I'll open this thread up with an opinion; it grinds my gears when people would write an action-based story but keep characters such as the Mane 6 from taking even a bit of a level-up in combat ability just to keep in line with canon. It bothers me very much because the writer is wasting the potential of the fic and necessary character growth.

So now that it is out of the way, how do you feel about adapting non-combative characters into characters that can actually put up a fight over sitting on the sidelines? Is it better for you to keep characters incapable of fighting as they are or do you like actually giving them more combat viability so that, even if they would lose they would still be able to put up a good fight?

4690603
You kill their parents.

4690613

So Applejack ?

4690603

Bar Fluttershy, aren't the M6 already decent fighters?

4690603
Nothing wrong with a training montage or two to get them in-form.

I'm not sure I understand your question because all "non-combatant" characters are fully capable of becoming combatant when the situation/need arises. What comes to mind is Fluttershy up on the mountain with the other Mane Six dealing with that dragon, how the dragon knocked out five of them and Fluttershy got in that dragon's face without a second thought thus becoming a "combatant".

write an action-based story but keep characters such as the Mane 6 from taking even a bit of a level-up in combat ability just to keep in line with canon.

I don't say this to be mean but to be honest; you and 99 million others who're always adapting MLP:FIM to video game scenarios which is one of the most common genres on this site.

If you take a look at this list you'll see there's already quite a few stories on World Of Warcraft, alone, and that doesn't include Portal, Minecraft and, of course, Fallout cross-overs so why would you even consider writing yet another variation on a theme which is very rapidly becoming a cliche'?

I'm just asking.

A little of both actually, I feel that if a character was made to not fight then in any combat situation they would seek out any means to escape the situation, and even if they can't they would at the very least have enough knowledge about their surroundings, even if having been there for the first time, to use what is there to their advantage even if they can only do this for a short amount of time; till someone or pony can arrive who has the combat capabilities to fight. Though not all situations are going to have a cart full of barrels or even a means for them to disguise them selves, I think it was best shown in the pmv Guardian that was animated by kanashiipanda as the best example of what I mean.

here is a link to the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRiPItZaue4

4690621

That is true, but I've seen too many people write the Mane 6 as having little to nothing to contribute in action-related scenes and fics. They would write them off as liabilities and it honestly kind of disappoints me.

4690630

Even if you asked, you sounded a bit vitriolic with your statement. In all honesty, this expands beyond just crossovers and into stories where it would make sense for characters who wouldn't normally fight to, well, fight. But, for some reason, the author is just content with keeping the character unable to fend off for his/herself because... I don't know?

4690634 It's especially worrisome in crossover stories if the crossover character(s) doesn't obviously outshine the ponies (not just the M6, but mainly them). For example, Batman being able to easily out-battle the M6 (it has happened in at least one fic here). Yes, he's a grandmaster in combat, genius intellect and very adaptive. But does it mean that he doesn't have any issues with Rainbow's speed or Twilight's magical prowess, for example? He could still win, but he would probably take a couple hits. Same goes with one of the alicorns.

4690603
Are you talking development of combat capability through the course of the story, or just buffing them up with no explanation? The former is fine and even necessary if the events in the story would dictate it, but the latter is open to harsh criticism of OOC behavior.

If the development is through the course of the story, the specific character and events would be important to whether the buffing makes sense. If Fluttershy wakes up one day and decides to learn martial arts, you're going to have a tough time convincing your audience that Fluttershy would make that decision; but if you put Twilight into a time-loop during a Changeling invasion, a gradual improvement of combat ability as the story progresses is believable due to the persistent threat and practice.

So, buffing just to buff is a no, but buffing as a believable part of the story arc is acceptable.

4690634 The problem is they are liabilities when actual deadly fighting breaks out, Fluttershy especially. They aren't fighters, they are a group of civilian mares with a strong friendship.

I mean against a group that wants to keep them alive ala the Changelings, they did ok for awhile. Then they got overwhelmed and were taken hostage. Hell, they'd have lost long before now if almost every villain hadn't taken a moment to gloat excessively. In an actual fight that doesn't happen.

