109 - A Song of Old Times
"Why are you following me?" asked Lex as he prowled through the train. He had been looking for an empty car where he could relax, but Sonata had trotted after him regardless of where he went.
"Because you're lonely," said Sonata with a smile. "You look like one of my sisters, so I thought I'd come cheer you up!"
Rounding on her, Lex was about to tell her just how much her "cheering up" was irritating him, when he paused at the sight of her. She hadn't even bothered to change out of her swimsuit, and Lex suddenly recalled the scene from less than an hour ago. "Who can blame a guy for finding this attractive?" she said, lightly shaking her bottom. "I don't need cheering up," muttered Lex petulantly, trying to fight down a blush at the memory, "and you have nothing I'm interested in."
Sonata shook her head, "Aw, don't say that, I have lots of things. We could talk. What do you like doing?" She pointed at him, "Tell me about you, I'm all ears."
He almost shot back that she didn't have any ears, at least not obviously, but even he knew that was childish. "I prefer to talk about my work. Nopony would find my life story interesting."
"Pretty sure I do," replied Sonata with a grin, "Go on. I'm listening."
Sighing, Lex looked around, finding a car that was empty but for the two of them. Settling into a seat, he watched her do the same. Again, the memory of her unabashed jiggling came to him, and he tried to keep his eyes from sliding down her body. He glanced out the window, suddenly feeling terribly self-conscious. "...I don't know. This was your idea. You start."
Sonata tapped her chin, "Well, OK. You see, I was born in Equestria, a long way long time ago." She made some dramatic motions with her hooves to emphasize the length of time, sitting on her haunches, "Me and my sisters, we weren't really sisters, would go around and sing at ponies and they'd do what we wanted. It was pretty sweet."
Lex frowned at her, "You were little more than a blight on ponykind then?"
Sonata shrugged softly, "Yeah, kinda... This pony with a big beard and stars and stuff on his robes sent us off to this icky world of humans!"
Lex's frown turned slightly incredulous, "Star-Swirl the Bearded?" How old was this mare?
Sonata bobbed her head, "That's the one! I knew it was on the tip of my tongue. So anyway, I'll skip some of the boring stuff. Me and my sisters ended up here and they were ragging on me, as usual, when Twilight's friends showed up. They were way nicer and I joined them instead. We've been having tons of fun!"
Lex shook his head then, "I heard you were sentenced for crimes against the state. How does that fit in?"
Sonata rolled her eyes, "Well I was kinda there when my sisters started trouble. I mean I totally said sorry! I even helped take them out, but, like, the Queen said I still had to do community service." She sagged a little, "Totally the worst, but," she perked up a little, "Then Twilight showed up, and I met you too." She pointed at him, "Your turn."
Lex sulked for a moment at her pronouncement. He stared at her for several moments, trying to divine her intent behind all of this. But doing so proved absolutely futile, with nothing about her giving away any clues that he was able to discern. "Fine," he sighed.
"I too was born a long time ago in Equestria. Just over a millenium, in fact." He paused, as though having to actually make an effort to retrieve such far-flung memories. "Even as a foal, I was different from the other ponies. While they were content with insipid games and meaningless trivia, I was far more interested in learning all I could about the world around me. I wanted nothing to do with them, nor they with me."
He turned his gaze towards the window again, but his eyes were fixed firmly on the past. Even after all this time, he could still remember quite clearly the frustration and bitterness he felt, not just at being excluded, but also at not knowing why. He knew that he'd done something to drive everypony away from him, but no matter how hard he'd tried, no matter what logs he'd kept or experiments he'd run, he'd never figured out what it was that had so consistently repelled everypony else.
"Eventually, I was admitted to Celestia's School for Gifted Unicorns. I had thought that at last I'd be among peers who shared my drive to learn, to understand why everything about Equestria was the way it was. You can imagine my disappointment when I found out the truth: that I'd simply traded one group of empty-headed foals for another. All of them were content simply to soak up whatever scraps of knowledge were thrown their way, without questioning or challenging or building upon anything they'd learned," he growled, his disdain fully apparent.
Those had been the worst days of his life. At least his parents had been there to soothe the harshness of his classmates' rejection when he'd gone to the local schoolhouse. At Celestia's School, he'd had to board, and the memory of being utterly alone, a pariah that was utterly despised by the students and teachers alike, regardless of his top marks, was something that he'd never forgotten.
"Eventually, I realized that I was better off teaching myself, and I withdrew from that so-called institution of 'higher learning' to chart my own course. I was right to do so," he smirked, "as without their institutional traditions holding me back, I was able to make many strides forward, not just in magical applications, but in many philosophical disciplines as well." Dropping out of school was a decision that he'd never regretted. Despite his parents' concerns, he'd never been more content than when he was shut away in his room or in the basement, writing down new theories and notes.
He paused for a long moment, savoring one of the less-unhappy times in his life, before glancing back at Sonata, wary of her reaction so far.
Sonata was listening intently, bobbing her head until he stopped talking. "Way harsh. See, I knew we were alike. Other ponies coming down on us for no good reason." She advanced on him and raised a hoof in a friendly fashion, "It's cool now! You taught yourself magic? That's kinda cool... I guess I did that too? I mean, nobody taught me my magic, it just, you know, comes to me? Watch this!"
