On Writing Fics and Quality Control · 7:40am Apr 23rd, 2014
So I've done a fair amount of thinking, as well as discussing with a fair number of my buddies on a certain topic that I find very intriguing and relevant to me as a writer in this fandom. A few days ago I watched a video that discussed quality control in the fandom. It's basically an opinion piece on fan-works within our fandom. And for my part, I'm just going to be applying it strictly to fanfiction, primarily because that's what I am concerned with. But first here's the video:
* * *
One opinion on this topic is: There are fan works that are stunning and awesome out there. Things that are worthy of attention, and should honestly get more of it. Yet, quite often, we find these beautiful stories only after digging through a great deal of sludge. This sludge is composed of people who saw the success of those stories and authors and thought, 'I want to be like that.' They got on the bandwagon and began writing spinoffs, clopfics, and whathaveyou. Yet what gets on the nerves of the reader sifting through this sludge, is the number of positive comments some of the sludge gets, praising it in spite of how awful it is. A large number of these stories get more popular than they have any right to be. That popularity, and the nearly endless slew of poor quality stories have, in turn, slowly spread out as a stain and effectively has lowered the overall quality of the writing in this fandom. The good stuff gets buried in the sludge, causing the stories that truly deserve to be known, simply to go unread.
The best way to fix this problem would be to raise standards. Readers should be more concerned with what they read and find ways to cut the chafe away from the good stuff, by leaving comments that show a displeasure for the stories that are awful and discourage the production of poor stories, instead of being so supportive of someone's awful first attempt to the point where the new author tricks themselves into thinking that what they made was a really great story. Being so supportive is a disservice to the author, and it doesn't allow the author to improve as a writer.
* * *
Another opinion on this topic is: A staple of this community is how positive and supportive the people are in general. Many new authors start out making awful stories, but they will improve. Serving them a harsh critique only ends up dealing a harsh blow to their self-esteem as a new writer, that can often lead to them deciding to give up and not to pursue writing anymore when they could have improved and eventually written something great. Being kind to the new talent in the community provides a fertile ground for the author to grow and learn within. If we cut back on the praise, then new talent will be discouraged from ever taking root, and we'll be denied many potential great stories in the future.
Great stories will still be found in the murk of new authors writing their first stories, or in the swath of fics that some make to try and obtain the same popularity that an idol of theirs has. While there'll be more stories overall, there will also be more great stories in there. It isn't right to stop those stories by nipping the budding author in the bud. For if there is even just one person that is able to become a great author due to the positive reinforcement of the fandom's kindness, then it is entirely worthwhile to keep leaving those kind and encouraging words.
* * *
And that is pretty much the two sides to this situation. I am, honestly, very much torn between these two stances, and here's why: I am a writer, and like a majority of writers on this site (at least from my experience) my first real venture into writing was indeed on this site. I started off as an awful writer. My grammar was terrible, and I couldn't write more than two characters in a scene at a time (heck that's half the reason that Sweetie ends up leaving Ponyville in Scion of Chaos—my inability to write the Mane 6 in a manner that I felt honoured the original characters). However, there were still people who read my story and commented on it. They said wonderful things that inspired me to keep writing. Truly, those comments kept a smile on my face for the whole eight months it took to write the story. It was certainly one of the—if not the—best year(s) of my life.
Because of that support, I do totally understand and have to support the second side of the argument. However, the other half of the argument has me held just as strongly, and here's why: I'm a writer, and I care about what I write. I'm also a reader and I care about what I read. I strive to improve, and I'll be damned if I don't also love to see others improve as writers as well. As such, it really wears on you when you sift through that sludge of stories looking for gems. You read a story that assaults your senses of proper grammar and just makes you cringe as you read it; it's nearly physically painful. You begin to doubt whether the one who wrote such a story really cares about what they are doing. And then to top it off, you read the comments and you can't help but shake your head at the people who say they enjoyed such a poor and battered mess of a story.
But then I remember my humble beginnings and give these people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they are just learning and are going to improve. Perhaps they didn't mean to assault my senses as keenly as they did. Maybe sending them a kind and gentle suggestion for improvement could be worth both our whiles. The author would improve and edit the story, and the future stories that they release will have fewer problems, clearing up some of the sludge the next time I go looking for gems.
But sometimes I can't help but feel like those authors ignore those soft words I leave as comments, and they choose not to edit their stories. They continue to write senseless sludge with no care for it at all. And that thought irks me when it pops up, because I find the actions of these people to be disrespectful. It's disrespectful to those who write better stories, because they'll get buried in the mass of these uninspired fics. It's disrespectful to those who are writing to improve, because it bleeds away the attention that new stories need and thrive on. And finally, it's disrespectful to the authors of the sludge stories themselves, because the attention they are getting is not heartfelt.
