Hmm... this certainly is a different story.  Very few i've seen, have covered interactions from an old relationship that's ended badly.  Still, it didn't end as bad as my mind had prepared for.

Have a fave and a thumb, you've earned them.

This... Now this is sad.

really strong dialogue and a fantastic story for those who've read too many twilestia ships

Agreed. Most stories focus on the start of the relationship, rather then way down the line.

A moustache to you good sir!

Everyone brings up the age thing. To be honest, I don't really get it. Apparently Celestia's body never ages, and maturity of the mental sort is acquired early on (just honed as time progresses). Surely an "of age" Twilight should be allowed to court/be courted by Celestia. Maybe it's just me, I have gone through life trusting everyone and accepting every ... Most things.

Story: I see the sad tag, and I respect it. I wish there was a "Bittersweet" tag, or something. Well done.

I loved it, and at the same time disliked it. (tho I faved it fo sho) Mainly because it pokes my feels to see a Twilestia ship end badly. I sorta wanted Celestia to ask Twilight to come back, or at least want to ask her to come back. A part of me hopes that if Twilight goes through with dying then Celestia goes into a deep bout of depression or something. After all, she drove Twilight away.  

>>20823962082396  Thanks!  I would be okay with a "bittersweet" tag for this story, but honestly I think I would prefer a drama tag.  For stories whose main goal is dramatic intensity, intensity of emotion, etc., without those emotions necessarily being about making the reader feel sad.  For my money it could replace Tragedy, since Tragedy is about how a story progresses/ends, and not a descriptor of tone like comedy/sad or a description of what type of events a story contains, like romance or adventure.  And who wants to give away their ending in a tag (which I sorta feel like bittersweet would do too)?

As far as the age thing goes--personally it's not the age difference that concerns me.  As... some fic or other once put it, "What, is Celestia supposed to find someone her own age to be with?"  Although a great difference in experience and background can make romance across generations hard.  Celestia probably knows jokes that stopped making sense before anyone alive was conceived.

But what I actually think is problematic is the transition of the relationship from 7-year-old mentee / adult mentor to an equal romantic relationship.  Celestia and Twi probably played kiddie games and suchlike.  That sort of thing could really foul up Celestia's ability to see Twilight as an adult, even if she wanted to.  But Celestia also has a lot of experience seeing a pony's whole life pass, so... *shrugs*  It's doable for sure, but I mean, imagine dating someone you knew back when they were five and you were fifteen, and then multiply that awkwardness by a bunch.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that while ships might be cute for the reasons that they work, they're interesting for the reasons they shouldn't work, but do anyway.

>>20824982082498

God I like you already. You argue so many good points for that ship. I'll admit, Twilestia is a special ship for me in the fact that it's using the original meaning of "ship". Normally people assume it to be a wholly romantic thing (it almost is). I use it to refer to an 'exploration of a relationship between two characters'. Celestia as Twilight's lover is, I'll admit, OTP for me. However, those teary-eyed exchanges between an old/immortal Twilight... They absolutely kill me inside. The mentor/student relationship they have is just too sacred. Nine times out of ten, that's the number one barrier between a romantic relationship between them. Getting past that is how I judge the Twilestia stories mostly.

This turned into me ranting about my opinion. I started typing with the intent to agree with you. It would appear I'm just too human to do that!

Celestia and Twi probably played kiddie games and suchlike.  That sort of thing could really foul up Celestia's ability to see Twilight as an adult, even if she wanted to.

Agreed. That's why I actually prefer 'Momlestia' where she's her mother figure. (not necessarily her mother, but you get the idea, ya? Even though that is still acceptable.)

Of course, I'm of the opinion that while ships might be cute for the reasons that they work, they're interesting for the reasons they shouldn't work, but do anyway.

See the first line in this post. I like you. I can never explain what I think, simply because my brain doesn't think in words. But THAT right there is the line of reasoning I've been looking for for a long time.

