Discord Is Not an Exemplar of Morality · 5:28am Aug 6th, 2014
Introduction
I was rather astonished, on the comment thread for one of my stories, to hear the argument advanced that Discord could not possibly have been in love with Celestia because there is ample evidence that he is now (at least 1000 years later, in my chronology over 2500 years later) attracted to Fluttershy. Furthermore, he couldn't have even been friends with Celestia or Luna, because he told Fluttershy that she was his first friend ever, and thus he would have had to have been lying to her with that statement.
I solve problems like this by remembering a subtle fact about Discord which may have escaped some fans' attention, namely:
Discord is not an exemplar of morality.
Some stained-glass window designer (possibly Celestia herself) may have been trying to make the same point when he depicted Discord as the laughing puppetmaster dancing all three Kinds into a fiery pit. Now, Equestrian religion may not be precisely Judeo-Christian, but somehow I suspect that this iconography isn't much more flattering in the Equestrian artistic and theological tradition than it would be in our own. Demons laughing while they toss you into a lake of fire are probably not your friends, even if you are a sapient technicolor horse.
The point is sort of repeated in every episode Discord is in. In his first appearance, he causes (even in canon) fear and suffering everywhere his influence touches, drives all the Mane Six at least temporarily insane, and threatens to impose this upon the world forever. Which is what he did back when he ruled the world before the Sisters defeated him. In his second appearance, he would have broken loose again if he hadn't fallen for Fluttershy. In his third appearance he plays nice (by his previous standards) but the main threat comes from something he did over a thousand years ago. We then see him messing with Cadance and the Mane Six just because he feels like it, and finally betraying all Equestria before his final Heel-Face turn when he realizes he cares more for Fluttershy than he does for power (though note that he only realizes this after he's lost his power.
I repeat: Discord is not an exemplar of morality.
Monogamy
This is perhaps ironic because my own Fluttershy is polyamorous (though honest enough about it, when she is able to grasp that it might be a problem), but it has occurred to me that Discord may not be particularly monogamous. Certainly not so monogamous that his having been in love with Celestia over 2500 years ago (and rejected by her, though admittedly for very good reasons) would prevent him from being in love with Fluttershy now.
Gentle Reader, are you that monogamous? Seriously, even if you were immortal, would you necessarily be so in love with someone else that even if rejected by them you could never recover from the pain of losing them that you could not love anyone ever again in over a thousand years? I seriously disagree with this theory. I don't personally think that even Celestia is that monogamous, and I suspect she has better morals than Discord.
There's also the Chaos God thing. It's not very "chaotic" to be rigidly loyal to a lost love for over a thousand years. (It's extremely romantic, but that's hardly the same thing). Discord would probably find it boring. (Note: I'm not saying that Discord wouldn't yearn for his lost love, but that and being faithful to her memory are not the same thing).
And the Mad Tyrant thing. Even were Discord not demonstrably someone who might destroy your whole town at a fancied slight, or play some insane game which would leave your town wishing it had been destroyed, plenty of mares (and some stallions) would fling themselves into the bed of anyone that powerful. Now, given that he is -- you don't think there'd be plenty of Ponies willing to do just about anything to appease him?
Veracity
Okay, but that's mean nasty old Discord. This is kind nice new Discord, with extra FlutterReform (tm) goodness! Surely nice new Discord wouldn't lie to his beloved Fluttershy, now would he?
Well, mean nasty old Discord often used lying as a preferred tactic. Did you notice how when he Discorded Ponies he would often make them lie or make them see lies? So Discord is pretty comfortable with lying.
And exactly what lie is he telling here? Is he telling Fluttershy a black lie such as "I love you" when the truth is "I don't love you?
Nope. The lie would be "You were my first real friend." Which would (1) make Fluttershy feel better about herself and (2) feel better about Discord, with the result that (3) he'd be more likely to win Fluttershy's love. (Or, for the crass among you, score). Heck -- Discord may even believe this -- he may believe that Celestia was never really his friend (if she had been, she woulda stuck by her stallion when he decided to make himself the Mad Tyrant of the World!