Now if you're wondering why they are shown to be useless against the likes of the Reapers/Covenant/Combine (if it's a crossover), it's because those are exceedingly deadly factions that have been shown to be more than willing to kill billions to get their goals.

As for one on one skills, they've never really shown any prowess at fighting anything other than unarmed foes.

4690619
That's just one of six.

Fluttershy obviously doesn't have parents. They're both dead and have been since a very young age. She spent her younger years almost completely isolated, leading to her difficulties in surmounting the barrier she has with shyness, despite repeated attempts to do so.

Rainbow Dad died in an accident during Wonderbolts tryouts, hence why Dashie wants to be a Wonderbolt so badly. It was her father's dying wish. The mother died in foalbirth.

Twilight is obviously adopted, as is Shining Armor. They were both adopted because Twilight Velvet is infertile, and Night Light loved her too much to care, so they decided to just adopt.

Pinkie Pie, like Twilight, is adopted, but for wholly different reasons. Her siblings are all from the same parents, Igneous Rock and Cloudy Quartz. Pinkie Pie was taken from her unfit mother at a young age by the FPS (Foal Protective Services) and relocated to the Pie farm, where a farmhoof had recently quit quite abruptly and one more pony was entirely necessary in order to perform the amount of work necessary in a day. (Fun fact: The Child Protective Services originally would relocate children to farms in need of more hands. This changed as the amount of labor required in farming became less prominent in US culture.) It's unknown whether Pinkie Pie's allegedly abusive father that was a one-night stand gone 3 whole months wrong is alive or dead; the mother died shortly after losing Pinkie Pie due to a drug overdose.

Rarity's parents are dead to her--not literally, but figuratively. She treats them civilly and kindly when they are around, but they are the epitome of what she considers poor parenting and refuses to acknowledge she has living parents to anyone but her closest friends and family. The way she sees it, the only reason why she hasn't completely forced them away from her and her life with their inane mannerisms and horrible parenting is for Sweetie Belle's sake. Rarity is wanting to wait several more years, perhaps after Sweetie Belle is out of school and can properly choose for herself what to do with her life, before Rarity completely cuts ties with them.

4690603 It would depend on the characters and circumstances. Logically, the mane-6 should not be in a combat situation if you're writing pre-loss of the EoH and afterwards you could still make a very good case that they shouldn't be on account of deus ex rainbow.

Now for background ponies I can see it to some degree if a draft were instated but tactically, the mane-6 would be a no-go by most accounts.

4690659

Of course, I mean the part where they develop into being able to fight. Hence, the term 'character development' in the opening post.

4690667

They have their moments of on-screen combat, citing A Royal Canterlot Wedding and Twilight's Kingdom as examples. The abilities that they use in everyday living alone show their potential in combat. If they are capable of combat, then they would probably seek to developing it when threats that the magic of friendship alone cannot overcome it. Fluttershy would be slow to catch up however, since she would prefer to stay away from aggressive situations. But, she would still end up learning how to fight if the situation was dire enough to call for it like say... causing all the species of one animal to go extinct and moving on to other animals.

4690603 Well, given the mane cast's adventures, a lot of us already consider them decent combatants. I do, at least. I don't think you can fight through an army of changelings and not be at least a little punchworthy.

However, in general, if you have a character and you want them to learn and evolve as a combatant, I'd recommend thinking about how you would make that transition, or have. All of us (or at least, many) start out as non-combatants. Personally, I'm well versed in a martial art, but I'm no combatant. The key to writing about people becoming combatants is, to me, honesty. Honesty that being in a real fight is frightening, and that we're not in any way well versed in fighting until we get exposed to it in some way. People often miss that bit, and think it's somehow easy to risk your life and put yourself in danger.

If a character isn't a natural fighter, I'd want to see that change. If Fluttershy is suddenly in a fight, I'll want her to be suitably frightened, angry, or whatever. At which point, I think the change would be fine. 100% acceptable, because it'd have been treated with due diligence.

