Lose Your Soul · 5:09am Jul 11th, 2014
Hi guys. Couple notes before I get started tonight. First is that judging for The Most Dangerous Game Contest proceeds apace. It turns out we've got some real solid contenders. There are a fair few stories that didn't turn out quite as well as we all might've hoped, but I'm still immensely proud of y'all for turning out for the contest here. Rest assured that everything likely to move onto the audience participation stage will be totally worthy of your time.
Second is that I'm currently in the far-off land of Peru, building a water-purification plant for some fine folks down here. I, uh, may've forgotten to mention that at all before it happened. I've still got internet and stuff, so I'm not off the grid or nothing, but if I seem noticeably less active for the next week or so, that'd be why.
ANYWHO, time for rambles. Again, some of this is informed by the lateness of the hour, so peruse and consider any of the following content at your own peril.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
-Mark Zuckerberg 8:36
So, uh, I've heard tell of a certain practice being employed by certain folks on Fimfiction.net, to the tune of thus: upon publication, a given author will take their fic, and add it to literally every group that would possibly be willing to take it.
And don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying this about the people who'll try to find all the relevant groups for their fic and make sure their story goes in there. Full disclosure: Yes, I do it too. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with being sure that your comedy story about Celestia falling in love with a human ends up in the Comedy, Romance, Celestia x Human, and Princess Celestia groups. It's a relevant addition to all of them, and is more or less a large part of why groups like that are there.
What I'm talking about here is when that process reaches the extent of reasonable limits. When the author does not merely seek out groups relevant to their story (though god knows they may dig up dozens of those, potentially on increasingly tenuous connections), but literally every group that could possibly be willing to take the story.
There are actually a lot of groups out there that don't have any particular policy about what they'll accept or won't accept. American Bronies, off the top of my head, is one such group. Where the submission criteria is essentially "Be an American." Aaaand, that's about it. And there's nothing wrong with that, honestly. Hey, if you're in the group and it's a place where you hang or something, sure, go for it. America will probably understand.
But when the author seeks out and makes sure to add everything they write to, like, twenty-something groups like that? When they add it to every single one within minutes of posting? When the total count of groups their story is in--just minutes after posting--reaches anywhere from sixty to seventy?
That's starting to get a little silly.
I've heard the argument made that this is a process which is entirely reasonable. Or more than that even--the suggestion that it's an optimal strategy. After all, if the group's got no policy against it, why not add your story to as many groups as humanly possible? If a hundred groups would be willing to take it without complaint, add it to all one hundred of them. It maximizes your potential popularity, gets you better odds of landing the ever-elusive featured box, and well--why not? It's a victimless crime. Who's getting hurt by it?
Well, admittedly, nobody.
I don't really condemn anyone who'd employ this strategy. Not to the extent where I'd demand that they'd stop. I'm not of the opinion that it's breaking a rule or anything. At least, not a written rule. Maybe it breaks an unspoken rule here or there, though it's a lot harder to agree on what those are.
Do I frown upon it, though? I think I do. And it's mostly because of what it represents for you as a person. Maybe it's an optimal strategy--maybe everyone ought to be employing it, and the problem here is not that people can't, but that people are stupid and won't. Maybe. To my mind, though, it feels cheap. If it isn't technically against the rule of law, then it feels like it's against the spirit of whatever law governs this wasteland.
And I think that's where this begins to break down.
There's a description-of-phenomenon in fanfiction that people probably recognize, having either used it themselves or at least seen it applied to other people. It's called "whoring," and it essentially indicates someone who is without shame when it comes to promoting themselves. Someone for whom there no low is too low. It takes a lot forms. People advertising the fact that they'll follow you if you follow them. People who post comments everywhere that subtly direct others to look at their stuff. People who are, in essence, willing to trade a reputable image for hard view counts and upvotes.
I... will be honest. I do think that adding your story to literally every group that'd take it falls under this umbrella.
I'm admittedly a little split against myself on this issue, though. I mean, as admitted before, I personally take steps to make sure my stories will end up in at least a handful of the most relevant groups. I think the majority of Fimfic authors do SOMETHING when they post a fic that they know/hope will increase the number of eyes on it. We're all playing the game here--some of us a little harder than others--and it's hard to find a moral reproach for people who just take that a step further.
Like, where do you draw the line on that? Is there a sliding scale of shame, and do you go further down on it every time you add your story to a group that isn't particularly relevant to it? Do you lose x shame every time you post a comment mentioning that you wrote a story once relevant to the situation and if you want to see what happened there, check this link?
I'unno. Maybe we're a little too hard on the "story-whores." Maybe they're just playing the same game with a more competitive focus--like people who optimize their Pokemon teams to stomp on anyone who dares show up with Pikachu and friends. I guess it'll always sort of be a question in the air as to whether we should revile these people, or learn how to compete with them, that we might be able to be on even grounds with the kind of benefits they can leverage. Everyone does want popularity, to some extent. It's just sort of the question as to what we think it's okay to do in search of it.