She backed away and waited for the next pony to come along. She stepped in front of the mare, "When you open the door to the next car, you'll remember you have to go to the bathroom, like, totally really bad." She then scooted out of the way.
The mare blinked softly in confusion, then proceeded to the next car. When she slid her hoof into the slot to open the door, she paused. She looked around quickly, then dashed off in an awkward prance back to her room.
"How droll," Lex smirked, for once it lacked its usual cutting edge. Her magic was petty, befitting somepony that seemed so empty-headed, but still... her sympathetic demeanor was a not-unpleasant change of pace, presuming she was genuine.
Waiting for her to settle back down, he surprised himself by continuing. "Eventually, I reached the limits of what resources I had, and I set out to find additional materials to further my research..." he trailed off with a frown. This was the part where he'd need to be careful what he said. Revealing that the new magic he'd pioneered was still unfinished, still deeply flawed wouldn't do. Not unless he was completely and utterly sure he could trust Sonata...and he'd never once met a pony, or any other being, that warranted that level of regard.
Skipping over that point, he instead jumped ahead. "Eventually, I went to the Crystal Empire, hoping to study their Crystal Heart. But by the time I got there, that lunatic named Sombra had taken over. By the time I'd realized what was going on, Celestia and Luna had shown up. I admit, I expected them to make short work of him. What I didn't expect was that they'd bungle the job so bad that the entirety of the Empire would be sealed away with him, along with everypony inside it." His eyes narrowed, again glaring at his memories. "Along with me."
A long moment passed before he continued. "When I came to, things were chaotic and uncertain. In hindsight, what I witnessed were bits and pieces of the events that led to Sombra's final defeat, but I didn't know what was happening at the time; venturing outward to gather the facts on my own seemed unwise."
He paused again, but this time his tension was visible. He looked back at Sonata, his gaze wrathful, but it wasn't directed at her. "Can you imagine? Can you imagine finding out that I'd been cast a thousand years into the future? A thousand years... and Equestria had not changed at all." His teeth ground, and he stood up, pacing the empty car in agitation.
"Nothing. Nothing! Nothing had changed! No new advances in any field! No new sciences, or magic, or anything! The future was just an extended version of the present, with the barest of details changed. That was when I knew..." he trailed off, lost in his own thoughts.
Sonata nodded her head firmly, "I can totally imagine that! I mean, that's kinda what happened. I haven't been to Equestria in, since, forever!" She glanced left and right, "So why don't we find out together? Once Twilight has that thingie working to get us home, we can go back to Equestria." She made a looping motion of her hoof, "I bet we could make a real splash. Think of the fun we could have! No Sombras or mean sisters or banishments. Just two ponies living the life."
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Hey, another update.
Hey, Twilight makes the action I hoped she wouldn't by screwing her friend casually after a gender-swap spell, which I think flies in the face of any non-pornographic portrayal of her. It doesn't seem like something that Twilight would not take seriously, like she has here.
Like, I can see Dash accepting this fairly easily. I could see Pinkie doing it fairly easily, too. But I just don't think Twilight wouldn't take what she did seriously, not without more exploration of her character on this topic or like some kind of... notification that the norm is of casual sex.
5721892 You can imagine Rainbow going with it, but you can't imagine Rainbow coercing Twilight into it? I'm a bit restrained by the rating and tone to not go into heavy details in how she goes about corrupting Twilight into doing the deed, but I did try to heavily imply this was all Dash's initiative, and one Twilight feels pretty... awkward at best... about even after the fact.
Twilight does not approve.
Rainbow does.
Applejack is properly shamed.
That entire line should be italicized, as it's a memory.
That last "nothing" should also be in italics.
5721911 Tweaked!
Well, I'd say Applejack owes Twilight a fairly huge favor. Still, it seems to have worked, though it remains to be seen if Dash's good mood will persist.
Lex's backstory disproves several of my hypotheses. It's kind of sad that he never seemed to consider that his attitude was the repellent force.
Really? No changes whatsoever? A millennium of stasis? I find that hard to swallow. At the very least, the language changed, given the loss of the you/thou distinction. Also, at least one fairly important town was founded.
Eh, that part's pure headcanon; no sense in objecting to it. Furthermore, I don't know how thoroughly Lex investigated the matter. Did he see the skyscrapers of Manehattan? The railroad network? The air yachts? (Really, he should be thankful that the world was still recognizable.)
Typo detected:
You and she. I don't normally comment on grammar in dialogue, but it is Twilight.
5721902
Ah... it seemed like Twilight thinks this is slightly awkward... but that's mostly because she just has this very muted reaction. I guess, rereading it, she could be completely uncomfortable and consider it unacceptable but could be trying not to go ballistic and fall apart about it, too...
Yeah, you definitely can't get into the details about it with this tone, that's true.
Hmn... well I guess I get to wait to see what comes next.
5721937 Fixed!
5721902 I think what RadicalDishonesty means is that this is a game-changer for the existing relationships, at least so far as Twilight is concerned. Rainbow is the sort of pony who can have casual sex without becoming tripped up about "what it meant for us." Twilight, on the other hand, is the sort that would obsess over something like that - all the more so for the fact that she did it as a male.
