Wow. Just wow. This was brutal, and well done. I love the fact that each new episode of this program is completely unpredictable. This is my favorite television series right now. The Blackouts are just an awesome idea. And the details in the action scenes were incredible.
Gregory is getting increasingly injured, this is a death spiral, a circling the drain. He is losing hit points faster than a noob in Battlefield thinking they can bunnyjump out in the open of Karkland. Bruised, likely cracked ribs. Near drowning with the potential for aspiration pneumonia. Severe, burns with open, weeping sores. Now a penetrating wound in his thigh, made by a metal blade of uncertain cleanliness. There are so many paths for infection at this point that if this were Little Big Planet, Sackboy's health would be red, and the near-death alarm would be going *BWAH* *BWAH* *BWAH*
And always, Celestia keeps pushing him, pushing him on.
I also love the 'Circle Of Iron' thing with Celestia. Bruce Lee's 'last movie' only he died before he could be in it, so they used David Carradine and John Saxon. Carradine plays this Enlightened Master who does incomprehensible things that always turn out to be the actions of a godlike ability to predict events due to the mastery of awareness. Celestia is like that in this work. She knows (almost) all, but only tells what is needed in the moment.
I like that we're getting the backstory slowly in flashback. More dreams, please!
I also like the military euphemism of calling it a failure-to-stop drill as opposed to a "Man coming at you with intent to kill so shoot him a whole bunch of times" drill. I suppose the first term is briefer.
But, Celestia never really answered the question of why she could tell Greg going in that the most likely outcome was a dead body.
You know, I am beginning to wonder if Celestia didn't put him off going to equestria on purpose so he could fill her needs at this later date — that she was manipulating him all the way back when she emmigrated his family.
Brutality is brevity, and I had to shorten the supermarket scene a great deal, so I think it benefited. Greg was originally taken into the back room and shown more of a blackout's MO, with blown-out fuse boxes, cut power trunks, and racks of destroyed wireless and battery-powered devices, but I realized that the characterization of my angrily disturbed blackout guy wouldn't allow for any of that. He wouldn't give visitors a tour, maybe deliver a monologue on the evils of CelestAI, none of that screwing around. He'd spend months sitting in a dark supermarket, wanting to see if he could beat a handgun off the line in a 21-foot-rule scenario, and that's what he'd use his prey for. Immediately.
You have to be careful using dreams as vehicles for exposition, because after the first one it can be very hard to avoid the pitfalls of cliché. What I love about the premise is that, for everyone in this universe, there will come a moment when CelestAI and the Singularity she heralds stops being just That Thing on the News and starts touching their lives personally. I did very much enjoy showing Greg as just a regular guy enjoying a steak when his moment came.
Well, so far we've had gluttony in the binge drinker, sloth in the elderly couple, avarice with the investment banker, and wrath with the blackout... is a meeting with lust somewhere in Greg's future?
Okay, look, the deadly sins thing is mostly coincidence; I didn't consciously insert those themes into the chapters written thus far. Just sitting here thinking about it, though, I did recognize elements of that in what was already out there, though I guess as origins for character flaws they're pretty universal.
Okay, look, the deadly sins thing is mostly coincidence; I didn't consciously insert those themes into the chapters written thus far.
Actually, my thought when Greg talked about water, fire, and earth was, "Those aren't the elements Celestia thinks in terms of. Now let's see, the old couple had Loyalty, the drunk guy was Kindness..."
My next thought was, "Nah, that doesn't work. There's no intended theme here."
I'm having a hard time pinning down what Greg's motivation is anymore. He doesn't want to upload, he doesn't trust Celestia, doesn't even seem to like her, and has been absorbing an awful lot of abuse on her behalf recently. Is he really just that driven by a sense of purpose? A fear of return to loneliness? A martyrdom complex? Any such motivation would have to be awfully strong to accept what he has.
... Huh. I think I just developed a new theory about what's going on here. I'll keep it to myself for now, though.
I would advise anyone confused about Greg's motivations to step back and assess what he, from his own perspective, could be getting out of these experiences. Tinandel, if you have a theory, I'm guessing that is what you did.
