On cutie marks and pony names... · 4:01am May 25th, 2014
Since the topic has come up more than once recently, I thought I would expand on it somewhat. If you already have an idea of what I'm talking about, or you just want to go ahead and get to the part where I ask for your input on an upcoming chapter of "Special Talents", feel free to skip to the end.
The naming conventions of magical marshmallow ponies are not like our own. You may find families with themed names (the Apples), or families with what appear to be last names/surnames/family names in the human tradition (the Pies), but there are no universal rules. Rarity is just Rarity, not Rarity Belle; the prince consort of the Crystal Empire is not Shining Armor Sparkle. As soon as we quit trying to crowbar pony culture into human traditions, we'll all be a lot happier.
Similarly, in many (but not all) human cultures, we have this idea of immutability of the name. Once you have your name, it's yours -- and the only way to change it is through legal means. This wasn't always the case, of course -- in simpler times, it was as easy as moving somewhere new and calling yourself something else -- but as record-keeping improved, this became less practical. (But in those days, you were less likely to have much more than a first name and a descriptor anyway. "They called you John Tallman back home? We've already got a John in our group, and he's taller than you. Where did you say you came from? Jorvik? Okay, but we call it York... and we're gonna call you John York.") I digress, though -- why should we think ponies are bound by the same traditions?
There have been plenty of cultures where someone might be given one name at birth and another at adulthood, or they might change with great accomplishments, or they might change if they felt directed to spiritually. I think several of the native tribes of North America could offer great examples of this, but if you want someone specific, we can cross the Pacific Ocean and look at the life of a guy formerly known as Timujin. Seems to me that there are few events in the life of a magical marshmallow pony quite as big as getting a cutie mark. Seems to me that this would be an opportunity to add to or change your name, if so desired. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does, it probably accounts for a lot of those names that match up improbably well with mark and talents.
Some examples:
Applejack: Name suited her mark and talent. No change.
Rarity: Name indirectly suited her mark and talent. No change.
Twilight Sparkle: Name suits her mark, is arguably related to (or at worst, irrelevant to) her talent. No change.
Pinkie Pie: Name unrelated to mark/talent, but no change. Maybe Amish rock farmers don't have a name-change tradition, or maybe she already had a strong sense of identity. Now that I think about it, a feeling of connection to her family might have been a factor as well.
Diamond Tiara: Well, you've read my story, right?
Some ponies might have had generic, happy pony names until something was added: Cherry Jubilee might have spent her childhood as just Jubilee. Some newborns might have been named for coat colors: Thunderlane could have been Raincloud, and maybe Sea Swirl stole her post-cutie mark name from her childhood friend who's now known as Lyra. Possibilities are wide open, and as I pointed out in a recent thread, it takes a lot of pressure off writers when it comes to naming foals who haven't found their special talents yet.
So having said all that, what would you think would be a good name for a young, high-born, pink-maned filly who has no idea of what her destiny will be? In other words, setting aside what you know of her future cutie mark, talents, magical abilities, and so on -- what would you suggest as a childhood name for Princess Celestia?
(Arcum, buddy, I know I shot down a number of your suggestions some time ago, but I'd be willing to read 'em again if you remember any.)
But yes, agreed. Been saying this for years.
...never thought about what Celestia might've been called pre-destiny (or even pre-cutie mark). It's a good question to be sure, though as a suggestion: you might not even have to answer it if you give some kind of sign, trait or event that allows her to be named that from birth/during very early childhood.
2143196
Regarding Mr. Wonka's revision: okay, you may have something there.
Regarding Celestia: that's a possibility, and I'm not ruling anything out yet... but I still like the idea of her taking on a new name once she gets in touch with the power of the sun.
My sentiments exactly. You touched on different cultures and different naming systems, but what rarely gets mentioned is that even in human culture, there have been different peoples, in different geographic locations, that have had different naming systems. Would it not make perfect sense if some pony families stick to one naming tradition of old, others stick to a different one, and even others might adopt a more modern system.
