• Member Since 11th Mar, 2012
  • offline last seen March 13th

M1Garand8


A talking rifle. Gameplay programmer and aspiring writer. Writes stories with whimsical humor, stories with looming conspiracies and HiE that pokes fun at his choice of school/study.

More Blog Posts100

  • 340 weeks
    MLP: The Movie, One Week Later

    Long time no blog! :twilightoops:

    So, I have been reserving my 100th blog post for something special. However, with my latest two Thoughts blog posts stalled for the past two years, I’m posting something else. So, time for some thoughts on My Little Pony: The Movie!

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    3 comments · 568 views
  • 473 weeks
    Thoughts: On Names: Design

    Whew! It has been quite a while since the last Thoughts blog. The Ponies on Earth blog is currently going nowhere because I am blocked on the topic and I am still reorganizing my thoughts… for the past one and a half years. Plus, I have all these story ideas swarming my head, snarling all my writings to a crawl. Not to mention my day job robbing most of my free time but I am doing my best

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    27 comments · 1,222 views
  • 479 weeks
    Update: Interview with an Alicorn

    The nice and awesome PresentPerfect has finally released the first part of his reviews for The More Most Dangerous Game contest entries, go read up on it if you haven't! :3

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    1 comments · 532 views
  • 486 weeks
    Post: MMDG contest entry up

    News
    The More Most Dangerous Game contest deadline ended over a couple of hours ago and I barely submitted the thing in time. Final rush of 18 hours of almost non-stop writing and I managed almost 2.5k words (17 words below the minimum word limit, I hope EqD doesn't disqualify my entry =s).

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    0 comments · 615 views
  • 489 weeks
    The More Most Dangerous Game contest

    So recently our Great Beardlord Obselescence started a new The Most Dangerous Game™ contest. Now with more Equestria Daily! Of course, I'm going to enter once again this time. The writing rules are the same as last time (mostly):

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    0 comments · 407 views
Sep
18th
2013

Thoughts: On Characters: Self-Insert & Author Avatars · 6:22pm Sep 18th, 2013

Check out my other blog on my thoughts of Self-Inserts as a concept!

Opening words
Ah Self-Inserts, it is what I consider the ultimate fan fiction. Nothing shouts “fan fiction” more than putting the “fan” in the actual “fiction” itself. Self-Inserts have garnered a really bad reputation in many (if not every) fandom. It is not without good reasons why they have been universally hated: Wish Fulfillment, self-indulgence and “bad character design” (I will explain that in a while) has been the bane of this particular “genre”.

On the smaller and more obscure end is the Author Avatar (at least in fan fiction). While technically a Self-Insert, Author Avatar serves a different function, which I will also explain later.

Self-Insert: Concept
The concept of a Self-Insert is very simple: the author is the main character in the story, be it an already established universe or original fiction. Either that or the author still plays a very important role and actively impacts on the plot itself.

Sporkers/Riffers tend to take a grim view of Self-Inserts in original fiction, since they see them as the original fiction equivalent of OCs in fanfics, which tends to lead to Mary Sues as well. Case in point would be Eragon from The Inheritance Cycle (the author, Christopher Paolini, claimed that Eragon was initially himself and eventually moved away from that in the later books. The verdict from the sporking community is still hung on that).

Self-Insert: Reasons
There are a few reasons for wanting to do a Self-Insert:

1. Wish Fulfillment
2. Realistic interaction with canon cast and universe
3. Exploration of consequences of being stuck in another universe, away from everything you know

Mainly in the (1) category but I have seen good ones that mesh (2) and (3) together.

Self-Insert: Problems
As I have mentioned above, Self-Inserts do not have a good reputation. Most of them suffered from many problems that also plague other types of fanfiction. Not to mention having a few serious problems of their own. Personally, I think many Self-Inserts have been inadequately explored or at least shallowly explored.

1. Wish Fulfillment
This problem is inescapable. Even when aiming for categories (2) and (3), it is still a Wish Fulfillment down in its heart, as being in the universe itself is a wish. However, that in itself is not the real problem. The real problem is the attitude while fulfilling the wish. If you have been keeping track of my Thoughts posts, you might have noticed something: I keep harping about the attitude while working with Wish Fulfillment and Rule of Cool.

