Sun and Hearth Post-Update Blog for Chapter 15 - Strong Enough to Bear This · 6:45am Nov 23rd, 2017
Ahem. A few hours late with this, but chapter 15 of Sun and Hearth is up!
I’m going to do my best to have chapter 16 up next Wednesday, Friday at the latest. It’s mostly done, but a sick kid and the holiday slowed me down.
For now, Post-Update blog for chapter 15 is under the cut. As usual, there are spoilers.
Ending Credits:
Random Trivia:
Luna frowned at her. “Your dream is full of wisdom.”
That, my friends, is shade. One thing that bugs me for no obvious reason is when people misuse the term “shade” because it’s such a beautiful concept. For those who aren’t aware, true shade is when any insult is entirely by implication, and thus only insulting because the listener assigns the implication to the comment herself. Please use the term shade correctly.
Luna did not want to have tea with Celestia.
Moving on, you didn’t think I was going to write a fic this long without Applejack being awesome, did you?
The thought of Celestia ugly-crying seems strange to me, but that’s part of the point of this fic.
Also, while it’s totally symbolic and stuff, I’d like to point out that the thing about jewelry poking you and getting in the way when you’re trying to cry is legit. If you’re serious about crying, you get that shit off ASAP.
World building:
So, Luna’s dream magic. It didn’t exist when the charter of Equestria was written, in the flashback in chapter six Clover implies that Luna and Star Swirl are still working it out.
[Side bit of world building: While I have got flashbacks all over these fics, there is sometimes a way to keep track of roughly when a founding-era flashback falls in relation to other fics: Pansy’s rank. She was promoted to Lieutenant in the cave, and in both the flashback in chapter six of Sun and Hearth and the flashback in chapter five of The Spirit of a Pegasus she’s a Captain. During the main events of The Spirit of a Pegasus she's a Major. I wish we were allowed to link to unpublished stories, I’d love to put one together that puts all of the founder’s era stuff in chronological order just to see what it looks like.]
Anyway, dreams officially added to the charter as Luna’s domain after much discussion about whether it counted as a domain, and whether they had any standing to give her rulership over it. The consensus was “well, she’s got the magic to do it anyhow, so we might as well make sure there are some rules in place.” Those rules include that any information Luna learns is automatically considered classified on her part and can only be released to Princess Celestia and the council if she deems it necessary to prevent harm. It also can’t be used as official evidence in any sort of proceeding, or cause for investigation, even information gathered during a lucid conversation within the dream.
Questions to answer:
Which of the Mane Six would you want to hash out your problems with at 3 AM when you can’t sleep?
Do you think Luna has “regulars”? Like, ponies who have been having the same nightmares for years, and by now she’s just like “I see you’re dreaming about your wife. Again. I will assume this means you still haven’t talked to her about the problem, as I have been suggesting for the past ten years. So, once again, talk to her. Please.”
Bookplayer you can't make the credits music two hours long that isn't allowed. (Though I'm greatly enjoying it so far.)
Every conversation Celestia has at this point is her being like "I'm completely fine, everything is fine, let's go have some tea and cakes while I tell you how fine it all is" while the other person slowly realizes she's completely detatched from reality and wonders how they're going to get both themselves and her out of this situation. My sample only consists of the talk with Cadance and this talk with Luna, but I feel pretty good about my conclusion regardless.
As far as the questions go:
1. Probably Applejack, tbh. Like it would depend what exactly the problem was, and now that I'm really thinking about it I'm not as sure, and hmm maybe actually I would go Pinkie Pie if I could catch her being real? There's a reason she's my favorite pony after all. This is a surprisingly tough question.
2. Luna absolutely has regulars, people are terrible at taking advice. Also, think about how wild it would be if a head of your government appeared in your dreams at night and gave you personal advice. Like, Mike Pence showed up. What the fuck. Really I'm surprised Cookie hasn't thrown more of a fit over that than anything, it seems like a super major invasion of privacy that the government really shouldn't be capable of. (Though personally I would be totes okay with Princess Luna showing up in my dreams to calm me the fuck down, that sounds sweet. But like. For the sake of Ethics.)
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It's my fic and I can do what I want. Including screw up linking the end credits music. Though there's nothing wrong with two hours of Blackmore's Night.
Fixed that, btw.
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Cookie was absolutely a dissenting vote. As was Hurricane. In fact, given the revelations about Hurricane in The Spirit of a Pegasus, it's likely that knowing that Luna had that power didn't endear her to him.
Luna totally has regulars. Some serious, some silly.
I think my preferred Mane Six member for late night discussions would depend on what's keeping me up. I could see just about any of them being viable choices... with the possible exception of Rainbow Dash, who'd probably hit me with pillows and/or lightning bolts until I got back to sleep, assuming she ever awoke in the first place.
Luna definitely has regulars. I can only hope that some of them are more rest stops than chronic patients, places where she can decompress during her nightly vigil. I like to think Pinkie has become one of those.
I was curious but this blog confirmed this. The chapter title and the title you have here for the chapter don't match. Mismatched articles.
