Bronies put a lot of weight into the MLP universe... · 2:25pm Sep 19th, 2014
I never understood why it is that bronies seem to require some over-dramatized explanation for everything.
When I wrote the Celestia story, this is what I was considering. Despite every story out there of people who are just so magically talented that they live exceptionally long lives, bronies seem to want to think of Luna and Celestia as immortals, if not outright goddesses.
In similar fashion, nearly every foe they have ever fought (save for Sombra) has been believed to be the same.
Some would say they are treated like deities -- those people must never have watched movies of kings and queens interacting with peasants. Some say they have the powers of deities -- yes, they move the sun and moon, but ordinary unicorns did that at one time too.
I don't know, I just feel that people often feel the need to blow everything up to some sort of monstrosity of a story. Can't something be simple? Can't the explanation just be 'I'm pretty good at magic so I lived longer?'
Maybe I'm asking too much. But seriously, sometimes the immortal alicorn stuff annoys me when it becomes dependent on something that may not be entirely accurate.
I don't think I know a single person that believes Celestia and Luna are outright Immortal. Nor that they live long simply because they are good at magic.
Since we have no conclusive answer from the show. It depends entirely upon the story being told if they are or are not. Either way, people will keep picking what ever works best regardless of this because there is no 'Show Accurate' answer.
But I bet that most of the stories on FimFic would be unchanged if they were as most people don't touch on it in their writing.
2467012
I'm the polar opposite. I almost always seem to stumble on it in fics, animations, etc. where the writers declare the alicorns, Discord, and even Chrysalis as deities. I hardly ever see anyone consider them just simply powerful magicians or anything of that like. Sometimes it's like most fans of MLP have never read Tolkien or something.
Yep, that's probably true. I've ticked the Tolkien box, even the Silmarillion. Its probably the types of stories we prefer. The sciency-scifi ones probably push the lore more than those that are Equestria based.
2467794
It's not even science fiction that seems to dictate the fan reaction. It's more along the lines of power fantasy. They take characters who might simply be the Merlins of the pony universe and turn them into a pantheon. Then of course the whole alicorn immortality thing springs in, where for some reason a case study on Celestia seems to define the entire alicorn race.
I think people just like to come up with the simplest, and at the same time most convoluted answers they possibly can.
2467728 Weren't virtually all Magicians in Tolkien, good and bad, immortal demigods? Valar & Maiar and the like?
2468399
The Tolkien wizards are a different thing entirely -- they're a unique breed, and it is outright stated they are like a lower form of divinity. That said, they could still die, they could be corrupted. They'r spirits, but not deities. Additionally, not all magic users are such -- it is hinted at that there are mortal spell-casters, though I don't know if any are actually ever shown. Tolkien's stories tend to follow a specific group far as I've seen (correct me if I am wrong, after all, I've only fairly recently taken an interest in Tolkien's works).
Most western fantasy will often have magicians who simply become so skilled at magic their lifespans increase exponentially. But that's not a simple answer, and it isn't something that can be used to dramatic effect (not as easily as the 'immortal against your will' concept), so I think such an explanation is often ignored for the alicorns. People prefere the story that lets them add a sense of tragedy or depth to the character that, more often than not, is just overburdening and more along the lines of power fantasy than anything.
2468887 You're right that Wizards in Tolkien are a unique breed, they are immortal in the sense of being ageless, not immortal in the sense of being indestructible. They also are charged with protecting mortals, primarily from corrupted versions of themselves (Sauron is definitely a bit Nightmare Moon, down to the evil=Lots of Armor trope). They may not be able to actually move the sun & moon, but they are given domains over specific things. There's a reason that every time someone makes a LoTR crossover fic, they make the alicorns Valar.
Don't get me wrong, you're right that western fantasy has lots of nigh-immortal archmages. And Sombra, especially in the comics, is displayed in this trope. But honestly, Tolkien is the single worst example to bring up here, because he makes it so that to be a powerful wizard, you must be a demigod yourself.