I believe you hit the nail on the head, but I'm just adding a little something to make sense of apparent chaos.
Pink Posie
Carnation
Lavender Rose
Rich people like flowers
Day Lily (cuz they can be pink and day reference)
Glimmer Rose
2143242
It's perfectly valid.
And then there might even be families (or at least parents) who follow no traditions whatsoever. One of my parodies suggests that Derpy's mother was fond of hallucinogens, and named her daughter after her brightly-colored mane. (It's actually an acronym; her real name is "Dawn's Eastern Ray's of Perfect Yellow".)
2143256 I've heard that before lol. Probably from you.
2143330
I've certainly mentioned it in one of my other blog entries.
2143196
I just recently read a fic where it was mentioned in passing that Celesita had 37 names.
I've always like the idea that pegasi are generally named for deeds, unicorns have family names (and it's not always the 'last' name; Twilight is the family name, and Sparkle is her personal name) [and this rule is only applied to mares, not stallions, since it's presumed that the stallion will take a different name when he's married off], and earth ponies go for dynasty names based on the family's occupation.
To muddy the waters, over the years of tribal intermarrying, the traditions have become muddied, with only the most traditional of families going by the old naming conventions. Add in a bit of modern name-changing after a cutie mark appears, as well as nicknames given by other ponies, and things become messy.
Hell, my maternal grandmother didn't know that the name her parents called her by and the name on her birth certificate weren't the same . . . until she applied for a passport, and couldn't prove she existed. She'd been enrolled in public school with the wrong name, and in those days, school administrators didn't care about that. If you showed up, they trusted you were who you said you were . . . and this happened in the US, in the twenties. I personally don't think that Equestria is that advanced.
2143395
Aristocracy/royalty is sometimes pretty bad for encouraging that sort of thing, yes.
As for multiple, mingled, muddled traditions: also completely valid. Makes sense, even. Forcing ponies into Western European naming traditions like some fanfic writers do? That, I have a problem with.
A good point. It also reminds me of the stories about the millions of people getting processed through Ellis Island, getting their names changed on the basis of some paper-pusher's say-so. "That's too hard to spell. Here's your new name."
2143417
I actually made a joke about that in one of my fics. Luna calls Rarity "Rarity Belle," and Twilight corrects her, saying "It's simply Rarity." Luna then says something about unicorn naming traditions having changed.
You go too far afield, and people bitch, even though there's no reason to assume that ponies give their children good Christian names. But I agree; why should the ponies have a Western naming tradition?
One of my instructors had the last name "Hrbal," and he lamented the fact that people were always adding an 'e' between the H and the R. I assume his parents came over to the US after the Ellis Island folks had gotten out of that habit, or else they misspelled his last name badly. Where I live, there are a large number of Polish families, and I always have to ask them how to spell their names. I can remember how to pronounce them, but I can't spell them. "Dsyzak," for example, disobeys pretty much every English rule.
2143439
Of course, if I ever decide I do want to give a pony a human name, I'll show 'em. I'll show 'em what "too far afield" really means. I'll give 'em a name so over-the-top...
2143461
Without watching the video . . . I had a cassette copy of that sketch, and after the crowd joined in on "Climb Every Mountain," the part where one of the actors was trying so hard to keep going and not just laugh . . . one of Monty Python's greatest moments.
If I ever run for any political office, if I don't win, I want to receive no votes.
Cakebutt.
2143484
Are you attempting to suggest that the derrière of our beloved princess might have been in some fashion shaped by her fondness for baked goods? I'm shocked! Shocked, I say!
2143505
She was born in a bakery, and when she fell out of her momma, she was cushioned by a wedding cake.