4690603 well non violent characters will rarely engage in battles so in roder to adapt them to fighters you need to give them a motivation to fight, e.g Fluttershy staring down a dragon and a cockatrice to save her friends

Or some people use this on minor characters, the reason they dont fight is that they used to be blood knights and don't want to go back to that lifestyle unless really have to.

4690603

Honestly, it depends on the character. If it is in line with the character's personality, then they might learn techniques and styles to aid them. But for others, combat is not essential at all. In a civilized society like theirs, trained fighters would be difficult to come by. Now, unless they needed to learn how to fight for a crucial reason, I doubt that most characters would seek to enhance their combative prowess.

Although, untrained people, erm, ponies aren't entirely helpless. Thrashing around wildly is a pretty effective deterrent and even a small weapon such as a rock or shiv tips the scales tremendously in the wielder's favor. It depends on the character and their actions/reactions to situations like an attack.

4690684 Except Twilight had the magic of Celestia, Luna, and Cadance in Twilight's Kingdom which she doesn't have normally, nor doe she actually have much control over it.

And as I said, they did fine in a Canterlot Wedding, up to a point where they got captured. Then you have the fact that capturing someone alive is harder than outright killing them, which partially explains the changelings bad showing there. And the fact the Mane 6 made themselves into a liability that needed to be saved just emphasizes the fact these aren't pony used to an actual battlefield.

4690679
I'm going to have to ask you to remove the link to your own story. Self-promotion isn't even allowed in the comment replies of The Writer's Group. Refer to this comment from the recent PSA thread for more information.

4690715

Nonetheless, they still showed a potential for combat, and potential for combat is what makes a difference between a character that can fight and a character that cannot fight. Their everyday skills can translate into fighting skill if the situation demands for it as well as taking the time to translate them into fighting skills, so there is that.

4690603
I am working on a MLP+Skyrim crossover involving Fluttershy and Twilight Sparkle.

It is quite a challenge to move Fluttershy from a cringing ball of yellow
fluff to a decent fighter.

4690603

Depends a lot on the character. For example, Spike is an easy one, since he already has a lot of traits that are useful in a fight, and aspirations to be some kind of hero - he just needs to grow stronger mentally.

Fluttershy, on the other hand, you have to put a lot of work into. We're talking major, major character development.

4690621

Fluttershy's problem is probably mostly psychological - we've seen that she is actually very strong and willing to use force when sufficiently motivated. She's just too repressed to resort to violence most of the time.

Thinking about it, I'd say the least talented fighter out of the Mane Six is probably Pinkie Pie. Even when participating in a fight, she tends to do it in a silly sort of way, like shooting them with her party cannon. I don't think it's really in her nature to hurt others.

As for the rest:

Twilight Sparkle: Tirek fight, nuff said.
Rainbow Dash: Karate black belt, kicks entire trees into firewood, and going by her "good dream" she actually enjoys violence.
Applejack: Less impulsive than Rainbow but has no problem kicking you in the face if she thinks it's necessary.
Rarity: Knows some kind of martial arts, and was the first pony to resort to violence in canon. Strangely badass despite her personality.

4690771 I've always like the idea of Rarity as being both idealistic and realistic. Thus, one could justify her being a physical fighter since:

Sure, she wants to be a princess / Lady. But what good is a Damsel that just stands there in danger?

4690818
Same here, I have always considered Rarity to be a Silk Hiding Steel type of girl. Yeah, she does not like violence and dislikes resorting to a physical confrontation, however, that does not mean she is helpless. Push her far enough and she will kick your ass, and will look fabulous while doing it.

4690818

I think that while Rarity is a hardcore romantic and a drama queen, she definitely isn't naive, and she seems like the type who isn't prone to rely on others. She gets things done on her own, and that includes protecting herself.

4690951

I agree with this 100%. Rarity can and will beat you up bad if the situation arises.