Luckily, I do realize that the majority of the people who decide to write on this site do so out of a desire to improve. So it will always be in my best interest to help out where I can and give those kind, yet hopefully critical comments to help a new author improve.
I'll leave this small opinion piece with a bit of... an opinion for those who are looking to try their own hand at writing. Truly, I do know how it feels to start writing and to struggle to get an audience for your work. I have been there and I have struggled. Writing is a struggle, like anything that's worthwhile. If you can't spend hours and hours working away at your writing both in your head, and also in the physical act of writing/typing it; learning what you did wrong or right; and following through to the end and completing the story, then you might want to rethink being an author. It's not easy. However, if you do decide to write, then please, write a story that that you enjoy reading. So long as you are honestly having fun, and/or seeking to improve, then I have absolutely no problem with you as a fellow writer on this site. Absolutely none. And I wish you all the best in your future writing.
This was a topic that took me a good week to really figure out exactly where I stood on it. If nothing else, writing this blog did allow me to firmly establish my stance, and I feel much better having done that. I want to thank DR.Wolf and Firebrand for piquing my thoughts on this topic, and for my good Office buddies for taking stances that are different than my own, which in turn challenged me to really think about this. Thanks for reading,
~SilentBelle
P.S. There was a response video from Dr.Wolf and Firebrand due to this blog. Here:
This just about sums my opinion up, write to get better and have fun. If you stay true, I'm going to try and read your story.
I am firmly of the belief that people who suck at writing should be encouraged to get better and given the support they need to identify both their mistakes and their strengths. However, authors who aggressively/defensively reject all forms of criticism or constantly churn out creativity-devoid turds deserve to be removed from the populous and put in concentration camps. We need criticism in order to improve.
When I was 13, I was a terrible writer. I posted my fangirl porno fics on the internet and people praised them. I got a big head and did not improve at all. Then other people tore them apart and viciously raped the pieces. Now I am an excellent writer and I know it. I can still get better. That's why I invite my critics to preread for me (this is how DPV111 ended up proofing a lot of my stuff).
It's not that I think this place should be "survival of the fittest". I just think that hugboxes of any kind are counterproductive. If something sucks, it should be pointed out that it sucks, and every effort made to either help the creator improve or derive some entertainment out of the meta part of the experience.
Of course hugboxes are counterproductive if quality is your goal. Basic economics: If you incentivize something, you get more of it than you would otherwise.
Of course the quality of stories on the site would be better if the readers here had higher standards.
But no one is in a position to just up and force the mass of readers here to raise their standards so that the mass of writers will follow suit. That's a daydream. And just haranguing people and telling them what their standards ought to be seems to me like a singularly ineffective way of actually changing anything.
So the question, to me, is: what, if anything, can be done to raise readers' standards in the community, keeping in mind the peculiar and non-intuitive nature of "internet communities"?
I personally suspect that there's no help for the current situation and that anyone who doesn't like it will just have to grin and bear it. But maybe I am overlooking some possible course of action.
2037870 2037833
I would suggest creating a more complex rating and categorizing system for story types that allow readers to better sort and rate stories in a quantitative way, and either remove the "hug-box", as The Parasprite suggested, or radically change the algorithms used to determine top stories.
I could see a more complex rating system involving categories with five star ratings per section and space to leave an explanation for each viewpoint. The reviews would be separate from the comments section, and place more weight on reviewers who have a history of being rated as leaving accurate views (as according to the traditional "this was helpful / not helpful" system). While this method of rating is still vulnerable to a flood of slug accepting readers, it does place accountability to the reviewer as well as the author.
Of course, I think their should be a way to rate editors too, but I'm probably over thinking things.
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TL/DR: For the following dribble related to the blog and not fellow comments, I essentially stated that some budding authors can't handling any kind of criticism and some people who are editing don't know the English language to be performing their job.
I strongly believe that, if you publish something for public viewing, then you are also stating that you are ready for criticism. A problem I've run into is that many "budding" authors that have inadvertently written a story that is not very good tend to become very defensive when a commenter suggests, even politely, ways to improve with some constructive criticism. I've had new authors delete my post and yell in a blog or follow up post about how they are sick of everybody tell them that they're "not good enough" or "I don't know how to get find an editor", and such. The irritating part about these authors, to me, is that they have decent ideas, but lack experience and technical know-how to effectively portray what they are trying to say and refuse to listen to gentle offers to help guide them in a helpful direction.
That said, some authors are VERY receptive to constructive criticism. One author I edit for right now has changed entire portions of their story due to input from her editing team. Though, on the flip side, I've seen authors who have editing teams who seem to either lack all understanding of the English language in written form, have apathetic editors, completely ignore their editors. There have been quite a few stories I've read with enough errors that I immediately think, "This author must not have an editor," only to found they have three of them.
2037833
This is a double sided coin because no matter how constructive and supportive you are, if the author isn't the mindset to improve it a wasted effort. Even more important, perhaps, is that the way you present your criticism is in a way you won't come off as offensive from pointing them out.
