Ways in Which Self-Insert Characters Fail To Realistically-Interact · 4:07pm Sep 11th, 2014
M1Garand8 wrote a blog post "Thoughts on Characters: Self-Insert & Author Avatars," to which I responded. This is an expansion of my response.
Under the heading of "lack of realistic interaction," the most common sins I see are either:
(1) Everypony loves the Self-Insert for no reason.
This is almost par for the course in SI love stories or harem fics. The love object (s) lose their canon personalities, ranging from displayed areas of interests to fundamental moralities, the better to fit in to the scenario in which they love the SI character. This is both degrading to the love object characters, and self-defeating from a story POV since if one wants to write a story about someone falling in love with (say) Twilight Sparkle, the story doesn't work if the character of Twilight Sparkle is changed to the point where she's basically somepony completely different from her canon self that just looks like Twilight Sparkle or has her skills and powers.
Remember, the Mane Six are beautiful young mares of relatively high social status. They are celebrities, heroines, ponies of importance. If they're single and haven't taken lovers, it's because they have high morals and high standards, not because they can't find a date for the prom, boo-hoo. The canon explicitly supports this in at least one case ("Simple Ways") and implicitly supports it in many scenes.
Another thing: even if this is a version of Equestria with a whopping great Stallion Dearth, so that Equestrian mares take for granted that they will probably form mare herds and then look for a stallion to share among them, this is still Love, not an impersonal assignment. They would have to really really really like the guy -- he would need to have something going for him beyond a warm body temperature and a male anatomy. And the Mane Six would be one of the highest-status mare herds around -- they would, in such a society, have their pick of stallions.
(2) Everypony hates the Self-Insert for no reason
This is the "Poor Widdle Me" scenario. Nopony understands me, nopony gives me a chance, I try to be nice and good to everypony but they just abuse me and keep on abusing me until I just want to die (*sniff*) 
Among the problems with this is that it's just an inversion of inflated importance. Why the heck are these characters, who have their own lives and concerns (including defending an industrial nation with tens of millions of inhabitants from various supernatural menaces) so focused on Mr. Selfie? If they don't like Selfie, why does he keep pestering them? Why doesn't he instead look for ponies who do like him? There is, after all, a nation of tens of millions of them out there.
Another problem is that it doesn't fit the canon characters. The Mane Six, and most of those with whom they associate, are rather nice Ponies. In the show, they are kind, helpful and polite to those they encounter. Why would they decide to persecute Mr. Selfie, when they don't persecute anypony else? Often, they are shown behaving quite out of character in such situations, such as the Ask Jade Shine in which Gilda and Rainbow Dash seriously beat and even slash the titular individual, for pretty much no reason other than that she doesn't like to fly much. (Yes, the Rainbow Dash who in canon is good friends with Fluttershy and Scootaloo. Why do you ask?)
Which leads directly to the third option:
(3) Everypony Hates the Self-Insert for VERY GOOD REASONS
This is what usually happens when an immature author tries to portray situation 1, situation 2 or sometimes a combination of situations 1 and 2. Mr. Selfie is revealed by his actions to be an annoying, obnoxious bastard who nopony in his right mind would like or trust, no matter how many complimentary or self-depreciatingly-complimentary adjectives or descriptions the writer slathers over his foul form.
A good example of this is all the Humans In Equestria who are pointlessly obnoxious to Celestia or the other Princesses. Guys, Celestia is an autocrat, but she is a beloved and revered autocrat. For good reason -- she is in fact kind, loving and wise. She's the sort of pony who anypony in their right mind would respect, even without traditions telling him to respect her. Heck, most Equestrians love her.
Why exactly would the Ponies of Equestria be expected to react with anything but outrage, revulsion and scorn toward anyone who treated Celestia with public disrespect? After all, as the acknowledged and widely-supported leader of their nation, she's their REPRESENTATIVE. He who pointlessly offends Celestia is pointlessly offending Equestria.
Likewise, persons who think that it's okay to just reach out and randomly touch Ponies. These are sapient beings, not brushable toys. They have a sense of their own dignity and personal space, just as do Humans. Yes, they are a physically-affectionate culture and as such accept degrees of physical intimacy from their FRIENDS that is uncommon in the modern West. Is Mr. Selfie their friend?