So, basically, he'd be telling a minor lie to a girl he really likes to get into her -- well, these are Ponies, so they don't wear any. I could say "under her tail," which I bet is as crude a line for Ponies as "into her pants" is for us.
Hmm, do you think that any Human males -- perhaps ones who would not be morally comfortable with making themselves Mad Tyrants of the World -- would be willing to lie to a girl they liked to get into her pants? Have any of you, male or female, ever known any who would?
Now, do I think it's immoral to lie to a girl you like to get into her pants? Oh hell, yes. I've generally avoided the practice, too -- but then when I like a girl the truth about her as I see it at the time tends to be fairly flattering. (Consider the motivation and the reason should be obvious -- why do I like this girl so much if I don't have a flattering opinion of her?)
But a heck of a lot of Human males would disagree with me. And, I suspect, a fair number of Pony stallions.
And why do I think that Discord might disagree with me on this? Because he's not an exemplar of morality, and he's desperate.
For sex? No, with his powers and personality, he can get that fairly easily. With his ability to make solid holograms or whatever the heck it is that he conjures, he doesn't even need another sapient being -- he can masturbate like he's in Odo's holosuite on Deep Space Nine, no machinery needed.
For love. "Of c...c...course you can have me, great Discord, just spare my village!" does not have the same charm as being invited to tea by Fluttershy.
Discord's not stupid. He knows that when Ponies scream and flee they are not his fans, and if they submit to him sexually in the hopes that he won't do something horrible to them, this is not a warm fuzzy moment of sharing.
A kind word or a gentle touch from somepony who really loves him probably means more to him than an orgy with a heap of Ponies who either don't care about him or are actually afraid of him. This doesn't mean that he's good -- it just means that he's not absolutely and sadistically evil.
Which he isn't. But not being pure evil doesn't make him pure good either.
Conclusion
Discord is not an exemplar of morality, and any argument which assumes that he must behave with perfect morality is therefore fatally flawed at its base.
You sure think a lot.
Also one thing to consider as being an immortal entity of chaos the way he thinks is not neccessarillly the same as the rest of us.
For instance if he says that Flutershy is his first love that may not be a lie even if the Celestia thing is true. The reason being to him he may not think of his relationship with Celestia as "love" even if that is how we interpret it. His point of view is so different that this must be considered when he says something. one would need to Discord to elaborate directly about what he thinks his relationship with Celestia is/was and he may not be willing to do that.
It is similar to asking a genie for a wish in that what you mean and what he gets from it can be very different (and just like a nasty genie Discord probably likes tricking others with his obtuse thinking).
I always figured that Discord is Chaotic Neutral. His chaotic neutral randomness can be very destructive. If a lawful good Pony ¡Cough! FlutterShy ¡/Cough! befriends him, he can be a force of good. If an X Evil Centaur ¡Cough¡ Tirek ¡/Cough! pretends to be his friend, he can be lead into extremely destructive behavior, even if he refuses to kill and prevents the Centaur from murder.
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For what it's worth, I think his intentions toward Fluttershy are benign, certainly by the end of Season Four. He doesn't want to hurt her, and he is willing to accommodate her to a large degree to keep her affection.
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(*nods*) Plus, Discord's not all that emotionally-mature; he's very susceptible to the influence of others whose opinions he values.
Another interpretation of the "first friend" comment is that it was a statement calculated to enhance the believability of Discord's willingness to return everything to normal. The rest of the Mane Six would probably be less likely to see his actions as a ruse if they think this is the first time friendship touched his cold heart(s). At least, that may have been his thought at the time.
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Yes. It's almost explicitly stated in "Keep Calm and Flutter On" that Discord's friendship with Fluttershy was at first mostly a ruse, but that on knowing her long enough, it became real. And that friendship may not have been all that strong in his mind by the end of the episode -- just stronger than his desire to play destructive games at the moment.