Everyone can improve, but you have to find those that are willing to before beginning the process.
Without the bad one can not appreciate the good, and by that I mean if we only got lets say nice weather every day and nothing else then after a while it whould lose its value and we will just expect it to be nice weather. So I belive that even if we have to suffer trough some really bad stuff and some mediocre stuff, but when we do find that gem we will appreciate it even more becaus of that. After all you will notice pretty quickly if something is worth your time or not and just leave it be to search for something that is more relevant to your interest.
I think the real problem lies with the people that cant take critique of any sort and and refuse to change or improve becaus they strongly belive that are right or what not.
2037992
No it isn't, because people who reject criticism tend to do it childishly, and that leads to lulz.
2037870
If only horses could fly.
2038049
If you're going around giving out help to people who have no intent of ever following said advice, why isn't it a wasted effort? Because they might some day happen to decide they want to follow it, or because others can learn from it?I wrote that before your edit, which I don't agree with but is nothing I can do more than disagree with.2038064
I didn't edit it. What did you think it said before?
2038066
When I first read it, it only said "no it isn't". Which was why I wrote what I did.
2038069
Oh. Maybe I did change it. I don't remember.
That can be annoying, but ultimately I still see it as a valid way to write. Not a good way – if anything, if you never seek to improve then you’re denying yourself one of the ways to have fun with your writing. On the other hand there’s a ton of different reasons why people write, and they don’t all necessarily involve getting better: you can do fanfics as a way to be social, or to unwind after work or school or whatever. If people don’t want to improve then that, unfortunately, is their own choice.
No, like other people have said, what really irks me is when you leave criticism on a story only for that story’s author to throw a temper tantrum, telling you that how dare you insult their writing. And sometimes maybe the fault is with the person who left the comment, but too much of the time it’s that the author can’t take it, or they genuinely can’t see anything wrong with their story. I think these are the people bringing down standards. If you can’t handle criticism then don’t post your story on fimfiction (and for that matter don’t send it to EQD and then complain when they reject it).
Makes me very happy there’s so many decent groups here for quality fanfiction. I don’t read a lot of pony fiction anymore, so thank goodness that there’s people out there (like yourself!) willing to sort through the sludge for those few worthwhile stories
The Featured (Hug) Box is indeed part of the problem, absolutely. Why, just recently my crackfic about Wrex got first place in there, wrestling it away from such quality fics as futa-something-something. Which is cool... and yet not. Fortunately, I didn't see much else in the new fic department at the time that merited the first spot, and soon (24 hours later) it was replaced by some fic on the 'I got drunk and woke up with superpowers!' bandwagon. I was almost offended.
2037833 2037992 have the right of it that people that have no interest in improving, or defend blindly their... product... are some of the worst things in
the universe.the case of Fimfiction.And yes, the 'editors' they choose... sometimes make the story worse. And I love it when the author is so blind that he says: "My editor said it was fne! So it iz!"
Bad editors and unwilling-to-improve authors just make the whole experience annoying. Unless you're trolling them, which I do not endorse (much). But they can be worse... especially when they combine/merge with the worst people in fimfic: the morons that say stuff along the lines of "It's in the Feature Box! Your arguments are invalid!"
As for the blog? Well, yeah, I stand with you in offering support to new authors, and maybe pulling the punches a bit if you're criticizing their first work, but if they don't care (and most of the time they don't) it's a crime to the community to let them continue.
My point of view as a reader is that I will strive to leave a comment on each story I read, pointing in a (hopefully) respectful and clear way any flaws I can find while praising the aspects of the story I liked. If the writer can't take feedback meant to be honest and respectful, then I don't think he has any business attempting to write.
I don't always manage that, though. I've left a few cryptic comments in some stories about the writing feeling "clumsy" to me when it somehow reduced my enjoyment of the story but I couldn't pinpoint why exactly
As a writer... well, for the time being I'm writing almost exclusively for the EQD Writer's Training Grounds, which means 4 days between the prompt and the posted fic. Thus, minimal editing, and often less time to develop the plot than I would like, plus apart from correcting errors I'm not (yet) tweaking most of my already posted stories based on feedback (though I do try to keep feedback in mind for future stories). On the other hand, without deadlines I don't think I would have ever started to write, so I plan to keep taking part on the WTG until the season finale (when I believe the WTG will either end or move to a more leisurely pace), to then attempt to write something with more time and, if I can find help, an editor.
2038228
I haven't heard the second one in quite that context, but I've seen a lot of "It's in the feature box, so it must be well written and good." (Which it doesn't). I'm just so sad whenever I find a concept that's good, but the author doesn't get the right help to grow with the story and make it something great, just because s/he found some really unfortunate help.
(In terms of the attitude of authors, I think the absolute worst one I've come across is "I know it's badly written, it is meant to be that" which is never an excuse for a story being bad.)