Simply put, it'd be awkward - to the point of feeling out-of-character - if we didn't see Twilight struggling to figure out how to act around Rainbow now, as well as what it meant for herself that she had her first time as a male and (apparently) enjoyed it. It doesn't have to be a big deal that alters the trajectory of the story, but I can't see her not trying to "figure it out," at least until Rainbow (and maybe AJ) set her "straight" (pun intended).
5721943 She was flopped on the ground, hiding behind her hooves, and needed a shower to wash off the unclean feeling. What more can she do without actually screaming at Applejack and ejecting her harshly into the hallway?
5721954
Yeah... It seems I read this missing the severity it indicated, leaving it to jump to conclusions that Twilight was okay with it (or just mildly annoyed) just because it happened and she didn't have a cataclysmic reaction. Sorry about that.
5721953 That is entirely legitimate. I will try to keep that in mind.
5721937 If you believe the comics (and read too much into some of them), ponies steal all their technology from humans through mirror portals, and Starswirl made Celestia promise to stop using them when he died because it was breaking the world.
Another possibility... having a 1000-year dark age after the Lunar Rebellion isn't entirely unlikely either. The wide tracts of wilderness between Equestrian cities made me think of a post-apocalyptic society just starting to recover.
5721937 There's nothing to suggest that Equestria has changed in a very, very long time. We've seen very little of the past, but there's little evidence that any of the more technological aspects of Equestria (such as the train, or the electrical-powered items) are particularly new.
There have been a few changes, to be sure, but they're minor. A new tiny town here? A slight tweak to the language there? Okay, but is that substantive at all, really?
This isn't too unbelievable, given that there's no real drive to change some underlying condition that we've seen. When your society is idyllic, what impetus is there to alter it in any noteworthy way? Even in the real world, which has plenty of reasons for people to want to change it, there have been long periods where things didn't change very much. How was Europe really that different from 300 AD to 1300 AD? (I just know the history majors will start to pop up in full force now
.)
My apologies in advance for dragging this out.
5721993
But Equestria's tech level isn't at 1300 AD. It is, at minimum, 1900 AD, when things really got interesting. By your own logic, we should be comparing that time to 900 AD, and that difference is much more stark. The cultural forces of that time would, in turn imply a rate of progress far different than a random year in the Middle Ages.
Furthermore, the absence of evidence cuts both ways. We really don't know how old any Equestrian technologies are, which means they could support either side of the argument. Heck, we may have evidence of refinements in aeronautics over the course of a few years, from this to this.
Finally, consider one of the indirect glimpses we do get into the past: "Luna Eclipsed." Luna's actions are exactly what you'd expect from a mare displaced a thousand years in time, unfamiliar with virtually everything from modern social customs to the concept of fun.
If you'd like to continue this argument, we should probably move it to PMs.
5721981
Now that? That I could buy. A dip and rise makes much more sense than a flat line; societies don't do stasis. At least, not without the kind of oppression that Celestia wouldn't exercise.
5721993
No history major here, but 300 DC we're talking about Rome at height of power, 1300 is nearing the end of the middle ages. If anything 300 was way better in almost every way.
About Twilight, to me it seemed she did react kinda mildly... But considering it sounded line she was a virgin (nota only as a male, but completely) it does seem reasonable she'd be divided between "sex rules!!!", "the hell AJ, that was my first time!!" and "I feel dirty, bad and I need a bath". Not to mention " what the hell is my sexual orientation now?!?"
and this is why I dont create RPGs, write stories, or otherwise attempt creative efforts. It doesnt really impinge on me that Im being ignored etc. I bring up something, nothings mentined, so I put it away or mess a bit more with it, and then repeat the actions again and again.
Given Twilighs spell only lasted ten minutes, its a good thing that all members of the party involved were quick on the action. Thoug I wonder if Twilights going to get a sad etter from Pinkie about not being there to help with the party.
Wonder if Sonata is aiming for a Luther to help her scrub her back?
5722150 I feel like I've failed in some large way. How should Twilight behave to show that she's in a very emotionally uncertain place and that she needs a moment to figure out how anything fits into anything else anymore?
5721981
And have you noticed, aside from Ponyville itself, virtually every single sity we've seen has been in a very defensible location?
Canterlot - Mountain top. Perfect for dropping rocks and things on invaders.
Cloudsdale - Made of clouds. Less rocks, but better for dropping things in general.
Crystal Empire - Comes with a built-in city-wide shield and anti-cold field, surrounded by icy wastes to make things difficult for attackers.
It's clear that ponies consider defense quite a lot when building cities (and given the dragons, hydras, etc. that inhabit their world, that seems fairly sensible).
5721937
I broadly agree with what you're saying. But I'm going to interpret Lex's statements as being twisted by his myopia. He's not as objective an observer as he thinks he is, and he's far from correct. Canterlot's architecture alone could put off someone looking for signs of modernity, not to mention the state of the countryside.