I don't think that Discord's true Love Epiphany came until after he had betrayed her and in turn been betrayed by Tirek, at the end of Season Four. Yeah, he's all jealous and stuff in Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason, but that's more possessiveness than real love at this point.
He basically took Fluttershy for granted because she is -- by his standards -- rather innocent, so he didn't expect her to find a stallion. He also assumed that she was monogamous (to be fair, she is monogamous compared to him). One of the points of Divine Jealousy and the Voice of Reason is "don't take your Love Interest for granted."
I've usually characterized Discord as that guy who doesn't have any friends explicitly because he's such a dick. Maybe not necessarily insane at the beginning, just kind of ignorant to social norms, if you know what I mean? But then he loses it because he realizes he's not making anything resembling a friend and decides to put all his effort into his "pranks," by which I mean his world bending insanity.
Basically I've always imagined his backstory as that plot most every show has where they dig up some caveman and try to reintegrate it; It goes mad due to the stimulus overload the present presents, and has to be stopped.
2347643 And if we're lucky he'll never stop.
Its hard to see Discord as a great tyrant and immoral polyamoruos sex beast with pictures like this
derpicdn.net/img/2014/8/6/692738/full.jpeg
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I don't see Discord as a great tyrant -- a major league asshole, though, and with way too much power, that's pretty much canon.
You gotta keep in mind, Chaos is unpredictable. Just like fans perceive the possibility of Pinkie turning into something really really creepy just because she is so random and silly, Discord is capable of shifting rapidly between being genuinely adorable and darkly malicious. There's even a scene that suggests this in the comic book where he's helping the CMC. He gets angry that they've challenged his imaginative prowess, rolls up his imaginary sleeve, and declares, with a dark expression on his face, that he'll show these ungrateful fillies the true power of Discord... and he's genuinely scary in that moment. And then Sweetie Belle comes up to him to thank him for helping out, and he turns within seconds into a mushball who actually tears up when they hug him.
As for Discord being polyamorous... polyamory isn't evil. Discord being willing to have sex with pretty much anypony who makes a sincere offer isn't an expression of decadence, really -- he's not exactly some hedonistic sybarite who spends all his time thinking about sex. It's really more sad than anything else. Nopony loves Discord, nopony's his friend, nopony ever wants to have anything to do with him, nopony enjoys anything he does... except during sex. If a pony offers herself to him, with some degree of sincerity (I don't actually think he accepts "Please, lord Discord, do what you want with me, just spare my village" as an offer... he wants them to at least make a convincing pretense that they want him), then in that moment, he's desirable. In that encounter, he can do things to a pony that they want him to do, and enjoy having him do. (He's selfish, but he's also very adept at manipulation, and making his partner experience genuine pleasure is a huge ego boost.)
It doesn't last, in part because he's too dangerous and chaotic for the majority of ponies to genuinely want him for more than a wild sexual fantasy, in part because he won't let it -- he's aware he can be manipulated this way, and before spending a millennium in stone, he considered his freedom more important than avoiding loneliness, because he could distract himself with constant entertaining chaos. The impact of the loneliness affected him badly enough while he was in stone that it is the only negative aspect of it he's actually admitted to in canon. ("It's very lonely being in stone, but you wouldn't know that because I don't turn ponies to stone") That's why Fluttershy's tactic worked; it wouldn't have, in the past. There were probably quite a few mares who thought to themselves "He's hurting inside, but I can change him", and discovered the hard way that no, they couldn't.
I think that having Fluttershy as a friend has actually solved a lot of the need that drove Discord to have a lot of meaningless sexual encounters. Fluttershy wants him for his whole self, not just a sexual fantasy. She doesn't want a night of meaningless pleasure, she wants his friendship. That fulfills him in a way that a thousand pointless encounters with ponies he barely knows could never do. So yeah, Discord is hardly a polyamorous sex beast now; it was never the sex that was important to him, given, as Jordan pointed out, that his own powers allow him to stage orgies with realistic full-tactile illusions of every pony he's ever had a passing interest in, every night. He doesn't need real ponies for pleasure, he needs them for emotional validation, and what he gets from Fluttershy is so much more powerful than what he got from casual sex, he doesn't even need to have sex with her (though he'd probably very much like to... but he won't be the one to ask. He needs to know he's wanted more than he needs sex itself, and he'd rather be a cuddle friend than make things awkward by being a rejected suitor.)