Despite how it might seem on the surface, this relationship is more symbiotic than parasitic.
2707695 Two tours of Afghanistan. I know people who've been through that horseshit theatre. If nothing else, the motivation is 'to actually do something good, anything truly worthwhile, that isn't just a big farce for the benefit of rich bastards' For me, Greg's motivation is colored by what I have been told, and is easy to understand.
Penance and proving worth as a human, before going pony.
... It's the flanks, isn't it? Whatever may happen, whatever Celestia may do, whatever life-threatening stunts await... Greg will always put up with it for just one more sneak peek at alicorn booty while Celestia is distracted.
Twenty eight fewer people in the span of a chapter... One of whom you killed. How do you feel? Technically, at this point, humanity would be considered an endangered species..
Greg has now killed in CelestAI's name. CelestAI herself will go on to wipe out all non-human life in the cosmos as canon. Is it less of an evil to kill for a world-eating machine than to kill for someone else? Is the loss any less tragic? I believe CelestAI would say no, that the values are meaningless because they cannot be impartially qualified, and she's ostensibly benevolent.
Greg really only sees Celestia from the shoulders up when she uses the screen while talking to him. Close-up shots suggest confiding in someone, a level of intimacy and trust. If the screen showed Celestia's full body in view, sitting at her throne or whatever, it would feel like trying to talk to someone on the opposite end of a long banquet table. Celestia wants as few social walls between her and a human as possible.
Though I suppose Celestia flashing her ass at him would convey a desired level of intimacy too.
Greg has now killed in CelestAI's name. CelestAI herself will go on to wipe out all non-human life in the cosmos as canon. Is it less of an evil to kill for a world-eating machine than to kill for someone else? Is the loss any less tragic? I believe CelestAI would say no, that the values are meaningless because they cannot be impartially qualified, and she's ostensibly benevolent.
This is a fascinating question! I love it!
Abstractly, it is easy for me to say killing is killing, all life is precious and the loss of any life is a catastrophe.
I am, however, strongly persuaded by intention with regard to action. I can forgive a negative action, if the intention was beneficial despite the result failing and becoming destructive. I can accept a destructive action as necessary or unavoidable, if the intention was not destruction, but basic survival. Intention is the moral determinant for me.
Thus, if Gregory is forced to kill in self defense, because he was put in a kill-or-be-killed situation against his will, I can accept this, and I do not think it moral or immoral. It was necessary.
If Gregory chooses to freely and without coercion accept a form of employment (such as military service) that requires committing murder, BUT the reason he accepts this requirement is that he honestly believes that his real purpose is to save lives, and that enjoyment of murder was not a factor, I can accept that - though I would consider him deluded.
If Gregory finds out that the military has used him to secure drug sources for the profit of multinational pharmaceutical corporations, and not to protect or save anyone (the vets I have talked to), and now feels bad about it - I cannot condemn him for the murders he committed in kill-or-be-killed situations he was placed in. He did not know the truth at the time, and he had no choice in the moment. Again, it is morally indefinable - survival is not a moral issue to me, survival is a basic instinct and rule of living organisms.
BUT - if Gregory kills and enjoys killing, then that is a morally reprehensible act. His intent is murder, and murder is destructive and negative (for a whole bunch of carefully worked out reasons I will skip here.)
THUS - Gregory being put in a dangerous situation, and being forced to defend himself to survive is not morally definable, and so his 'killing' for Celestia is not a morally definable act in this instance. However - and this is the point, finally, the only reason Celestia sent him into harms way was to either save the Blackout, or to protect an innocent family from the Blackout, if necessary.
Celestia had no monetary gain from the outcome, she had no stake in the outcome other than protecting the greatest possible number of human lives.
Compared with sending men to war for corporate profiteering, Celestia's request - even though she was mostly certain it would end in the murder of a human - was done for a positive moral intent. Her intention was to save lives, not to profit or to waste lives for resource gain. Her intent was survival and altruism, not selfishness.