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Thanks! Fixed the chapter. Obviously I was a little rushed last night.
Rarity for the banter, Twilight for the results
Absolutely, and that sounds like a fantastic prompt.
“Ugh, must we really do this dance again, Pinkie Pie?”
“Of course we do, silly! Now grab a shovel and let’s gobble up that lime-green cake mountain that represents my repressed anger for my rock farm-loving, fun-hating sister”
How do people normally use shade?
Easy. Princess Celestia.
Oh totally. If I was a pony, I'd invent a reoccurring problem just to get to see her.
Also, semi-related, I bet she hates Nightmare Night, as much as she loves it. It's likely her busiest dream shift of the year.
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is she detached from reality? Things aren't fine but they're as fine as they're going to get in the current situation, she doesn't feel she can change them and talking won't help
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Dude, you seem to have this problem where you're not reacting to the situations being written in this fic. For example, the flashback at the end of that chapter ends with exactly why she needs to talk to someone.
More specifically, I can tell you as the god of this world that if she doesn't remain open to being comforted by other ponies and won't show her pain to the ones closest to her, she's heading for a mental breakdown that will damage harmony and love magic in Equestria and possibly force Twilight to revolt against her to preserve it.
ETA: it's also worth noting that the narration is close third person limited, and if you're really still trusting Celestia's thoughts by this point... Yeah, you're going to get blindsided.
Anyway, your "I reject this fic's logic and replace my own" act is getting super annoying. Please either explain what you're trying to accomplish here, or stop.
well for one thing I find this endless bashing of stoicism to be pretty damn old within the realm of fiction. Secondly we're supposed to sympathize with Smart Cookie but I find him selfish and self-righteous from what I've seen. Celestia at least adapts, doing as much as she can for everypony while Smart Cookie seems to be so sure his way is right and must never be questioned. In an earlier chapter he says he was never capable of keeping his mouth shut and doing what he was told. There are times that's admirable. But a lot of people like that behave the same whether they are right or wrong
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You might be reading too much fanfiction set in a setting where emotional connections like friendship and love are magic that literally protects the world.
Cookie has literally never won an argument in the fic so far, and backed off gracefully all but once. Chapters 1, 5, 7, and 11 (then again with Twilight in chapter 14.)
Edit: He also had a long conversation with Twilight about his uncertainty in Chapter 8, and hoped that she might find a compromise.
He does believe in, and will fight forcefully to defend, the personal liberty of ponies (like Fluttershy, for example) and can be rather unbending when that is at stake.
That is totally true and is a character flaw he has!
You've expressed in no fewer that four places that you don't like this character or how he handles things. That's getting really annoying. What are you hoping will happen because of that?
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I'm defending a character I feel is being unfairly maligned. You don't have to be expressive to care
he seemingly got in the last word on Celestia in their argument
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Caring isn't enough. You have to have relationships that go in two directions for love and friendship, which includes trusting the people around you and communicating things that are bothering you. Walling yourself off isn't evil or anything, but it hurts relationships. (See also: The Spirit of a Pegasus.)
And in Celestia's case, it's representative of her forgoing genuine emotional relationships and her needs and sense of self because she thinks it's for the good of Equestria. It echos back to her conversation with Star Swirl on his death bed, to what Cookie said to the crowd of ponies about not expecting perfection of their leaders, and to blaming herself for letting her love for Luna keep her from taking offensive action to protect Equestria and for feeling pain at losing her sister when her sister betrayed Equestria. It also has echos of Luna walling herself off and refusing to hang out with the council or speak to Celestia at Star Swirl's death or when Celestia tried to help her.
The fic has stated a premise that it's dangerous -- to both Celestia and Equestria -- for Celestia to lose sight of who she is as a pony. In recent chapters, we've been seeing her in a situation where she lost the safe place where she always felt she could be herself as a pony. That's going to have repercussions, both for her mental health and ability to rule.
He did in that argument, where he felt lied to and betrayed and was ready to end their relationship over it. People who are not sure their way is right and are open to long discussions about an issue tend to have their limits, and often someone going behind their back and manipulating them into providing support for something they think is morally wrong is one of them.
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PS:
At the beginning of the fic, Celestia made a choice:
Her choice was not to support Cadance and Twilight, she was offended at the idea that she was making a choice there. The choice she actually made was between Smart Cookie and Equestria. She picked Equestria.
The problem is that in my Equestria, you can't put Equestria before personal relationships, because Equestria is built on and defended by personal relationships. My Equestria is the one where the only way to defeat Tirek is for Twilight to give up all of the power in exchange for her friends. By picking the power to defend Equestria over the pony who loves her and offers her comfort, she's failing Equestria.
Celestia forgot that, and she needs someone to get through to her.
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okay, but Equestria is it's ponies you can't separate them. And if fact all that magic that Twilight had to give up? Happened because Celestia put Equestria ahead of Twilight, asking her to bear the burden of all that power and potentially making her a bigger target for Tirek.
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Equestria is its ponies! Yes! That's my point! So if Celestia isn't respecting the individual ponies of Equestria like Cookie, Twilight, and Fluttershy...