5721993
For one thing, mouldboard ploughs and horse collars were invented or imported into Europe during that millenium. This meant that parts of the continent that were considered beyond the pale of real civilzation in 300 AD, including the British Isles, Scandinavia, the North European Plain, and Russia could be intensely cultivated and host powerful states by 1300. During that millenium, windmills developed from a scattered curiosity into a practical form of power generation and land reclamation. Gunpowder was introduced during the tail-end of this period. This is basic, undergrad-level stuff that just speaks to some of the technology without touching the social upheavals of the period. Any actual medievalist would be able to tell you a lot more.
But the starting point of your argument is flawed. Medieval Europe (which period, as pointed out by Neece, supra, actually started quite a bit later than 300) did not stagnate. It experienced a couple big social shocks (collapse of the Empire, plague), a lot of wars and invasions, and long periods that combined redevelopment with innovation.
As for Equestria, its most advanced sectors are pretty clearly situated around the turn of the twentieth century. Ponyville has a hydroelectric dam. Manehattan has a telephone network, and a telephone monopoly comparable to period AT&T if its phone designs are anything to go by. It also has a number of suspension bridges that are much more advanced than the one that serves the Castle of the Two Sisters. Twilight knows the equations that describe time dilation in special relativity, and owns (or owned; Tirek blew it up) an electroencephalograph. Rarity owns a sewing machine; even if it's powered by magic, the design is still sophisticated. What's more, she ropes the others into a Triangle-esque sweatshop at one point, so industrialism isn't unknown either. The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 is presented as newfangled (an aside: that episode's direct influences, John Henry and The Music Man, are quintessentially modern stories). The rail transit system serves most of the big population centers. Airships are a thing.
Moreover, there is definitely evidence that at least some of these things weren't around a millenium ago. The Castle of the Two Sisters was clearly not served by rail, which would have required at least a stone (and possibly a concrete or steel) bridge over the Tree of Harmony's grotto, but pipe organs were definitely around in 900 AD. The Crystal Empire was definitely not served by rail a thousand years ago; the station is far away from the city, which would make sense if it was built after the city's disappearance and without knowledge of its precise location, in anticipation of its return. Moreover, it is made of wood, not crystal, indicating that it was not a period construction. Scorchero isn't served by rail even now, indicating that the network still has room to grow. Neither Scorchero nor the Crystal Empire is electrified the way Manehattan is. Speaking of Manehattan, a lot of these innovations seem concentrated in the cities, and haven't diffused to most of the country yet for whatever reason. Overall, I'd characterize Equestrian development as along the lines of Russia's before 1914: there were some very modern developments in a few of the big cities, a developing rail network and some burgeoning infrastructure projects in the provinces, along with ongoing internal colonization (see, e.g., Ponyville, Appleloosa), but nothing like the crash industrialization or rural electrification of the '20s and '30s.
I'd like to examine The Journal of the Two Sisters for further evidence, since that's the most complete look we've gotten into the distant past of Equestria, but I'm away from home at the moment. I'll post what I find later.
5722222
To add to the list, Manehattan's an island. And now that I've said those words I wonder if there's an Equestrian Woody Guthrie who runs into Cheese Sandwich every now and again on their travels.
5722222 Hee! And Manehattan is entirely located on the island, instead of being like New York City where most of the city is on the surrounding flatlands.
Well... I didn't care for this "Lashtada" chapter we had going in this one at all, when I see the adventure and crossover tag I expect adventure and crossover, romance to an absolute minimum, now we have Spike and Soft Mane, Rarity and Paladin dude, what'll probably turn out to be a love triangle, and some hints of friggin LEX! getting romanced with whats-her-face!!! I'm getting seriously sick of this stuff.
Sigh, but that's my only gripe so far, but it's a big one for me personally.
5722331
I get the impression that Manehattan Island is bigger than Manhattan Island. Hooflyn is presented in the comics as a neighborhood on the island, for example. For me, Manehattan Island is more or less Manhattan + Long Island - the East River.
5722343 I'm... not sure I can roll with this? The tags on a story are not meant to be a straight jacket, unless I have severely misunderstood their purpose? They denote the primary themes of a story, not their only one. This fic broke 200k words. 3 romances, none of which are touched on for very long, is doing pretty good? The only couple that's really gotten some screen time is Soft Mane + Spike, and their clumsy romance surely hasn't come at the expense of the action.
5722354 I s'pose you're right, I still don't care for it too much, but I guess I can suck it up, it just kinda bums me up that I got to this point and it's starting to... degrade in my opinion over this silly thing.
5722166
I think you didn't fail. She's quite clearly too tired/overwhelmed to think straight right now, and is too certain of their friendship to feel betrayed.
If anything, you were succesful. This many views of the same scene shows that her confusion is quite warranted, and maybe enven clear to US in some contrieved maner.
How she acted imediately after is nota as important as how she'll act now. That, my friend, is how this romance ball is probably gonna roll.
5722234
Damn o.o
I did know that the middle ages started latter than that, but not about sais advances. Thank you for that ^^
5722114
5722234
*sighs* I knew the history analogy was going to be a problem. I'll concede that the analogy itself may be flawed (though perhaps I should have pointed to the difference in civilization in North America between 300 AD and 1300 AD as a better example), but the underlying point still stands.