2468993
Do the Tolkien wizards rule entire nations in an autocracy that will span millenia (you know, the morally good ones)? Do they turn mortals into more wizards? Do they have the family capable of leaving behind great great great great grand nephews?
My point is this. People want the simplest, most overly dramatic explanation they can come up with. They're simply not pleased with alicorns being little more than a mix of the three races. They want a power fantasy.
Imagine Celestia and Luna are immortal. Does that have to mean all alicorns are? Does that mean they are immortal because they are alicorns? Isn't it possible they just got that way through magical talent? That maybe they are nothing more than exceptionally powerful magicians who've managed to extend their lifespans? That had they never gone into spell-casting, they'd have died about the same time as anypony else?
2469150 Almost all of them except Gandalf have ruled their own little nations (and that morally good qualifier is a dodge). You're right that as far as I know, they've never made a mortal a Valar, although taking Frodo away to the Grey Lands at the end where he will never age is a little similar. They do have families and interbreed with mortals, so yes, they may have 52nd degree nephews and the like.
There's two sources outside the TV show that impact this: The Journal of the Two Sisters & the Reflections Comic arc. The Journal book, about a young Celestia & Luna, makes it clear they appear out of nowhere as alicorns, with a mission to protect ponies. That book makes them sound an awful lot like Valar.
On the other hand, the Reflections comic arc lends weight to your point about them possibly being powerful immortal magicians, because it shows us an alternative version of Sombra. This Sombra is still a unicorn, but he has lived for over 1000 years and single-handedly fought Evil Celestia to a draw over that time period, while acting as the benevolent King of Equestria. He does seem to be an exceptionally powerful wizard and nothing more, but able to match the alicorns in power. Now, the fact that he isn't an alicorn himself may be that its some sort of divine ascension, or maybe only mares can be alicorns, I don't know. But I suspect the answer may be that alicorns aren't divine, but Celestia & Luna are.
2469506
Did they really? In so far as I can tell, I've only found hints at Sauron ruling anything, and he's corrupt. And if you consider 'morally good' a dodge, let's try this instead -- not an evil, power hungry bastard.
I've read Reflections, and it doesn't hint anything at Celestia's history -- only hints that Sombra might be kept alive by magical means at most. As for Journals, while I've not read it, what I've been able to glimpse from the internet suggests that they didn't just appear, fully grown with powers fully intact and smiles on their faces saying 'we've come to help' -- they were blank flanks who were asked by Star Swirl to rule Equestria because Alicorns are embodiments of all three tribes. That doesn't say 'demigod' to me, that says 'right place at the right time'. Heck, it even says that they might simply 'age differently'. I'm not sure what that means, although I assume that with an innately stronger magical build (having magics of all three tribes) they'd likely have greater lifespans.
We've also been lead to believe that there have, at some point or another, been other alicorns, such as the alicorn that was romanced by an old Earth Pony king (Hearts and Hooves Day). All of this tells us that Luna and Celestia aren't likely the only alicorns to ever have lived. Rather or not there have ever been many is unknown, but it seems to me that, if nothing else, the sisters are far from being the first. In fact, one might be able to argue they could simply be the last true-blooded alicorns.
2469658 By dodge, I meant that I don't see what being good and evil has to do with their basic nature.
Sure, they powered up over time, like Gandalf the Grey became Gandalf the White. Nevertheless, we don't meet their parents, it seems like they just appear when they are needed most. You're right, it does imply there were earlier alicorns, just like in LoTR there were a lot more Valar trudging around the world in ages past. What we don't hear about is alicorns/Valar dying off.
The other thing is, Starswirl the Bearded is generally shown to be the most powerful mortal spellcaster of all time (well, him or Sombra) but all unicorns, including him, are horribly drained by moving the Sun/Moon. Celestia and Luna are not. This doesn't seem to be because as kids they were already smarter spellcasters than Starswirl, but that their very essence as alicorns lets them move the Sun and Moon on their own, just as we get to see Twilight as an alicorn move the Sun and Moon without being drained.