I regularly go on shit-hunting expeditions, wherein I go give brutally honest, detailed critiques of poor fics. That's the best thing to do. Make sure you tell them you're not being mean- just honest. That's the best kind of wake-up call.
If you want to help, I could go mark targets for you when I do that- I run out of steam after a couple fics, usually. In fact, I might just start making blog posts full of links to bad stories in need of (de)constructive criticism.
Well spoken SilentBelle...Very well spoken.
I am tempted to put all the words you have written here into a future video, as it would create a lot of excellent discussion. You present your points clearly, and even gave me a few things to ponder about.
Just in case I feel up to doing so, may I have your permission to use these words? I would of course point others to where they came from, but I figure I should ask first.
Let me know. And thank you kindly for adding so much to the conversation that Firebrand and I started.
http://www.fimfiction.net/group/203300/midnight-runners-critic-patrol
Made a group dedicated to this ideal of coordinating strikes on bad fics. Join it, yo.
2038616 Feel free to use these words however you want. I'm glad to be part of the discussion.
2038671 I'm not sure I can agree with this group. While at times I do feel that quality control is nice to have and would benefit the general experience of a reader on FIMFiction, I cannot support a group that wants to hunt down the mediocre stories and point out to the authors over what was done wrong. That's going to step on a lot of people's toes.
If you ask for the author's permission first, then I think it would cause a lot less grief overall, and then it might be a group that I could support. Think about it though, what kind of author would like their story to be added or associated with a group that is known for hunting down the 'terrible fanfiction'? Adding someone's story to such a group is equivalent to telling that person directly, "We think your story is terrible." Regardless of the context surrounding the group, and your wish to help improve the quality of the fics on this site, having such a group is disrespectful to those authors on a fundamental level since they aren't asking for your help. And I can tell that it will easily be perceived, from the author's perspective, that the group is attacking them and their story.
I can't support a group that would add such vitriol between to the new authors and the readers. It runs counter to the environment that I love on this site. I suggest trying to find a less offensive way to go about critiquing other people's work.
This is a problem that I encountered with my own group, where we look for gems, yet provide critiques for anyone who submits a story. One of the stories submitted was one that someone thought was really good, but when we critiqued it, we could not give it a heartfelt recommendation. The author, however had not known about this, and was pointed to the critique that was written. It felt like an unexpected blow to him, and it made us realize how we might stepping on people's toes and disrespecting fellow authors by not asking for permission first--and that ran counter to what our group stands for: elevating and discussing the fictions that we think are worth talking about.
I know you mean to do a good thing with this group, however, I can see what dark situations it might create, and I encourage you to take a second look at your group.
Really, claiming either one is the right and proper way to treat bad art (and fiction is art) is a mistake. Both the carrot and the stick are necessary.
Yes, it annoys me to no end to see the whole of something judged by the "sludge" due to the low barrier of entry, but at the same time, I don't begrudge its existence. Honestly, I feel it's more a problem with the people doing the judging, and a certain blindness to the way the world actually works.
In the case of television, movies, published fiction and music, pretty much everything that most people are exposed to has already gone through a gauntlet of approval. It's led to the mistaken impression that those fields have less chaff. They don't. There are plenty of atrocious musicians playing in their parents' garage, plenty of lousy artists doodling on the back of their notebooks, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this. It's right, it's good, and it's healthy. Quality "control" implies that the chaff should be thrown away, hidden and discouraged. This is absolutely not the answer.
By all means, elevate the stories that deserve it. Put up entire sites dedicated to only showing the publishable material. Give everyone the harshest critique you can—but none of it should ever be about discouragement. Critique is about helping people grow and improve, not killing off the bad.
Of course, there's a question as to what is bad, which I think is a common misconception, and one that the video has a problem with itself. Grammar? Pacing? Basic logic? Sure, those are objective, and yes, I've seen some truly painful things on this site that don't have them. That's not necessarily the message of the video, though. In particular, Twilight is mentioned.
I'm just going to say it outright, I will never support the view of Twilight and like stories as objectively bad. This might seem strange, or even ironic, as I've made fun of it in my own story and have outright stated that I couldn't read more than a chapter or two myself, but the thing is—it does its job. It's enjoyed by its target audience. You may not agree with the target audience. You may think the messages involved are inappropriate or even unhealthy, but those are not requirements for a successful work.
In Sharing the Night, I describe my Twilight stand-in as being "romantic power fantasies for teenaged fillies who thought that Celestia would swoop down one day and recognize how much harder their life was than that of all their peers," and you know what? That's fine. So is The Matrix. So is Harry Potter. There are literary snobs who look down on Harry Potter for its bland prose, and they're missing the point.
Stories are meant to be enjoyed. Whether they're published in a book, posted on this internet or recited to a young girl at bedtime, it's the audience that gets to decide whether or not a work has merit and worth to them. Help the storyteller, promote the good stories, but don't discourage and don't begrudge people their tastes. Sometimes we all need our guilty pleasures.