Like TVTropes like to point out, Tropes Are Not Bad and Tropes Are Tools. However, the attitude of wanting the best for your characters (OCs, SI or even canon characters) just because or you cannot stand them being “abused” is well, bad. This is especially so when the notion supersedes the rules of the universe (or being more important than everything in the universe).

I am not saying that we cannot have happy endings or characters must be put through the wringer just because. If you want good things for your characters, you let the characters work for it, not give it to them on a silver platter. The universe may be a cold and uncaring bitch but it is ultimately neutral. It does not owe your characters anything nor are your characters its personal punching bag. Not to mention having everything drop on your lap in the right moments simply kills tension and make a boring plot.

This is compounded by a sprinkling of Rule of Cool. … Maybe more than a little sprinkling. Rule of Cool, in my opinion is notoriously hard to pull off. Most of the time, it simply pulls the tone of the universe way off. Not to mention likely turning yourself into a Mary Sue.

To give an example, I came across a SI fic early last year about a genetically modified super soldier wielding a katana (yay) who is, of course, a brony sent to scout Equestria. It quickly devolved into an unexplained appearance of Discord and Twilight suddenly knowing how to fight like an anime character. Of course, the hero eventually saves the day by wrecking half of Ponyville in an anime fight sequence and beating the snot out of Discord (yay…). Well, sure it was cool but the story rapidly went downhill. I did not even get past chapter 2 of the story (or it stopped at chapter 2 and I did not stay to find out if it updated).

A counter-example for this would be: after following through the events of say Mass Effect 3 and you are on a shuttle supporting Commander Shepard on a mission and in the heavy fighting, the shuttle was heavily damaged by a Reaper and you decide to crash the shuttle on it and bail out at the last minute. Okay, this is not the best example but when you put in the appropriate tone of the situation and with good justification, it could turn into a moment of awesome or heroism. This is all down to the execution.

2. Bad Character design
Bad character design? How could there be bad character design when the character is you yourself? Well, let’s face it: even if we try to write ourselves as truthfully as possible, there is still a small bit of idealism in the image you portray. There is a divorce between how we think we are and how we actually act.

So how do I know? It is very simple; I noted how I interacted with my characters in my stories and compared it to how I acted in public and towards my friends. There I noticed discrepancies: I tend to be more cynical and a know-it-all in my interactions with my characters than I am in real life. Mainly, this is due to my introversion as I am way more vocal when I talk to myself (and thus my characters). Also, I spoke better English internally than externally. :trollestia:

This is also inescapable. As much as we try push down the idealized version of ourselves, a small part will inevitably slip through. The best solution I can think of is to ask yourself: “if this is real life, what would you do?” when faced with a problem. Grasp the situation clearly and think hard. Think hard and make use of the available resources at hand and base your decision on your own knowledge and your true abilities (and not some super power you shoehorned in).

3. Bad plot
Well, less bad plot than cookie cutter plot. Sometimes, it can be both (like the super soldier example above). Most of the time, the SI simply plop into the place of the original main character and goes through the same motions, which makes a very boring story and the readers would rather watch the original episode or play the game. Either that or we have something like the super soldier example I gave above, which the plot went to some ridiculous direction.

This problem is easier to avoid than the other two. You must always be aware that your character is not more important than the universe, even if you might be insanely powerful. But care should be taken about higher power levels, since power corrupts. Your appearing in the universe may be a game changer (it depends on whether the characters take notice and exploit your appearance and whether your appearance actually has importance) or it may just be an insignificant event and both events must be handled carefully.

But my personal preference is a mix of the two: your appearance is insignificant but the powers at large are manipulating you towards some end (at least in the context of FiM). Well, I like looming conspiracies. For universes like Mass Effect or Dead Space, it would be more interesting to go with insignificant appearance and explore the wider world other than canon. Although it requires some world-building, it can be more interesting than the countless other “I meet Shepard/Isaac Clarke and have adventures!” Sure, it takes more skill and time to pull off but the payoff, in my opinion, is worth it.

4. Lack of realistic interaction
Well, I am sure most of you are very aware of this problem. It is so prevalent in the HiE fics. The one where the SI meets Twilight Sparkle, falls in love immediately and they soon bang. Switch out Twilight Sparkle for your waifus or even your harem… you get the idea.

