about it was, I felt I could do it a little differently. Where as every other second-person story I'd read had the protag not speaking a single line or feeling a single emotion, I thought I could do both of those things while still keeping the "you" perspective. Did it work? Judging by the overwhelmingly positive reception I've received, I'd say it did. As far as I know, no other second person story has attempted character development and dialog with an audience insert.
Second person is a turn-off for some people, as is Human in Equestria (HiE), and that's fine. You can't expect everyone to love what you create, because this is the internet, and the internet just fucking loves to be cynical. Even about pastel cartoon horses.
While we're on the subject of 2nd person, let me say this: I have no idea if 2nd person was the ideal format for S&B. I can see arguments for both sides, and many people have asked me if I would rewrite the story with the more traditional 1st or 3rd person perspective if given the chance. Honestly? I have no idea. S&B became an experiment; my first attempt at romance, pony fanfiction, and second-person narrative. With that in mind: No. I would not change the story narrative. I'm very happy with how S&B has turned out. It's occupied a nice little niche. I doubt you'll see second-person from me again, but for what it's worth, it's been fun.
As many of you probably know, S&B was originally meant to be a short story with maybe 2-3 chapters. Uh, that obviously was expanded upon just a bit. I'd meant to make a story involving Rarity that had a protagonist that still had some semblance of human emotion, and I'd have some clop scenes and a rival for Rarity to butt heads against, and it would all be wrapped up in short order. Looking back at when I first started writing, I was still very much in the "clopfic first" mindset; my sex scenes were very descriptive, albeit without resorting to the stupid and frankly off-putting kind of slang or language you tend to find in stories like this. I felt that sex wasn't something to be glossed over, but I also thought I could do so without sounding like some fourteen year old who had never even seen a naked woman. Which, I suspect, is exactly what most clopfic writers are. How else could you possibly explain some of the bizarre and utterly stupid descriptions of anatomy? I don't know why so many clopfic writers seem to think that an aroused woman is basically a fucking bathtub faucet set on high, or why the go-to for sexual situations involved quasi-rape and the kind of language that would make a sailor's ears burst into flames, but I suspect it's because they've never actually had sex. If your idea of realistic sex comes from porn, that ain't realistic sex. Sex between two people (or a person and a magical pony) in a stable relationship is about love. They're not just having sex, they're making love. There's a big difference.
Okay, sometimes it's about pure, unbridled lust, but hey, if you don't feel like tearing the clothes off your significant other and having filthy, sweaty love at some point, you're probably doing it wrong.
Anywho, I wrote a few scenes and included a little conflict with the protag and Rarity, and off-handedly (hoofedly?) introduced Cashmere as a rival.
Speaking of which, let's talk Cash(mere), shall we? Everyone's favorite old-marefriend-turned-bitch-turned-sorta-friend was originally way, way more evil. Like, comically evil. In the first draft of S&B, Cashmere was the head of a "fashion syndicate". Think of The Mob, but with less three-piece suits and pasta. I had Cash pegged as the leader of this ruthless organization that had an iron grip on the import and export of all materials and income generated within Ponyville and the surrounding area. She was a Green Eyed Monster, as TVTropes would put it. On top of that, everyone's favorite foreman and dispenser of foul-mouthed sagely advice, Pipe Wrench, was going to end up being her mole in Ponyville, keeping track of the protag because of his closeness to Rarity.
Let me repeat that: Pipe Wrench was a thug for Cashmere's evil fashion mafia. Man, aren't you glad that didn't pan out?
I realized how stupid that was pretty quick, right after I'd decided that S&B would be more than a chapter or two. Cashmere went from a laughably evil mob boss to a tamer, more realistic business rival who had a grudge against Rarity for reasons yet unknown (at the time). This way, I could have the conflict between Cash and Rarity feel more grounded in reality. I figured, hey, Rarity has had more than her fair share of life-threatening danger in the show. If I was going for a 'realistic' HiE story, I thought she and the protag should face a conflict that was more threatening than a dragon or a changeling queen: The potential loss of the Carousel Boutique, Rarity's pride and joy. After all, business rivals are all the rage!
With Cash no longer a comically evil bitch (downgraded to just a bitch), I figured that I needed the protag to have a best friend. Someone he could speak to about his problems. Since I'd determined previously that the protag would be a former Army engineer turned construction worker (a blue collar job for a regular guy, and not "THE SAVIOR OF GOD DAMN EQUESTRIA" or something similar that seems to pop up so often), it only made sense that his best friend be someone he works with. Thus, Pipe Wrench became the protag's foreman who had become his best friend over time, thanks to Pipe giving our poor human a chance to earn a decent living. A few more ponies filled out the construction cadre, and I think the construction crew ponies remain my favorite OCs in this story to this day. They're hard-working, regular joes who just want to do their jobs and make a life for themselves, and once in a while they get together and have a good time.
