Merged Crossover Worlds - a rant. · 8:31pm Nov 12th, 2015
Or maybe a ponderous blabber? Nah.
More than one time I've heard people say that crossovers never work. Which is, to put it blandly, bullshit. Sorry. It is.
Like any story, however, whether it works or not has to do more with how the elements of the story are handled than the elements themselves... and that falls completely on the author. So if the story fails, it's not that people automatically look at an Ed, Edd n Eddy/MLP crossover and know it's going to be bad.
...
Okay, I'm pushing it with that one. The point is, that no matter how awful E^3 is, it's the author's responsibility to somehow make it work. In this case by dropping the thing altogether and sitting down to rethink their lives.
Anyway, I'm here to talk specifically about some of the inherent issues that come with merged universes and when these crossovers work—in my opinion—and when they don't.
You might ask yourselves why my opinion matters. I ask, who else here is going to tell it to you as it is?
Continuing... given that I'm trying to be specific, by merged I mean that the crossover is not just two (or more) individual elements of different universes in a setting where they each maintain their individuality and just happen to be there.
Sparkle's No. 1 Assistant would be a good example of what I don't mean. It's a single dude from another universe that landed in Equestria.
But what a dude!
Stardust & Mente Materia are a good example of a middle-ground, but not what I would consider a true merged universe, given that both MLP and Xcom maintain individual characteristics.
And don't even mention Displaced. Seriously, it's not even a real crossover.
A merged universe means, in this context, that the universes and unique elements of each are both part of this third, mixed world. For excellent examples we have GaPJaxie's Siren Song/Daring Do & Aquaman's Harmony.
I think you get the idea.
Anyway, my issue with certain crossovers like these has to do with suspension of disbelief and just how far it can be pushed before it snaps and whips back into my face. And oddly enough it happens less with merged worlds where the characters slowly discover what's going on (even if it's violent) as in Fallout Equestria (which by the way is departed enough by time and backstory from the MLP:FIM series that it seems plausible) than universes where you expect me to believe that same-personality Twilight Sparkle is a freaking SPARTAN. Or a member of the Wolf Pack.
There is an intrinsic part of good storytelling where you understand that your character's life up to that point has molded who they are today through experiences, social influence and education/training. Very similar to a concept called "reality".
Which means, basically, that if Fluttershy grew up as a member of the Knights of Takhisis, she might still be somewhat kind... but she's not going to be the same shut-in, uber-sensitive, scaredy pony that is afraid to look at an angry mouse, much less an enemy. She might prefer not to fight, but... if she's made it to any rank in an army of evil, she's not going to be the exact same Fluttershy from the show. (And yes, I know that random comedy can play with this, but we're assuming serious fics here.)
And this is where suspension of disbelief enters the equation.
A good merged universe will give you insight into these characters, and given that it's fan fiction, you have to somehow keep a semblance of familiarity... Twilight should be a studious/genius character, but if she's already a member of the Normandy, she's already got friends and combat brothers/sisters who she would probably die for.
She might like some solitude to study, but you know Shepard is already romancing her somehow. It's unlikely moronic to assume that she would be the exact, same, hopeless recluse she was before being deported to Ponyville in canon.
Applejack the Brood Queen might be the Queen B*tch of the Universe, but will still have her bugs plant Apple Trees, because that's really the only thing she does besides fail at lying. Otherwise, she wouldn't be Applejack.
Pinkie Pie might organize the best parties in Menzoberranzan, but they'll involve more barbed whips, questionable moral implications every half hour, weird spider-ponies and plenty of backstabbing and wrist crossbows with venom-laced bolts. It'll be fun!
The point is, if your main character is part of something greater that has changed the fundamental nature of your universe, by definition, it means that it's not going to be the same and you shouldn't treat it as if it were. And this is true for Alternate Universes as well, but an elemental and absolutely necessary aspect to crossovers like these.
You see, there has to be a difference in who they are. Your ponies will know different history, different technology, different deities even. Hell, they might even use the three seashells instead of toilet paper. It's a merged universe. It requires some world building to make it congruent and it's your mission as an author to solve this conundrum.
Bottom line is, if you fail to make the characters believable in a merged setting, it's not your reader's fault that they dislike your work. It's your inability to grasp a basic concept of storytelling and your unwillingness to put the necessary effort and thought into it to justify its existence.
Think I got the gist of this...
Crossovers can work, if the author does it well, depending on the type of crossover.
If the author fails to do so well, then it is all on the author, and not the readers?
Did I sum it up accurately, WD?
Nice rant and all but...