Hence, I'm abandoning the analogy - people seem to be thinking that I'm comparing the technology of present-day Equestria to that of medieval Europe, which wasn't my point. My point was to show that it's entirely feasible that a society can stand still (at a technological level) for centuries, regardless of its current level of progress. What ushers in new ideas and underlies their widespread adoption is some level of dissatisfaction with how things currently are (or something foreign being imported in bulk for the first time). Given the idyllic nature of Equestria, that's clearly not the case. Nopony really seems to view Equestria as having some sort of widespread problem that needs to be fixed, or otherwise wants to improve things very much.
The issue with the Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000 underlines this point, rather than contradicting it. Nopony looks at it and says "wow, this would really revolutionize the cider industry!" Instead, it's treated as a Rube Goldberg device that garners no attention for how it does what it can, or if it can be mass-produced. Indeed, when we next see Flim and Flam, they've apparently abandoned the device, and nopony is even mildly curious about it. That's the perfect example of a society that's standing still, apparently because even the people who directly stand to benefit from such an advance (the Apple family, or the ponies who want more cider) don't care about it - they're fine with how things are now.
My argument wasn't flawed - the analogy was flawed, which isn't the same thing. There's nothing to suggest that anything you mentioned here happened in Equestria. Moreover, you're discussing major incidents, rather than long-lasting changes to the entire fabric of society. Put someone down in a random spot in Europe in 300 AD, and another in 1300 AD, and there's a very good chance that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, because everyday life wouldn't have changed that much. That was my point - if that's not the case for that particular thousand-year period in that particular location, then that doesn't mean the point itself falls apart; it just means you need to look at a different thousand-year period in a particular area where no particularly substantive changes happened. You don't have to go too far back or too far afield to find those.
This is the hardest point to prove, and where I disagree with you.
That's a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument. Just because we don't see any abandoned rails going to the Castle of the Two Sisters now does not mean that there were no rails then. It's entirely feasible that a rail existed then, and was simply removed when Celestia abandoned the castle; that's doubly true for the Crystal Empire, since having a track that goes nowhere anymore is a waste of materials.
That the rail we see in Return of the Crystal Empire is so far away from the city doesn't mean very much - it's just as plausible that the rail was built immediately by order of Princess Celestia in anticipation of sending Twilight and her friends there (after all, Shining Armor and Cadance have apparently already been there for a little while), and that that was as close as the builders could get without being at risk of Sombra's wrath.
Probably for the same reason a family of apple farmers don't care about a device that could revolutionize the process of picking apples; if there's no demand, there's no supply, regardless of how good the product is.
Yes, it does, which is why the best thing to do in that situation is follow Occam's Razor, and go with the explanation that makes the fewest assumptions. There's nothing to indicate that Equestria has undergone any major technological (or other) revolution, and so I don't assume that there must have been one "just because."
That's the biggest reason to presume that Equestria has stood still: because there's absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise. "But that's not 'realistic' (in terms of comparing it to Earth)" is not a valid counterargument in this regard.
I wish I hadn't introduced the real-world comparison; it comes with the mental baggage that circumstances surrounding whatever real time and place must be the same circumstances for Equestria. That's my fault for opening up that particular can of worms.
I wouldn't recommend it. The journal is not a trustworthy resource, for myriad reasons.
5721937 I'd love to know what your hypotheses about Lex were!
5722534
It is conceivable that technology and society can stagnate in civilizations, but this is never observed. The Amerindian example is just as bad as the European, but for different reasons. Here, more or less the same development of technology is observed at different times, but this does not indicate stagnation. Mesoamerica saw the rise and fall of several civilizations during that period, some of which developed further than others. The Mississippian cultures developed and then abandoned sophisticated building techniques, but by the end of the period were using a different food package than they were at the beginning. Looking at some arbitrary points on a timeline and ignoring everything else doesn't tell you very much. Besides, the whole concept is problematic. There are other examples that people who want to find examples of "stagnant societies" trot out. Each ignores history and each was used to justify colonialism.
Your theory of history fails to explain technological and social changes. The introduction of mechanization in England was, far from addressing widespread dissatisfaction, broadly unpopular and heavily contested; the people advocating mechanization won out anyway. The people advocating it weren't attempting to change society either. They were pretty happy with society as it was. They just wanted to make more money within society. Society changed nevertheless. "Events have their own logic, even if [ponies] do not." Revolutionaries do not make revolutions. Besides, and I say this knowing full well that technological determinism is not a complete picture, we know what societies capable of turn-of-the-century technology look like, and we know that the technologies themselves wreak predictable changes on society.
The case of the Flim Flam brothers does illustrate this, and also illustrates that the brothers did everything wrong when it came to introducing a new technology. Like the proponents of mechanization above, they weren't out to change the industry, they were there to make a quick buck. And that wasn't considered a problem. The Apples were okay with supplying them with apples at first. Ponies rather liked the explosion in supply. But anyone who might have been interested in the device was put off by their naked hucksterism and their stupid self-sabotage. The same Apples that were okay with supplying apples were not okay with giving up their farm in the bet the brothers proposed. The same ponies who were okay with more cider didn't like the stuff that came out after the quality control was turned off (an aside: as in the John Henry story, the machine with quality control on was slower than the workers going full-out; unlike in the John Henry story, the workers survived to continue out-competing the machine). Finally, even if someone did want to study the device to maybe make it faster even with quality control on (another aside: its function is explained more fully than just about any other device on the show), the brothers took it with them when they left. Maybe they used it again, maybe they didn't. It would surely be idiotic to try the same scam in Ponyville twice. All that said, the case of the Flim Flam brothers is not the extent of the Apples' relationship to innovation, modernity, and entrepreneurship. The relationship they maintained with Barnyard Bargains helped the chain grow from nothing to something that looks rather more advanced than the turn-of-the-century innovation in retail, the department store, over a hundred or so years.