Again, after toning Cashmere down, the theme of "realistic Equestria" was a constant. Not everyone can be a world-saving hero, and not every antagonist can be a reality-warping god of chaos. Sometimes, the most compelling story is the simplest one. In my (admittedly iffy) previous fanfics, none of which were pony related, I'd always tried to focus on the human aspect of things that tended to gloss over them, thus making the story feel more personal and grounded.
Speaking of OCs, I really enjoyed adding my own to the story. I always tried to make them interesting and likeable or, in the case of Slate, unlikeable. Besides the big three of Cashmere, Pipe, and Slate, I added Aegis and his son Whip-Smart (a former guard turned jeweler and a refined unicorn construction worker, respectively), Ruby and Cabernet (the vineyard owners, the latter a pegasus who enjoyed working the earth), the ever-bubbly Morning Blossom (complete with braces-induced lisp), and a small batch of others who played bit roles.
And every time I introduced them, reaction was very positive! That made me feel pretty good, like I was doing something right with them. It was definitely a joy to write them, so I'm glad you all enjoyed reading about them.
Furthermore, it became apparent to me very early on that I wanted to really explore life in Equestria outside of the bedroom. Equestria is a big place, and we know very little about it. If I could have Rarity and the protagonist travel around under some pretense or other, then why not do it? Off the top of my head, I can remember describing, in great detail: Manehattan, Canterlot, Ponyville (obviously), and a creation of my own, Frostvalley Meadows. In the show itself these places are just glanced over, with some views here and there, but we never really get the sense that these are big, populated places. They're just there. So I did my best to make some gratuitous scenery porn, and went to great lengths to have the major locations of the story feel alive, down to the individual ball rooms or businesses.
To be fair, scenery porn has always been a big thing to me, even more so than dialog or what-have-you. Did I mention S&B was my very first attempt at both romance and a dialog-heavy story? For what it's worth, I feel I have improved greatly over the last year and a half at both of those things, with varying degrees of satisfaction. I always feel like I could do better, but in general I'm happy with how things turn out. Usually.
Let's be honest here: S&B isn't perfect. No story can be, but as someone who spent so much time typing away I always tend to focus on the things that are wrong. Everyone who writes a story does. Some of them stop because of it. So, what do I think wasn't so great?
First and foremost, the length of the thing. At over 350k words, this story is a freakin' book. You could print this sucker out and slap a hardcover on it and it would rival most novels you have in your collection.
You do have books at home, right? RIGHT?!
While the length of the story can, at times, be its greatest strength (ie slow character building), it can also be its most glaring weakness. 30 chapters is a lot of reading; you could probably spend a solid day of non-stop reading before getting through the thing. For those of you who have followed me for a while, it probably wasn't so bad, with a chapter usually coming out once every couple of weeks early on, and once a month later.
But looking at the story from the viewpoint of someone who is just getting into it, it's pretty daunting: 350k+ words, 30 chapters. That's a lot of time to devote to one story. While I thoroughly believe that time is worth it, I'm sure there are more than a few people who have glanced at it and been turned away. The only stories I can think of that are that long are freakin' Fallout: Equestria and The End of Ponies, and I wouldn't compare my story to those except in length.
By the way, both of them are god damn amazing. Go read them. DO IT.
Honestly, some of that 350k+ length was filler. How could it not be? Sometimes I'd hit a friggin' brick wall of writer's block, and I'd just blank slate for days or weeks at a time. In those cases, I'd find something I thought would be relatively interesting to read about, and expand on it from there. Many of the out-of-town events and travels are a result of this, though I feel the majority of them ended up adding to the story quite nicely. Still, if it wasn't actively advancing the plot of the story it would feel like it was dragging things out a bit. I am no less guilty of filler than any other writer, but I still did my best to make it entertaining to read. Hopefully it worked.
Second, with a story this long, it's inevitable that some things would get repeated. As the person writing it it didn't feel like things were repeated too often at times, and I've always tried to avoid reusing words, themes, or expressions too much, but hey...it happens. Specifically, the protag's pet names for Rarity were originally just some variant of "babe". Now, I thought that was a decently realistic take on things, as couples call each other "babe" and "baby" all the damn time, but yeah, it did start to wear a little thin after a while. Thus, I added other pet names that would fit a loving couple for the sake of variety. I also had the protag use Rarity's name more often. Ultimately, I think it ended up working out okay. Besides, if I'd thrown in more pet names, they would have sounded ridiculous or out of place. After all, how many guys call their girlfriends or wives anything other than some variant of "baby" or "honey" or occasionally "dear"? Shit, that was all I ever heard when I was growing up! Maybe that has something to do with it.
On a related note, I will never, ever apologize for Rarity saying "darling" all the time. It's her freakin' signature word, for cryin' out loud! It's sophisticated and sexy and endearing, just like her. So anyone who tires of Rarity's use of "darling" can sit on a tomato pin cushion and spin!
...Though I do kinda like when she says "my dear" or "my love". Still classy!
I also received a (very) few complaints about the sex scenes. This always puzzled me. Before you even click on the story, it says "Mature: Sex" right there in big, bold letters. What the hell were they expecting? If a war movie threw out a warning that said "Violence and Gore", would you then be surprised when some dude gets blown in half by artillery? Because you shouldn't be. Unless it's Saving Private Ryan, because holy shit that movie is brutally honest about war.