I think there should be some form of self-discipline and respect when interacting. Sure, they may be your idols or waifus (or both). Ask yourself: “Do you want to act like a screaming, rabid fanboy/girl in front of your ‘celebrity’ or do you want to conduct yourself respectfully?” Whether they are real or not, that is still a person right there, give them some respect. This goes the same for the characters. They should treat you just like they treat anyone else: a person, adjusted to their personality.

Also, you are not the best thing next to sliced bread. In the grand scheme of the universe, you are just another character. You are not the most important person in the universe.

5. Detractors
Well, this is the same in the case of OCs. When readers already do not want to read about OCs, chances that they do not want to read about an OC that is basically, you. There is nothing much you can do about it, since this is a personal preference for them.

The only thing you can do is the usual for any stories: a good hook, a good plot, a well-realized and realistic interaction with the canon characters, good conflicts and tension. That means no instantly falling in love with Twilight Sparkle and banging her after meeting her for a day (or the rest of the main six, or the princesses or the background characters or Discord or… you get the idea). Maybe a few of them might actually find it interesting and actually read your story! But until then, try not to hold your breath too much.

Self-Insert: Personal Thoughts
I like Self-Inserts. To me, it is not just a vehicle for Wish Fulfillment. It is more than that. It is something for me to explore being out of my comfort zone, to be put in a situation out of my control, to get to interact with the characters of the universe, to see their reactions to my interaction and for me to do my best to salvage the situation, deal with my internal issues and eventually get home.

Sure, it is still Wish Fulfillment for me (which in this case is the exploration of interaction with other characters and the universe) but I want to do so as a responsible fan and not a rabid fanboy. It is an interesting notion for me to hold discussion with the characters, not just in the context of the stories but also just internally as a face-to-face discussion on various topics and see their reactions. I find it rewarding and help builds my characterization skills.

Author Avatar: Concept
An Author Avatar is a more obscure concept, at least in the fanfic community. Author Avatars are Self-Inserts as characters that are minor to the plot or used as a Self-Deprecation or even as a Macguffin. Sometimes, it is used as the mouthpiece of the author. In most cases, Author Avatars do little to impact on the plot and are in fact usually affected greatly by the plot instead. That is, the plot affects the Avatar Author more than vice versa.

Author Avatars are more prevalent in original fiction while the inverse is true for fan fictions (at least I see more examples in the respective mediums for each trope).

Author Avatar vs. Self-Insert: Difference
The main differences between Author Avatars and Self-Inserts are the level of importance and the way both tropes is handled. Author Avatars are usually minor characters and under the effects of the plot while Self-Inserts are the main characters and usually have more impact on the plot. Author Avatars are sometimes a mouthpiece of the author, sometimes a plot enabler, sometimes a macguffin giver and sometimes a joke on the author himself/herself. A Self-Insert is the main star of the show and holds the decisions that may or may not influence the plot.

Conclusion
This concludes my analysis on Self-Inserts and a comparison with Author Avatars. Here are some examples that I think are decent Self-Insert stories (unfortunately from ff.net):

- Mass Vexations Series (Mass Vexations 1 linked. Note: Turns into AU in Mass Vexations 3 due to ME3 speculation and snowball effect from slight disruption of the SI, for better or worse)
- Masses to Masses Series (Masses to Masses 1 linked)

Feel free to put in any points that I may have missed or if you think I may be wrong about certain points. :twilightsmile:

Report M1Garand8 · 541 views ·
Comments ( 5 )

responsible fan

This made me chuckle. :twilightsheepish:

An interesting analysis. I myself have turned away from self insert fanfiction because slogging through the bad ones to find the good ones is just too time consuming.

1358036
I believe we all have the capacity to be so but I'm being idealistic. There's nothing wrong with being idealistic, right? :twilightblush:

1359163

No there is not.

Under the heading of "lack of realistic interaction," the most common sins I see are either:

(1) Everypony loves the Self-Insert for no reason

This is almost par for the course in SI love stories or harem fics. The love object (s) lose their canon personalities, ranging from displayed areas of interests to fundamental moralities, the better to fit in to the scenario in which they love the SI character. This is both degrading to the love object characters, and self-defeating from a story POV since if one wants to write a story about someone falling in love with (say) Twilight Sparkle, the story doesn't work if the character of Twilight Sparkle is changed to the point where she's basically somepony completely different from her canon self that just looks like Twilight Sparkle or has her skills and powers.