For better or worse, though, we tend to revile the people who play too hard--or, at the very least, turn our nose up at following their example. People who do this are seen as stained, and whether they deserve to be seen that way or not, that's how that particular cookie crumbled.
Whether it's technically okay or not, a lot of people feel it isn't, and the way you'll be seen for doing it will reflect this.
So, I guess my primary question for people who resort to this sort of thing would be: knowing that people see this sort of practice as disreputable, knowing that this is considered to be playing the system for all it's worth... Do you think the reputation hit is worth it? And--be honest here--do you think that being willing to trade reputation for whatever hard-number benefits is a good thing?
Do you, in essence, feel it's okay to gain the world, if it means other people feel you've lost your soul?
I'unno, I'm hungry. Do I have any beef jerky? Let's find out.
HIGH FIVE FOR BEEF JERKY!!
m.c.lnkd.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/p/1/005/057/043/3db1d0f.jpg
... That came to mind.
Optimal is boring, and does reflect badly upon the author in this case. I had something to contribute, but then I forgot it.
i feel that i should point out that,due to Values Dissonance,the American Bronies groupe really is necessary.
Implying I have a soul to begin with.
And on the note of mass group adding, I suppose the best way to add it to every single group you possibly can without flooding the feed is doing so in little bursts. Add it to five or six groups initially and then three or four every hour afterwards. People will be constantly reminded of your fic throughout the day and if you pace yourself right, the next few days.
I'm not too sure myself, it's just what i plan on doing.
2273708 montybandial.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/the-todd.jpg
I think the most groups any of my stories are in is around twenty, but like you said, I make sure all those groups are relevant.
Hope your having fun in Peru!
Now, to the meat of this: I don't tag my stories in groups. Ever. I just don't feel comfortable with it, for basically the reasons you outline as being why you're against group-whoring; it feels too much like I'm trying to force my story onto someone, rather than let them find and (hopefully) enjoy it on their own. Every group that one of my stories is in, it was added to by one reader or another.
But I don't have any animosity towards people who do group-whore, personally (that's a great phrase, by they way). The thing is, I see the difference between what I do and what they do as one of degree, not of kind. When I write a story, I post it publicly on FiMFiction, I usually write a blog post both here and on my review blog to let people know that I just wrote something and encourage them to check it out, I submit it to Equestria Daily... I do numerous things to promote that story. It just happens that the line I personally draw between "spreading the word" and "playing foul" is quite a bit farther back than the group-whores'.
Now, I do feel a twinge of jealousy when I see a fic make the featured box based on group adds, cover art, or the like--or rather, when I see a fic do so which I assume made it for one or more of those reasons. But in the end, I'm promoting my fic to the degree I'm comfortable with, they're doing the same, and readers aren't exactly suffering from an inability to find decent fiction (one thing I've always appreciated about this site compared to other fanfic repositories: how (comparatively) easy it is to find good stories). And as long as the person who wrote the story in question doesn't feel dirty or cheap doing it, I think that's fine.
The wisdom of the of the Obsman speaks once again.
Also holy fuck, over 50 groups... Jesus Christ.
In the context of the Most Dangerous Game entries, I think I know which story inspired this post.
And whether I'm right or not, the story I'm thinking of was in over 180 groups last I checked. Just for comparison's sake.
I think the real problem here is that there are too many groups with basically no submission criteria, as well as an excessive number of groups that are, quite frankly, redundant.
How many of those groups actually make the site better? How many of those groups would actually be missed if their founders deleted them? Do we really need several dozen groups about Princess Purplesmart? And aren't these sorts of groups basically just opt-in spam mailing lists?
It's kind of a problem with the entire group system; it's too easy to create a pointless group, which festers on the site forever and ever, drawing in hapless suckers and generating no real value.
2273731
I'm in agreement that it's a big question of degree, and mostly how far we're willing to go on that end. Adding your stuff to a group, finding good cover art, or whatever are ultimately just moves in The Game, and the question is really which moves go so far as to be "unfair" -- even if they're not specifically against the rules. I'd like to think that adding a story to maybe 60-70 groups is at the least pushing that boundary, even if it's not fundamentally different from adding it to a handful of largely-relevant groups.
I suppose the issue is actually more social than it is personal. It's not necessarily whether you're personally comfortable with adding your story to an ungodly number of groups or whatnot, so much as whether you're willing to do so with the knowledge that people will look down on this practice and that it will cost you esteem in the eyes of the community writ large.
And, I guess, what it might say about you if you are indeed willing to make that trade.
Oh, and thanks for the well-wishes!
I think the most groups any of mine were/are in is, like... MAYBE 15. (And I didn't even ask ANY of those groups. They just... found me.)
Huh. Interesting take on it.