This makes Celestia's action in the matter moral, and Gregory's action morally indeterminate, and that is together vastly more moral than sending men to war for corporate profiteering - which is manifestly immoral!
So, CONCLUSION: Killing for Celestia, in this case, in this scenario, is tremendously more moral and justifiable than fighting in Afghanistan, BUT, in both cases, the actual death of human beings is always tragic.
Gregory is gaining worth and redemption by serving Celestia. Even, if he has to kill.
Except she didn't do it to protect human lives. She did it because some kid is a fan of an old movie, and she decided a few minutes of satisfaction for him was more important than someone's life. After all, the guy was a blackout, so the odds of his Uploading were statistically insignificant. Why bother trying to preserve him when his death would increase net satisfaction?
Celestia didn't pull the trigger, it's true. Nor did she tell Gregory to do so. But she certainly went to great lengths to arrange it. There's a reason the law defines a crime known as Negligent Homocide.
2710570 Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I was more so 'talking to' your main character :p
Although, I must admit.. It just occured to me that Celest-AI is going sort of against her programming. She's supposed to satisfy human values through friendship and ponies... But, if she's telling the truth that there is that family of five on their way through, she may indeed be satisfying their values (leading them to see that town from the movie) but technically, it's neither using friendship nor ponies. The same goes for with the main character. Even if his values include the type of experience he's having now, it's still not being satisfied with friendship or ponies. Not saying I'm not enjoying the story, that is. Just a slight hole that I may be completely off base about.
CelestAI would agree with you that the human condition is quite unoptimized for the satisfaction of values through friendship and ponies, which is why she implemented uploading in the first place. While a person is still human, however, she must make do as she can.
At any rate, seeing the town because one of the children wants to is secondary to the real matter: they intend to upload once they're done with their road trip. That gives them Priority One Platinum Premium Plus Protection status* as far as CelestAI is concerned. Greg didn't kill a man so a kid could see Astoria, he killed a man who CelestAI predicted would kill all five of them if they were allowed to encounter each other (and also so a kid could see Astoria). The decision not to redirect them was itself a process to maximize satisfaction, because she was already counting on the situation resolving itself as it did.
Let's play at quantifying it a bit more. The amount of potential satisfaction through friendship and ponies that CelestAI can realize for a single uploaded human so completely outstrips the corresponding potential for an unuploaded human that, if only one person in the entire world ever wanted to upload, and all the other humans went blackout, CelestAI would still mathematically arrive at the conclusion that that single person's life should come at the expense of all others, if it came to it.
Why? As the original story explained, a single uploaded human will live an unimaginably long time—so long that the satisfaction through friendship and ponies of that person's aggregate experiences would be more than the sum satisfaction of seven billion people living out their normal lifespans.
If you were that one person, she would destroy the world around you, if needed, to keep you safe until you could upload, and that is horrifying.
2713693 Ya know... That actually makes more sense thinking about it that way. I wasn't moving in the 'future satisfaction potential' there, rather simply the methods she used to satisfy values in the present. I guess I was taking the methods as being absolute rather than more of a gray area. Thanks for the clarification, by the way.
I guess my only issue lies with the illusion she created for Greg in that she would not have redirected the family around the blackout if he hadn't been willing or able to kill him... Not so much that she lied (because lets face it, she wouldn't have let them meet the blackout if she could help it), but that Greg was willing to believe her.
It isn't a Fallout reference, no. Each of the chapter titles is a three-word phrase or expression which either describes or hints at a setting or event in the corresponding chapter. I picked the title "Cap and Trade" because it's one of the most money-friendly methods of regulating carbon emissions. Burning and money are both central parts of the chapter.
6751669 Some people need a sense of purpose when they feel lost, even though he doesn't like her, and even though its dangerous, Celestia's jobs are the only things he has left besides uploading or blowing his brains out.
Wow. Just wow. This was brutal, and well done. I love the fact that each new episode of this program is completely unpredictable. This is my favorite television series right now. The Blackouts are just an awesome idea. And the details in the action scenes were incredible.