Remember, the Mane Six are beautiful young mares of relatively high social status. They are celebrities, heroines, ponies of importance. If they're single it's because they have high morals and high standards, not because they can't find a date for the prom, boo-hoo. The canon explicitly supports this in at least one case ("Simple Ways") and implicitly supports it in many scenes.

(2) Everypony hates the Self-Insert for no reason

This is the "Poor Widdle Me" scenario. Nopony understands me, nopony gives me a chance, I try to be nice and good to everypony but they just abuse me and keep on abusing me until I just want to die (*sniff*) :fluttercry::fluttercry::fluttercry:

Among the problems with this is that it's just an inversion of inflated importance. Why the heck are these characters, who have their own lives and concerns (including defending an industrial nation with tens of millions of inhabitants from various supernatural menaces) so focused on Mr. Selfie? If they don't like Selfie, why does he keep pestering them? Why doesn't he instead look for ponies who do like him? There is, after all, a nation of tens of millions of them out there.

Another problem is that it doesn't fit the canon characters. The Mane Six, and most of those with whom they associate, are rather nice Ponies. In the show, they are kind, helpful and polite to those they encounter. Why would they decide to persecute Mr. Selfie, when they don't persecute anypony else?

Which leads directly to the third option:

(3) Everypony Hates the Self-Insert for VERY GOOD REASONS

This is what usually happens when an immature author tries to portray situation 1, situation 2 or sometimes a combination of situations 1 and 2. Mr. Selfie is revealed by his actions to be an annoying, obnoxious bastard who nopony in his right mind would like or trust, no matter how many complimentary or self-depreciatingly-complimentary adjectives or descriptions the writer slathers over his foul form.

A good example of this is all the Humans In Equestria who are pointlessly obnoxious to Celestia or the other Princesses. Guys, Celestia is an autocrat, but she is a beloved and revered autocrat. For good reason -- she is in fact kind, loving and wise. She's the sort of pony who anypony in their right mind would respect, even without traditions telling him to respect her. Heck, most Equestrians love her.

Why exactly would the Ponies of Equestria be expected to react with anything but outrage, revulsion and scorn toward anyone who treated Celestia with public disrespect? After all, as the acknowledged and widely-supported leader of their nation, she's their REPRESENTATIVE. He who pointlessly offends Celestia is pointlessly offending Equestria.

Likewise, persons who think that it's okay to just reach out and randomly touch Ponies. These are sapient beings, not brushable toys. They have a sense of their own dignity and personal space, just as do Humans. Yes, they are a physically-affectionate culture and as such accept degrees of physical intimacy from their FRIENDS that is uncommon in the modern West. Is Mr. Selfie their friend?

Probably not, if he just blew into town. Even Pinkie Pie, who is exceedingly friendly, would almost surely be creeped out if someone she just met was trying to climb all over her. (This actually figures in something I'm going to write as part of Pinkie Sense and Sensibility).

If Mr. Selfie treats other Ponies with disrespect, why should he be surprised when they don't become his pals? Let alone lovers?

When I read some of these stories I really wonder sometimes how their authors function in real life -- do they walk up to strangers, insult them and then try to caress them? How do they go through their day without being punched in the face, or arrested?

So that's my short take on the issue.

2446186
Ah, the Mary Sue, Anti-Sue (kind of) and shallow writing + OOCness. These are all symptoms, in my opinion, of the author's fantasy overpowering the story and the characters. Symptoms of a broken thinking in the fundamentals of the writing. The authors do not or are not willing to look at the characters as individuals but as enablers of fantasy in the case of 1), manifestation of a persecution complex (okay, this is actually highly speculative on my part) in the case of 2) and simply as "not people" in the case of 3).

But to note is that many of the case of 2) is simply authors trying to avoid the SI being Mary Sue but going so far that it's not really Anti-Sue anymore. At least Anti-Sue is still "worshipped" and the plot bends over for the Sue though one can still argue that the plot bends over to give the protagonist a never ending hard time.

And 3) really reflects that sort of broken thinking, the SI treats everyone like something out of a dream, with zero concept of personal space, respect of boundary and many things that govern our daily interactions with other humans. They don't see them as people and everything they do in the story was "I want to do X" instead of "Is this appropriate if I do X?" That sort of thinking has to go before a person wants to sit down and write a Self-Insert fic. They also have to recognize the neutrality of the world they're writing (which I talked about in my second blog on Self-Inserts).

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