36.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7vjfpMkIa1r79nqko1_500.jpg
Well said. If you'll pardon the shameless plug, I found this one of the most fun parts of planning The Implicit Neighs. Figuring out which bits of a character are nature, which are nurture, and how changing the latter will change the person. Same beginning, different journey. Where does it lead? Heck, we even have a great example of it in canon with how differently the two Twilights turned out.
>Aquaman's Harmony
Didn't that get canceled like years ago?
You make some excellent points when it comes to crossovers an AUs. That was an interesting read and also helps explain why some of these kinds of stories work while others miss the mark. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to share this.
Well said, but not so easily done. Getting a character to still be that character while fitting in with that setting can be quite difficult. I think, before an author even tries to write it, s/he needs to consider if that character can be believable merged with the other universe. There's a point where the character would have to be so different that it becomes an OC with canon skin.
As a crossover writer, this makes all the good sense.
Since I mainly do crossovers, I agree with this message.
I agree with this blog about hybridizing characters across settings when building crossovers, and I agree that if you're going to have a character that belongs to both worlds (rather than two worlds meeting up), this is the sort of work you need to do to make a story believable.
I think it's worth mentioning, though, that there's a certain level of believability attached to shoving two worlds together anyway, and that how you handle the joining can also have a pretty large impact on reader engagement. Some worlds just join more easily (e.g. most sci-fi crossovers, where the only item you really have to add to your disbelief roster is that Equestria exists as an otherwise undiscussed world inside some other fictional universe). Some (say Ed, Edd, n Eddy) need a lot more work to bring into alignment. I'm sure given a sufficient amount of words (and/or monkeys with typewriters) you can find some idea that'll blend any two worlds, and even give that idea enough depth to make it believable, but it might be a lot of work. Honestly, I think the whole world-joining topic is interesting on its own. Maybe if I have some free time tonight, I might go write up some thoughts.
Also 3538070:
I'm happy to pardon the shameless plug. It's taking all my willpower not to drop one of my own.
I've read enough that at this point I'd argue any crossover can be written well if handled correctly. Heck, I'm reading a Pony/Godzilla crossover at the moment that is actually pretty good (assuming that you ignore the colored dialogue
).
"Everyone's got their own opinion." Q.E.D.
I agree with what you said in the rant as a whole, though.
Objectively false
I realize suspension of disbelief is important, and I know merged universes have to run by the same or similar rules unless the crossing over from one world to another takes place.
I don't know why, but I can easily see the mentally advanced series, Friendship is witchcraft, and Friendship is magic, as taking place in the same universe if we accept the fact that Twilight Sparkle is a psychopath/mary sue with goldfield syndrome or PTSD as a result of something that happened during the war... Spike is Twilight's Jiminy cricket, Celestia for some reason feels guilty and/or responsible and has set everything up for Twilight's therapy with the assumption that becoming an alicorn would fix her mental block. and throughout the course of the loops Sweetie Belle has been replaced a couple of times first by a demon, then by a robot, and later by a doppliner. Either that, or she merged with one of her dopplegangers. To that effect Celestia actually does plot out all the weekly villains and season ending adventures up to a point where she plays fate... which is how the time traveling Twilight couldn't possibly set up a paradox or alter the timeline. And, it still works at Tech Level 7 plus H2Ik which in my estimation is 1940's through 60's era comic book technology.
As for folding other series into cannon that has to be a little more direct. The rules for Academy City, for instance, are that technology has matched if not surpassed magic; you cannot use both Magic and Psychic abilities because to use one negates the ability to use the other with out severe physical damage and painful consequences. And, since knowledge of the arcane is limited to religious institutions almost all known magicians are saints, nuns, or paladins whereas science is somewhat demonic in nature. So then you also have to figure out how to organize a whole religion of an alternate universe to fit into a world were friendship is a religion.
However with another universe that has much simpler rules, like SHAZAM! or The World Only God Knows (shameless plug I know) the worlds are almost too simple. With SHAZAM! you have an orphaned and homeless child given the powers of a mythical God and have to rely on the idea that the 3000+ year old wisdom of Solomon is still relevant... For some reason I can't help but think of 'Prime' the tickle me Emo from Ultraforce, or Superboy Prime as described by Linkara in the same light as this homeless messiah. The only difference between their personalities is that one can appeal to pity and the others can't by virtue that some of the behavior is excusable despite the lack of a competent guardian. With The World God Only Knows an autistic and withdrawn social isolate, who's only specialty is playing video games under the alias of God, is selected, hired, forced, or tricked into a contract with a demon more air headed than Batsy Fluffentuft to recover 60,000+ souls that have escaped from hell, because of his unmatched skill in wooing the A.I. ladies in online simulators. Again, the protagonist appeals to pity because no one ever remembers him or how he helps others to heal or reach their sometimes divine potential...