Now I'm going to turn to the archaeological arguments.
Your rebuttal of my argument about the Castle of the Two Sisters puts words in my mouth. I said nothing about rails. Rails, ties, spikes, all those could corrode or be overgrown over the course of a thousand years. What the tableau really lacks is a bridge over the gorge. In order to run to the castle, a train would need something more substantial than the rickety wooden suspension bridge that is actually there. Anything more substantial would leave debris behind even if it collapsed, and depending on how it was built, it might not have collapsed in the first place. A stone or concrete bridge would be more likely to last and leave more substantial debris than, say, steel. Running a train up to the gorge and then having it stop without crossing doesn't make sense either. Railheads are more complex than the track simply coming to an end; at the very least you need to be able to decouple and rearrange the rolling stock, and you might want to be able to turn it around. Putting a railhead, as opposed to a single track, there would require clearing the land, and clearing the Everfree is not an easy task without the Elements in the Tree of Harmony.
Your argument that the rail to the Crystal Empire could have been built recently works for my argument, which is precisely that the rail to the Crystal Empire was built recently and was not in place a thousand years ago. There is other evidence, in the form of the layout of the city itself. It is very obviously a planned city, even more park-like in conception than Washington, D.C. So why, if it was served by rail a thousand years ago, was it not planned around it? We know how cities that grow up around rail develop, and we know how cities that have rail introduced later react. The Crystal Empire, to continue the comparison to Washington, D. C., has no equivalent of Union Station in the city limits. There is no space for tracks to run within the city. There is none of the sorting-out of land uses one finds around train tracks even absent zoning, with homes far away from the dirty, noisy, smelly, and dangerous train. There is, again, no railhead. Even the modern track keeps running beyond the Crystal Empire station, as seen in Just for Sidekicks and Equestria Girls. They might not have wanted to be served by rail a thousand years ago, but the ponies who live there now are the same ponies who lived there then, and they don't seem to have a problem with it. They go so far as to run their own crystal locomotive that looks reminiscent of the Twentieth Century Limited. The presence of this locomotive is extremely interesting. It doesn't make sense for it to predate the disappearance of the Empire. If it was old, it had to have been made to run on a track. But the track doesn't run in the city. So it would run on a track outside the city. But in order to disappear with the Empire, it would have had to have been stored in the city. Why, then, would it be stored in the city where it could not be used? Where?. None of the buildings, except the palace which is on stilts, seems big enough to hold it, let alone it and a bunch of other rolling stock. If trains were around a thousand years ago but the Empire was not served by them, why would it have a locomotive in the first place? Ornamentation? It's a crystal city, they don't need no steeking ornamentation. No, the only explanation is that the locomotive is new. The crystal ponies adopted a technology they had not been using before.
There's other evidence that technology in Equestria develops besides the bits I could think of in my first post. Why would Fluttershy have a disdain for sewing machines if they'd been around for a thousand years? She clearly has no disdain for woven, as opposed to knitted or felted, fabric, and you can't weave without looms. The Wonderbolt uniforms Rarity shows evolve from something that would't be out of place in the eighteenth century to beyond the twentieth century. That's more than simple fashion; the weaving and dying techniques that are used to make fabric and the tailoring techniques used to make clothes in the eighteenth century are different from those used now (though Rarity probably eschewed them for modern methods).
Finally, the whole argument that Equestria is static depends on the notion that Equestria is so idyllic that there is no demand for change. I've dealt with demand as an instigator of social change already (social change happens whether people want it consciously or not, or whether they realize what they're doing will make social change), but there remains the ideal. Equestria is different from our world in exactly two respects: one, ponies have a kind and degree of mastery over nature that humans do not, and two, modern pony society does not seem to alienate ponies from their essence the same way or to the same degree human society does humans. The first would be true in any case, because of how pony biology and equestrian ecology works. It is possible for the second not to be true. For example, Sombra's Crystal Empire was surely alienating, and I'm sure Starlight Glimmer's colony will be too. Maybe the upcoming season will reveal some alienation in the present that past seasons have not. But that's as far as the differences go. Ponies have not abolished war. Ponies have not abolished discrimination. Ponies have not abolished snobbery. Ponies have not abolished exploitation. Ponies have not abolished want. All of these things continue to distort ponies' lives, cause them problems, and make them unhappy, so it's not like they're somehow a positive good in Equestria even though they suck in our world.
That's a mighty long blog post and I don't have time to give it the attention it deserves right now. Suffice to say that it is possible to be reliable in some respects and not in others.