One person, waaaaay back at the start of the story, said he skipped the sex scenes. In a clop fic. Buh? I suppose I could look at it as the sex not being the focus of the story, which it did gradually fade away from, but still, if you're not into reading about sex in a clopfic you may be in the wrong neighborhood.
Which reminds me: Over time, S&B went from a straight clopfic to a legitimate romance story with sex occasionally added in. I think it was the right choice; it just made the sex stuff more personal and intimate when it did happen. Hell, I think the last chapter we had a sex scene in was, oh...23 or 24? A flashback to when Rarity and the protag first made love. That's 6-7 chapters with no sex what-so-ever, just relationship building.
Funny how things turned out like that, huh? For the record, I believe chapter 8 had the best sex scene. It was TWELVE PAGES WORTH, with a sexy lap dance and lingerie and failed teleportation and horngasms. What more could you ask for?
What else...well, just little things here and there. Occasional typos, mostly. I am a huge fuckin' grammar nazi most of the time (as my friends can attest to), but when you're pounding out a chapter 10-15k words long at 4am and running solely on day-old Starbucks and a constant supply of Derpibooru pics (MUST SAVE EVERYTHING), typos happen once in a great while. And then I don't usually notice them until I re-read the story a few days or weeks or months later, but at that point it's too late to go in and modify them, because for some inexplicable reason FiMFiction has "date last modified" next to each chapter, and my OCD won't let me have "Last modified August 30th, 2013" on a chapter when the one underneath it says "Last modified April 15th, 2012".
It's probably one of those things no one notices and/or gives a fuck about, BUT I NOTICE IT. I NOTICE IT SO HARD. I CAN'T UN-NOTICE IT.
So, now that the little things are out of the way, let's discuss the 800lb pony in the room. And I don't mean in Preggity. AH-HA-HA! Y-You see what I did there? Ya see it?! I don't think you see it. But we'll move on.
Yes, I am referring to everyone's favorite butter-colored introvert pegasus. Who I'm sure isn't actually 800lbs, but you get the metaphor. Right? Right.
Oh, poor Fluttershy. I could never do you justice.
See, back when I started writing the story, I had it in my head that I wanted to introduce Fluttershy pretty early on as a third member of the relationship. Why? Well, because, honestly, I wanted to write a threesome. As you may have guessed by now, I had a lot of dumb ideas before everything came together.
Now, I'm not calling the idea dumb because I think threesomes are dumb -- holy mother of all things sexy, they are most certainly NOT dumb -- but I'd say my implementation of Fluttershy's inclusion was dumb. It wasn't handled as well as I would have liked, or certainly could have done, and as such it remains the romantic plot tumor on a story I consider to otherwise be pretty good.
Fluttershy is a hard character to write for, at least in my opinion. I'm sure lots of others would say that about Rarity. But for some reason I just feel like I get Rarity. It's hard to explain. I just don't get Fluttershy nearly as well.
Once I introduced her, I realized that I had taken things too quickly...but by then I couldn't exactly back out of it. I was stuck with trying to make Fluttershy fit into a relationship that was so soundly revolving around Rarity and the protag, and for most of my time with Fluttershy I had no idea what to do. That's why the poor girl ended up getting shunted into the background or written out of a scene so often. I feel pretty shitty about it, honestly. Fluttershy is a great character, and I really think she could have fit into the grand scheme of things if I'd really given it a try.
Instead, I panicked. I tried to make her slowly become more involved with Rarity and the protag, sharing a kiss here and a tender moment there, but it sort of turned into a deconstruction after a while. After all, there are lots of threesome stories, but how many of them really touch on the details about just how fucking complicated such a relationship would be? There would be conflict like crazy. Emotions all over the place. That is what I ended up trying to write for Fluttershy -- a confession of love from Rarity that had united them in a budding triang relationship, but with one party, namely the protagonist, finding out that things weren't as rosy as he might have imagined.
Did I at least pull off a decent deconstruction of the "fantasy threesome relationship where everyone is just peachy" thing? I don't know. I like to think that I did to a certain extent, and indeed, when I was writing Fluttershy I tried to go into excruciating detail about why things were so complicated. Maybe I ended up being self-defeating with it. That's for all of you to decide. As the author I want everything to work out, but I realize that's not reality.
I could have done far more with Fluttershy, had she been in her own story. But trying to put her into an established relationship didn't work out so well, and to me that's the biggest flaw with the story by far. I mean, I'd had a threesome planned for a long time. Ever since, like, chapter 6 or something. I just kept putting it off and putting it off. Occasionally I would write the start of such a scene, only to delete it because it didn't fit, or felt forced.
Since we're on the subject, I feel it would be a good time to introduce a little segment I call...
From the Cutting Room Floor
Insert your own dramatic music.
