On the Power Level of Starlight... · 12:04am Dec 6th, 2015
and other Starlight Glimmer things I see all over the place... Spoilers for Cutie Re-mark if for some reason you haven't seen it.
I'm happy that now that the season finale is out, my predictions about her being little more than a bully were confirmed. So, sorry people that thought that she actually cared for equality like some sort of misunderstood leader. Turns out, she was doing it all for selfish reasons like your regular bully. Called it. (Even if I have eat some of my past words in the next paragraph.)
So, I'll grant that I was wrong about Starlight back in April in the sense that she's clearly talented with Magic, to the extent she impressed Twilight. I'll definitely give her that, and I was wrong.
However.
What is this BS I see about her being "as powerful as Twilight"? Vague references to her battle with her and such used as quasi-evidence don't matter if you take THE WHOLE EPISODE as a frame of reference.
Let's start by clearing something up. Starlight is powerful, no doubt about that. She casts a spell that breaks time apart... with the clear and obvious assistance of TWO magical artifacts that contained the power of time travel.
Note: Let's be clear as well about this as well, it's not just a spell. It's a modified artifact that contains the magic to send ponies into the past. So much so that she knows that by destroying it, she would put a stop to any chance Twilight had of stopping her. AND, Twilight herself tells Applejack in AU Equestria that: "Another pony named Starlight Glimmer used this map to travel through time and change things in the past." (12:33 mark of the episode.)
So, Starlight casts a spell to activate it. Arguably it requires a decent amount of magic, so she's clearly no slouch. She gets sucked into the past, and casts a flying spell on herself. It is additionally established in the episode that Starlight always is at the same spot in time and unaffected by Twilight's jumps, therefore, she only and only once actually had to cast her walk on clouds spell, followed by her levitating herself spell. So every time that Twilight appears in the past, Starlight is fresh in reserves.
So let's bold Twilight's expenditure in magic and physical effort, which is not renewed every time, unlike Starlight's.
01) Enter Twilight. She casts the time travel spell.
02) Gets sucked out of the past into a different future.
03) Then she casts the time travel spell again. And Starlight is reset to renewed strength.
04) She appears in the past again in a very obvious manner and gets trapped in crystal by Starlight who has not used any more magic than originally at this point.
05) She has to break the crystal, race up to Rainbow Dash and then gets sent to the future.
06) There she has to: a) gallop away from a bunch of changelings, b) cast teleportation and c) she casts the time travel spell again. And Starlight is reset to renewed strength.
07) Past again to the point where Starlight Glimmer hasn't cast sh*t past . a) Cast shield immediately. b) Shoot magic with her eyes closed because she's too adorkable to look. c) teleport d) shoot more rays and cast another shield.
08) I will point out that by the time she lands she's very tired, and more importantly, so is Starlight, who I remind you again, was fresh in power and effort when Twilight gets there. Then she teleports again to talk to Rainbow Dash.
09) Twilight is sent to the future.
10) Twilight is revealed to not have enough power for whatever spell she was about to use against the wolves. Gets NMM to clean up the forest... then teleports herself, and as a different spell, teleports Spike and she casts the time travel spell again. And Starlight is reset to renewed strength.
11) She traps Starlight Glimmer in an arguably weaker crystal trap than she would at full power.
12) She's sent to the future again.
13) She casts the time travel spell again. And Starlight is reset to renewed strength.
14) She accidentally traps RD in crystal and gets sent back to the future.
15) She casts the time travel spell again. And Starlight is reset to renewed strength.
16) She gets sent back to the future.
17) She casts the time travel spell again. And Starlight is reset to renewed strength. And she has to cast another shield. Twice.
So let's see. She casts... about 26 spells if we count each shot during the fight to Starlight's... 8 at most.
Yeah. No. Starlight is not as powerful as Twilight. Stop the BS, people. Talented? Possibly. Powerful? No.
Just to add the cherry on top, remember she never pissed Twilight enough for her to actually use Alicorn magic either.
Peace!
100% agree, yes, absolutely.
Transcript:
You make some very good points
3595898 Did you pay attention tho? Look at the proof. She's saying that magic couldn't stop her not that she was more powerful.