I always tell my friends, blog, and then add my stories to a few major groups. Sometimes I add them to a few smaller groups, but I don't think I've added them to groups where they didn't relate. (If I find that I have, I will gladly remove them, though.) As frustrating as it is that I've never reached the feature box, I don't really want to cheat to get there. I guess that's why it still has some meaning for me.
Actually, though, it seems to be disadvantageous to overpromote. There are people who like to downvote things solely for spamming their feed or for being added to groups they don't belong to. I don't know. If I knew how to game the system, maybe I'd have made the feature box already. I'm more concerned about the quality, the like/dislike ratio, and the likes/views ratio than about heat.
And now that I've made it look like I'm posturing as if I'm morally superior to everyone, I think I'll stop talking now.
P.S. Good on you for going to Peru to help out, Obs. That's really cool!
Well, I don't group whore. I actually feel awkward adding fics to groups unless they're laser-focused on the story's content, which for me usually means adding my Optimalverse stories to that group and that's about it. 'I Can Wait' is right this moment sitting at the top of the feature box and is part of a grand total of one group.
On the other hand, I can't say that I didn't want it to be there. I gave it a simple but relevant piece of cover art, and stories with art tend to fare better. That same sense of simplicity and brevity applies to the description I wrote as well, less is so often more in these cases. I submitted it at around two in the afternoon, knowing that doing so all but guaranteed that the heat it got from my regular readers would push it into the box right around when the evening surge of readers showed up, which would have a cumulative effect. The word count is in a sweet spot where it's long enough to benefit from the algorithm's tenancy to give more weight to longer fics, while still being short enough that it's not a huge commitment for a reader who might be curious but turned off by something long form or incomplete. And of course, I have a whole lot more followers than most authors do.
None of those were things I specifically did to ensure I'd get it to the top of the feature box, and none of them impact the quality of the story. But I can't say that I was unaware of the effect they'd have either.
I don't know if I have a point here, but I don't really do much to promote my material yet it would be a challenge for me to post a story that didn't get into the feature box at this stage. It's easy to be virtuous in the absence of temptation, I suppose.
Well, you're part of the system that built things this way, and, frankly, you have so many followers literally anything you write is likely to get featured. Even people like RainbowBob miss the featured story box, though.
Making the feature box gets eyes on your story, and everyone always wants to make the feature box.
Adding to a billion groups makes it more likely your story will do so... at least, presumably, I dunno if anyone has ever proved this.
Have you ever NOT read a story because it got added to a bunch of groups? Cause I haven't. I don't think I've even read a story because it got added to a group in ages. But I know that I USED to do so... so maybe, just maybe, it means that I've read stories that got promoted in this way.
I haven't engaged in this, but I've contemplated whether or not it would be worth doing. It seems a bit silly not to, and given that all the groups exist for the sole purpose of getting said stories... well, I'm not sure what there is to be said.
I mean, if you look down on people for adding it to so many groups... well, doesn't that mean that you're saying they're cheating? But isn't it cheating to have a bunch of followers, which is a resource not everyone has access to?
Adding to groups is a common resource for everyone; so is promotion via forum posts or elsewhere. And the fact of the matter is that many of the most popular stories are so heavily read because they are linked to from so many different places - TV Tropes, various wikis, ect. I mean, is My Little Dashie really the best thing the fandom has ever produced? No. Not even close. But it is incredibly heavily linked to.
In my eyes, if you want to prevent this, then you just need to make it be against the rules. The real solution is just not to allow any "anything goes" groups to have stories added to them. But I don't know that people really want that, and that doesn't solve the problem of various other very broad demographic group (say, American Bronies for example).
There's a natural limit on forum promotion - people will ban you if you are too much of a whore.
Group promotion is nothing more than yet another way to get people to read your story, and is much less obnoxious than forum promotion anyway.
I dunno. I thought it was pretty clever when people did this. It seems reasonable - they are using the groups for the intended purpose, after all - and they are making the feature box, so why shouldn't they do it?
Wouldn't be better to add your story to those sixty groups or whatever over, like, a week or two? Doing it all at once just means that the same ~2k people are online when all the notifications pop... if you spread out the love, it's less obnoxious and has a chance to reach people who might not've been online when you first posted it instead of getting buried all in once place.
I'll be honest though, I follow most of the groups I do because they fit the types of stuff I write. I personally am not about to add my stories to groups that they have little to nothing to do with it, but I do feel like a major purpose of groups is to get your story out there for people to see it, so I can at least understand the appeal it has.
2273708
What the hell, man? You're doing it wrong:
terrariaonline.com/attachments/brohoof-n1295673043582-png.5122/
Peru? Heck, I hardly have time for ponies without leaving my home state. Be careful and stay safe, dude.
I will admit that, realistically, I feel that reward outweighs reputation in quite a few areas. As long as the actions you take do not harm anyone, it's okay to do what's best for yourself, even if many people will think less of you for it.