The following is a list of story ideas and/or scenes that I had planned, maybe even written out, but ultimately decided against. Usually because they were stupid or came out of left field, but sometimes -- usually with romance stuff -- I couldn't fit it in with the flow of the narrative at that point. So here they are, in no particular order, minus the ones that have already been discussed. Some of them are romance, some are action, some defy classification. All of them ended up meeting the delete key.
--At some point during the Cashmere and Rarity conversation, when the protag and Rarity dropped by Cash's house for dinner, it was going to be interrupted. By a hydra attack.
No, I'm not kidding. I was going to have a hydra attack Ponyville, and Cashmere would have been in danger, and Rarity would have saved her, thus proving that she still cares and yada yada. Cut to black. Everything's peachy.
Yeah, not so great, right? A story that, up until this point, had a fight with a pegasus stalker as its biggest action scene, was going to have a random fucking hydra attack. Out of nowhere. In the middle of dinner. I spent days coming up with it, only to end up dropping it when I realized how stupid it was.
--Threesomes, threesomes, threesomes! Probably every other chapter I had plans to finally have Rarity, Fluttershy and the Protag get to bumpin' body bits, but ultimately it never panned out. The more I thought about it, the more I realized that I didn't want to throw in Fluttershy having sex with a guy that she would ultimately end up leaving soon after to find her own mate. Call me old-fashioned, but I thought the protag was smarter than that. It would have felt like they were using her, or at the very least didn't give it enough thought.
In my romance-centric world, your first time should be with someone you really care about, someone who will (hopefully) be there for you for a long time to come. Fluttershy deserved better than what amounted to a pity fuck. I know a lot of people were hoping for a threesome scene, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it. Hopefully you understand.
Which isn't to say that I couldn't, oh, release a few scenes in blog form at some point. Just because I can. Hell, I could cut loose and make it absurd! Rarity/Protag/Cashmere, full of two mares berating each other and vying for the protag's attention? Sure, why not!
--In the chapter where the protag finally admits that he doesn't feel for Fluttershy what he feels for Rarity, I had a scene in the spa's hot springs that was pretty steamy (pun intended). Long story short, Rarity and Fluttershy started getting very comfortable with each other, and eventually Fluttershy started grinding herself on Rarity's leg, overcome by the feelings rushing through her and the hot, steamy water around her, until she...
....
Hold on, I need a cold shower.
...
...
...
Okay. I can think clearly again. Ahem.
Like I was saying, she was going to experience her first orgasm. That's pretty hot, right? Yeah. But as with every other instance of Flutterlovin', it was going to have consequences. I mean, just a few paragraphs later, you'd have had the protag being brutally honest that he didn't love Fluttershy. And yet she'd just had a mind-blowing orgasm while making out with both of them. Can you see why I didn't include it? It would have felt mean. The protag, while by no means perfect, is better than that.
--In the first draft of chapter 3, Cashmere was going to reveal that she was the first pony Rarity had ever had sex with. While it may have made a good LE GASP scene, it would have also felt kinda cheesy and forced. So, it got dumped.
--When Slate first started to reveal that he hated the protag, he was going to flip his shit and try to murder our dear human right then and there with a piece of iron rebar, before escaping by flying away. Of course, it wouldn't have made sense for our beloved main characters to then show up at his home a little while later and snoop around, when they could have just run to the guards and been like "HOLY SHIT THAT GUY TRIED TO MURDER ME." Dropped.
--There was going to be a running gag about Quick Fix having a massive, extended family, which the protag would keep running into wherever he went. While funny, it would have been too distracting.
--After Cashmere stole borrowed the Aetherweave fabric design from Rarity, there was originally supposed to be one more chapter of Rarity getting payback. But really, at that point, it had dragged on long enough. And besides, I couldn't think of anything else for Rarity to do for payback. Thus, Fluttershy became the voice of reason and suggested that they simply talk it out like adults.
Not a deleted scene, but some of you may have noticed that there's a lot of detail paid to food when it's part of the story. This is partly because I'm an amateur (very amateur) chef who has always had a fascination with cooking, and partly because if I was forced to create *shudder* vegetarian dishes, I wanted to at least make them sound edible, what with ponies not eating meat and all.
On a similar note, I had it planned for the protagonist to visit a griffin restaurant at the outskirts of town to get a tasty steak, because let's be honest: Life without steak is not life worth living.
Steak, Liara. I fucking love steak.
I meant to include it somewhere, but sadly I just couldn't find a place to throw it in.
So yeah... I suppose that's that. If you've managed to stick around this long, the congratulations! You win 10 pony points. Please note that pony points cannot be redeemed. Anywhere.
Ultimately, I feel like my time with S&B has been one hell of an experience. Through the good and the bad, it's been there as my one constant. I have never written anything close the scale of S&B, and likely won't again. Any future works will definitely be shorter! But it's been fun. Terrifying, worrisome, stressful, even rage-inducing at times, but fun. I could retire from fanfics right here and now and be satisfied with what I've created...
...but I won't. There are too many ideas floating around in my head, and too many days until new episodes of pony.