Dramatic, a little depressin to be honest. But the endin, that's jus sweet. This is my favorite kind of ship, no matter who they are, the ones that can show adversity, understanding, a resolve to make things right. I find myself wanting to know what happened in greater detail. And maybe I missed it, but why spike would be pissed at twi. This short piece of writin is what makes me love this site and all the brony community. Keep on writin Hoss, you do it well

This is quiet great, this story has enough to make sense of the main themes, but some stuff are still open ended and vague enough for you to continue writing in this "universe" if you decide so, and i hope you do one day.

>>20824982082498 this story works as a Tragedy. It explores Twilight and Celestia's flaws bringing them apart in a linear way by implication, not by actual description in story. But a character (or characters) who are otherwise happy having the things they loved destroyed by a singular flaw in their personality (Twilight's sensitivity, Celestia's self-sacrificing) is tragedy by definition.

>>20824982082498 I think that the playing childhood games thing together just makes their relationship stronger, not weaker. They both know each other at a very intuitive level. As for equal footing, a lot of stories forget Twilight's contributions to Equestria include things Celestia couldn't do for her own subjects. She saved the Crystal Empire where Celestia saw it vanish for a thousand years, she redeemed Luna where Celestia trapped her on the moon and beat Discord in a day where it took Celestia years (admittedly with some help from her mentor, but still). I think Celestia sees herself as inferior to Twilight in character if not in experience, something that certain stories on this site ( Colloquium, Composure and Eternal in particular) touch on quite nicely. Not only that, but Twilight is a submissive pony by default, so I imagine most relationships with her would seem unequal between her and her partner.  

The story's good but the final lines are absolutely fantastic!

“So that's it, huh?  A chance to talk to Spike and a few words of wisdom from my old teacher, and I'm supposed to face eternity?”

“Eternity?  No.  But how about tomorrow?”

It was a pleasure pre-reading this for you, and even better to see it uploaded!

Very nice you have my fav and upvote

Brilliantly executed treatment of the other side of the Twilestia ship: how do you keep a relationship fresh and interesting for eternity? Answer is, you might not be able to. Applies to TwiLuna by extension as well. The dialogue and characterizations were perfect; bonus points for not delving into unnecessary backstory. Gold star and thumbs up for you! And a well-deserved spot in the Featured box as well, I see.

Twilight smiled too, sad amusement written on her face.  “So that's it, huh?  A chance to talk to Spike and a few words of wisdom from my old teacher, and I'm supposed to face eternity?”

“Eternity?  No.  But how about tomorrow?”

IMHO, that exchange, right at the end of this remarkably-written tale, pretty much sums up the whole argument and the pain that Twilight Sparkle was feeling.  Sometimes, it is enough to just have a reason to face each successive day.

I also suspect that the reason Twilight was so biting at first was that she hoped that she might provoke Celestia into killing her.

This is an excellent story. Yeah, there are grammar and wording oddities, but the idea is done well enough that they don't matter one wit. As a Twilestia fan, this hits me harder than I would have liked. You never want to see the ride end.

There aren't enough bittersweet stories on here.

This needs to shoot to the top ASAP.

>>20836812083681  I would offer this:  Is all you want out of a relationship that it be fresh and interesting?  If so, you may just want to consider getting a new pet.

Actual love, not merely romantic infatuation, is far deeper and more powerfully enduring than such surface fascinations.

Commence read.

This was interesting.

Nicely done dialogue and how they interacted with each other.

Fitting for the Sad tag.

Ive read so many sad stories today

Wow, thanks Fedora, right in the heart.

What a beautiful story. Rarely do you see anything remotely Twilestia without all the unrealistic, fluffly shipping elements. This story told it like it is, and boy, was it sad.

>>20836862083686

Killing her, forcibly removing her immortality, banishing her to the moon... anything to end it.