But, when it comes to fanfiction, my opinion on the matter differs. What you describe in this blog is, to me, simply annoying. And, one may argue, it often seems to net your story a negative reception. No matter how many eyes are on your story, if the majority of those eyes feel like they've been wronged or that you've played the system, you never come out on top.
2273774
Well, that is true. I guess it's a lot easier for people already in the popular kids' club to be high-minded about what is and isn't okay to do in pursuit of popularity.
That said, I can't help but feel like there are some moves that're more agreeably in bad taste than others? It's harder to get mad at submitting at afternoonish and finding good-looking cover art. For various reasons, I guess. Obviously it'd be unreasonable for people to expect you to actively hinder yourself by finding bad-looking cover art or posting at two in the morning.
I think things like these are generally agreed to be "fair" moves in the game. They're reasonable to make, and they can be made for other reasons than "I wanted absolutely everyone in the room to see this story--whether or not they were looking for it."
Adding a story to 60-70 groups, or posting hinting comments in other places that try to steer people to look at your story... I think moves like those are harder to interpret as anything other than... well, "I wanted absolutely everyone in the room to see this story--whether or not they were looking for it."
I mean, it does get easier to sneer at this sort of thing from a high-up perch, where these tactics aren't particularly needed, but maybe there are some moves that are just unscrupulous at any level. The world's best baseball players don't need corked bats to hit better, but using a corked bat isn't something any player should be doing to try to improve their batting.
Of course, corked bats are specifically against the rules, rather than just in poor taste, but I hope the comparison holds.
I once had one of my own stories group-bombed by some stranger, curiously enough. Hey, I'm not complaining, but I think that's beside the point.
What I think 2273731 is getting at, if I could summarize his wonderful spiel, is that people have the perfectly justifiable and understandable desire to get their stories, and in turn themselves, attention. When one starts out as a new user, there's always the want to get themselves noticed, to be recognized for what they've done. Now whether or not that's the right mentality to have with writing is entirely different conversation, but the point stands that by and large, people want to get noticed, especially when they start out so small. There's plenty of ways to do this, but group-whoring is perhaps the easiest and most accessible. It's just nature, I guess.
Now, not to rag on the guy, but after reading that I think I'm far humbler than Chris apparently is. I don't submit my stories anywhere (save one my friends hang around) to promote myself unless I truly think it's something special; I believe that a successful story should be able to stand on its own merits, and while support is nice (large follower count, features, groups, et cetera), I find the most earnest mediums are through word of mouth, such as the word of a friend or some of this community's numerous review and recommendation outlets, and those are the ones I strive for.
It's kinda like painting a mural in a public space. Nobody's obliged to pay it any mind, because it's not in the way and they'll likely not notice it anyways, but a few might. And they might talk about it with their friends. Maybe a picture of it'll appear in the local paper. Write for yourself and if others happen to follow along for the ride, then cool beans. I'm not trying to keep 'em there.
Which leads into my point about the people who get all intrusive about how they get their attention. Adding a story to a group or submitting to Equestria Daily is nice, but it only really affects the author at hand. As I said before, I can understand that desire. But what I don't understand and what I find myself unable to support are the people who actively, as you've said Obs:
I can get people asking for help editing their stories. I can get people asking innocent questions. I can get people wanting to connect in some way. This is how friendships are forged after all, and I'll be damned if I hadn't heard about something something ponies are little and friendship is magic. But then there's the people who don't really want to get to know you better, they just want you to pay attention to them, and they're grossly direct about it too like they have no shame. For instance, over in Seattle's Angels, we have a very clear policy about people being unable to recommend their own stories for our features. And yet, we still see it. I see it on others' user pages. I've gotten a PM or two myself. I personally turn a blind eye to such things and disregard them, but it's still baffling. Reputations proceed people, and acting so shamelessly isn't going to make me want to do whatever it is they want. If anything at all, it makes me want to avoid them.
I should repeat that I have no problem with people wanting to get their stories the attention they think they deserve. I understand that completely, and passive means like adding to groups is just dandy because, as Obs had said, it's a victimless crime. But that's no excuse to get in others' faces about it, especially ones who don't know you at all. There's people who advertise they'll take self-promotions, such as Equestria Daily or more recently, The Royal Guard. But then there's people who don't advertise themselves like that, and they shouldn't be intruded by you because you want your 100th like on your story about Rarity working in the mines. Respect others and respect yourself.
2273878
There is no way I spent an hour writing that.
This is why I don't publish as many things as I'd want.
2273888
Hush you.
I tend to have a very liberal mind with this kind of thing, that being that I just simply don't care. But I don't care even more when I realize that all of those notifications . . . I'm not looking at any of them. RARELY do I find a story due to it being added somewhere.
But I think that brings up the bigger point anyway. Group story addition notifications are, by and large, rather ignored. Not that they aren't noticed, of course. People just don't go and click on a story based on its title and genre. Well, sometimes they do.