2469871
The sisters didn't just 'power up' though, did they? They were blank flanks. That is not a symbol of some power jump - it's a symbol of understanding one's talent, destiny, or whatever story have you. Either way, we can assume they were inexperienced in a way that is similar to youth. I imagine if they were divine agents, they would have all of that figured out already.
Celestia and Luna are capable of moving the sun and moon by themselves, yes, but it only drained a unicorn to do it if they did it alone -- at least to the point it did Starswirl when he tried it. I'm not arguing that they're not powerful. In fact, that kind of serves my argument. However, is it outright stated their 'essence' as alicorns allows it? Because if it isn't, I pose to you that maybe their bonds to the sun/moon simply make it easier on them, and that rather than being five times stronger than the strongest unicorns, they just use up less magic to do the task.
Not saying they aren't five times stronger than the strongest unicorns, though if they are I'd be sad because that means My Little Pony is slowly turning into Dragon Ball Z.
And Twilight moving heavenly spheres doesn't count. When she moved the sun and moon, she had the powers of Celestia, Luna, and Cadence; of course it'd be easy for her to move them.
2471839 I didn't read the Journal either, just a bunch of reviews and commentary, but as I recall Starswirl specifically states that the reason they are not drained by moving the Sun and Moon is because they are alicorns.
2472067
Clearly, the only way to get the answer for sure is to actually read the thing, cause what I read said that Celestia and Luna just felt an affinity for the sun and moon respectively. Might have to check my local bookstore next time I go out for a run.
In any case, however, I'm not even sure the Chapter Books count unless they're considered canon. I mean, in the comics it's hinted that Luna became Nightmare Moon from being possessed, but in the cartoons it's implied to be purely her own avarice, so the Chapter Books might be one of those 'grain of salt' type deals anyway.
2474139 You have a point there, I generally like as much canon as possible, show>movie>comics>novels, but I do disregard parts of the comics for that exact reason.
(I like crazy Luna more than posessed Luna).
I suspect we will have to agree to disagree for now, until the Regal Sisters come up in season 5, whereapon we can resume this argument, each insisting that the appearence proves our point!
2474203
Maybe, but I do have one more thing to point out that kind of makes me wonder a few things; Twilight never had to adjust to her magic (that we are shown) when she became an alicorn. Not like when she had to absorb the magics of Celestia, Luna, and Cadence, anyway.
We can assume this means one of a few things; that either ascension did nothing to her control of unicorn magic (assuming alicorn magic is simply an amalgam of all three tribes), that alicorns may not be that much more powerful than a unicorn of equal skill (barring special talents and maybe the effects of all three tribes in a single pony), or that Twilight somehow subconsciously adjusted to her transformation in a way she could not in absorbing the other princess' magics.
Naturally, I suspect the third one will be the favored theory, because the previous two don't turn Twilight into a cosmic force.
What leads me to believe Celestia and Luna are deities is the flag presented at the end of the Hearths Warming Eve Pageant. The flag clearly depicts two Alicorns that I believe are Celestia and Luna. Here's why I believe they chose this symbol for the flag.
While Clover, Pansy, and Cookie were telling stories in the frozen cave, they realized that a few stories were just variations of each other, strengthening the idea that they were more alike then they thought. However, there was one story that was the same between the three of them. The Tale of the Two Sisters. The story presents the two as being the spirits of the sun and moon watching the world. Because of this common story, the three tribes chose this to be their national symbol.
Later, when Discord ruled, the two decided they couldn't simply watch and do nothing, so they shed their celestial forms, and became semi-mortal. From there, they ruled Equestria until the present day. That's my head canon anyways.
While I'm thinking about it, have they ever mentioned Unicorns moving the sun and moon in the show? I haven't read the Journal yet, so I don't know that story.
2682860
Well, when they're the ruling bodies for an extended period of time, I suppose it makes sense. Plus, given Equestria is founded on the principal of harmony, it seems likely to me alicorns would be seen as an embodiment of that. I don't think the presence of a race on a flag marks them as deities, so much as symbolic.