Have you ever read "It's a Good Life"? It's a science fiction short story that got made into a Twilight Zone episode, about an adorable three year old boy with godlike powers who has made life for the people of his town a living hell. Anthony is sweet and cute when he's trying to be nice, but given that he's only three even his niceness creates problems... and when he's upset he is a terrifying horror. Discord is slightly more mature than Anthony, but you need to remember, just because he is capable of being adorable or funny with the ponies he likes, doesn't make him any less dangerous to the ponies he couldn't care less about.
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Yes. I had this in Negotiating Terms:
I think it was partly sincere, partly a ruse. Also, I think Discord says things that feel true to him at the moment, regardless of whether they are actually true or not, regardless of whether he normally considers them true or not.
As much as I like your version of past!Discolunestia, I think he was telling the truth about Flutters being his first true friend. He's a hedonistic son-of-a-snake with alien morals and ethics, but that moment for him was the picosecond that he started his "I'm going to turn a new leaf" mode.
He at that point was mocking her, when he claimed she was the first friend he ever had. At the point that he says it, he's not trying to make her feel better about herself, he's trying to put her down further than ever. The moment after, he realizes what he's tossing away, and he is reformed.
Now then, that doesn't mean that he's right.
This isn't just Physical God Discord, but also Insane Discord who's been stuck as a boulder for 1000+ years. While he may be telling his version of the truth, yours might be true as well from Celestia and Luna's POV. His mind is a chaotic mess strewn with abandonment and imprisonment. He's Celestia with zero stabilizing factors(until Flutters) and an Unreliable Narrator for reasons other than his lying.
The thing is, he might not totally remember ever being friends with Tia and Luna. His demeanor with them suggests that he knows them quite well. Better, I say, than if he had just tormented and harassed them before his initial imprisonment. The little clues and tells between the two paint a broader canvas than what we've seen, but I think he's telling the truth from his point of view.
In a way this is a little more "Greek Tragedy" than the idea that he does remember. He can't think of Tia and Luna as childhood friends, and all they know is that he's a sociopath who betrayed them...
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That's a good point. Discord may sometimes not even remember the truth of his past.
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There is another way to interpret that, though.
If he was lying or exaggerating when he said he'd never really had a friend before, then his mockery here could be in part "And you believed me when I said you were my only friend ever?" The way de Lancie says "That I'll lose the only friend I ever had" sounds like he's making fun of the concept... which could be Discord making fun of the idea that he needs or wants friends, or it could be Discord making fun of the idea that Fluttershy really is his only friend ever.
And then it hits him that she really is the only friend he has now... regardless of whether or not he ever had friends before, he hasn't got any now. And that brings him up short, at which point he realizes Fluttershy has won their mental battle; that he wants a friend more than he wants to release random chaos everywhere, at which point he says "Well played."
Of course it's fairly obvious that the interpretation the writers intended was straight, that we were just supposed to take "never had a friend before" and "only friend I ever had" at face value... but JdL is particularly good at infusing his lines with enough complexity of intonation that you could interpret what the character means in multiple ways. And for me personally... I actually can't imagine an entity who's literally never had a friend in thousands of years having an interest in having one based on a single day of being shown kindness. That's the kind of oversimplification that comes from it being a kids' show. To me there's more psychological realism if Discord knows what it feels like to have a friend and has missed it, deep down, than if this is an entirely new concept for him.
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I think you're reading too much into what you want it to be rather than what there is actually evidence for.