Probably not, if he just blew into town. Even Pinkie Pie, who is exceedingly friendly, would almost surely be creeped out if someone she just met was trying to climb all over her. Doubly so if Mr. Selfie's intent is actually sexual. (This actually figures in something I'm going to write as part of Pinkie Sense and Sensibility). And Pinkie would actually be the one of the Mane Six likeliest to have a kind and understanding reaction to someone getting fresh with her -- not that she'd say "yes," simply that she'd be nice about the way she said "no" in such a situation.
If Mr. Selfie treats other Ponies with disrespect (or, in some cases, makes felonious assaults upon their persons), why should he be surprised when they don't become his pals? Let alone lovers?
When I read some of these stories I really wonder sometimes how their authors function in real life -- do they walk up to strangers, insult them and then try to caress them? How do they go through their day without being punched in the face, or arrested?
So that's my short take on the issue.
They put up with Discord draconequus-handling them all the time, without complaining about that. They don't really like him though.
I've seen a story where humans' strange urge to scratch ponies behind the ears and pet their manes is a thing. Ponies complain, but put up with it because it secretly feels really good.
You know, if an immortal all powerfull draconequus with god powers and etiquette is not enough to impress Fluttershy then you know you had to TRY HARD mr selfie
2446278
Discord is actually a prime example of situation "3," or would be if he were Mr. Selfie. Most ponies hate him, and with good reason. The Mane Six put up with his annoying behavior because they're trying to reform him, and they're worried about him being far worse than merely annoying if he decides to stop being their friend.
Fluttershy actually likes most of Discord's physical displays of affection. And returns them. But then, I think that they are falling in love.
Well, it could, and especially if they liked the Human involved. In the best HiE story I've ever read, My Little Balladeer, there's a scene where John the Balladeer touches Fluttershy in some way that would be mildly intimate by Pony standards. This shocks her a little, but she actually doesn't resent it that much, in part because she realizes John didn't know the significance of what he was doing, and in part because she generally likes him anyway.
2446285
The amazing thing is that Fluttershy isn't particularly frightened of or hostile to Discord when they first meet one-on-one -- in the Canterlot Hedge Maze. This despite the fact that she knows he's a powerful enemy. Discord attacks her anyway, but it's possible that her calmness and kindness toward him back then planted the seeds of friendship toward her which blossomed later.
2446293
Yeah while i would love for some inner hints in that episode to be something meaningfull i cant help but to feel were overthinking this scene. Larson wanted to play a joke about Fluttershy being a doormat and he just cut to the case and made a transition from scared Fluttershy to calmed down in a second to not waste time. I do however feel there were some more meaningfull hints toward their relationship in Three's a Crowd and Twilight's Kingdom that weren't just played for jokes or pushing the plot
And yet they still can't get a cab in Manehattan or recognition at a Canterlot garden party.
In any case, yeah, some people don't quite get the whole "characterization" thing. Or they don't want to. It's called wish fulfillment for a reason; they'd rather tell they story they want to hear than a good one. Still ,these are good guidelines to avoid for those of us with more interest in the latter.
2446278
2446288 People walk up to other people and pet their hair, but the object of the petting seldom likes it. I used to have hip level hair, and for some reason, this was seen as a separate object and not a part of me. People would pick up my braid, pet it if it was loose--and actually, I was sort of steamed about it.
It was sort of like this:
mylittlefacewhen.com/media/f/img/mlfw3716-flutter_not_want.png
--and I was about as effective in communicating it. A few times, I did manage a "please do not pet my hair."
So even if the Mane Six character didn't verbally object, they probably wouldn't like it. And Rainbow Dash would strenuously object.
2446390 On the other hand, petting peoples' fuzzy heads is normal. Not complete strangers, sure, but acquaintances. Or picking at peoples' clothing. It's a familiar gesture but not an intimate one, and most people won't really care unless it's prolonged. Or repeated. Anything can get annoying if it happens all the time.
Rainbow generally doesn't like being touched, but I think most of the rest of the cast would put up with it (although only Pinkie would enjoy it).
2446336
I don't know about that. Discord's character was being established, so were some aspects of Fluttershy's, and one of the things that was being established was that Discord is surprisingly ineffective at dominating Fluttershy.
Discord's blasts may break mighty timbers but Fluttershy is a reed; she bends with the wind but she pops right up again. And the show had already established that Fluttershy has one of the strongest wills of any Pony, as far back as "Dragonshy."