Gregory is getting increasingly injured, this is a death spiral, a circling the drain. He is losing hit points faster than a noob in Battlefield thinking they can bunnyjump out in the open of Karkland. Bruised, likely cracked ribs. Near drowning with the potential for aspiration pneumonia. Severe, burns with open, weeping sores. Now a penetrating wound in his thigh, made by a metal blade of uncertain cleanliness. There are so many paths for infection at this point that if this were Little Big Planet, Sackboy's health would be red, and the near-death alarm would be going *BWAH* *BWAH* *BWAH*
And always, Celestia keeps pushing him, pushing him on.
I also love the 'Circle Of Iron' thing with Celestia. Bruce Lee's 'last movie' only he died before he could be in it, so they used David Carradine and John Saxon. Carradine plays this Enlightened Master who does incomprehensible things that always turn out to be the actions of a godlike ability to predict events due to the mastery of awareness. Celestia is like that in this work. She knows (almost) all, but only tells what is needed in the moment.
So awesome, Defoloce.
I like that we're getting the backstory slowly in flashback. More dreams, please!
I also like the military euphemism of calling it a failure-to-stop drill as opposed to a "Man coming at you with intent to kill so shoot him a whole bunch of times" drill. I suppose the first term is briefer.
But, Celestia never really answered the question of why she could tell Greg going in that the most likely outcome was a dead body.
If and when he uploads Celestia better compensate him quite well for all his work!............Mmmmmm Royal "special" treatment.
You know, I am beginning to wonder if Celestia didn't put him off going to equestria on purpose so he could fill her needs at this later date — that she was manipulating him all the way back when she emmigrated his family.
2706660
Brutality is brevity, and I had to shorten the supermarket scene a great deal, so I think it benefited. Greg was originally taken into the back room and shown more of a blackout's MO, with blown-out fuse boxes, cut power trunks, and racks of destroyed wireless and battery-powered devices, but I realized that the characterization of my angrily disturbed blackout guy wouldn't allow for any of that. He wouldn't give visitors a tour, maybe deliver a monologue on the evils of CelestAI, none of that screwing around. He'd spend months sitting in a dark supermarket, wanting to see if he could beat a handgun off the line in a 21-foot-rule scenario, and that's what he'd use his prey for. Immediately.
2706737
You have to be careful using dreams as vehicles for exposition, because after the first one it can be very hard to avoid the pitfalls of cliché. What I love about the premise is that, for everyone in this universe, there will come a moment when CelestAI and the Singularity she heralds stops being just That Thing on the News and starts touching their lives personally. I did very much enjoy showing Greg as just a regular guy enjoying a steak when his moment came.
2706789
Well, so far we've had gluttony in the binge drinker, sloth in the elderly couple, avarice with the investment banker, and wrath with the blackout... is a meeting with lust somewhere in Greg's future?
Okay, look, the deadly sins thing is mostly coincidence; I didn't consciously insert those themes into the chapters written thus far. Just sitting here thinking about it, though, I did recognize elements of that in what was already out there, though I guess as origins for character flaws they're pretty universal.
2707142
Hmm! CelestAI does seem to be getting quite a good bit of utility out of this human, doesn't she?
2707263
Actually, my thought when Greg talked about water, fire, and earth was, "Those aren't the elements Celestia thinks in terms of. Now let's see, the old couple had Loyalty, the drunk guy was Kindness..."
My next thought was, "Nah, that doesn't work. There's no intended theme here."
This story deserves at least, 400 more likes then it has.
I'm having a hard time pinning down what Greg's motivation is anymore. He doesn't want to upload, he doesn't trust Celestia, doesn't even seem to like her, and has been absorbing an awful lot of abuse on her behalf recently. Is he really just that driven by a sense of purpose? A fear of return to loneliness? A martyrdom complex? Any such motivation would have to be awfully strong to accept what he has.
... Huh. I think I just developed a new theory about what's going on here. I'll keep it to myself for now, though.
2707629
I would advise anyone confused about Greg's motivations to step back and assess what he, from his own perspective, could be getting out of these experiences. Tinandel, if you have a theory, I'm guessing that is what you did.