Sure, there could be higher levels of doublethink going on, but as Jordan points out over and over, Discord is, more than anything, lazy. His entire game up to this point has been to push the temporary truce as far as he thinks it will go, and stop there. I imagine if Fluttershy had picked up the Element of Kindness at that point, he would have snapped everything back. But, like a petulant child, he would keep going that far and keep turning back at the edge.
But no, his entire reaction is because he finally found somepony who will put up with his shit, and he realizes that he's losing the chance at having a real companion. His subsequent behavior in "Three's a Crowd" shows that his idea of a friend is just that: someone who will willingly accompany him during a bout of Chaos. Now, he's pranking the two princesses, but this is bonding time for him. He doesn't know how to be a friend, he has never(in his memory) had a friend in his life.
And as convincing as i find it that he has never had a friend, I find it equally dubious that he has had a friend. By that I mean that even if I'm wrong about the above, it's still unlikely that someone like Discord has ever had a friend because of what he is.
As said, Discord is lazy, but he is also capricious. He doesn't stick with one thing for long, and he won't fight very hard for anything without a darn good motive. During his reign before Tia and Luna took over, he did whatever he wanted and made ponies lives hell. During this time, nopony would have wanted to be his friend, and the closest he would have had would be creatures he created or put in a thrall to like being around him. Doing what? The same thing he always does: make more chaos. He couldn't have ever made a friend during his reign.
All of this never would have happened in the first place, though, if he believed that there was something worth saving about a non-Chaotic world. namely, a friend to bring him down to earth, like 'Shy. He doesn't show any signs of "raging against mortality" that would indicate he had a friend and lost them, so the only conclusion is that he either never had any friends ever, or doesn't remember them.
The most likely scenario is the first. He never had friends. As much as I like my Tragic scenario of amnesiac!Discord, there's nothing to actually support its existence, just as there's nothing to refute the idea.
I totally do not see Discord as the "I will mourn your loss for a thousand years" type. (I doubt anyone could do this anyway.)
I imagine being thousands of years old or more, Discord has had plenty of sexual experiences, probably with mare and stallion alike. What he wants from Fluttershy is different. She's not just a roll in the hay. He wouldn't say no to the idea of her wanting him romantically and/or sexually,but he'll quite happily be her friend because he genuinely enjoys her company.
I'd also imagine Discord feels horribly vulnerable when he has feelings for someone, so he'll keep his feelings for Fluttershy hidden as much as he can.
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Ironically, my Discord actually was in love with Celestia, and he is really sad she doesn't love him any more. And he's immature enough that he doesn't get that she actually does love him in some ways -- it's just that (1) she for very good reasons doesn't really trust him since he Awoke and turned on her and her sister and their whole steading and wrecked the world in the process, (2) really doesn't want to get badly emotionally hurt by him again, and (3) fell in love with others (and one particular other) in the intervening 2500 years. And Discord had lots and lots of sex with other beings during the first 1000 of those years. During the next 1500 years, he was being a statue.
Very much so, and you're exactly right. She's the first true friend he's had since he Awoke and became Discord. He loves her.
He does not fully grasp that Celestia is truly his friend, too. She turned him to stone because she couldn't see any other way of stopping him and thus ending the suffering of the world under his capricious tyranny. She had time to figure out how to truly kill him and expel his spirit from the Earth. She didn't want to do that, because she cares about him and hoped for his reform.
Luna's ... less optimistic about his potentially-sterling character. Though they used to be best friends. Him turning on her and Celestia hurt Luna a lot, and Luna's the less emotionally-stable of the Sisters.
Oh, yes.
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This is much the way I see it in my world too. Though Discord is less of a tyrant and more of an enormous man-child that doesn't understand that when he plays, he potentially ends up hurting others through his actions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2zBjq7MVzQ
I also think Discord, as well as being the bad boyfriend, has likely had lots of bad boyfriends himself in the past. Xolotl being one of them, though Xolotl is just downright abusive, whereas Discord is more than likely oblivious about how hurtful he can be. I think he's learning through Fluttershy though. When he saw how much he hurt her with the Tirek incident he realized he'd messed up something amazing. Now he just has to work out how to mend it.