ETA:
And in the case of Twilight, Celestia wasn't making a choice between Twilight's relationship with her and Equestria, she was thinking that Twilight would save Equestria, which Twilight was pleased to do. And which includes Twilight. There was no point where Celestia though "this would make Twilight not my friend, but it might save Equestria." Protecting other ponies from harm isn't magic, friendship and love are magic.
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sorry, I happen to find lives more important than ideals. And thinking about this, by your argument Celestia would have been fine if she'd done this for Twilight or Cadance. And frankly you try to protect those you care about, that's a huge part of love
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Okay. Whose life got saved by Celestia's choice? Because her decision to control ponies lives was based on a lot of hypotheticals and wishful thinking that didn't pan out. Oh, and it was in fact intended to save lives from a threat she actively created, against the wishes of one of those ponies, knowing the risk and deeming it acceptable. A threat which the other of those ponies would argue isn't a threat at all, considering that Fluttershy trusts Discord.
Yup! If Celestia had been doing this for Twilight and Cadance, she would have been fine! Especially because both of them, when consulted, recognized it at a thorny issue, understood Cookie's concerns, and mentioned that they would have to think hard themselves about if they wanted any part of it. She would never have had to lie to Cookie, and while Cookie might have driven her crazy with indecisiveness, they would never have fought and he would never have left her.
It's almost as if the events of the story support this theme...
ETA: In fact, when Cookie thought she was doing this for Twilight and Cadance, it's a funny little thing that made him willing to open himself up to new challenges to his perspective:
Not if they're grown adults and they don't want you to. And if you need to put them in harms way, and they indicate they'd be proud to do it, then it's not showing a lack of love to accept their decision as a rational adult.
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Okay, first I want to apologize. I got way too snarky there, and while my points stand, I could have addressed them with more tact.
Second, I wanted to talk a bit more seriously about this:
Now, obviously you don't believe that totally, or you'd be advocating strongly that, for example, people shouldn't be allowed to drive cars. In the grand scheme of things, you think people's personal freedom to use a car (licensed, of course) trumps the literally millions of lives that would be saved each year world wide by banning them. Or you think the idea of progress and extra utility is worth it. You're not advocating for perfect safety, so some ideals outweigh some number of lives to you.
You think the cost of people not having cars (inability to travel freely, lost productivity) is not worth the benefit (millions of lives saved.) In other cases, you might realize the cost and benefit are worth it on paper, but it's not likely to actually work (for example, directing all government spending towards research into immortality.)
The question becomes, how much of an ideal will be lost for how much benefit, and how likely is it to work? Obviously, in this fic, Celestia thought the price of freeing Discord (potential future harm to ponies) was worth the benefit (Discord on her side) and that it was likely to work (because Fluttershy could reform him.) She also thought that the price of taking Cookie's freedom regarding his magic and Fluttershy's freedom regarding her love life was acceptable for the potential benefit of controlling Discord indefinitely, and she thought it would work, but she was wrong. Should she have been more sure that there even was a problem, and that taking these actions would fix it, given the cost?
When you consider what action is right, people are going to feel differently on where the balance should be. But you do need to consider the balance of those things to decide if an action is reasonable. Saying "I believe lives are more important than ideals" is either insane or meaningless.
Now, once again regarding this story, Celestia was not making good decisions, and there's a reason she was not making good decisions, and this fic intends to address it. But, ya' know, at the end, where stories are usually resolved.
this? is there something missing that's supposed to be after the colon, or is it indicating the story in general
Honestly, you're not that snarky, I felt like I was going to far and kind of wanted to stop bugging you about it. I just happen to feel like being able to put the good of others you don't know highly is a very good thing. Every choice everyone makes can affect others, you can't just spend all your time clearing everything with everyone. And saying everything is fine even when you know it's not is not jst some denial of emotions. Sometimes things are just as good as they're going to get and you don't have the power to change them, and in those times talking about it just makes it worse
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Sorry, on a tablet and hit send too soon.
The rest of the comment is there now.
considering what the ability to get sick people quick medical attention, get to better jobs and make more money and just take care of needs more easily I wouldn't say cars are more of a danger than they're worth though. Fluttershy was encouraged to befriend Discord which is not her love life. And what freedom does Cookie lose by others learning about his magic?
And part of my problem is I don't think the poor decisions you say Celestia is making are near as bad as you think they are
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Celestia planned to manipulate Fluttershy into falling in love with Discord. That was her whole plan. (That is, the plan that the narrative indicates was a bad idea, immoral, and unlikely to work, therefore not worth manipulating the pony she loves to pull off.) (And a plan intended to protect ponies from what would happen if Fluttershy died, which is a danger that Celestia put them in by asking Fluttershy to reform him.)
You're good with that plan?
And Cookie wouldn't lose freedom by letting ponies learn about it, but manipulating him into letting ponies learn about it knowing that he wouldn't want to if it meant that Celestia was going to manipulate Fluttershy into loving Discord is controlling him.
And that the point, with the cars thing. Than they're worth. That's weighing costs and benefits.
There's so much baking in this story, it should be called a NomRom