>>20838482083848

True. But I think one of the points of this story is that there are complications to immortal romance that even love will have trouble overcoming. What once felt comfortable and safe may start to feel routine, and what's worse, it may be too comfortable, too safe. The story shows us that Twilight withdrew from the world and turned entirely to Celestia, and that Celestia had to end it because of that. Celestia says "the world would be a brighter, better place with this mare in it", and Twilight had ceased to be in the world at all. Love may endure but in Twilight's case it became a crutch, a reason not to go on with the real business of living.

Of course, my preference would have been to have Twilight jump ship for Luna, but that's another story.

I don't buy this. It features a love of two characters that got to the point Celestia seriously entertained a forever relationship - she made Twilight immortal - then spurns her for another lover. Yeah no. Relationships can and do fall apart... But it seems I managed to last the test of time for a while, all to fall apart a moment later (in the eyes of the immortal).

It as a piece succeeds in evoking emotion after a first read for which the author gets kudos, but the step after, taking a closer eye on it it just comes across as contrived and sad just for the point of being sad.

4/10 thumbs down.

Nice. I wouldn't say it's sad really, more it starts angry, goes through hopeless and ends up pretty optimistic. And nice to see what happens when Ships Go Wrong. It's very definitely an ex-lover's tiff rather'n sad. The dialoge was all pretty finely done, too.

G'job!

>>20842482084248  Angry!  That's the tag we're missing.  Get to it, knighty.  (Oh God, can you imagine the trollfics?)

But no, I do wish there was a better fit, tag-wise.  Although some people have made a pretty strong case for calling it "sad" by... saying how sad it made them.  So I suppose there's that.

>>20841642084164  Thanks, Clopple.  I'm totally going to get a poster made that says "What a beautiful story . . . this told it like it is."  After I frame the screencap of me in the top featured slot.  

Yeah I'm a little excited.   It's probably a good thing I do not have picture-framing technology at hand.

>>20841772084177  Oh my god someone just did analysis on a story I wrote.  And supported their point with a quote.

Someone cared enough about what I was saying to argue their personal interpretation, and used my words to support that interpretation.

You guys, we would need a smiling-with-giant-tears-in-the-desuest-of-eyes emoticon to accurately capture my expression right now.  Seriously, that may have made my week.  And it's been a pretty solid week so far.

(Yeah, I'm an English major, can you tell?)

Thanks so much not just for those but for all the kind remarks.  And the critical ones too.  I'm just proud to have written something that seems to have resonated with so many different people.

>>20838482083848

And I would offer this. If a relationship becomes boring or stale, no matter the love present, it is tenuous at best. To become stagnant is one of the worst things that can happen.

This... is a good story.

It is good, but I feel too unsettled to say I enjoyed reading it.

I like characters to face hardships to earn their happy endings. I dislike non-endings, where nothing changes. Reading through 200 000 words just to reach the end of a story, just to see the characters suffer at the end, and to see that the whole journey was pointless feels like a huge giant "fuck you" for the reader - thankfully, stories like that are fairly rare.

And this...

I can't tell what kind of ending this is, exactly, but seeing something like love, just fall apart and sputter out... it's a little too close for comfort.

This is a good story, but I wish I hadn't read it.

The only question for the rumours is- before or after the season three premiere?  because the rumours were starting by the end of the first episode.

I know this is meant to be a one-shot, but I wouldn't mind seeing a followup.

As a general rule of thumb, I don't like happy endings. They just don't have the same lasting effect, for me at least. No emotion seems to stick with you if "everything is going to be alright", and it lowers the quality of the story. I don't see this piece as an exception.

That being said, I still highly enjoyed the story. I don't make a habit out of reading stories where there is blatant animosity between Twilight and Celestia, but I'm glad I picked this up.

Thanks for the read.

>>20843502084350  Well, since you ask, the original googledoc of this story has its first editorial note dated August 31st (no, I did not write this story any faster than any other story I've written for this site*).  Season premiere was in... geez, November?  So, I guess I was right and it was considerably before people were talking about it.