Relevant: cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/62123309.jpg
*clapclapclapclapclap*
Put into words everything I thought.
Also remember that she spent years studying that one (admittedly powerful) spell that Twilight managed to counteract in the two-part opening of the season. And as Starlight knows/created the crystal-trap spell, she'll likely know the counter.
Regardless, Twilight's just shit at combat anyway.
3595898
I took that to mean more Twilight couldn't stop the spell she'd set in motion, the only one who could break it was Starlight herself. Honestly, every season end/beginning villain we've seen in the show has been defeated by magical brute force. Starlight's the first opponent Twilight's faced in the show where that couldn't work, the only way to beat her was to out-think her
Very nice, Wanderer! Excellent, detailed breakdown of their encounters. Oh, how I wish Twilight had gone all-out and vaporized her.
3595903 Relevant:
Dude, what's up with all the bitching? xD
So, you say she ain't powerful... like, we're overlooking the fact Twilight is on a goddess level of power and yet Glimmer didn't fail miserably to deflect the first attack like it would be expected for the standard unicorn. I mean, I would expect anyone else to have their barrier fucked up by the first shot...
Eh, whatever, you're right, she's a bug.
3595926 She dodged the attack. She never stopped a Twi-blast. And Twilight had her eyes closed every time she shot.
3595924
I was making a jab at the people arguing that Starlight's on the same magical power level as Twilight :/
Remember all those times Twilight Sparkle levitated herself as a unicorn with the power of her own magic when it would have been incredibly helpful for her to do so? Me neither.
My jimmies have been soothed.
3595933 What does that have to do with power level? That's just smart use of resources.
I could counter just as easily:
Remember when Starlight Glimmer froze over 20 ponies in place while all animals in the area as well as her single ally were not affected? Me neither.
3595933 I remember her reversing gravity to climb a flight of stairs faster.
3595945 Before or after she became an alicorn and gained a whole new magnitude of power?
3595902
She also doesn't correct AJ when she says that SG is too powerful to let loose.
I think we're risking a dive down the rathole of semantics. Does she have as much raw power as Alicorn Princess Twilight? Almost certainly not. However, it may well be that SG can use her magic more efficiently than Twi in certain respects, putting her in the same effectiveness class while her magic lasts.
As an analogy, she may be a Kirov-class battlecruiser instead of an Iowa-class battleship. The Iowa is bigger, faster and tougher, but the Kirov will still rip your guts out.
3595947
Yeah, but that's merely manipulating and localising the very forces of the natural universe, not using an ability every unicorn has on yourself.
3595957 Hm. You're missing the point, but if you insist...
Season 1: Levitated the water supply of Ponyville, telekinetically milked all the cows in a barn to fill it with milk while consecutively using a wind spell to lull an Ursa Minor to sleep, then levitated a bear cub the size of a small building from Ponyville all the way to the Everfree Forest.
Additionally, she has levitated herself.
MLP is not Harry Potter. Self-levitation has always been possible and has never been implied as terribly difficult.
3595929 Man, have you wondered if you're taking the whole "Glimmer is shit" thing too far?
Anyway, a lot of people in the fandom is happy with the character. Why bash at the idea of Glimmer being just as awesome as Twilight?
I also doubt her levitating spell was a one shot thing, it looks more like a spell that consumes magic as long as it is in use. Also, she was cloud high all the time (potential energy, anyone?).
I think Glimmer would be pretty much at the same level as unicorn Twilight, obviously not at the level of alicorn over powered Twilight.
3595959 The argument in the blog is about sheer power level on a Starlight vs Twilight scale. As I stated, she's talented, and I will be the first to say that she uses at least levitation much more efficiently than Twilight does on herself, but it's not rationally correct to say that they're equals in power.
3595974 I'm not saying she's shit. Where exactly did I say that?
3595968
If anything, the most difficult thing you can do with telekinesis is hold a great multitude of objects (especially living things) and use them with precision and skill.