Either way, I just don't see this being that much of a problem, even if someone goes crazy with it. It seems to be more like someone who hates that incessant ring being sounded a million and one times would have a problem, and then we have a deeper rabbit hole to traverse.
In the end, yeah, whoring is kind of stupid, but you know, we are all stupid in one way or another. It's only human. So, with my liberal mind, I declare that we all just be human.
Also, on that quote . . .
I guess it really rather depends. There are so many possibilities and scenarios for that single quote that range from good to bad.
But overall, no, I don't feel that it is worth it. What's the worth in a world that you gained but no one recognizes you anymore?
Live life, achieve, but always remember your roots, who YOU are. I believe Rarity has learned that lesson before.
2273745
Also, just a random observation . . .
Every blog post you make has literally the same exact people comment every single time, including me.
Gotta say, that's devotion. Props to you, my friend. But then again, I have the same thing happening to me all the time. It certainly feels good.
I tend to post around five in the morning, don't typically add my own stories to any groups and follow very few of 'em, only such as actively interest me. I've almost never had the feature box in more than two years of writing. I've got close to 600 readers. I suppose it could be more.
I'm also hosting two Bronycon panels, one a fun and silly little thing called Hoof of Argon, one called Expert Writing which I'm doing with Wanderer D. It's the second year I've done a 'so you think you're hardcore?' panel, and nobody bats an eyelash, not then, not now.
From this lofty stance, I'll suggest that just possibly these social-media shenanigans simply devalue the worth and significance of an FIMfiction follower.
Listen.
You only have so much time and attention. I'm old, it's easy for me to see that now. I wasted decades on foolish things. When so many of you get into an arms race and spend your time manipulating FIMfiction mechanics to make every visible sign of horsewords be a heavily linked, ill-thought-out brief spew of shoddy grammar, that is a foolish thing. You made it to the top of the dungheap by pooping faster than the other horses, and then wonder why the applause is perfunctory, and then you're digging your way out again.
Do something real. Spend no time on any of that, use the time you save to think about what stories you want and need to tell. I've written more horsewords in two years than all of Narnia, than all of LOTR, because there were a few people I liked who enjoyed it… eloquently.
I now have a decent chunk of the top 50 popular writers reading my work avidly, and when I move on to other things, they'll return now and then to reread what I've done, because to them it mattered and was kind of a big deal. I didn't try to get EQD since the first pony story I wrote. Never did see the feature box, book after book. My second book was written mostly without seeing the front PAGE at all, because at the time story updates were one click away from the front page, and 'Twilight Sparkle Verbs The Noun', 1001 words at a time, ruled the day. And yet, here I am…
Do something real. You're not losing some debatable soul in exchange for filthy lucre.
You're losing your life, and you only get one, kid.
Do something real.
Hello Obs,
Kudos for doing good works IRL!
I generally only add a story to groups where I think I have a chance of getting some feedback, often based on a recommendation from a reader.
As to authors who post their stories everywhere, well, if that's what makes them happy I don't see the harm in it except to their own reputations if they post inappropriately.
Extremism in the pursuit of story views is definitely a vice.
That said, I never really notice it unless the story in question is added to multiple groups that I also belong to all at the same time. I almost never look at the groups any given story is in, and I am fairly sure the practice being described here has never actually stopped me from reading something. So while it may be a vice, from a personal perspective it's probably a harmless one.
I don't really know how effective spamming your story in 'anything goes' groups is. More often than not, I just ignore the posting of stories in groups I'm a member of because I'm not really looking for new reading material. I sort of wonder how many others ignore those notifications as well, especially in groups like The Shameless Self-Promotion Bureau where most of the members are there to promote their own work and not necessarily to seek out new stories to read.
I like the idea of spreading my group additions out because I can spread the promotion across multiple time zones and multiple days to try and hit a wider audience than whoever happens to be online on Thursday afternoon.
Edit: I also find I get better returns from submitting my story to groups that screen for quality.
Honestly, while i'd probably point and laugh at the people who do it, I lose the ground to complain when you look at it objectively. The site was built this way, and it could be equally argued that the users who *don't* group-spam are cutting themselves off at the knees or having to work harder for the same benefit. Each person's stance on that is of course their own, but unless you're going to instate a limit on how many groups a story can be in, similar to what you did with characters, then the people who flood groups have the freedom to do so.
Though speaking personally of course, i know when a story of mine hits the box, it's because it earned it. Or because I wrote Pokemon crossover... Or Winningverse.
I'll just hide under the couch now.
2273815
I add my stories to 15-20 groups. I admit this. I wrote a blog post on exactly why group-whoring is a good thing, and why it matters. 40, 50, 60 groups? That's excessive, because there's a limit to how many groups are story/topic related and how many are author-related. American Authors or LGBTQA Writers might be good places to hang out and chat, but adding a story there doesn't say anything about the story. That's the difference.