*I did, however, finish the story in like a week once I picked it back up.  It was a thing where I'd forgotten about it and one night before going to sleep I suddenly saw how the whole rest of it played out in my head and had a bunch of enthusiasm to actually write it down.

>>20842882084288

Glad I could make your week! I feel the same way whenever someone posts more than "d'aaawww" on my stories too.  You've done a beautiful job with this little slice of (broken) Twilestia, and you deserve every kudo you've received. It's a really engaging, heartrending piece that could have been tragic or pointlessly shippy but instead manages to end on the most hopeful note possible given the circumstances. There's just so much depth and subtlety and half-unspoken backstory woven in here that I could continue that analysis for pages - but I won't, because I need to get back to my own stories.  You've got a follower, and now I've got "Lost Friends" in my Read Later list.

Aw man, this is great!!

It's nice to read a sort of refreshingly realistic type fic... and ironically you nailed that very well in a story about two immortal pony princesses. So... that.

Actually though, I found the passive-aggression to be very well done, and very believable. The bitterness of a an ex-lover after a big falling out, too. I quite enjoyed the novel take on Twilestia, and immortal Twilight, as well. Great dialogue throughout the whole thing, and very well handled all the way through, as well, with all the stuff they were dealing with. Nice little subtleties and incites for the characters.

I would say you could get away with the romance tag for this... basically the whole fic is them discussing their past relationship, and also touching on Celestia's new one (bitterness and passive-aggression and love lost are integral pillars of the romance genre, after all!). In fact, I'd say the sad tag is a bit deceptive without the romance one there (Makes it seem like another tired-out old fic about the woes of being immortal--instead of this really fresh take on a failed romance between the two when faced with eternity.)

>>20841772084177  But what we see here with Twilight is less love than borderline obsession.  People who love each other deeply do not feel a compulsive need to stand next to each other at every moment.  They can actually have LIVES that do not utterly revolve around each other perpetually.

>>20843682084368  *walks in and infects all the ponies with hoof-and-mouth disease and they die slowly and horribly*  Better now?  What?  It's a bad ending!  Nopony is happy!  It's just what you wanted...

So many likes. So few comments... I think everyone is too amazed to try to write down a comment, because it won't capture accurately what they're feeling... At least, that's what I think...

>>> For Shining and Cadence's wedding anniversary.”   “Ah, yes. 350 years, isn't it?”>>>  How interesting, a relationship that has withstood the test of time.  I cannot help but feel that the falling out between Twilight and Celestia has more to do with their personal problems than any deeper concepts.  Indeed, that seems borne out as I read.  Neither seems as rational or mature-minded as I would expect.  Twilight least of all.  Those cheap shots were what I would anticipate from a spoiled teenager, and which I would have crushed beneath my superior intellect (like I do with all teenagers' smarmy little comments.  Now THAT is something I never get tired of doing! )

>>>“There are those who'd say that tradition for tradition's sake is no more a virtue than meaningless change.”  >>>  Very true, Twilight.  But then, what do you offer in the form of meaningful change?  You have presented an unfinished concept, my dear.  An incomplete conjecture.  I am not impressed by half-thoughts.

>>>Do you remember what you told me?  It was the same old advice actually, now that I think of it, but I took it—I trusted you, and I made new friends, and I lost them too—and it was worse.  I... couldn't... stand going through that again.  So I didn't want to see anyone.  Didn't want to... to care about anyone else.  Can you blame me?  >>>

And there it is, the inability to deal with loss.  Seriously, I came to grips with death by the age of 8.  I see it as a supreme aggravation to be defeated like any other enemy.  It's a waste of an intelligent mind which must be replaced and taught the same things all over again.  Really, a much longer life with an undamaged mind would lead to far quicker advancement.  Twilight needs to get over both death and herself.  