Making Rarity the second most powerful unicorn in the show :P
3595978 Explicity? Nope. Sorry, my bad, the terrible habit of analyzing a persistent behavior.
3595975
OK, if the argument is strictly about "how many gigajoules of energy can each put out?" then fine, no argument. It's also effectively meaningless. If it's about "can Starlight compete with Twilight on a functional basis?" (be that combat or some other field of endeavor) then the debate is still very much open.
Twilight too OP, Pls Nerf.
Any conversation about power levels is pointless. Twilight is the main protagonist and will always overcome any challenge no matter how outclassed she may be. Although for someone whose special talent is supposed to be magic, she never seems to create any spells unlike how the "villains" did.
3596011 well but... they haven't created any spells. Starlight modified a spell by Starswirl, and she learned the cutie mark removal spell.
3595995 I'd say that in magical knowledge, Twilight clearly trumps Starlight. In combat... unless she learns to actually fight, Twilight will always be weak.
3595945 Or, even better... Remember when Teilight levitated a massive star-bear-thing by herself and then saying she couldn't self-levitate because she's so much heavier than said eldritch abomination?
Yeah, me neither.
3595981 If I may add...levitating a slew of objects while moving (either the caster or the objects).
While I see your point and it's a good one. It's built on assuming that one's magic poll is tied to strength. If that's the case you'd be right but if not up until they reach their limits (low magic left) spells could very well be the same level power wise regardless of magic previously used (until the limit as previously mentioned) meaning that while possessing a smaller pool of magic Starlight could very well be on the same level strength wise. Not meaning to say you're wrong I'm just noting the possibility that you could be.
3596026
OK, so the question once again hinges on "what do we mean by 'power'?"
Historical example: It's 1993. Who is more powerful, Russia or the United States?
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/US_and_USSR_nuclear_stockpiles.svg
Russia has twice as many nuclear warheads. Russia wins!
Wait, no. Russia's missiles are crap. America wins!
Wait, no. Russia knows its missiles are crap, so it has much more powerful warheads than American missiles. Russia wins!
Wait, no. Russia is a post-Soviet basketcase. 80% of their missiles and warheads probably don't even work. America wins!
Wait, no. Russia still has more megatons pointed at the US than the other way around. Russia wins!
Wait, no...
On and on it goes. What do we mean by "powerful"?
Much of the problem is in that alicorns have been shown to both have incredlible power and the opposite. For example; Chrysalis defeated Celestia, yet all 4 alicorns' magic is approx. as powerfull as all other lifeforms' magic in the entirity of equestria. If we apply that hereEven if the alicorn magic isn't distributed evenly, (most likely, I'd place Twilight at 3rd place) Twilight's slice would be bigger than Starlight's; considering how many more are sharing the same amount on the non-alicorn side.
(Sorry for eventual incoherence; I'm basically asleep atm)
3596057 It makes sense. The series hardly ever has a coherent show of consistency with those things, although in the case of Chrysalis, it's generally accepted that Celestia didn't go all out. Although it's never really said if that was the case or if it's just fandom assumption.
3596058
Counter-example in the same episode: with no Mane Six to save the day, Celestia was completely defeated by Chrysalis. She had no reason to hold back in that case, but Chrysalis now owns Canterlot three years later, with the surviving ponies hiding in the Everfree.
3596048
National power is a vague concept at the best of times and is a very poor analogy.
3596076 Counter that counter with: Celestia was unaware Cadance had been replaced. Chrysalis would have had an easier time taking her down or controlling the situation more subtly.
3595968 And yet you never see any other unicorn self-levitate, no matter how useful it would be. Seems like it is at least as difficult as teleportation. Don't get me wrong, Twilight the alicorn is definitely stronger than Starlight the unicorn, Starlight just one those fights because Twilight sucks at combat magic.
But there's no way unicorns wouldn't be self-levitating a lot more over the last 5 seasons if it was actually available to them. And I don't recall Twilight self-levitating as a unicorn, was she able to fly around for hours?
3596089
Fair enough.
The Sombraverse, however, significantly nerfed Celestia's presumed combat abilities.
-Sombra returns, same as before. Celestia is warned. Shiny and Cadance go north.
-Sombra spikes Shiny's horn, wears Cadance down, takes the Empire.