2038671 Well, there's two issues with that.
a) It misses the point, by a mile.
and
b) If you do that, you might end up harassing people because you're 'coordinating strikes' against fics you consider bad and if a flame war starts, it's going to be your fault, which could end up in banning.
Just to clarify. In regards to the featured box as mentioned here: 2038228. I do include clop in my statement that I don't begrudge people's tastes, but that doesn't mean I think that stories with such different purposes and consumption patterns should be competing in the same list.
2038228 I love you D.
Now, I can agree with the majority of what you said, especially with the bits where criticism is needed. Everybody needs it, assuming those points are valid and not just a personal dislike. I will also agree that you should try to be kind to the people, but I'm going to generally disagree that these do not work hand-in-hand.
Sadly, before I stopped pulling the punches with my critique, the huge, vast majority of the reviews I left on stories, especially the ones where I posted stuff to help, went widely ignored or flamed. People don't react to on-the-fence critique; all they generally see are the two extremes: 'I love this story itz da best
' and 'Your story is terrible (and here's why)'.
Will I say that harsh critique, all punches full-force, can be just as equally ignored or provide a bad taste in a person's mouth? Yes, to both of those, but, generally, those end up coming to the attention of the author, because they elicit a response mentally and emotionally.
I'd also like to note that I absolutely hate people that offer to be editors, but have little to no skill when it comes to editing or properly making use of the English language. That pisses me off to no end, because it ruins an author's ability to improve and provides them with a false sense of defense against scrutiny. Just because somebody edited it doesn't mean they did so properly.
Ugh. I have very amorphous views on this. Let's try to make words.
I try to write. Do I enjoy writing? I haven't decided yet, but it won't be my life's work. I write, though unlike many, not to become famous, but instead to spread the joy I get from reading good stories to others. Granted, becoming well-known is conductive to getting stories read, but I don't want fame. I want to make something good, something worth reading, something that will make the reader feel the way I do when I read a story.
I haven't edited my stories, partly because I've gotten very little feedback, partly because it isn't the story to focus on (I haven't found that yet), and partly because I honestly feel like I haven't really improved throughout my short writing jaunt.
And finally, do I enjoy my stories? Honestly... no. Whenever I see my stories, I can't see past it being mine. All i can see is my work, not the story that resulted. I can't be objective about it. I also have no clue about my quality as an author, but people tell me my work is good. I am disinclined to believe them, though. I personally think I'm bad at writing, and the only way to get better is to keep trying.
Sorry for the sappy opinions.
The crux of the problem is that popularity is at odds with quality. If original and powerful stories were the mode of the feature box, there would not be any debate. Novice authors are not to blame for trying their hand at writing. The problem is that the vast majority of fimfic users are not looking for genuinely well-developed stories. They look for flashy stories with nice covers and catchy descriptions, or focus on a single premise or genre. They are willing to praise bad stories so long as they embody some facet of their own wishes or fantasies. If they were aware they were reading bad stories, they would probably stop reading them.
The only real counter I have found against shallow readers is criticism. Not aggression or story-bashing, just analysis and judgment. I work in groups like The Equestrian Critics Society, WRITE, and more recently Seattle's Angels in hopes that when readers see my reviews, they learn something new. Even if my interpretations and judgments are disputed or even flawed, at least the readers are thinking a little bit more about what exactly they are reading. The fact that criticism also helps the author is an added plus.
Obviously, though, it takes more than one critic, blog post, or video to up the standards of this entire website. Poor or shallow judgment from sites like Equestria Daily and fimfic feature groups only adds to the problem. The only thing that hurts me more than a bad story or a novice reader is a clueless critic.
I think the internet as a whole has an issue with taking criticism. I often correct people's grammar, especially in intellectual arguments, because bad grammar distracts from your point and makes you look foolish. I correct people in order to make their grammar better, not to make them feel worse. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't understand this, no matter how politely I put it, and call me a troll or a grammar nazi. This is just an example but I've seen it in fanfiction reviews too. I remember one review in which the author threw a human named Chris into Equestria and started the story after his having been there for several months. This story wasn't a sequel to anything and this character wasn't even the main focus, nothing in the story would have been lost had the character been a pony, and a comment was posted that mentioned this. Instead of seeing the criticism and realizing what he'd done wrong, the author got really sarcastic and passive-aggressive. One of his replies was "Oh well it's a good thing Chris is half human half pony, you'll see more of his pony form later."
I feel like everyone has some awful ideas in their heads, hell I have hundreds, it's just a matter of whether or not you're self aware enough to realize how bad they are and not post them.