>>>But, you know something Princess?  If you stick around long enough, you see all the arguments, all the ideas, all the thoughts that anyone ever thinks and puts to paper.  You read the same things you read fifty years, a hundred years ago.  I know it all.  I know it and I'm sick of it, and I'm sick of being sick of it, and I—”>>>  Really Twilight?  You honestly think you know everything?  My dear, would you like me to show you the Library of Congress?  It would take nearly a thousand years of constant reading to get through it all.  And that's assuming you retain 100% of everything you read.  Ah!  And then, there some the practical applications of all those mixed disciplines!    And then, how can you be sure that everything has been thought of?  We have been delving deeply into our universe for hundreds of years, and still thousands of papers of novel information are published EVERY YEAR!!  *shakes his head*  Twilight, Twilight, you are a sorely disappointing individual.  With such a limited scope of mind and that aggravatingly obsessive worship, it's no wonder Celestia sent you away.  You haven't grown up at all.

*And in the end*  Ah, finally, Twilight has at last opened herself to the possibility that all her problems are the result of her own mind, still trapped in the mortal way of thinking.  (thankfully, I surpassed that when I was 10.  I'm now into the multidimensional-multiple transcendent combinational entity state-of-mind.  All of me are, as a matter of fact!)  

... I want to say something more constructive then very nice... and I hope Celestia is NOT sleeping with Star Swirl in that sense.

>>20843022084302  And what, then, are the qualifications that determine when something is boring and stale?  Answer:  ONE'S OWN STATE OF MIND.  It's a personal choice to become bored with something.  Either that or a pathophysiologically low serotonin level (classic clinical depression symptom:  patient has become bored with things that used to bring pleasure).  Alcoholism and many drugs and even some diseases (metabolic syndrome, hyper/hypothyroidism, certain cancers) besides psychiatric etiology can bring about depressive perceptive shifts as well.

Again, the problems lie WITHIN, a flaw in reasoning, an emotional instability.  It has nothing to do with the facts and theories of reality and existence.  All thought; all emotion is, after all, all in your head.  It can be whatever you wish it be once you fully comprehend and indoctrinate this absolute truth into how your mind functions via the transitions and connections between the biological basis and the more abstract portions of the consciousness.  In simpler terms:  if one learns to seize absolute control of the mind and identify illogical internal perceptive shifts, one finds reality frequently contrasts very sharply to former interpretations painted in a mind trapped in disarray.  

That next-to-last line is just the right blend of sad and sweet, the thump of the tail of a dog recognizing an orphan returning to a cold and quiet house.  I was surprised to find the twist from bitterness to reconciliation work so well.  Well done, and thought-provoking.

Excellent!! This was great, in every way. This story hits off rather nicely you have Celestia, for the first time I've seen, get surprised. Very nice comical start. Then enter (Alicorn) Twilight, who tounge lashes her teacher/(ex)lover, very subtly, to both amusement and laugh of all, then you kick things down a notch with Twilight's revelations, and to top off the cake you introduce a new love Interest for Celestia (naughty naughty Alicorn). All in all a very fine read, can't tell if this was supposed to be sad, or angst, but I was laughing my plot off!!

If this wasn't marked complete i would be asking for more. Bravo, liked and favorited. Not often do i read "sad" and enjoy it as much as i enjoyed this.

so celestia wants twilight to live for eternity out of essentialy her own greed? i dunno this celestia seems to be more self centered and about herself.

Dammit, now I have to add a story with the sad tag to my favorites.  I hope your happy.

Ugh, reading this makes me want to pull down the sad one I wrote, you manage to be subtle about the sadness but still have it, I have a feeling mine is much to subtle so its crap.

And so, Star Shift stood, invisible eye twitching, hidden by her spell having heard the entire. bucking. conversation!

Everyone wonders how any of the Mane 6 would handle immortality, and you've definitely made the telling point that tells us all "Not very well, if at all."