2273731
Which makes it near-impossible, as a reader, to find those stories.
The Search feature just doesn't cut it; Groups are the best way by far to find stories that interest us. Eakin ( 2273774 ) can get away with this because he's got 2K+ followers who'll push almost anything he writes to the Featured box; he acknowledges this. But authors who don't have that luxury and don't get Featured immediately will have their stories drop off the New Stories sidebar within hours, never to be seen again (unless they're EQD'd one day). Unless, of course, they add the work to story-appropriate groups, whose Notices show up in member inboxes.
Now, counter-argument and corollary: ClanCrusher joined the site this month, published his first story here, added it to no groups and with 0 followers, is sitting in the Featured box with 100 likes right off the bat. That speaks to quality, timing, story length, subject, everything that Eakin mentioned, and perhaps a little luck too. So I did what I always do: I added it to 7 or 8 groups for him. Not because the story needed more heat (obviously), but to make finding it easier in the future and let potential readers know it's out there. I consider it less whoring, especially in this case, than a service to readers.
Think for a moment what Twilight would do if you walked into her library and dropped a sheaf of papers on a random shelf, unlabled. She'd go Cherneighbyl on you. Failing to properly classify a work of literature? Heresy! That, for me, is what Groups do: they classify and specify what a story is about in ways the character and genre tags will never be able to do.
Personally, I'm still weirded out that other people added one of my stories to the Shameless Self-Promotion Bureau. That seems to defeat the point of the group.
In any case, I do add my stories to relevant groups I happen to be a part of, but I've joined a group just to add a story to it only once, and I felt bad about it afterwards. I guess my shame score is just too high.
Those who carpet-bomb groups with their stories... well, it smacks of desperation, but as has been noted, who looks at the groups list when deciding to read a story? I guess if it works, then it works, even if I personally don't like it.
Oh good, I'm within reasonable bounds on this. :V
I also don't see the point in adding stories to groups with under 100 members. You can't count on more than a tenth of them reading it (or, likely, being active). Savviness will maximize the benefits of quick group-adding.
I'm more or less on the fence with this topic (as well as a number of others, but that's besides the point). I think it's okay to add a story to as many groups as it'll fit, but that one shouldn't expect views to skyrocket from doing this, since group notifications are so plentiful that people will often skim down the list and miss stuff they might otherwise be interested in.
As for whether people should turn their noses up at this practice, it all depends on what kind of person you are. If you're of the mindset that "I've gotta get popular, I've gotta get noticed by this site" and you see someone adding their stories to a crap ton of groups, you're only going to be all the more driven to follow their example. On the other hand, if you're more laid back and don't really give a crap about how popular you are here, then odds are you'll dismiss the former practice as little more than attention whoring and whatnot.
Like I said, I'm on the fence here. I do add my stories to all relevant groups upon publication, but at the same time I'm only a member of so many groups so I'm not in danger of being seen as trying too hard to get popular overnight.
Anyway, how's Peru treating you?
I find it annoying that my thread is full of stories being added to groups.
I'm pretty sure I know exactly who provoked a blog about this topic, and I have to say, I agree that it's in extremely poor taste to add your story to 70-plus groups (not to mention a whole bunch of reddits) over the course of just a few minutes.
I mean, what the hell, man? Are you that desperate for someone to look at your story, especially when you're actually doing pretty well in terms of popularity here?
The problem is how all over the place groups are. There are multiple groups about specific characters and genres, but there are also groups that have little or nothing to do with actual stories. Heck, there are even groups I've seen that people made just for all their favorited stories! And that's fine; I'm in one or two random groups myself. Though I keep the groups I'm in to a minimum, as well as how often I add to them.
Because I have no problem with people having their stories on a lot of groups. For some, other people will add their stories to groups for support, which is a nice and kind gesture. And also, it's a way to communicate with the groups and say, "Hey, I got this story. Check it out, I guess." I find that as long as they're relevant to the group in some way, meeting the criteria--even those random groups--it's someone's way of spreading the news of their story.
However, I do agree the limits should be known. Adding them to so many groups--especially that many--in so little time feels like a cop-out. Do you really need seventy groups to get attention on your story? I doubt that. I once joined a group just to add my story, then left. I felt bad because it was so cheap! If you're only joining a group to add stories, you should reconsider, especially considering how few people actually pay attention to group notifications these days. I doubt it does much.
So while I get it that someone wants to add to as many as possible to get the most possible responses, there are other ways for someone to gain attention on a story.
2273815 I think I know who brought this discussion up, but just to be sure. Who's the one we're talking about here?
Keep in mind that groups also function as a de facto LIbrary / Bookshelf system because FimF doesn't have one (yet). Plenty of group adds (after the fact, not in the initial wave) are from people adding a story to their own personal 1-member group, in which they have folders to organize their favorites. I'd have done the same if I hadn't started a gDoc ages ago to keep tabs on my favorite stories by genre, plot, characters, ships, etc.