I kiiiiinda agree with this - I love the uniqueness of pony names and the flexible, self-driven naming convention - but at the same time, I often give them westernised names because it's funnier. ^^
I've considered this before. In my idea on the typical Pony naming complex, they have their colloquial name, and their family or clan name. Their names are independent from any sort of family name. So, perhaps it wouldn't exactly be "Shining Armor Sparkle," but instead he would have a different family name. Applejack's would most likely be "Apple," even if it sounds funny to add. But that's the thing: in my thoughts on this, Ponies don't use their family names in speech, with very rare exceptions. Perhaps Pinkie's family name isn't "Pie," and instead is a sort of traditional addition to her name. Much like how ancient Roman emperors would have many additions to their name but would use the royal addition as their new name.
On the off chance you care, my headcanon for pony nomenclature is that it's been shot to hell since the days of Discord. There are several different traditions (patronymics, matronymics, inherited surnames, themes, whatever seems like a good idea at the time, etc.) but even now they're still randomly distributed. No one knows how ponies identified themselves and their foals before Discord, and he's certainly not saying anything. Name changes after cutisynthesis don't help matters.
In any case, I'm going to suggest Carnation for young Sunbutt... and apparently, I'm in agreement with theRedBrony. Well then.
Hmm, a pre-ascension name for Celestia, I'd have to say Morning Glory (flower reference). Luna, if her sister is to appear in the story, Evening Star, or Twilight Dream, (yes, Tolkien reference the first, show allusion the second). Ponies definitely seem to follow horse naming conventions, which do seem to give thematic names to some bloodlines, while some just seem to just buck the trend.
Silver Spoon by Citation out of Silver Fog (actually the subject of a previous blog of mine)
Cozmic One by Bernardini out of Zeyatta (no thematic name connection apparent)
Pound Cake by Carrot Cake out of Cupcake (best surname reference, albeit from the show)
Celestia's name doesn't even relate to the sun, at least not directly. Doesn't Celestia mean "sky" or "heaven" or like something that's up in the sky? Well, the sun's up there, but so are the moons and such. I guess you can use the "heaven" definition and say that Celestia is pretty heavenly, which is true. Her personality has her being nice and near-perfect if not perfect.
I really like your idea of pony names. Whenever I read a fanfic that has the words "Applejack Apple" and "Rarity Belle" in it, I cringe. Why would Sweetie Belle consent to be called by her entire name, including her last name, but Rarity's like "Pfft don't ever call me by my last name lol"? For the most part I don't even like giving ponies middle names. Sometimes I see Diamond Dazzle Tiara which is a cute callback to the toy line but ehhhh.
On a sidenote I find it interesting how basically no one calls Twilight by her full name in the show. We know it's Twilight Sparkle but we all call her Twilight 98% of the time. Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash get called "Pinkie" and "Rainbow" sometimes but the characters do call them by their full names a lot. Not Twilight, though. I've always found it interesting.
Anyways, I like your idea of ponies changing their names after they get their marks. Diamond to Diamond Tiara. Perhaps Diamond's original name was Diamond Dazzle and she changed it to Diamond Tiara? That's a thought.
What kind of name would a cute little white and pink alicorn be called? You could give her a long and important-sounding name. You could give her a name that reflects her status but she absolutely hates it because the name makes her sound like she's better than others when she doesn't want to be(I'm thinking about how upper-crust Jet Set and Upper Crust's names are. And Filthy Rich's name. It tells everyone that "oh hey im high class and rich lol" which is probably something Celestia wouldn't want. She doesn't strike me as a bragging pony.) A name based on flowers like what some have suggested would work too. I can't seem to think of any original names myself, though haha
2144793
I believe so, yes. But I see it as tying into her destiny (for lack of a better term), even if it's not a direct connection to her cutie mark and/or talent.
That line of thinking has potential. I'll have to see if I can some up with something suitable...
I think Bright Dawn would be a cute, generic name for Celestia. White clouds and a tinge of pink as the sun rises. Or if you want something super generic but amusing, perhaps Snow White? Strawberry Frosting? Rosehip Tea? Chrysanthemum?
Edit: Also I agree on the naming thing, though I'm also willing to think they have fortune tellers who suggest baby names as part of foal shower party events. Pinkie threw the one for the Cake Twins and I bet she'd do something like that.