Twilight found out, and of course blames Celestia:  "Why didn't you tell me it would be like this?"  Even the truth - "You wouldn't have believed me if I had." - would have made it worse.

BUT, the somewhat reconciliation - more a burying the hatchet - was probably the best ending.  And you get through eternity one day at a time, the same way you did with anything else.

Bravo Zulu.

Is it possible a sequel might come of this? Maybe about what happened between Twilight and Spike?

My very first fic involving alicorn Twilight. And one of my first fics since my first real venture into FiMFiction besides Death Note: Equestria. I... feel like I should have in mind a lot to say, but don't seem to (I seem to have this problem often--but then I get talking anyway and it works out and blah blah blah... but I digress), but meh.

Well... I dunno, that was great. The tension, the drama, the echoes of love that once was, and the implications of, as you called it, indefinite lifespan. It all came together wonderfully, I think. Given the context, I found it all very believable... and then we have a new darling, prodigy protege of Celestia's. I liked that part. lol

I dunno, I feel I'm running back into "oh noes, wat to say", so eh. I very much enjoyed the serious nature of this and the bittersweet factor at first, which indeed turns to reconciliation--not a return to how things were, but making up nonetheless. A very mature resolution, I would say. Job well done, will read again.

Also, I want to Follow Alondro just for posting brilliant things. Intelligent with an amusing sense of humor. I approve.

>>20852582085258 Happy you liked the story that much, certainly.

Not happy that you're disparaging your own work in comparison.  Different stories need different levels of subtlety.  It's just down to picking your tools.  Like something like Les Miserables is deliberately unsubtle--it's all about big, raw emotions.  Something like Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy on the other hand is so subtle you can miss displays of emotion when they happen.  They're both very well loved though.

Don't regret the things you've written.  Each one is a learning experience.  If you're not happy with how a story turns out, then that shows you what to work on in your next one.  I mean, I almost gave up on this story for various reasons--after the initial burst that got me through Celestia and Twi being passive aggressive for about a page and a half I wasn't sure it had merit.  But now I'm very glad that I stuck it out and (eventually) figured out how to proceed in a way that made it into the story I wanted it to be.

As I have probably said too often by now: love is a mixture of the magical and the mundane, and you can't push it too far in either direction for too long.

Moreover, there isn't a couple in the known universe(s) that hasn't occasionally experienced a heightened level of snippy.

Which is why this utterly fantastic (in the original sense of the word) tale is so disturbingly realistic. Thumb way, way up.

I'd kinda like to see where Twilight goes with her life from here on out, but this is still a  great standalone regardless

Quiet, pensive, and super-charged. I got a bit of a tight throat. Well done.

A wonderful story, Really makes one think about the consequences of immortality, as well as love.

>>20856792085679

Thanks for the encouragement but its still easy to get discouraged when you see something else that seems to have a similar goal but manages to make it look easy.  Plus it doesn't help that I'm a bit of a perfectionist.  I've only written and uploaded one story that I was actually happy with.  Everything else I've posted I have varying degrees of hate for.

Maybe I like Twilestia more than I let on.

Great job. I'm moved.

>>20843692084369

that sounds like my writing process!  I have a fic on here with 4 of 6 chapters posted, and it's been around 24 weeks since my last updated it.  (it's just a really hard chapter... and writers block is a stubborn foe.)

Honestly not what I was expecting when I saw the sad tag. In fact, I'd say it ended on a rather happy note. Regardless, a wonderful read.

If you've ever played the game, Lost Odyssey, it has the same messages of what someone would do with an eternity. It boils down to continually looking for a meaning to 'Live.' In short, I like the story. Thanks for writing it.

Such a wonderful little story that made me shed a tear... at least it ended in the happy ending category

There's a fave and a thumb up for ya rounding things off.

Allllllright I was holding off on reading this for some reason. Should have read it earlier.

I had been wanting so badly for someone to explore this side of their possible relationship. Eternity is a long damn time after all. I really love Twilestia, but I really think more people should explore things like this. The feels to be made...