4690684
It wasn't completely clear to me, but that might have been me reading it wrong.

4691116 .
Although this is pure speculation, Rarity could actually be an extremely competent fighter. During the fight against changelings in Canterlot Wedding, where the Mane 6 face off against the changeling horde. During the fight, we see Rainbow Dash, Applejack, Fluttershy, Pinkie and Twilight taking down their opponents.
All this time, there is a lot of fighting going on in the background, which means someone is fighting the rest of the horde while these five have their moments...

4691152

It's no problem at all. My wording tends to be vague or off when I try to say it out. That's something I need to work on.

4690603
What grinds my gears when this even happens to characters like Celestia and Luna. They shouldn't be chopped liver when stuff is going down.

But anyway, the Mane Six aren't real combatants. They don't canonically have the training or experience to really benefit their side in a fight, with the possible exception of Rainbow Dash. But any fic author could easily say, "Oh, yeah, they decided to take up sparring with each other after the whole Changeling thing and got some of the guards to come give them pointers." It's not terribly hard to make them combat-worthy if the author wants them to be. I still wouldn't expect them to show up people who do combat for a living - that would be excessive - but at least they'd be able to contribute.

4690951
Her first instinct was not to run when faced with a manticore, it was to kick it in the face. That, and she seems capable of bench pressing Tom with relative ease.

Personally, I find it fun to think she was a tiny Hitler and one beastly little hellion as a kid, only to immediately reverse gears and go the opposite direction once adulthood hit.

4690603 Five of the mane six are more than decent fighters. They have actually far more experience in combat than most of the soldiers of the Human past, when it was common for an army to be formed by "all the men capable to hold a sword", or a rifle.
Gratuitous power-ups, or to transform what are canonically a farmer, a dressmaker, a vet, a party planner - clerk, a metereologist and a bookworm into some sort of super-trained soldiers are to me far more gear-grinding. Even more since in Equestria doesn't seems t be such a thing. No Special Forces, no Green Berets, no SWATs...

4690668

Rainbow Dad

Is his special talent blitzing out "dad jokes"?

Fluttershy obviously doesn't have parents. They're both dead and have been since a very young age. She spent her younger years almost completely isolated, leading to her difficulties in surmounting the barrier she has with shyness

Contrary opinion: Fluttershy can't have developed her social anxiety from not having parents, because that would have left her to deal with the world and meet her needs on her own instead of having the refuge of sheltering parents to hide behind - this leads to the opposite of isolation. She'd likely have to be traumatised in some major way to get how she is now while also dealing with the world on her own. Which... isn't all that unlikely, to be honest, it's just that you left that part out.

4692760
My statement about her younger years almost completely isolated was inspired by Genie, the girl who spent much of her formative years locked away from the world--just not quite as severe as Genie's case.

4693035
Except that Flutters is nothing like Genie. Genie basically could barely communicate or use language, especially at first. She had no idea about social behavior, and even after many years she was still deeply unsocialized. Her emotions were very muted, to the point of essential nonexistence at the beginning, and barely seemed to understand them in others.

I would say that Fluttershy has the opposite problem. She's quite 'normal', with all the faculties and understanding that you'd expect. She's extremely hypersensitive and overly empathetic. She absolutely knows about social behavior, which is why she's so anxious when she doesn't measure up. She's deeply and emotively emotional.

4690771

Strangely badass despite her personality.

*Because of.

4690771

Thinking about it, I'd say the least talented fighter out of the Mane Six is probably Pinkie Pie. Even when participating in a fight, she tends to do it in a silly sort of way, like shooting them with her party cannon. I don't think it's really in her nature to hurt others.

Pinkie is perfectly capable of fighting/getting righteously pissed when she feels the need for it.

In fact, she's probably broken-tier if she can control a powerful unicorn like Twilight and use her like a weapon.

She probably fights much like Joseph Joestar in Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, not being the strongest physically but using her brain and her hammerspace/physic defying abilities to trick her opponents.

Ultimately the only thing that holds her back are the writers/plot because she's so reality breaking.

4695331
I guess putting Fluttershy on even the same scale as Genie was a poor comparison. Okay, Genie's case crossed my mind when considering the outcome of Fluttershy's parents that led her to be the pony she is today. Is that a little better?