Also, back to the story currently sitting on top of the Featured box. When I posted earlier, it was at exactly 100 likes and in slot three. I added it to ten or so appropriate groups, and now a few hours later it's at 163 likes and in slot one. Did the groups help, or was it being Featured at all that helped more? We may never know for certain, but there it is.
I tend to add my stories to a bunch of groups upon publication, but rarely more than 10 or so, and only to pertinent groups (ones for characters who play a major role, themes like shipping/specific shipping groups and such, etc.). I've had times where other people added my stories to like 15 groups in one go, all generic groups too (like I Just Want A Comment or that one for Regidar but all the vowels are replaced with O's or something). I think adding to multiple groups at once is just fine, unless it's ridiculously in excess and/or to groups unrelated to the story.
I agree with you about that. I normally add my group to relevant group, plus like three others to try and get my name out there, but I don't believe I've gone past nine groups. I do think that there are several ways one could play the system in FiMFiction and how they would be perceived by doing so.
One of which, posting extremely short chapters. Like below 750 word chapters. (I've seen shorter in the feature box update around 200ish words) Or just blatantly advertising their fic in the comments or following a follower or even a favorite. I personally find it distasteful to do any of those.
Every like, favorite, or follow I get I feel is truly earned by my stories, not advertising like crazy or getting it from asking people to.
For me, personally, I don't consider it "whoring". I understand that the practice of immediately adding the story to every applicable group would LOOK like "whoring" to everyone else, but you have to consider the position of the authors who do this practice.
When you are starting out, visibility is huge. If people don't see your story, they can't read it. And to be honest, having only five or ten people reading your story while it was on the front page for ten or so minutes is hardly a measure of its true quality, because out of those ten people, MAYBE half of them will rate it, and one MIGHT comment. For a new writer wanting to see how well they did or wanting to get feedback, this is INCREDIBLY discouraging, because a couple people's opinions is NOT enough to judge the quality of your work. You need more feedback, which means getting more visibility, which brings in more readers so you can get a more complete idea of how well your story did.
Now, for the social notifications tab, the one that shows which stories got added to which groups that you are a member of and that shows the blog posts of everyone you are following, it shows the thirty most recently added stories. These stick around much longer than on the front page, which means people see it when they go to check that tab. This is more visibility, which draws in more readers.
The other alternative is to go out of your way and aggressively pursue other FimFiction users who seem like they would be interested in reading and/or reviewing your story. This approach gets you good quality feedback, but it takes time to do effectively for a potentially weak benefit, depending on if folks have the time to follow through on your requests.
The beautiful thing about the social feed is that you can better tell where your story is on this page than while it's on the front page. A smart author would add their story to the first thirty groups they can, and they can see those additions in their own feed. They can also see the rate at which those thirty entries get replaced by other entries from other writers. Once those thirty initial entries get replaced by other stuff, you can then add the story to thirty MORE groups, and rinse and repeat until you run out of groups to add to.
This is more effective than hoping and praying for a site feature or for striking lightning and monopolizing the feature box, because none of that is under any control from the author. The author has MORE control over their visibility in the social feed tab, which leads to more visibility for those authors.
"Well, why don't they just write more stories and get on the front page?! How NOOB are they that they can't get folks' attentions just from their own goddamn story?!?! THEY MUST SUCK HARD BALLS AND BE THE WORST GODDAMN WRITERS IN ALL OF FRICKIN' REALITY!!!!! FUCK THEM AND CALL THEM WHORES, 'CAUSE THAT'S WHAT THEY FUCKING ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
The above is a super-exaggerated opinion carried to a comical extreme that I decided to show here to let people know that, hey, some folks do identify with parts of this statement, probably not in such an intense manner, but they agree with segments of it. I shall now logically deconstruct this argument to show just how illogical and emotionally driven the argument is.
Writing speed is a part of writing technique. It is something that requires mastery through practice AND learning. Folks need to take a moment to reflect on how well they did on something, else they end up repeating the same mistakes over and over again, which no one wants to see. To expect a newbie writer to understand that is unfair to the newb: THEY ARE NOOBS BECAUSE THIS WAS THEIR FIRST TIME! They need to learn from their mistakes, so how can they learn from their first story if nobody gave feedback for it?! Writers both new and old tend to be BLIND to their own mistakes, which is WHY feedback is so valuable. Do you want to see a newb flood the front page with ten obscenely bad one-shots in a desperate attempt to get people to notice them?! IS THAT FAIR OR HEALTHY TO BOTH THE NEWBIE AND THE READERS?! Of course it isn't!