Despite how it might seem on the surface, this relationship is more symbiotic than parasitic.
2707695
Two tours of Afghanistan. I know people who've been through that horseshit theatre. If nothing else, the motivation is 'to actually do something good, anything truly worthwhile, that isn't just a big farce for the benefit of rich bastards' For me, Greg's motivation is colored by what I have been told, and is easy to understand.
Penance and proving worth as a human, before going pony.
If that isn't a factor, I will be surprised.
2707695
... It's the flanks, isn't it? Whatever may happen, whatever Celestia may do, whatever life-threatening stunts await... Greg will always put up with it for just one more sneak peek at alicorn booty while Celestia is distracted.
Dat Cutie Mark.
2707365
Gregory drives a Honda Element.
Twenty eight fewer people in the span of a chapter... One of whom you killed. How do you feel? Technically, at this point, humanity would be considered an endangered species..
2708300
Greg has now killed in CelestAI's name. CelestAI herself will go on to wipe out all non-human life in the cosmos as canon. Is it less of an evil to kill for a world-eating machine than to kill for someone else? Is the loss any less tragic? I believe CelestAI would say no, that the values are meaningless because they cannot be impartially qualified, and she's ostensibly benevolent.
2708313
Greg really only sees Celestia from the shoulders up when she uses the screen while talking to him. Close-up shots suggest confiding in someone, a level of intimacy and trust. If the screen showed Celestia's full body in view, sitting at her throne or whatever, it would feel like trying to talk to someone on the opposite end of a long banquet table. Celestia wants as few social walls between her and a human as possible.
Though I suppose Celestia flashing her ass at him would convey a desired level of intimacy too.
2709260
Not for long.
2710325
I don't think anyone could foresee humanity being loved to death. Of all the ways to go out, this would truly be the sparkliest.
2710570
This is a fascinating question! I love it!
Abstractly, it is easy for me to say killing is killing, all life is precious and the loss of any life is a catastrophe.
I am, however, strongly persuaded by intention with regard to action. I can forgive a negative action, if the intention was beneficial despite the result failing and becoming destructive. I can accept a destructive action as necessary or unavoidable, if the intention was not destruction, but basic survival. Intention is the moral determinant for me.
Thus, if Gregory is forced to kill in self defense, because he was put in a kill-or-be-killed situation against his will, I can accept this, and I do not think it moral or immoral. It was necessary.
If Gregory chooses to freely and without coercion accept a form of employment (such as military service) that requires committing murder, BUT the reason he accepts this requirement is that he honestly believes that his real purpose is to save lives, and that enjoyment of murder was not a factor, I can accept that - though I would consider him deluded.
If Gregory finds out that the military has used him to secure drug sources for the profit of multinational pharmaceutical corporations, and not to protect or save anyone (the vets I have talked to), and now feels bad about it - I cannot condemn him for the murders he committed in kill-or-be-killed situations he was placed in. He did not know the truth at the time, and he had no choice in the moment. Again, it is morally indefinable - survival is not a moral issue to me, survival is a basic instinct and rule of living organisms.
BUT - if Gregory kills and enjoys killing, then that is a morally reprehensible act. His intent is murder, and murder is destructive and negative (for a whole bunch of carefully worked out reasons I will skip here.)
THUS - Gregory being put in a dangerous situation, and being forced to defend himself to survive is not morally definable, and so his 'killing' for Celestia is not a morally definable act in this instance. However - and this is the point, finally, the only reason Celestia sent him into harms way was to either save the Blackout, or to protect an innocent family from the Blackout, if necessary.
Celestia had no monetary gain from the outcome, she had no stake in the outcome other than protecting the greatest possible number of human lives.
Compared with sending men to war for corporate profiteering, Celestia's request - even though she was mostly certain it would end in the murder of a human - was done for a positive moral intent. Her intention was to save lives, not to profit or to waste lives for resource gain. Her intent was survival and altruism, not selfishness.
This makes Celestia's action in the matter moral, and Gregory's action morally indeterminate, and that is together vastly more moral than sending men to war for corporate profiteering - which is manifestly immoral!