5723033 I suspect that you're getting too hung up on the term "stagnation" and the implications it carries. I'm not suggesting that any particular society, Equestrian or otherwise, is incapable of inventing anything new; simply that they have not done so for an extremely prolonged period of time, for whatever reason. In the case of Equestria, that reason is that there's simply no particular impetus to do so. I should also point out that I'm discussing a threshold for something that improves the whole of a society in a substantial way - someone doing something new or innovative is not disproving the overall point; a single instance of invention does not beget a technological advance for a society as a whole unless it is widely-adopted and results in some greater change for some aspect of daily life for the majority of the people living in that society. That's a higher bar to set than, for example, simply extending an existing technology to a new location.
Similarly, saying that the idea of a society that doesn't meet any such criteria for a long period of time is "problematic" is itself ideological in nature. This isn't a question of ideology, but of theory and how that theory could be reasonably applicable to a fantastic society (which is itself pure guesswork, since there's no way to be certain, making all of this a case of abductive reasoning at best). No one is trying to justify colonialism or anything like it here.
Likewise, to say that my theory "fails to explain technological and social change" fails to justify its premise, and not just because you're over-broad in your statement as to what constitutes "technological and social change" across the board. Leaving aside the specificity of picking cherry-picking an example that's suitable for your point, but divorced from the larger issue under discussion (as well as my saying that the use of the real world for analogous comparison was a bad idea to begin with), the mechanization of England had some push-back, but that does not disprove the idea that it was popular and gained even further traction over time. The push-back that occurred was largely due to existing industries that were being pushed out by new technology that made them obsolete - for those people who weren't directly (or near-indirectly) involved in those industries, however, they were a boon and were quite popular. Nor does it matter very much that the people who enjoyed such new inventions were more concerned with profit than ideals - it's enough that they adopted such techniques and machines at all, whether for financial or social reasons. Your point of "revolutionaries do not make revolutions" is, therefore, a moot one - it's arguing a point that no one else is raising here.
Far more egregious, however, is your assertion "we know what societies capable of turn-of-the-century technology look like, and we know that the technologies themselves wreak predictable changes on society." Leaving aside that you do admit that technological determinism is only a theory at best, let's examine the failing of both of these premises. In the first case, we do not know what turn-of-the-century-capable technology looks like. For one thing, you haven't specified which century you're talking about, nor what such "capabilities" necessarily presume. Not every nation has the same capabilities as other nations, either in terms of manpower, natural resources, or political or economic influence, all of which are necessary components of any sweeping technological change. Insofar as the second part of your assertion, we absolutely do not find such changes to be predictable in all but the most sweeping regards; many technologies are classified as "disruptive" for this very reason. Saying that we can predict how any particular nation (let alone a fantastic one) will develop by taking a snapshot of it and saying that it will parallel the closest real-world analogue is the worst kind of humanocentricism.
This puts your points regarding the Flim Flam brothers into context, since it otherwise flies in the face of what you're postulating. While you're correct in noting that neither they nor the Apples were interested in improving the apple-picking industry, suggesting that any pony in the crowd would have had their entrepreneurial spirit defeated solely by their off-putting way of doing business is rather disingenuous. It's fairly clear from the get-go that nopony sees any mass-market applications to the Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000; there's absolutely no hint whatsoever that any of the ponies there ever so much as idly thought of any sort of business applications for the device. You're also flat-out wrong in saying that the Apples were not okay with betting their farm; they may have been reluctant, but they did make the bet, and were prepared to leave Sweet Apple Acres when they lost. But that's beside the point. It's inarguable that those events were a case of a device that had the potential to be revolutionary being introduced to Equestria, only to be near-totally ignored and subsequently forgotten about, which lends credence to the idea that this same thing has been happening all across Equestria for a long, long time. (The idea that the Apples have been selling their apple crop to a reseller, by contrast, proves nothing - that business arrangement started up alongside their farm when the first generation in Ponyville began planting apples there; more germanely, there's nothing to suggest that such business practices were in any way new.)
With regards to the archeological arguments, we can see the same thing.
First, your statement that I put words in your mouth with regards to the Castle of the Two Sisters because you "never mentioned rails" is obviously untrue, since you said (emphasis mine):
So clearly, you did mention rails and I therefore did not put words in your mouth. That said, the fundamental flaw in your argument is that it presumes that the fissure that the Tree of Harmony is located in is a large gorge that blocks off any easy overland route to the Castle. This is never shown in the source material; the most that can be clearly seen is that there's a large fissure in the ground that's between the Castle and the shortest route between it and Ponyville, but there's absolutely nothing to suggest that it encircles the Castle entirely. That's a presumption on your part. Without presuming that, however, your entire argument falls apart. Rather oddly, you note that the Everfree Forest is not a conducive place to lay track to begin with - that's true, but it undercuts the idea that tracks were ever there in the first place. If that's the case, then the entire issue becomes moot, since whether or not there was a rail a millenium ago wouldn't matter if it wouldn't go to that location even if it did exist.
