Chapter Twelve · 9:14pm Mar 27th, 2017
Twilight, as was fast becoming a habit, lay wide awake for a little longer. She stared up past the rafters to the ceiling of the mill, thinking about nothing at all until Luna approached Twilight and leaned close. Her horn was softly glowing, the princess intending to shut the purple unicorn out from her dream.
"You're going to keep doing this for how long?" Twilight whispered, halting Luna in her tracks. The princess looked honestly surprised at the question. Twilight gazed up at her, lying on her back.
"And why wouldn't you meet my eyes that night at the banquet, back at the fort?" Twilight asked. She had so many questions she had never known when or how to ask. They chose now to escape her brain through her mouth.
The princess said nothing for the longest time, their eyes fastened on each other, violet on blue, neither part so much as blinking. Luna's horn was still glowing, pulsing without a sound. The light illuminated both their faces, neither of which held any discernible expression.
"When you said there was merit to anypony who dared to speak their mind to you rather than bow and scrape," Twilight said, shaking her head slowly. The back of her head ground against the hard floor. "I thought at first it was an insult to Rarity, but there's a difference between obeisance and observing decorum. I'm asking you the questions. Why won't you answer? Why won't you show me?"
Luna was still staring at her. The princess was mute, but she leaned in a little closer. Her breath was hot. Twilight blinked, only now realizing that there were tears in her own eyes, and she was shivering even though she felt warm all over. Her body obviously didn't even know what it was doing any more.
The final word in their discussion still hung above Twilight, the spell that clung to Luna’s horn in silent threat. Despite how much she didn’t want that spell cast on her, Twilight felt herself drawn up, raising her head off the ground to get closer to Luna. Her breath came ragged, and her voice was unsteady.
"If your duty and your purpose is to raise the moon, and the memory you cling to is what's keeping you from doing that," Twilight said, gripped by a surge of the nauseating anger that accompanied thinking about the dichotomy that was Luna. "Why can't you let it go? What the hay am I missing?"
(Excerpt from Within and Without, Chapter 12. I wrote this in 2011 and used a lot of passive voice back then, but eh. Formatting is also strange. I've written a lot and learned a lot since then, but the story will forever be precious to me.)
That brings back memories.
Who else first saw this image and thought that luna had a dick?
Please tell me it is not just me? 
4474186
Yeah, that scrap of Rarity’s mane needs to be edited out. Seriously.
Still a favorite story of mine. Just one or two loose ends I wish had been addressed. This story certainly cemented a headcanon or two for me!
What I would like to see is a comparison. What would this scene look like if you were to write (or I guess rewrite) it today?
Regardless of whatever problems it may have had, Within and Without was still one of my favourites
Ah, I love this story~ :D
4474158 Yeah, no kidding! I re-read it recently and had a marvellous time, actually, hah.
Speaking of re-reading, while I re-read Naked Singularity recently, too, since it's one of those very rare stories that I remember that do not trigger any of my hell-no buttons (of which I have gathered quite a few over the years), and I immensely enjoyed it, so thank you for that.
4474186 Huh. Didn't see that. Still kinda don't, really, except when I try to see it!
4474212 Eh, I draw for my own pleasure, I doubt I'll make edits since I don't see it myself.
But yeah, fwiw, I rag on the story a lot, conversationally, but I really just... sort of do that as a defensive thing, I guess. I criticise it because I love it, and I am the first to point out its flaws (which I don't do with all my stories, at all) because I care about it. I can't ever un-headcanon the ancient past of that story. (And, thank you!)
4474292 Appreciate it, truly! I wrote a few things on critique and such in my above reply here. Am also gonna make another reply here in a minute with some more in-depth comment.
4474240 The easy questions, right? Ha. Two answers, I guess!
On one level, I wouldn't just rewrite the scene. I am hankering for a rewrite of the entire story, and I may well do that one day, mostly for my own sake. A wholly self-indulgent affair. I'd clean up and resolve Gilda and Trixie differently (esp the Hotel scenes), and I'd edit the ending/epilogues a bit, but leave the chain of events as-is, mostly.
But! To answer your question directly, I just want to fix the formatting and voice, which would give us something like... hang on.
Twilight, as was fast becoming a habit, lay wide awake for a little longer. She stared up past the rafters to the ceiling of the mill, thinking about nothing at all until Luna approached Twilight and leaned close. Her horn glowed softly with the intent of shutting her out of the Princess' dream.