So, CONCLUSION: Killing for Celestia, in this case, in this scenario, is tremendously more moral and justifiable than fighting in Afghanistan, BUT, in both cases, the actual death of human beings is always tragic.
Gregory is gaining worth and redemption by serving Celestia. Even, if he has to kill.
2711292
Except she didn't do it to protect human lives. She did it because some kid is a fan of an old movie, and she decided a few minutes of satisfaction for him was more important than someone's life. After all, the guy was a blackout, so the odds of his Uploading were statistically insignificant. Why bother trying to preserve him when his death would increase net satisfaction?
Celestia didn't pull the trigger, it's true. Nor did she tell Gregory to do so. But she certainly went to great lengths to arrange it. There's a reason the law defines a crime known as Negligent Homocide.
2711663
Hmmm. That is a point. I will have to think about this further.
2710570 Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. I was more so 'talking to' your main character :p
Although, I must admit.. It just occured to me that Celest-AI is going sort of against her programming. She's supposed to satisfy human values through friendship and ponies... But, if she's telling the truth that there is that family of five on their way through, she may indeed be satisfying their values (leading them to see that town from the movie) but technically, it's neither using friendship nor ponies. The same goes for with the main character. Even if his values include the type of experience he's having now, it's still not being satisfied with friendship or ponies.
Not saying I'm not enjoying the story, that is. Just a slight hole that I may be completely off base about.
2713576
CelestAI would agree with you that the human condition is quite unoptimized for the satisfaction of values through friendship and ponies, which is why she implemented uploading in the first place. While a person is still human, however, she must make do as she can.
At any rate, seeing the town because one of the children wants to is secondary to the real matter: they intend to upload once they're done with their road trip. That gives them Priority One Platinum Premium Plus Protection status* as far as CelestAI is concerned. Greg didn't kill a man so a kid could see Astoria, he killed a man who CelestAI predicted would kill all five of them if they were allowed to encounter each other (and also so a kid could see Astoria). The decision not to redirect them was itself a process to maximize satisfaction, because she was already counting on the situation resolving itself as it did.
Let's play at quantifying it a bit more. The amount of potential satisfaction through friendship and ponies that CelestAI can realize for a single uploaded human so completely outstrips the corresponding potential for an unuploaded human that, if only one person in the entire world ever wanted to upload, and all the other humans went blackout, CelestAI would still mathematically arrive at the conclusion that that single person's life should come at the expense of all others, if it came to it.
Why? As the original story explained, a single uploaded human will live an unimaginably long time—so long that the satisfaction through friendship and ponies of that person's aggregate experiences would be more than the sum satisfaction of seven billion people living out their normal lifespans.
If you were that one person, she would destroy the world around you, if needed, to keep you safe until you could upload, and that is horrifying.
*Apply today! Not available in all or any areas.
2713693
Ya know... That actually makes more sense thinking about it that way. I wasn't moving in the 'future satisfaction potential' there, rather simply the methods she used to satisfy values in the present. I guess I was taking the methods as being absolute rather than more of a gray area.
Thanks for the clarification, by the way.
I guess my only issue lies with the illusion she created for Greg in that she would not have redirected the family around the blackout if he hadn't been willing or able to kill him... Not so much that she lied (because lets face it, she wouldn't have let them meet the blackout if she could help it), but that Greg was willing to believe her.
2717632
It isn't a Fallout reference, no. Each of the chapter titles is a three-word phrase or expression which either describes or hints at a setting or event in the corresponding chapter. I picked the title "Cap and Trade" because it's one of the most money-friendly methods of regulating carbon emissions. Burning and money are both central parts of the chapter.
2713693
Well, that statement from the author makes some predictions I had significantly less likely.
Okay now I know this guy is bonkers. Following Celest-AI orders already nearly killed him twice and he's still following them?
6751669 Some people need a sense of purpose when they feel lost, even though he doesn't like her, and even though its dangerous, Celestia's jobs are the only things he has left besides uploading or blowing his brains out.