Excellent work.

>>20836862083686 oh so seconded. I think at this point Twilight is looking to feel something, anything at this stage in her eternal life. Even if that's pain and hatred, it's still better than

>>20848822084882 It takes two to break a relationship. Twilight lost her friends. Twilight got too clingy. She needed an emotional anchor, but she dragged it down into the depths of her despair with her. Did Celestia think things through rationally and try to be a support without being a crutch? Did she steer Twilight away from this destiny or prepare her well enough for the blows of losing her friends? While Celestia may not be as petty here, she's every bit as much at fault. As for Twilight's obsession with Celestia, Celestia gave her everything in her life save her brother and her foalsitter. Suddenly she cuts off her ties with Twilight. And not in a maternal, in-the-background sort of way. In a sexual, highly personal romance.  How would you take that? Rationally, maturely? Maybe. Come back with clinical OCD like Twilight has and say you would. I'd sooner believe you hooked up with Bigfoot on the rebound. As a matter of fact, none of your comments seem to appreciate that Twilight has a severe and debilitating mental illness that fixates her scope of mind. I'm sorry that people with chemical birth defects disappoint you so greatly.

So question, why isn't this in shipping? A broken, ancient and dysfunctional romance between two characters who have not shown any canonical romantic interactions (boundless subtext aside) is still a romance between two characters who have not shown any canonical romantic interactions.

Well this is for sure a great fic, different, originale... what i like the most is that it left me a tip of bitterness. Great Job

What a perfect little story.  .  Amusing, sad,,, very sad....  but with a lilt of hope at the end,  Perfect.  

This is clever on many levels. I think I wouldn't want a story like this to become a trend, but I'm glad to have read this one.

I totally agree with you on the Twilestia front. It's sweet on the outside, but there's definitely something that doesn't sit right with the relationship. It's kinda creepy on the inside.

And thus Twilight walks away from this conversation still wanting to die, but now with a gnawing feeling of guilt for her own thoughts.

Jesus Christ, that supposedly happy ending is pretty self-destructive don't you think?

Nothing like a bit of self-destructive dissonance.

I want to die. I don't want to disappoint those around me. I want to die. I can't die, they won't let me. Please, just let me die.

Just... Christ.

OH! Good story, loved it, but that ending made me think too much.

>>20882022088202

Eh, look at it this way: If you are thousands of years old, you are a cradle robber even if you go for a wrinkled old bag.

I deem this fic wholly acceptable.

I think the only parts that really dissatisfy me in this work are the references to Spike being rather unclear. We know he got angry at Twilight for some reason, and that he would be particularly angry for her wanting to die, but there's not enough here for me to figure out his reasons for either anger. Did I miss something?

>>20872802087280  That's yet another problem with this story, indeed this entire Twilestia pairing.  We're forced to accept that Celestia completely misses the fact that Twilight IS obsessive to an unhealthy degree and allows such a relationship to begin in the first place.  Such a thing is... well, it's not something someone with any sizeable measure of experience would do.  

Celestia has several dozen lifetimes worth of experience.  She's the last pony one would think would make such an obviously bad choice.

>>20894272089427  Not to offer kneejerk defense of my own work against what is a perfectly valid criticism, but I will say that I think--or hope, at least--that the Celestia portrayed in this story is a pretty deeply flawed individual, far from being immune to mistakes.  In fact, the notion that living a long life makes you more resistant to mistakes runs kind of counter to this narrative in general.

I also don't really think of Twilight as obsessive to an unhealthy degree by nature. Although she could easily become such, if pushed the wrong way.

>>20889182088918  Yeah, I admit, vague allusions to Spike were not my smartest move as an author.  On the one hand, the reason why he's upset with Twilight doesn't really matter to her relationship with Celestia, or even to the fact that Twilight feels so very isolated.  On the other, yeah, just leaving that as a hole for the reader to fill in could confuse people.