So, until my next story is up, I will take my leave. Thank you, sincerely, to all of you who have stuck with me over all this time. I write for and because of you. If I met you in real life (provided you're of legal age) I'd take you down to my favorite Irish pub to have some drinks, talk about pony and vidya, and delight over a bowl of delicious shepherd's pie.
HUGS FOR THE HUG GOD!
Oh, and take care. See you all again soon!
-Dref
:3
Look at it this way with the length. a) It's not something as insanely long as Diaries of a Madman, clocking in at over 1.2m words and is incomplete, b) You can take pride in the fact that, even though S&B is a long story, it got a nice amount of attention. I decided to do a search by word count and found some that had like, 750k words and 300 views. I don't know about you, but if I was putting THAT much into a story and it got so little attention, I'd probably either rethink continuing it or figuring some way to garner more attention. While maybe the fics were just plain bad (though judging by the thumbs, most of them were overall positive), I couldn't imagine sinking so much time into something that big for almost nothing. It'd be like writing The Godfather only to have the critics treat it like Howard the Duck
I guess it sort of fits how Rarity would think in that respect. While we write because we enjoy it, just like she makes dresses because she enjoys it, hearing the praises of others always makes you feel like you really have done a good job, even if you already knew that to begin with.
Cheers, Dref.
Been with this story since day one, and I have to say I loved how it all turned out. It's been one of my top "I hope it updated today!!" stories in a while. Just have a few things to say to throw my two bits in.
I feel like the characterization of Rarity and Flutters was spot-on, and the quirks of the OCs were great. I have to admit, Cash is my guilty pleasure at this point. Love to hate her, but dammit is she awesome. Pipe was well implemented also. Every guy has that one buddy they can go to with just about anything and Pipe serves this purpose well for the Protagonist.
Also, the way you handled the inclusion of Flutters into RarityXProtag, was perfect. Speaking as someone who's been there, those type of arrangements never work out in a long term commitment sense, and are best left to Swinger couples/Circles and porn for the sake of porn.
One of my favorite aspects of this story was the amount of effort you put into describing the locales we haven't really been given detail in, and also introducing us to your own little slices of Equestria and the scenes with the winery were my favorite in that sense.
You might be expecting some form of constructive criticism, and II would be all about supplying it if you hadn't already deconstructed it yourself, I really feel I'd just be parroting most of the things you've said.
Can't wait to see what else you have in store for us, or if you decide to re-visit this universe at a later date.
It's been a hell of a ride.
- Lunar Brony
Congratulations on finishing this story. I Really did enjoy this and your OC were some of the more fleshed out and realistic ones I have seen. I agree with you that the biggest blight on the story was the Fluttershy stuff but even then they were good scenes and really carried some wonderfully heartwarming moments.
Wow, until you brought it up I did not notice the large gap in clop scenes at the end. Well done sir, I came for the clop but got so invested in the characters and romance that I completely forgot about it.
Whee. In before I recycle my own points by redundantly recycling my own points in a redundant manner.
As a story, no, as I've said before I think it does detract from it somewhat. As a writing experiment and a challenge, you'll have to be the judge there.
I also think it has the unfortunate consequence of turning others off the work before giving it a chance, since second person typically means shitty self-insert.
Worth mentioning: You'd also expect the whole interspecies thing to cause quite a bit of awkwardness during the 'act', at least for the first few times, though I don't recall this coming up in S&B. Particularly given the size difference at both ends of the scale (i.e. the princesses, or with a pony like Rarity as is the case here). Like trying to solve a horse-shaped fleshy rubik's cube.
Wait, I think this analogy is heading towards something horrible. HEY LOOK A DISTRACTION.
I first noticed this when going through the story from scratch to write the TV Tropes page. It's not so much the filler that I find a problem, since that breathing space is a welcome thing to have from time to time, but I think the core parts of the story could have been trimmed down.
But there are pluses to it as well, as you mention. I enjoy the extra time within the universe you've constructed, but exploring a universe isn't quite the same thing as telling a story, though obviously there is significant overlap.
Yeah, I felt this improved from earlier on in the story. And Rarity gives you a free pass to use "darling". Exploit that for all it's worth!
The story is rather front-loaded with them (probably a reflection of its roots), which I think can give a somewhat misleading impression. The amount of them per se isn't a problem, but the distribution is somewhat skewed. I liked that they became sparse however, and tended more towards a genuine reflection of a relationship. Not that I'm trying to imply they were forced before; their inclusion is far more natural than most other stories.
I think you can probably guess my opinion on this by now. You know, just in case you missed the fact that I wrote the entry for "Romantic Plot Tumour".
Another entry I recall writing was "Supreme Badass of Infinite Winsauce", but I can't seem to find it. Oh well, it'll turn up eventually.
I felt your Fluttershy was pretty good. The problem is that Fluttershy in the show is usually reacting to what others are saying/doing, whereas you're trying to explore her character by having the protagonist ask questions. It's a very different writing challenge.
You know, I remember wondering about this. At some points the story it's implied that Rarity is experienced with the field of romance, yet when she and the ol' protag get it on for the first time (because I'm evil and feel like destroying a heartwarming moment by referring to it in such terms) she also states that she hasn't done that before.