"You're going to keep doing this for how long?" asked Twilight, her whisper halting Luna in her tracks. The princess blinked with open surprise, but said nothing. Twilight gazed up at her, lying on her back. "And why wouldn't you meet my eyes that night at the banquet, back at the fort?" Twilight continued. She had so many questions she had never known when or how to ask. They chose this moment to escape her brain through her mouth.
For the longest time, Princess Luna said nothing, and the silence stretched on with their eyes fastened on each other, violet and blue entirely unblinking. Luna's horn pulsed soundlessly with light that illuminated both their faces, Luna as expressionless as Twilight imagined herself.
"When you said there was merit to anypony who dared to speak their mind to you rather than bow and scrape," Twilight said, shaking her head slowly, grinding the back of her head against the floor. "I thought at first it was an insult to Rarity, but there's a difference between obeisance and observing decorum. I'm asking you the questions. Why won't you answer? Why won't you show me?"
Luna still stared, but though mute, she leaned in a little closer. Her breath was hot and Twilight blinked, only now realising there were tears in her own eyes. She shivered even though she felt warm all over, proof that her body was as confused as her mind. The spell that clung to Luna's horn still hung above Twilight, the end to a discussion that had been nothing of the sort, the final hovering word of a monologue. Despite how much she did not want the spell itself, Twilight felt herself drawn up, raising her head off the ground to get closer to Luna. Her breath came ragged now, and her voice was unsteady.
"If your duty and your purpose is to raise the moon, and the memory you cling to is what's keeping you from doing that," Twilight said, gripped by a surge of the nauseating anger that accompanied thinking about the dichotomy that was Luna. "Why can't you let it go? What the hay am I missing?"
I don't know if the differences are immediately noticeable, but cleaning up the excessive passive voice* and such makes me happy. Making a pass through W&W/O just for that is unlikely, though.
*However! I think passive voice has become like Mary Sue in that it's one of those things writers are becoming over-cautious of and zealous when they deal with. Passive voice is absolutely fine to use, you just need to be aware of it and not use it as default.**
**You know this, probably, and I don't mean to sound like I'm telling this to you specifically, I just... felt like mentioning this since I'm already discussing passive voice. Sorry, Karrakaz, and thank you for a very interesting question that made me think for a bit.
4474316 Aw, thank you! You're very kind to say so. I always wonder how many people who read W&W/O are still around. I don't say that coming from a place of baseless nostalgia or anything, I just didn't expect anything much more than crickets when I post a drawing and some text outta nowhere.
4474240 4474320 (But, as a quick addendum to this, I certainly would rewrite every scene more than just cleanup. In this case, I just edited for five minutes. I realise how silly it is to do close analysis critique of one's own work, but for this scene, I think I can do emotional monologue better by editing language and action flow. I've had SO much practice with this since, and the fic I'm writing right now does so damn many things with action and dialogue)
Okay done now. Sorry for the spam. You got me talking about writing. Your fault.
4474340
Makes sense. If only there were enough hours in the day for us to rewrite parts of the stories we're not happy with years down the line. Whenever I see a post like yours, it always makes me wonder if I myself have learned anything at all in my now four years of writing pony-fiction.
For me, as I think might also be the case for you and most anyone else, I am my own blind spot, and looking at work other people have authored always looks so much better because it doesn't conjure the countless mistakes you've made yourself.
In short, I thought W&W/O was wonderful, and wonder if I'll ever write something like it.
4474346 I wouldn't ever want to be blind to my own mistakes, of course, because that is part of getting better, but I also agree with what I believe you are saying: It's common to be blind to one's own strengths and progress. If there's a fix to that, I don't know it, but I'd rather struggle with that (and work through it by having friends who can offer different perspectives) than have the opposite problem. I hope you are blessed with friends such as I, who can offer both a morale boost and different angles of critique.
Hey, my rewrites are on a list, and I'm getting there one day. Just gotta get this tiny story out of the way first (just passed 250k words, jeez). D'you have any story in your portfolio you really want to rewrite?
"Something like it" in this case can mean two things. I assume you don't mean its objective qualities, which can be discussed: I'll criticise it if you praise it and defend it if you hate on it. If you refer to the more interesting role of W&W/O as a work created during a surfeit of motivation and confidence, something that the author made and loves forever, then... I really hope you either write a story like that, or discover that love within one of the stories you've already written, because I feel every writer deserves something like that.
Speaking of your stories: I notice you have a short non-sad slice of life ship fic as your most recently written story. That is like... in the extremely narrow scope of stories I can read these days without being destroyed. I'm gonna head to bed and read that right now. Thank you in advance for adding to the library of non-sad pony stories.