This becomes important later because the only sort of being that can manage Discord is somepony who can awake his love, who is also strong-willed.
2446390
I like long hair. My wife has rather long hair. I like to pet it. So I understand the temptation to pet long hair.
However, I don't go randomly petting the long hair of other people, especially strangers, because I fear they wouldn't like it.
I think that writers of bad fanfics turn this off with regard to the Ponies because they want to pet the manes of the Ponies (understandable) and miss that if the Ponies were real, they'd be sapient beings with their own boundaries which they would dislike others to trangress.
I do think that the Ponies of Equestria in the age depicted in the show would be more comfortable with physical displays of affection from their friends than we normally are in the modern West because this has been shown to be true in canon. But I think you'd have to be the Pony's friend, at least.
2446422
Oh, in canon they've been shown touching each other affectionately. Half the slashfic pairings are based on misinterpretations of this behavior. Pinkie, Applejack and Fluttershy (but only if she really trusts you) are particularly likely to engage in this sort of behavior. Even Twilight, Rarity and Rainbow Dash do this occasionally, especially with their most special friends (Twilight with Applejack, Rarity with Spike -- even before she was plausibly returning his romantic sentiments -- and Rainbow Dash with Fluttershy).
But this is the body language of another species and culture, and should logically be approached with care. There are places which might not be immediately apparent that they probably consider secondary erogenous zones, and which they would not want to be touched save by lovers. They're people, not plush-toys.
2446637 Sure, sexual connotations from strangers would be creepy, but petting manes might just be weird. Like in the story I was talking about, the reaction was 'humans are weird'. And we have seen ponies petting each others' manes (well, Pinkie) and patting each other on the head and stuff, so it's probably not a sexual act.
The comic also has Applejack petting a goat at one point. The goat looks unamused.
Also 'like plush toys' is overstating the case (who pets plush toys?). It's 'like pets'.
2446727
Yes, I don't think petting a Pony's mane would by itself be seen as sexual. On the other hand, certain points along the back, especially above the shoulders, along the spine and right above the rump, would almost certainly be seen as sexual, especially to a mare. Remember, their default mating posture is male-to-female ventral-to-dorsal.
More generally, they're probably not all that happy with being touched by strangers without their permission. I wrote a scene in All the Way Back in which a Fluffy Pony acts strangely affectionate toward Luna, and Luna would normally be bothered by this, except that the Fluffy Pony is acting so childlike in other ways that Luna perceives her behavior as purely and innocently affectionate rather than disrespectful. (It's actually more significant than that, but Luna doesn't know why yet).
I don't think that the Ponies would like being treated as pets. Though they might put up with it better than would humans, because they're a very nice species in general.
You forgot the one where the self insert is explicitly given the moral high ground, and is a mouth piece for the author, and even if there are moments where they lose it (graciously of their own admittance of course), their actions STILL TURN OUT FOR THE BEST!
Now I want to write a story in which Discord breaks free of his prison prematurely, confronts the human Gary Stu, and is terrified because he recognizes the signs of a meta-reality warper... so he has to figure out some way to break out of the mental script the meta-reality warper is running, because meta-reality warpers can actually kill him, by redefining the rules of reality. Discord can warp reality, but not meta-reality. (The script, by any other name, but it would be hopelessly precious and pretentious and fourth-wally if Discord actually thought of his life as falling into a narrative structure. So he has to redesign his own role in a way the meta-reality warper will accept, lull him into submission, and then take him out in a way the meta-reality warper can't counter (probably by locking him into a dreamworld where his meta-reality powers will operate on figments of his imagination and none of the real ponies will be affected.)
He can't kill the guy, because any attempt to will immediately redefine Discord as "evil completely villainous Discord" and destroy what little conscience Discord has, and in the long run this will almost certainly result in Discord dying or being trapped forever. Plus in the short run Discord doesn't *want* to be totally evil. He can't appeal to any of the Mane 6 or the princesses, because this is pre-reform so they have no reason to trust him, and because the meta-reality warper has made all of the ponies love and adore him. If he fights the guy, he'll lose. But if he tries to claim that he wants to reform, the meta-reality warper won't believe him; this guy let him out of his prison to be a villain to defeat, so Discord would have to present him with an even more compelling narrative in order to break out of the trap of being the designated villain to a creature who cannot be defeated and who alters fate, probability and the emotions of everyone around him to make things go the way he expects them to. All the while desperately avoiding the effects of the guy's powers on his *own* mind and emotional state.