There isn't necessarily a contradiction there, but I do remember being confused about what precisely your intentions were about that.
We'll ba... wait. Sorry Dref, I'm not Manslayer's nymphomatic Shepard.
PS: Still love you even if I am crazy jealous over your writing ability. Still, when I rule the world with an iron fist, I can make you write what I want.
Hell because I'm so nice, I might even pay you for it. In pineapples. Because why not?
Okay, maybe I should have reworded it. But I was trying to keep her classy in such a situation. When she says she's "never done this before", what she meant was givin' a blowjob. I don't think it would have been as in-character for her to say "I'VE NEVER SUCKED A DICK."
To be blunt.
I fucking love pineapples. DEAL.
I don't think it's that complicated. You have part A and part B, and part A is inserted into part B. Repeat until finished.
Size isn't a matter, really. Ponies may not be as tall as humans, but when Rarity stands on her hind legs she's just short of the protag's height. So, size wise, everything should still work just as well as if they were the same species. At least, that's my headcanon.
*shrug*
1329390
Yeah, I gathered that much! No confusion over that.
What I meant is that I did end up confused over Rarity's character history, since the narrative seems to imply both experience and inexperience. On the other hand as seen through the flashbacks, she takes intimacy very seriously since it takes quite a while for them to go all the way.
Going by memory (don't shoot me if this is wrong), but was implied that Rarity and Cashmere were in a full on relationship (and from your comments above this was originally the case). Then it was later revealed that Rarity didn't want to take that last step, thus causing a breakdown in their relationship.
The way I read it is that after Cashmere, Rarity tried dating a few times but none really took off (especially Blueblood), and she wasn't seriously involved with anyone until the protagonist. So while she's no stranger to romance, there are, ah, a few things she's inexperienced with. [insert innuendo of your choice here]
It's not hugely important, just something that puzzled me. Maybe I'm just being dense over this. Meh.
1329396
I intentionally left Rarity's past love experience vague. Explicitly stating who she used to be involved with, aside from Cashmere, wouldn't have added anything to the story. Cash's history with her was important, so I touched on their would-be romance, but for anything else, intimate or otherwise, I left it blank.
1329398
I get you. Probably avoids pissing off certain readers who would become possessive over "their" Rarity too. Ah second person stories.
Hah, and don't fan fic authors love to phrase it almost just like that?
Fair enough. I guess hilarious interspecies awkwardness would also kind of undermine the tone you were going for.
Don't worry, I'm sure someone somewhere will write it.
Don't let me down internet!
1329401
HA! Ain't that the truth. Just add bad descriptions of anatomy and random bodily fluids, and you've got yerself a clopfic!
1329402
Nah, a clopfic also needs passionate and skilful dialogue like this first:
"Hello," Fluttershy smiled because apparently you can enunciate words by using facial gestures. "I think I love you."
Despite the fact that I had only just met this complete stranger and exchanged less than ten words with her, I knew I loved her.
"I love you too, random pony," I replied in a monotonous tone which I nevertheless knew would be eaten up as being inspired writing by ignorant teenagers.
Then we had sex.
Actually that's too self-aware. And with grammar that is of too high a quality. I tried to write it more realistically, but I got a jarring pain in my hands when I tried hitting the keys, which I think was them trying to send a signal.
Or maybe a sign of my hands becoming demonically possessed, which would be a real hassle.
I felt that after following this story for a while, getting a chapter without sex was fine. The romance and drama that grew between Rarity, Anon and the rest of the cast was what made this story great. As for the whole threesome thing.... I for one am glad that it never happened. The whole time I was reading, every single chance that it could come up I hopped that it wouldn't. I think it would have been REALLY hard to write the scenes afterwards and was afraid where it would take the story.
Now your world building skills are something I would like to address..... WITH APPLAUSE! When you created a new locale or one of your many OC's you would not only keep my attention, but make me want to know more about these places/ponies. Hell if you were to make some one-shots of just an OC instead of the mane 6 it would be great. Shameless Pipe Wrench plug is shameless.
TL;DR
Great work, enjoy a break. Thanks for your attention to detail and for that AJ story + Honeymoon chapter I hope to see!
1329407
Well, at least if your hands were possessed, you could cut them off and replace them with chainsaws. So look on the bright side!
Oh, and your summary was spot-on. It just needed a hundred or so typos and lots of EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!
1329410
Thanks! World building has always been a favorite of mine. And yeah, a threesome would have cheapened the story, I think. But it's still fun to think about.
1329419
High praise indeed, and a flying way to start my career as an author. Time to light the internet on fire with those writing skills! Look out for more bland and insipid dialogue coming to a screen near you!
It would have, which was why I'm glad it worked out the way it did. Short of it not being included in the first place, obviously.
Speaking of cheapening the story, because you've
stolen my wordsstolen my words, I know we share a similar opinion on sequels (which I consider further proof of us inexplicably being twins somehow greatly separated by temporal and geographical barriers), but what's your opinion on the possibility of writing a few side-stories?Or is there nothing much to tell there either?