I agree wholeheartedly. I would like to point out that this also goes for the setting. One of the reasons a lot of MLP crossovers fail for me is that it is hard to reconcile Equestria's apparent geocentric system with 'normal' space. I find it more believable that Equestria is in a pocket dimension, separate from the rest of the universe, or whatever floats your imagination...
3538179 Agreed, I remember laughing at Edd plenty of times.
3538300 I remember some Halo cross had Equestria inside a Dyson sphere.
Harry Leferts has some interesting stories, like a Evengelion Cross (Shinji's Nightmare) as well as a Harry Potter cross that actually didn't make my eyes bleed with horrible OC's(The Wizard and the Lonely Princess). Do you know how hard it is to find the latter?
As for the Nightmare story, it was one of the first to make me not hate Nim and start thinking of other possibilities. I still used evil nightmare for my current main story, but meh, it just worked that way. That's one of the things I liked about not hearing anything in particular about her fall, it could have been a demonic possession, it could have been Luna cracking under years of loneliness (at least then she had someone to talk to, even if it was a split personality) or some bodysnatching parasite.
Brother!
I only like doing full crossovers, because I figured everyone else has done character crossovers already.
Doesn't mean I don't suck at them, but I hope one improving.
Can you point me in a direction for this story? Or similar? (The Forgotten Realms setting, not the whips and moral setting
)LOL
3538646 I haven't seen any, but if you do find one, let me know, I'd love to take a look!
3538061 In the "who to blame for sucky crossovers" part of the rant, yes.
3538064 3538179 3538176 To each their own, I guess. It honestly never did anything for me.
3538070 You forgot to link it.
3538078 Doesn't mean it's not good!
3538086 Always glad to rant!
3538089 Yep, but that's half the fun! Making sure it fits somehow makes it a more interesting piece that doesn't have everyone stopping because it's totally unbelievable!
3538100 3538122
3538135 Well, let me know if you write your own blog about it! I'd love to see what you think on the whole thing!
3538160 Colored dialogue is a bit much for me, but sometimes if the story is good enough I can force myself past it.
3538214 Hm, but the examples you brought up are not merged crossovers. If anything they're all Alternate Universe fics, and the Shazam one seems more like a single element or two thrown in than an actual merged world.
3538300 perhaps, or you could say that it's an otherwise doomed world kept only alive by the efforts of alicorns who compensate for the lack of rational physics?
3538371 Most Evangelion stuff makes me cringe tbh, but for the second... yeah, sorta. I have tried to find good HP/Anything from time to time.
3538522 We're all hopefully improving
3538100
As another crossover writer, I agree.
3538714
I am not good at promoting myself.
3538714
Yes, but when you merge universes together your still create an alternate universe uniquely its own as the rules cannot be faithful to all points of origin.
Again, in my opinion, it depends on complexity. The more complex the universe being folded into the batter, the greater the number of playsets and characters that have to be used, the likely hood is greater that the 'half baked' structure will collapse during world building in sandbox mode. For instance making Machinima (or using stock game footage to make a movie like Rooster Teeth ) is more difficult than working with people or creating/designing your own unique models from scratch using whatever animation software you prefer because the development models have the same limits or scripts provided by the animators that created them. Unless the goal is limited animation or you have the patience to modify the existing scripts and character designs you're stuck with the limitations of the other animator or designer. I'm not sure this is the best explanation, because I know there are some people who could replicate Jurassic Park with stuff they picked up at a garage sale...
In fact, once saw a video made by David Spade (Dickie Roberts/Prince Kuzco) wherein he remade the entire trailer from the first Jurassic Park movie with the same materials in miniature. No special effects, just toys, cardboard, marker pens, and paint.
3538714 Or the primary star died in such a manner that triggered a gas Planet into a small star while the MLP world was shielded somehow. The trick would be coming up with something believable without being too convoluted. I guess my point was the fact you have to blend the worlds as well as the characters...
3538934 Nah, I get your point
I was just throwing out a theory.
3538371 The "Equestria in a Dyson sphere" fic you're probably thing of is a Mass Effect crossover - the First Meetings universe - this is the current story of it.
This "rant" gives some food for thoughts since I am helping out on a crossover story (This one) and I think it manages itself pretty well.
3538974 you know one of my best all time favorite (besides Past sins) is a spider-man crossover and is done by maximus_reborn... you should check him out if you haven't already.