4474355
I think the easier question would be: "Is there a story that you wouldn't want to rewrite." The answer to which is: I think there's one, but that one's so short that there would really be no point in rewriting it. The rest of it? I have a hard time rereading because all I can really see is the me of the past through the lens of me in the present (pretty terrible at writing). That being said, I must have improved, even if it often doesn't feel like it.
What I mean with writing something like W&W/O is... I actually don't know.
Looking at the excerpt from your chapter twelve here, both past and present, I see something I feel is lacking in my own stories. Which in turn leads to me wondering if I've learned anything hence my previous comment. There's a life and a subtlety to the scene while also possessing a good deal of... "anticipatory drama"? I guess? Something ephemeral that I feel I struggle with.
I know that feeling. I promise I'll keep adding to the non-sad pony stories, if you do the same.
4474339
I'm a horrible lurker by inclination, so let me break that habit for a moment: W&W/O was one of the first stories I read, back before fimfiction was a thing, and I'm still around. Loved it then, loved it when I reread it a year or so back; any notional technical faults aside, it was an impressive bit of building a world that was still very, very sparse in the first season. I've read a lot of good stuff since then, in many different flavors, but I do miss the epic adventure stories that we just don't seem to see anymore. Sometimes I wonder if this fandom would have gotten so big during the second season if not for folks like you filling in the corners early on, building inertia.
Anyway, here's a six-years-late "thanks for writing."
4474366 Hmh. I guess I actually agree. I'd "rewrite" all my stories, ideally, if only because of language skills improving and such, but I don't know that I'd want to edit the structure of all of them. Some because they are beyond saving, some because I think their plot works. But wrt. the whole lens-of-the-present thing, let's just say that I, too, get that, particularly wrt. Building Bridges. It very much is my... first work.
Wrt. the whole W&W/O thing, I think it probably ties in to the whole notion of viewing others' stories differently. Despite writing longer stories and more expansive stories, I still feel like I haven't managed to capture the thing I wanted to steal from Off the Edge of the Map by Daetrin, y'know? Don't want to keep saying "I know how you feel" but that particular unreachable ephemeral something is know to me, at least.
But hey, speaking of anticipation, drama and longfic, I'm now twice as anxious to see what you think of my current story-in-writing when I finish it.
(And for the record, your recentmost little story was an absolutely delightful way to end the day. Thank you again, and I absolutely will keep it up m'self, too).
4474519 Aw, well, thank you! It's super awesome to hear from someone who read the old GDocs version! I assume too much time passed between the old version and the "new" (and now ancient) FiMF edition that you didn't really notice the changes much?
Regardless, you do me great kindness with your words. I try not to speculate too much on the role of us early writers because I'd never want such responsibility, hah. Besides, I think the real blame lies with the people who wrote what 4chan calls a fanfic, meaning a .jpg with ~200 words. Now those are pioneers.
If you miss the old adventure stories, I hope you've kept an eye on my blogs though, 'cause there's one damn big adventure on the horizon, old-season style. Perhaps even heavier on the words and culture, and lighter on the explosions than usual, but adventure is a'comin. I hope you'll enjoy it!
4474320
The one loose end that always bothered me:
There was also Twilight's letter to Celestia at the end, but Luna's letter to the Hollows and the insignia itself always felt like a sequel hook that led nowhere.
Or did it?
4474725 Aw, I'm sorry that bothers you, truly. That's just the sort of stuff that I'm happy to leave dangling. I think every story end needs to have (and will have) some dangly bits, be it a happily ever after or something like what you quote here. Just like how I love creating worlds with a lot of unknowns (literally every setting I create will have evidence of massive events in the far past), I enjoy sowing the seeds for possible futures. This is one such.
I can tell you that I personally imagine Luna makes the trip back there, together with Twilight, and that they start a process of healing, but that's just my take on it. I am not an authority on my own story beyond my intent in writing it. I'm just another reader when it comes to interpreting it. (That's not to say I'm ruling out side stories based on W&W/O. Maybe when I get around to a light rewrite one day, or specifically, after that).
Afraid the new story is not one such though! The story I'm working on right now—meaning I'm writing on the other monitor, pausing only to reply here—is all new content. Like Lost and Found, I'm creating a new world, a new mythology, a new everything. Also like Lost and Found, I can't seem to completely escape W&W/O, either, so the background events inevitably end up related in the sense that they're always based on my personal interpretation on the core material. The core stuff comes first, always.