2453015
Often by just beating him with their manly fists. And for no good reason either, other than "Discord's a bad guy."
And these Gary Stus often want to be far, far worse tyrants than was Discord, forcing the minds and hearts of everypony to worship them forever.
2450162
"But wait," thought Mr. Selfie. "Perhaps by failing to grant Scootaloo the ability to fly with one of my bazillions of special powers, I have failed of my normal perfect perfection. Woe, woe, a thousand times woe is me! I shall console myself with my thousand-mare harem ..."
(*does so*)
2453037
Yeah. If you're capable of seeing that coming, you'd be terrified of it.
I think the only characters who could realistically see the Stu for what he is are Discord and Pinkamena. Pinkie could not; she has the power to, but her natural desire to be friends with everyone, give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and present a cheerful, welcoming affect to strangers, would keep her from seeing the danger until she was under the influence. Pinkamena (who I don't believe is an ax murderer or even particularly good at or desirous of killing anything; she's Pinkie when Pinkie is too sad to keep the cheerful facade up) might see it because Pinkamena is much less optimistic and friendly than Pinkie; but Pinkamena doesn;t want to be Pinkamena, she wants to be Pinkie, so odds are she'd get no chance to do anything about it before the meta-reality warper's will fell on her to transform her into Pinkie, and she wouldn't be able to resist that because she wants to be Pinkie. Very, very few people suffering from depression would be able to resist mind control trying to turn them into their happier selves. I know I couldn't.
But Discord's one of the few who could, because Discord can be happy in the middle of a conflict. Discord may be lonely, but he's not depressed, and most of these Stus are not interested in offering Discord friendship. So Discord can see the Stu for what he is because the Stu isn't trying to mind control him into anything but being an antagonist to the Stu, and since Discord would be both infuriated by and scared shitless of the Stu's power, there's no conflict between him perceiving the Stu and him fulfilling his designated role. The only thing Discord has to worry about is that his designated role is designated to lose; figuring how to win against someone who is warping meta-reality so that they will win would be really challenging.
2453043
Was thinking more of a certain fan comic whose name I shall not say least I spent the rest of the day broiling over it.
2453108
If it's the one with the alien whatever-she-was and the criminal from her other universe where both of them were absurdly overpowered for Equestria, and it turned out their geocentric solar system was the last life in Equestria's Universe -- I see your point.
I like this journal entry, I really do. Not least because I want to someday write stories about the ponies visiting Earth and vice-versa that would hail back somewhat to the Krishna stories with the tourists wandering another world and at times discovering cultural differences the hard way. And entries like this are very helpful even if just in reminding one of some of the basics.
That and for some reason I just want to see 'Ponies visiting rural Pennsylvania'. Don't ask me why, I just do -- and Heaven help the Mane Six when they try to drag Pinkie Pie away from the factory tour at Hershey!
I could see them reacting differently to young children, even if a bit stiffly at times. A friend of mine has an idea of the ponies on Earth (where this isn't uncommon) and meeting some kids who like the show, and enduring some petting as they talk about their lives.
And I'm flattered to see you mention this!
Yeah, I wanted to make it obvious that ponies would be startled if someone touched them unexpectedly, the same way humans would. And if it isn't a pony? Pity the fool who tried petting Gilda Griffon!
And mentioning My Little Balladeer, part of the reason why I had Dash react badly to John was because I wanted to avoid the whole 'all the ponies love him' idea. Under those circumstances Dash was very hostile, but with good reason after seeing what Thorne had done. And even Twilight was a little jumpy.
Yeah, no touchy. I recoil if a family member so much as pats me on the back unexpectedly. I would not expect ponies to be more tolerant of that.
3455012
Well, I expect it would vary based on the individual Ponies, and I actually model the Equestrians as more physically-affectionate than the norm for our culture. But that's not the same thing as considering themselves to be living plushie toys, and they would get very uncomfortable very fast if some random stranger started feeling them up.
3456082 Could the opposite occur? Say, if a Pony ended up on Human Earth, and, unfamiliar with Human customs, acted discomfortingly touchy-feely?