3539146 I remember that one. I kinda fell off the story when he started talk in' time travel. What's the point of going into the future to help? That kinda thing's always been a turn off for me.
3538646
3538714
It's not the same, but there's always John Biles' Mystara's Little Ponies: Friendship is Adventuring, which is also a really, really good example of what WandererD is talking about here.
In the story, set in the D&D world of Mystara (also known as the Known World; if you played the Red Box D&D back in the day, also known as BECMI D&D, it's the same place), Equestria replaces one of the most boring and underutilized human nations, and it fits in smoothly. The Mane Six are an adventuring party officially sanctioned by Celestia and Equestrian government (the Wonderbolts are the same, only higher level and all-pegasus), there are ponies living outside Equestria (the magocratic Principalities of Glantri has a sub-domain populated by unicorns), they fit into the history of the world (created by ancient magical experiments, enslaved by orcs in the past and liberated by Celestia and Luna, etc.)... There are also some good human OCs, including the main narrator, who ends up in a relationship with Rarity... and it makes perfect sense and isn't obnoxious!
(If you can't tell, I like the story, a lot. Comes with having played a lot of D&D in that setting.
)
Eh, I'm still not exactly fond of crossovers. There are only a few that stand out for me.
Not one for crossovers much myself mainly due to just how awful some are or just how some simply drop ponies into whatever universe and have them play with the toys in that universe. This is why I find it pretty surprising when I come across one that really manages to capture the spirit of BOTH worlds without drastically changing what made each seperate universe appealing.
This is why I'm pretty proud of how Railway Crusaders has been handled so far. It really manages to adapt the best aspects of both universes to create what one would have found normally strange to feel so oddly right.
My memory isn't so good so I can't recall any other crossovers at the moment that fit this seemingly perfect harmony between two franchises. Even if some people do stick too closely to the source material which for those who enjoyed the original it just basically amounts to reading the what already happened but with pony names on your characters instead.
But yeah, really is hit or miss given how varied people's education and creative minds go. How well they know each source and how they approach it. This is generally just how everything works but I get what you're trying to say. After all, anything CAN work. Just isn't all that often.
On another note, are you planning another crossover story?
In dropping Wrex into MLP you're writing a slowly increasing crossover by having the mane cast gradually morph into something very much resembling a possible Normandy-crew, complete with the absolutely central to ME2 loyalty missions. That's one of the main appeals to me. I haven't seen a crossover done this way anywhere else, so apart from being hilarious it is also very novel. Quite a rare treat.
FO:E is masterfully done because of the complete merging of the two universes where the known Equestria has turned into the setting of Fallout, changing the mane six' personalities along the way but keeping them in character. To me it also manages to remove the elements that really test your dispension of disbelief from both universes. That is what makes it outstanding. It even uses several Alicorns with powerful magic that cannot really be killed (except for something totally mundane like dropping something very heavy on them). And a godlike being that is vaporized by the equivalent of a thermonuclear explosion.
Oh, and I agree with everything you wrote.
I want to read this story now.
O...kay.
You should write that story. The one about Pinkie the Priestess of Lloth. Like, right now.
Applejack the Queen of Blades takes second priority.
See there are 3 types of fanfic.
1: Canon Compliant.
2: Canon Divergent.
3: Alternate Universe.
Crossovers, being fanfic, can fall under any of these classifications, and merged universes like you are talking about are almost always AUs.
You caould argue that FoE is Canon Divergent since it takes place so far in the future after almost everypony died of contagious idiocy.
As yet another crossover writer, I also agree with all this.
I mean, you don't drop Rarity into Mass Effect and have her walk out exactly the same pony - the whole point of such an exercise would be to explore how being on the Normandy changes her, and how she changes the Normandy's interior and fashion on the Citadel. So why would you write her as exactly the same pony if she'd been there from the day she were born?
3538714
You asked? I delivered.
3539196 i just want you to know. i was lead to believe that he went to a different dimension but was a possible future timeline if he doesn't go back
(p.s i hope that was respectful if not sorry)
3542467 no worries. I just read the intro and decided it wasn't for me. I liked the first one, but this one fell short for me. It happens, and I'm sure I've lost a few readers myself over the life of substitute.
3538160 Wait, do you mean literally colored? Like this?
3542575 well he is doing one more and this is takes place after esra and follows up where the main story left off
Ps you don't have to read the story story to understand this new one
3542811 Yes.
Well, specific colors per character. Thankfully I can mostly ignore it since I text-to-speech listen to a lot of stuff these days.
3542811 That was funnier than it should have been.