(I know you want to move on to different projects, and I'm looking forward to that, I'm just interested to see if you consider it an option at this point)
Now I want to see cartoony supervillain Cashmere.
i wanna hug can i hug you i don't think i can hug you I WILL HUNT YOU DOWN AND HUG YOU . as i say nearly every comment i write about S&B best fanfic i have read i was happy to actually find a decent sized HIE romance fic with rarity that wasn't something over the top with him have something like nuclear gas if he farted end of the world it's about a guy trying to start a new life for himself thats why i like this story so much you have done an amazing job looking forward to seeing what your gonna do next
1329421
Don't think of it as stealing, think of it as...permanently borrowing.
As for side stories: eh, maybe? Hard to say. I have exactly zero ideas for side stories right now, but it's not impossible.
Do you have any ideas for a new story? Can we expect to see more from you?
Thanks for this. Some ideas were really horrible :D Hydra attack would be passable only if you introduced any treat like this in past chapters, like more guards in Ponyville since foot-prints were found near village and stuff like this ;)
About this story you mentioned though.... how the fuckitty-fuck, lovely story about rising a foal can end up in retarded Rarity stuffing herself only because her "love"(it ain't love when your man/woman is trying to change you and hurt you with such changes) wanted to fullfill sick fetishes?
About threesomes and such. Nothing can stop you. If you want, you can always give some short side, non-canon, stories. Ka-Blam! Fluttergasm all over the place and stuff.
Cashmere and guys broken pelvis.
1329479
(Jeez any more replies from me and this'll practically turn into a one-on-one conversation)
It was kind of funny to see how you really weren't kidding when you said you'd bring up every point I mentioned in my review. Aside from a few comments above, did we actually differ on anything? If so, nothing stood out.
Anyway, to go back to another comment above about scale/length and how you're planning to stay away from the long stuff, is this out of a pragmatic desire to finish stuff quicker, or was it because you were starting to get bored of such a large project?
Based on various comments, it does seem like S&B ran on for longer than intended and that you're sort of glad to be finished and so free from writing romance... at least for the time being!
Just curious, since something like a hypothetical action/adventure story would seem to lend itself more towards a longer work, if you chose to go down that path.
could'a put a "get meat in mah belly!" scene in a flash back with spike giving you a tour of 'that side of town' (then again so many people hated spike at the time I know I'm still one
)
And I love scenery porn! it's my one pet peeve on most (IF NOT ALL
) video games. I am damn fine makin' up a place in my own mind, you ask me any place in MlpFiM universe I will paint you a fuckin' masterpiece in words! go on FUCKIN' ASK ME! ASK ME!
(namely the kiss with flutters but whatever.). ask me!
please.
ask me.
^^^highlight^^this^^area^^with^^your^^mouse^^^
any who that's all I wanted to put in (IF I would change the plot at one point it'd be at the Frostvalley Meadows part
*edit*
Ps you should look at the new friend the CMC find in the comic V
gave me an idea or two for a story if ever i wanna start it back up again... maaaaybe
I don't have a whole lot to say, but I think "Thank you for writing this" sums up my feelings well. Your story has been greatly entertaining and a huge source of inspiration for me trying to develop a realistic relationship in my own story.
Though I do have one major complaint: why didn't you put one last sex scene in near the end?! A slow, caring one to help close the story as their wedding approaches!
But anyway. Thank you!
PS I'm sorry for getting your name wrong for the last year. The name is NOT Dresfab. The name is NOT Dresfab. The name is NOT Dresfab...
PPS All of us who collected 10 Pony Points should pool our resources into a GPO and buy up ALL the nothing!
I don't really have much more to add to what's already been said, so I'll just say I fucking loved S&B and can't wait for more of your work
I can't clop to this wall of text ._.
1329485
Of course! With any luck I'll have a new story up in a week or two.
1329488
Death by snoo-snoo is a good death.
1329495
I can see your point. It COULD lend itself to a long story, but I'm trying to keep it relatively short. We'll see how it goes.
Also, you don't have to fight your love for me. I can feel it radiating from you. Embrace it.
1329761
Because I didn't think we needed a sex scene. Ending the story on an optimistic, purely romantic note seemed to be the best idea. Besides, I kind of liked how the last sex scene in the story was a flashback to the first time they had sex. Poetic, and all that.
1329790
1329830
THEN TRY HARDER, DAMNIT.
1331532
Aye, I guess we'll have to see. New writing challenge: write the next Lord of the Rings in 2000 words. Go!
It's a very manly and platonic love that mostly manifests itself as the online equivalent of nods and other stoic behaviour, with the occasional bout of writing-induced gushing. No embracing of anything, metaphorical or otherwise, alas.
*nods stoically and in a very manly fashion*
1331532
But... you would have been getting back to your roots, or something like tnat. Begin with the clop, end with the clop!
I actually understand completely. You don't need to put everything in every story, and if it really isn't needed, then it's probably better to leave it out. I think S&B was fine without clop at the end because I agree that it wouldn't really have done anything except extend the length by delaying natural plot progression.