You're similarly mistaken to say that the theory that the rail to the Crystal Empire is of recent construction works for your argument. Simply saying that that particular line of rail is recent does not mean that the entirety of the rail is a new invention. In fact, laying rail to an entirely new location (which after a thousand years, the Crystal Empire was, for all intents and purposes) says nothing about the prevalence of the rail in the past. Likewise, your presumption that the rail must be younger than the Crystal Empire because otherwise the Crystal Empire would have been built around it is a conclusion in search of facts to support it. That the Crystal Empire - regardless of any cosmetic resemblance it may have to Washington D.C. - would have to follow the presumption that we "know" how cities are laid out with regards to a rail line is a spurious argument, since it holds a particular presumption as being an absolute truth. In fact, it's hideously easy to knock this point down by pointing out the obvious flaw in that reasoning: even after the Crystal Empire has been established for some time, they do not follow the line of thought that you hold to be true and introduce a large rail station into the heart of the city, a la Grand Central Station. You can see in episode Equestria Games, by which time the Crystal Empire has been back for a while, that the railway still does not go into the city itself (0:01-0:06) and that it's continuing to use a small station situated outside of the city (2:16). Ergo, your logic is flawed. Likewise, your question of where could a crystal locomotive have been at the time the Empire vanished is also easy to resolve - one can only imagine that it was disassembled, for example, as an easy explanation for where it could be. True, there's nothing to suggest that's the case, but the possibility alone is enough to discount that it's existence must be indicative of the Crystal Empire predating the rail. (That's leaving aside the possibility that the locomotive itself is new, but the railway is not, which is a perfectly viable explanation.)
The other instances you posit similarly fail to survive scrutiny. Why is Fluttershy disdainful of a sewing machine? Simple personal preference alone is reason enough, particularly for a pony that fears her own shadow, and so has reason to fear a machine. Do the historical outfits for the Wonderbolts bear some resemblance to real-world outfits from earlier centuries? Sure, but that's purely cosmetic - suggesting that that necessarily parallels advances in tailoring, dyeing, etc. is a poor argument, since it requires that the cosmetic be absolutely indicative of the technological, which is very thin reasoning.
So finally, we come to the last point, which is that Equestria is idyllic. Leaving aside the issue that idyllic is not utopian, you don't grasp the fundamental point behind this issue. It's not that Equestria is free from want or problems, but simply that the problems it does have are not severe enough or systemic enough to create the necessity that acts as a mother to invention. We can see the parallel to this with regards to Equestria's legal system, which for all intents and purposes does not exist; if life in Equestria is comfortable enough that they don't even need to agree on a body of laws, is it really so unbelievable that any other desire to innovate (or even get rich) would be similarly atrophied? While isolated instances of worse-than-normal problems may crop up, these are invariably solved almost immediately: somepony like Sombra comes to power, only for the alicorns (or the Mane Six) to depose them. Discrimination is leveled against zebras or buffaloes, only for the various parties to work things out and come to an understanding. Ad infinitum. Problems in Equestria never reach any sort of critical mass that would drive anypony to either seek to create something to deal with them, or even reach the point of dealing with an inconvenience - even the simple motivation of inventing something (or marketing the invention of another) for money is not motive enough; the pursuit of wealth is little more than a hobby among those ponies whose destinies happen to bend that way (e.g. Filthy Rich, Diamond Tiara's father).
Having said all of that, I'll defer with regards to the question of the reliability of secondary sources until after you've read that blog post.
extra space
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I'll PM you my thoughts on the last two chapters
5723542 Fixed! Thank you.
Sonata was fun in this chapter. She's so clueless she can use mind control on a stranger without being evil.
5723355 If you're having a "no technological progress in Equestria" argument, I've got a list for you:
Hydro-electric power, cordless microphones, movie projectors, helicopters, sound systems and wristwatches for a start.
With the notable exception of automobiles and computers, Equestrian technology is roughly equivalent to 1950 or later in developed areas (Ponyville is a backwater village, but they still have electricity)
5723033 For an example of technological stagnation, look at ancient China. They wasted about a thousand years.
I can just picture Sonata with a cheery smile and a completely empty thought bubble over her head.
5723876 She does have a few aspirations! Like not having to work for the far less pleasant ponies under Queen Iliana. The Queen was nice enough, but those she leaves behind, yuck.
5723703 I'm not sure what you think that list is indicative of, since there's absolutely nothing to indicate that any of those things are in any way a recent invention for Equestria, as opposed to having been there for many centuries.
5724611 Let us all agree that the show does not provide sufficient info and move onwards, to victory!
5724614 Fair enough. To everypony that I was debating about this, let's let the matter drop and agree to disagree.
5722114
Also of note, all the artifacts Daring has to stop her rival from using. Someone had to make them, and it probably wasn't the non-pony races.
classmates'
Lex cannot be trusted to return to Equestria. He's madstallion that will force his ideas of how things should work on the rest of the world and his lack of empathy makes him the perfect vessel for King Sombra's return.
7713929 It's a presumption that he'd be possessed by Sombra; despite what horror movies teach us, not every grafted limb leads to being taken over by the original owner's spirit. As for his ideas, well...we haven't heard them yet. Just because someone is dour doesn't mean that they don't have ideas worth considering.
Blimey, if this guy was anymore angsty and misunderstood, he'd be a drow rogue.
9373610 Still better than a drow ranger.