2038756
See, it's good to know that folks like you have a good moral compunction that keeps you from doing such things. That's the sort of caring attitude that keeps our fandom so bright and happy. I'm not one of those people, though. I don't actually care if I step on people's toes in order to show them what they're doing wrong. They can cry all they want, but at the end of the day I'm just telling them what they need to hear- what everyone else was afraid to tell them. Remember "Leap of Faith"? Remember what Applejack learned? When you tell someone a lie, even just a lie of omission, you hurt them in the long run, even if you make them temporarily less happy by bursting their bubble of ignorance. So really, I'm hardly the bad guy here. You're the bad guy, for failing to help your struggling fellow writers. You have the ability to do so- why not reach out and pull them up?
I remember being a member of TWE (Train Wreck Explorers), a group where people posted harsh, though generally constructive, criticism to people who wrote bad fics, back before it was banned. Ultimately, its mission was to help weak writers do better in an entertaining fashion, which was the reason I joined the group in the first place. That may have been a mistake since I personally thought that I probably wouldn't dare try to write a story if it had a chance of being riffed or reviewed by them (not that its disappearance has made a difference, really). So in that case I wholeheartedly support the second opinion.
On the other hand, it wasn't a long time ago that I found myself completely at a loss searching for gems. I favorited eleven fics between Horse Voice's Biblical Monsters and Raugos' Integration, my two most recent "Top Favorites." And those were only the stories that I liked enough to favorite. I don't know if my standards are higher than they used--I still love Fallout: Equestria and The Games We Play, even after a second/third reading--or if I'm unlucky, but finding those stories that remind me "that there are always great stories out there and that the search is worth the effort" [from my comment on Integration] seems to be getting more difficult. So that seems to be in favor of the first point.
One of the Youtube comments mentioned that we as a fandom need to place greater emphasis on the difference between praise and encouragement. This is what I think would be the best course of action, since it solves the problem of "being so supportive of someone's awful first attempt to the point where the new author tricks themselves into thinking that what they made was a really great story" while also somewhat addressing the second opinion. We shouldn't praise obviously bad stories because there is a chance of the author becoming potentially great, but we can encourage them to do better and give them the tools they need to do so. In this respect I believe that the two opinions you mentioned are so far apart that you can find a more suitable middle ground between them.
As for those who don't make any effort to improve and continue to throw out awful stories...I recall Bad Horse saying that one way of dealing with a lack of quality control in the fandom is for people to be less stingy with downvoting, especially considering the relatively good ratings of most sludge stories. I think the onus is on the reader to, instead of focusing on stories written by authors who don't care, focus on recommending stories they enjoy and authors they support, which is something that everyone is capable of doing, but not enough people end up doing. It's a major reason for why I especially like people on the site like Chris and RBDash47 and present perfect and groups like The Canterlot Archives and The Royal Guard.
But mostly I think you're right that as long as people enjoy what they're doing, they shouldn't be stopped or hindered in any way.
2040752 You say the honest truth is what they need to hear, but it isn't always. Some of those people will bounce back from the criticism and become all the better at writing for it. However, there will be some where that sort of criticism will crush them and stop them from pursuing writing. And others who are not aiming to improve, but write as a hobby or for the sense of community it brings (and there is nothing wrong with writing in that manner) and such critique just would be a waste of time on these people.
Now, we do have differing points of view on this. It could be argued that people who are crushed by comments in a public space just aren't cut out to be an author in a public setting, and I do see the validity in that argument. But I also know from experience that a harsh comment at the beginning of my writings could have hurt me to the point of where I might have given up. It takes a little while to grow thicker skin and gain confidence in your writing. It's not always the case that harsh, yet fair, criticism will help. And if being overly-harsh has a chance of ending someone's potential as a writer, then I will pull my punches, even if it means falling back into silence. I don't want to risk damaging a fellow author in such a way.
I agree that honesty is important, however, I can't take an absolute stance on it. There is a time and place for it. I don't think being totally honest in every action is the best solution... I'm aware that I could be wrong in taking this stance, but I think there is a right or a wrong position here. Sometimes it is better to hold your tongue when the truth will hurt someone too much. Sometimes, when an author is making a whole slough of mistakes, it's best to focus on the most glaring issues first and not all of them, so that your critiques don't drown them. Sometimes mentioning what did work really well in balance with the things that didn't is what the author needs to hear. And sometimes a harsh wake-up call of reality breaking their bubble of ignorance is required.
I do like to help other writers, but the way I do so is a gradual process, and I don't let them see the brunt of my honesty unless I have come to know them enough to judge whether or not they can handle such a comment. This is why I pointed out only a few minor or vague things when I come across a newer writer. Afterwards, I wait for their response. Depending on how they take the criticism, that determines how much further I will take my critiques.
What I'm doing isn't being the bad guy--at least not in my eyes--I am merely attempting to help those that could use gentle rhetoric to carry them onward in place of harsher rhetoric that they might otherwise receive. Helping people is never a 1-way system. There has to be a dialogue between the writer and reader (or editor as the case may be). And that dialogue is going to be different from person to person.