However, I expect double the clop in your next story to make up for it!
Boy, did I hate Cashmere. Like, to the point that as she appeared more and more towards the end of the story, I wanted to read it less and less. Ironically for a second-person perspective story, she was the one that seemed the most like a mary-sue self-insert. Always showing up like a Scooby-Doo villian "It was really me! Gotcha again, babe!" Never at a loss for words, and always ready with innuendo thicker than my....bookshelf.
I liked your story, but I never want to read that character again.
1333726
You know, in the year and a half this story has been around, I think you may be literally the first person to actively despise Cashmere. Considering I'm not a woman it's not a self-insert, and the phrase "Mary Sue" is thrown around so often these days that it's become meaningless. Do you even know what Mary Sue means? Do you have the slightest hint? Because I am having a really, really hard time seeing how anyone can misconstrue Cashmere as a Mary Sue.
Hell, she was my favorite character to write for, just because her dialog could be so different, and judging by the feedback I've received, she's very much a fan favorite.
I suppose if I ever write a Cashmere side story, I'll know who to avoid telling about it.
1334155
Yikes, that's a serious reaction. I suppose it could be construed that I was somehow dismissive of your story, but that isn't the case. I really enjoyed it, and I thought your characterizations were remarkably true-to-form. Fanfiction being what it is, there is no 100% accuracy possible, but your Rarity was one of the best I think I have ever read.
That being said, for me anyways, Cashmere went from "oh, that's interesting" to "gosh what a bitch" to "grrr I love to hate you" as expected of good writing. Where she didn't resonate for me was that her menace was almost omnipresent. I started to feel like she was just waiting off-screen, ready to pop out at any moment with a snarky barb, or vicious slander, while Rarity sputters helplessly and the protag shakes his fist. (This is a dramatic reenactment)
So as time went on in this story, and the fighting became the focus, it was mentally draining for me to put myself in the protag's shoes and think 'yup, I would totally put up with this' So, good job, I guess? Is it a crime to empathize with your characters to the point that I hate your other one? I really must stand guilty. You're an accessory, though.
1334386
Given that your post was so strongly worded, you shouldn't be surprised when you receive a strongly worded reply. Saying you hate a character (and not in the "I love to hate" sort of way) and throwing out the whole Mary Sue accusation is quite the thing to say.
As for the Rarity/Cashmere conflict, which is the basis of the story, I wanted Rarity to deal with Cashmere mostly on her own, not diminish her and have the protag be some sort of "well hey, I have a simple solution to this complex situation!" douchebag that pops up so commonly in this sort of story.
1334426
Fair enough. I suppose I could have made myself more clear. The 'mary-sue' comment was not an accusation, but rather I was struggling for a quick metaphor for how much Cashmere influenced the story from point of entry. Not in the 'This is the primary conflict' fashion, but even the atmosphere. It created a very realistic suffocating feeling, and the paranoia just escalates. "Oh hey, going to cause your financial ruin." "Hey, got your secret dress fabric" "Hey, I've been spreading lots of rumors about you around town"
You are entitled to be defensive of your work, and I apologize for any insult.
Edit: Mis-remembered plot point.
1334457
Apology accepted. For my part, I apologize for jumping down your throat. Now I see what you were getting at. A feeling of paranoia about Cash ruining Rarity somehow, somewhere, is a pretty good way to describe it.
So, it's been a long time since I wrote this, and since I've recently linked it to the end of my story I'll probably get some new views on it. Don't have much to add to what's already been said, other than the fact that the whole "stories will be shorter in the future" bit was a blatant lie. Just Before the Dawn is approaching 200,000 words and is a while from being finished. But hey, at least the chapters are shorter.
Have any questions or issues with S&B, or just want to say hi? Feel free to drop me a message. I'm on here every day.
See you find ponyfolk around.
Rarity is still best pone.
I will hold onto my 10 pony points with great fondness.
I really appreciate you sharing your process with us, it's not often that readers get some insight into an author's methods to their madness. Since I'm looking to eventually write my own story, I find reading stories and postmortems like yours a great help for when I'm ready to move past simple notes and put pen to paper (keyboard to screen, whatever).
I have a story idea that actually may turn out to be a long work such as S&B, but may look to focus on smaller scale stories or simple one-shots just to test the waters so I can give proper skill to the epic weight of the larger work I want to write.
Don't have much to add to what's already been said, other than the fact that the whole "stories will be shorter in the future" bit was a blatant lie. Just Before the Dawn is approaching 200,000 words and is a while from being finished. But hey, at least the chapters are shorter.
BAHAHAHAHAHA!
You magnificent bastard! Do you attend any MLP conventions by chance? I would really like to meet you in person one of these days. 
So, uh, recently finished S&B, came to check this out, noticed one thing in particular:
Oh yeah? How's that going for ya?
But yeah, S&B was great, and I'm gonna direct my attention towards your other totally-not-ridiculously-long story.
And HtFRNN, cos MAH GAWD, you write "Everyone", too?