For a newb to get better, they need to build faith in their own ability as a writer. Faith is conscious knowledge put into practice, I.e. a writer studies up on the art of writing and applies their new-found knowledge in their work. They then study the impact their work had, determine what worked and what didn't through both feedback and their own judgment, and put that new knowledge to good use in their next story. And the cycle begins anew, with the result being that the writer grows in knowledge, experience and confidence. The reader benefits by getting better stories with better writing, storylines and plots, both physical and otherwise ;)
This is how human learning works. So for a newbie to grow out of n00bish behavior, they need to be able to apply this cycle to their writing, and feedback is a VERY critical element to it. They need that feedback to grow as a writer so that they DO figure out how to write the kind of stories that grab people the moment they glance at the front page, and if the site doesn't make that search for feedback easy, they will go to great lengths to get it.
And the thing is... the ones who do this are the SMART newbs, those who already understand the need for feedback and know the way human learning works. I can only imagine the poor authors struggling to get so much as a comment on their work without realizing WHY that comment is so important, or those authors who flood the new stories section in a desperate bid for attention with no conception as to WHY they want that attention.
It may look stupid, but the way the site is set up, it's the easiest and most effective way to get attention from a lot of authors. And for a newbie who's eager to learn and improve, THAT is absolutely critical to their learning process. All other methods on the site are very difficult and require a crap-ton of effort for often sketchy or, in worst-case scenarios, non-existent results. And it is nobody's fault that things are this way; it's just how things are. Are they how we want them to be, and if not, what can we do to change it? That may be the more effective question, not if this practice is "shameful" or "worthy of scorn" or something that makes an author a "whore".
Maybe we need a "training ground" as a site feature rather than a separate group, where new and old authors can practice their writing ability in a highly visible environment. The difference is that the author's skill in question would be judged, rather than whether or not their stories got the visibility necessary for effective feedback.
It could work like in League of Legends, where an author can select some positive categories on another author's page, like "This author showed excellent plot construction in their stories", or "this author showed impeccable grammar in their stories", or even "this author gives excellent feedback on stories", or "this author is very helpful in group thread discussions", or "this author writes insightful and/or entertaining blog posts", rather than something like a like-dislike ratio or some kind of author review feature that can be spammed and abused. Plus, there shouldn't be a "demerit" system that's a mirror to this "accolade" system, because the lack of accolades is damning enough. No need to rub their inability to receive praise in their faces by "demoting" them.
There could be a "leaderboard" with "leagues", where the better you write, the more of these accolades you get, and the higher in "rank" you get in FimFiction. Could this result in some writers being in the top at all times? Yeah, it could. Which is why MOST leaderboards show YOUR position on the board as a default, rather than who's in the top ten, so you see where you are and what your immediate competition is. Also, there could be a system where an author has to receive ten or so "accolades" before they can be ranked on the board. Plus, there can be a "global" leaderboard that considers every accolade received, and there could be sub-leaderboards for each type of accolade, with the sub-boards requiring five or so accolades at a minimum to place on the board.
Could this be abused? Sure. Which is why there could be a system where when an author goes to give an accolade, they CAN, not required, but CAN, supply a link to the thread, story or comment that prompted the accolade. All the links for the accolades could be put in a user page module, so folks can show "proof" that they earned those accolades. This also means that skeptical users can see how many accolades are "linked", and can check the links to see if the link is valid for the accolade received.
I'm just spitballing here, but at the extreme least, I hope it makes people think. Newbs need visibility, pure and simple. How else are they gonna get the feedback they need to progress and move forward? Could we put something in place that can help with this? Definitely. Can we do it immediately? Heck no, stuff takes time and effort to change. Should we put that effort in? If we want things to get better, then yes, we should.
Make of my thoughts and ideas whatever you will. I hope this issue gets resolved peacefully, and is discussed intelligently.
Sincerely,
Mr. Album
I'm of the opinion that if their attempts to get noticed don't reach Robert Stanek levels, it's not really worth being bothered by.
2274475
There are a few people who do the groups thing specifically, and they're probably known for doing it, to some extent or other. While the blog got prompted by discussion of one of them, it's really more aimed at people who try to maximize hard view/vote counts on their story (even if it requires doing things that other people see as cheap or unsavory).
2275058
I think the thing here is that if the practice is widely considered to be whoring, then it sort of effectively is whoring. Because there's no standard by which "whoring" is judged except the response everyone else has to it. If most people find it unsavory, then the social consequence of doing it is kind of the same whether or not it is or isn't objectively whoring.
And, while it's true that some people could really benefit from the leg-up it offers, I'm not sure that'd negate the overall unsavoriness of the tactic. Even if a new restaurant offers great food and really needs a boost in popularity, it's still not particularly ethical for them to hire shills to post glowing reviews. There are methods by which they can help boost themselves that are simply "Playing the Game"--and to some extent everyone plays the game--but some methods of climbing the ladder might just be underhanded, y'know?
I want to hear about this Peru gig.
This makes me want to write a story containing a character that has a dilemma similar to this, but to lazy right now to do it... Would probably be interesting to see this
as a contest or even some stories with this theme.