Behind it all, I think what is most important is to maintain a sense of respect between both yourself and the author you are interacting with, and the moment you toss a tag on someone's story, calling it terrible without their consent, is the moment you stop respecting them and their work.
Harsh critiquing can help, and it would be awesome to have more of it where it is needed. However, it can also cause great damage. So I'd, at the very least, recommend that you take care with your critiques, how you write them, and who you are writing them for.
2040752
The first part of any critique is respect. A critic without respect cannot be a teacher.
Wonderfully said, I can relate to your story and am going through my feelings of doubt to post a sequel to one of my first stories. I don't suppose you would have the time to check it out and give some constrive critsium on it if I do so for one of your stories?
I apologize in advance for having not read anything. I just had to stop at a certain point.
Also, it seemed to me that later parts of it contain spoilers to a fanfic of yours, so I had a second reason to stop.
What I especially can read out of your blog entry is an aversion/hate against specific fanfictions.
Especially clopfics. Which I think is not right.
And then against stories of yet not so experienced authors that need the practice.
Clopfics may not be everyone's taste, but there are indeed quite many people that like them as well and clopfics can be ignored if you personally don't like them.
They have every right do exist like any other (SFW) fanfic, as well grimdark and horror fics and also clopfics with more specific and unusual topics, like Foalcon.
You may not like those sorts of stories, but this is just your opinion. These stories are not bad stories because they have this genre or simply because you don't like them.
In fact, I read some clopfics (Foalcon as well) that are very well written and extremely good stories.
And for low-quality stories, that are maybe based on popular fanfic's, these stories are often the only way for authors to improve.
They may be not so good, but writing bad or not so good fanfictions first is the beginning for many authors that become excellent writer's later on through the experience they made with this first fic's.
Ignoring these fanfic's because they are not so good (to which the call you make here, to make people only read the really good fanfic's, will lead eventually) just robs those authors of any way to become better.
Those inexperienced authors are the next generation of talented and popular fan fic writer's and they deserve support by people that read their fanfic's and give feedback as well.
To be honest, your blog entry comes across like a personal crusade against clopfic's and bad fanfic's by unexperienced authors, in other words, against fanfic's that are a thorn in your eye.
Every fanfic has a right to exist, no matter which topic or genre it has and no matter how bad it is written.
And if you really want to get through to the really good fanfictions, this is not hard to achieve, even when you describe it as nearly impossible here.
I scrolled through all the fanfic's that were released every day for a while, and even though that there are dozens of new fanfic's at each new day, it didn't took so much time to look through all of them.
And groups help as well, since the really good fanfic's land in groups very fast anyway.
If you're really interested in finding good fanfic's you will find them.
I don't see a reason for what you suggest. In fact, I think it's rather damaging for the fanfic community. The fanfic community blooms very well without any sort of regulations, no changes need to be made here.
Keep that in mind, before starting a crusade that throws everything off of it's balance.
"Another opinion on this topic is: A staple of this community is how positive and supportive the people are in general."
-- SilentBelle
"...we encourage new talent more so than any other group I have come across thus far." -- Dr. Wolf
Hmm... is that so? I've met few Bronies or Pegasisters, so I can't judge that in real life. My loss, I'm sure, because something as warm, thoughtful, and deeply moral as MLP must attract a like-minded audience. But I'm afraid my experience here on FIMfiction doesn't jibe with Belle's.
My fan-writing (on an entirely different property) has been well-received over on Fanfiction.net, and I decided to try my hand over here. Now I'm certainly not presuming my story's the best thing ever. It's my first foray into Equestria, and the idea's not earth-shaking. But I still like it. It's brief, it has a song, it pokes fun at some deserving targets, and it has a moral I stand behind. No shipping, no "clop," and no character derailment. Not "Hurricane Fluttershy," but it's no "Spike at Your Service" either.
Within minutes of publishing my story, two thumbs-down appeared, much faster than anyone could have actually read the story. Since, three thumbs-ups and two positive reviews have slowly appeared, with useful feedback that I incorporated (thank you to Drake, and Ferret, who even said, "definitely hope to see more works from you.")
I feel those initial bad ratings discouraged anyone from even looking at it. My tale has just over two hundred views in a year's time. From those it earned a mere three thumbs-up and two reviews, both positive. So 2.5% percent of you bothered to rate, 1% to leave comments. One word of encouragement amid a sea of apathy. Humbling. Back to the drawing board, right?
But meanwhile, a Batman/MLP crossover (that mentions "gore" and "incomplete" in the description) has over two hundred views since yesterday? A massive story about a human self-insert-guy coming to Equestria and rogering Rainbow Dash was featured on EqD, and has thousands of views? Are you kidding me?!
(I mean... we all know Dashy plays for the other team.