4474729
Less sequel hook than Noodle Incident, then.
If it bothers me, it's in a good way! The "this story was great, and more of it can only add to the greatness" way.
Love the picture. Didn’t notice anything strange with Rarity either. While Lost and Found is still on my To Read list, I’ll definitely look forward to a new adventure story in the old season style. Glad you’re still writing, and more importantly, enjoying yourself doing it.
4474660
Eh, a couple times I had deja vu, this-isn't-quite-how-I-remember-it moments, but I chalked it up to faulty memory. I think I've got a PDF of the original sitting on an old Kindle somewhere. Now that you've mentioned it, I might have to go look for it...
Been looking forward to your new story. An old-school (is this fandom old enough to have an old school yet?) adventure story sounds great.
4474767 Now afraid to look that up. Presume it's the open-ended-est of fics? No, okay, I have to look. Thank-you though!
4474913 Enjoyment is one of those tricky things. The question of to which degree I enjoy/how I enjoy writing, and my relationship with writing is one of the most confusing topics of my life, honestly.
Being happy that there's one more person out there who likes the idea of an adventure story though, that's a lot easier to deal with. Yay!
4475665 I mostly just refer to the fact that it's set after S2 and before S3, and heck, if being written by someone who's been around the fandom since early on makes it oldschool too, sure, it lends a little more credibility to trying to apply that term to a fanfic about a series less than a decade old!
(Proper oldschool would of course be a 500 word first person fic in .jpeg format.)
4476541
More like this :
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoodleIncident
Yooo! Hella rad to see a W&W related blog post as it forever remains one of my favorites
I still deeply appreciate the richness of the main arc; it's such a brilliant display of organic conflict and character development. But since you brought it up, if you ever do end up re-writing it, it would be really incredible to see the ending handled a bit differently. I know you already mentioned that doing so would be a primary motivation of the hypothetical re-write, but I still feel compelled to comment on it.
In its present format, I'd argue that the reader is fundamentally denied the true resolution of the story. Consequently it definitely felt like having the rug pulled out from under me in both times that I've read it. I feel that there's so much anticipation created for a final, heart-to-heart dialogue between Twilight and Luna. But instead of getting that sense of finality, the focus alternatively shifts to affirming that Fluttershy has resolved her issue, which is something that I at least had already accepted. I'd actually be willing to trade the epilogues for a single "I'm sorry"; I feel like even that would do so much to help leave the reader's heart at ease haha.
Anyways, I don't think that I messaged you about it (I must have thought you weren't active on here for some reason) but a couple years ago I produced a track in homage to the nightmare scene from the story called Welcome to My Lullaby. So since I didn't say it before, thanks for writing such an awesome and inspiring adventure!
Also, great work on the art, cheers!
4481947 Oh, wow, thank you very much, not just for the kind words, but for bringing this piece of music to my attention! I'd love to link to it in the April status update, unless you mind! Jeez, you put some work into this—there's even commissioned artwork? I love it, dang. Why don't y'all tell me when you do fan stuff!
As far as the ending stuff goes: You absolutely are not alone in feeling this way. I've gone through a lot of different... phases, almost, in how I feel about it. If you read the original version, you'd know that the ending was even more bare-bones then, and I think it's one of those eternally compounding problems.
In the first major edit (i.e. the changes I made when I posted it onto FiMF), I expanded upon the FlutterDashShy arc to try to ensure I had addressed everything, but in doing so, the attention to the TwiLuna shrank by comparison. What I had intended as a very ... I don't want to say open ending, but let's call it a "light" ending—became perhaps too light because the now-longer epilogue created the expectation of more.
That's just a theory, anyway. Another truth is, I think there is always going to be a person for whom the epilogue is going to be insufficient.
A third truth is that, after having written and edited this story, and with so much time having passed, I may also just be stubborn. I am not above admitting this, at all. Heck, a part of me even agrees. It's not even a small part: I always want to go on. Did you ever read Where Earth Meets Sky? I kept wanting to expand that epilogue. I wanted to go on. That's what led to Where They Are Joined, and I personally feel their arc is weaker for it, in a sense. Hmh.
Sorry. This got long. You have a simple point, and I have no simple answers except that I'm not decided myself. If I do in fact do a "final" edit on W&W/O, I know I'm editing one scene in particular, but I may just expand the epilogue while I'm at it, if I can find a need for it in looking at it again.
I have to ask though: Who needs to apologise to who? Is it the fact that Luna has not, in your eyes, apologised "enough" to Twi?