-One mad unicorn and a handful of Crystal Ponies from the frozen wastes defeat the Equestrian armed forces and successfully take over half of Equestria, (presumably) neutralizing Luna in the process.
-Celestia has to turn all of Southern Equestria into a war-economy hellhole, leads her remaining forces personally, and is still getting worn down by Sombra (who doesn't even seem to be engaging in combat himself).
Let's not even start on Celestia's failure to do anything about Flim and Flam destroying Ponyville over the last three years.
3596092
Twilight never really needed it. The only reason Starlight was levitating herself was because she needed to get to and around Cloudsdale to stop the sonic rainboom. Presumably she didn't know the cloud-walking spell Twilight knew. Levitation is the inefficient way around the problem of Cloudsdale.
3596092 Starlight never flew for hours. Again, she's in the same spot with the same magic every time. Starlight might have more experienced and be definitely talented, but Twilight has been shown to do way, way, waaay more powerful things as a unicorn than just floating around.
3596080
And magical pony power is crystal clear? Yeah, the ongoing disagreement here certainly supports that.
Here's a semi-relevent question; Since she never came across her childhood friend again, is it reasonable to think she may very well be self-taught? Whether she's more powerful or not, holding her own against Twilight and modifying one of Star Swirl's spells, scroll format or not is pretty impressive...
3596108 I think it was established that she had a decent amount of knowledge from the beginning, given that she references obscure magical objects to Twilight in the season opener, and again, I did say she has talent. I never said she was unimpressive.
Nice Blog, Wanderer D! :)
Actually glad I read this, because I was kinda peeved about how the (supposedly) most powerful unicorn (now probably weakest alicorn, yet still more powerful than any unicorn?) almost loses a fight against just another Unicorn who, while talented and above average power, should be far inferior to Twilight.
I had been under the impression that it was the same Starlight, as she seemed to remember their previous encounters, at least to some extent. Otherwise, why would she know to dodge and/or shield herself against Twilight's Crystal spell after she was hit the first time? It may be a thread I'm trying to grab at, but I think it's relatively valid at least. Even with that, however, I'm willing to accept what's in the blog, as it sounds like the most realistic version of what happened.
3596105 So how does she keep learning from Twilight's tactics then? She certainly seems to remember all of Twilight's previous incarnations.
3596103 Not just Twilight, every other unicorn. No other unicorn in five seasons has had a solid need for self-levitation? Remember the series premier, when Twilight almost fell off a cliff? You know what would have been really useful? Self-levitation.
3596092
Just a random comment: Here's my idea/theory as to how self-levitation works.
Thing of it like an "Anchor Point." When you lift something with a hand, the anchor point is yourself. The principle is the same with telekinesis: The anchor point is the unicorn themselves, or even just the horn. Telekinesis, in this way, is just like a very long hand. And, as you know, you can't lift yourself. Try taking hold of your feet and lift yourself off of the ground. Not possible, is it? Now, if you were attached to a rope, which went over a wooden beam or something, and you pulled the other end of the rope, the Anchor Point had changed to where the Wooden Beam is. You're still lifting yourself, but because the point where your anchor point (your weight, you could say) is... "centered" (?) when you use the rope to lift yourself, you can do it.
Now, self-levitating is simply moving the anchor point to above you, to a place that isn't yourself, grasping yourself in the telekinetic field and pulling yourself by moving the anchor point.
...I don't know how well of a job I did explaining it, or if it even makes sense, but I hope it did xP
Another critical thing to their relative power levels is that Starlight's task, power recharge or no, is far easier than Twilight's. Starlight only needs to change just about anything that happens in the past. Twilight needs to keep everything basically exactly the same. And that's in an environment where their very presence is a source of change. As long as Starlight isn't made completely immobile as soon as Twilight goes to the past in such a way that she'll remain so for until time runs out, she basically wins right there. Keeping out of that situation certainly isn't trivial, but it doesn't take as much power as putting your foe in that situation. I mean, seriously, entire plots have been build around people trying and failing to stop themselves from changing the past. Stopping someone else from doing so is downright imposible.