)
Even scathing criticism would have been better'n being ignored. So at the risk of alienating everypony, is this "positive and supportive?" Perhaps instead of criticizing the quality of the writers here, Ms. Belle, Dr. Wolf, and Firebrand ought to critique the audience, and what they choose to support and encourage.
If I write any more FIMfics, you can look for 'em over here on FANfic.
"If I had felt that anything I created wouldn't have gotten any attention, I would have given up even before I started."
-- Dr. Wolf
2162174 Oh... I'm afraid that you might have missed half of the point. I do get annoyed at certain fics, it's true. As I said, it irks me. However, this is a feeling that I balance with just about everything that you mentioned. I do think that every story has a place once it's published, and I am aiming to encourage people to promote and talk about the stories that they think are good in some manner.
To counter this quote here:
I'll use a quote of my own from the blog:
I will also mention that I am not against clopfics, only that clopfics tend not to have the things that I particularly enjoy in a reading experience. I can appreciate an author using clop as an exercise to improve their descriptive prose, since the better descriptions will immerse the readers for the purposes of the story. I can also trust that there are some really interesting stories that use sex and the sensual evocations of the writing as a useful tool in telling their story. Sex does have a place in writing, just as any theme does. However, sex for the sake of arousing the reader does not interest me too much, as it far too often comes across as a contrived action without place in the story.
I can appreciate that the authors writing these stories enjoy writing them, that some are aiming to improve through them, and that some readers enjoy reading them quite a lot. I have nothing against them. I see their value, but they aren't what I regularly read. And I certainly do not bemoan their existence.
What I don't like seeing is an author who isn't trying to improve, or isn't having fun with/appreciating their own writing.
It's a personal opinion, yes. And as I said, these are two contrasting sides of the argument that I have had to struggle with in my own way.
I am glad that you will raise your voice when your feel that I am doing something that you think is wrong.
Thank you,
~SilentBelle
First off, I'll mention that it would be Mr.Belle
. Don't worry though, lots of people mix that up.
An interesting point you make here. I do fully support that readers should definitely make their voices known when they read a story they like, as well as when they read something they dislike. Not only that, but give a reason as to why when they do so. It's certainly something I try to do whenever I can, and I hope that many others follow suit.
However, not everyone is going to see it that way (and really that's fine). I've done a fair amount of thinking on the idea of reader feedback and what people choose to support and courage. Most authors crave that feedback and support. They want to know what they did that people didn't like,and what they did that people did like.
There are a lot of writers who struggle with your same situation. To use a quote from you:
Many people have said that down-voting should require some sort of written reasoning, but it would be foolish to say that a reader down-voting out of disinterest when coming across a particular story is a wrong action. While these down-votes can be quite damaging to an author's self-esteem, the down-votes are there to be used however the reader sees fit. Whether it's mild disinterest, or they absolutely abhor the story, that's fine. All the little thumbs-down mean is that X people disliked like it enough (for whatever reason) to down-vote it.
The comments are the important information (at least to me as a writer), and while I think it would be lovely to have more constructive comments all around, I think it would be awful to try and make commenting more of a mandatory thing.
I remember spending a great deal of time lurking on the internet, and sifting through man various stories and the like without so much as commenting on any of it. I was a lurker for most of the time. I always thought that my voice was rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. So why raise it?
It was only after I started creating my own stories that I really started to realize just how important a single respectful opinion can be. Commenting is something that people should do because they want to. And the strength of a single person's own voice is something that needs to be learned through experiencing its effects.
However, there are many who love to remain silent, and I know just how that feels, and why they would choose to do so. Because of that, I figure the best I can do is try to lead by example and hope that others see the merits in giving feedback to the stories they read.
Thanks for commenting. Maybe I should write a blog on this particular subject some time soon.
~SilentBelle
2168488
I think that every author here wants to either improve or just having some fun with writing silly little fic's.
But I'm glad that I was wrong.
The huge creative atmosphere with all sorts of fic's here means much to me and I did meet some members of the anti clopfic fraction in the last time and I guess this made me a little bit nervous.
Here I have a story that maybe convinces you otherwise:
http://explicit.ponyfictionarchive.net/viewstory.php?sid=324
It's one of these stories you mentioned, clop for the sake of getting aroused.
But it's so well written that it ties into the story excellently and given the circumstances, what these characters try out there is, while it seems unusual for them, quite in-character.
2163985 Oops. I forgot to tag your comment in this comment.
2168630
2041098
Oh look, you summarized everything on this page in a sentence. Don't point at the icebergs. Hemingway gets angry.
2211349
I was restating it for another. We all know what happens when icebergs aren't seen in time.
2211401
True, true.
I enjoy writing here on FiMFiction, I just wish ponies would not tear me down for just two or three small grammar mistakes. That's why these are my two favorite Doctor Wolf videos, they remind me that I can continue to write through the tears because I'm writing stories I love and enjoy!