Suffice it to say if you really want to know what I was thinking at the time, it was that Spike sided with Celestia in the breakup because Twilight was following a really unhealthy course of action that he didn't support.  And which he wasn't willing to support until she came to her senses on her own, lest he become an emotional crutch.  That being said, I'm not sure he and Celestia are exactly close anymore either, whatever she might have said...

None of that is in the text though, except perhaps by very slight implication.  So a valid point.

>>20883382088338 Hahah, wow Numbers, that is the bleakest reading of this ending that I never thought of.  And perfectly consistent too.  Very interesting.

I guess it raises the question, though, can you get more self-destructive than being suicidal?  Or, alternatively, does being suicidal even count as self-destructive if you've outlived your natural life-span 3 or 4 times already?  Interesting ideas to explore.

What?  I don't have any answers.  Twilight's problems after the last line are hers to deal with.  I'm through.

Although, as an author, I wasn't going to write a story where Twilight was encouraged to commit suicide rather than face reality.

>>20896642089664

Hrmm... I swear I've heard your name before, quite often actually.

You wouldn't happen to have commented frequently on Twilight's Movie Night, would you?

>>20896642089664  And that IS the problem in a nutshell.  Living longer (so long as your brain is not degenerating) DOES make one more immune to mistakes, with obvious considerations for intent and character aside (evil people tend to make more and more mistakes until their die, symptomatic of psychosis, sociopathy, and paranoia).  In general, a stable, intelligent person will learn from both their own mistakes and the observations of other's mistakes, thus leading them to make fewer mistakes the more experience they have.

Conceptually, this reality of life runs counter to the presentation in the narrative.  It's a cognitive disconnect without acceptable resolution.

>>20896882089688 Not as regularly as I meant to, but a few times, yeah.  I think I gave you some minor advice about the second or third chapter as a draft too.  Used to hang out in the irc a lot over the summer.  Not so much now, with school and whatnot.  Anyway I think we chatted a few times.

>>20897132089713  Because it is biologically impossible to live longer without your brain degenerating to some minor degree I don't think we're going to be able to see eye to eye on this.  The older people I've known in my life haven't been free of mistakes.  They just make different ones.  What happens to a lot of people as the age is that they become more set in their ways, and lose some of their ability to address new problems.  

Very, very nicely written!  A bit short, but I'll still like.

>>20898232089823  It's actually not biologically impossible.  We just haven't 'fixed' the evolutionary mistakes yet.  But we're figuring out how.  I know this because I am a biologist, working directly in the field of neurodevelopment, genetics, and regenerative medicine.  We already know many of the mechanisms and the general basis of how to fix them.  The delivery methods are the problem.

Also, Celestia is an alicorn... with magic... who has already lived well over a thousand years without visibly aging a day.

I don't think it can be said our physiology applies to her.

Anyway, it's a general case that with increased wisdom and experience come fewer overt mistakes.  One certainly doesn't continually make the same mistakes repeatedly, unless one is very foolish.  And the evidence suggests Celestia is certainly not foolish.  One does not rule and become beloved and respected by an entire nation by being stup-  (remembers who is president)... oh... damn.  Never mind.  

My thoughts go to Star Shift, and any conversation she might initiate with Celestia about what just happened, and more in depth explanation about what happened in the past. (or even Twilight, given the right circumstances. I could see her broaching the topic of how to deal with the immortality thing, and Twilight giving real answers for a happiness she herself can't have. Or something?)

Also: she's invisible, and her ladyfriend and ladyfriend's ex-ladyfriend are having a painful conversation. She can't not want to listen in.

>>20894272089427 maybe she loves Twilight back. Also, her allowing Twilight's very apparent obsessive-compulsive disorder to go untreated is fully canon. Yes, Twilight's mental illness should be treated by professionals. No, that doesn't mean she can't fall in love, and nor does it mean ponies can't fall in love with her. Also, I like president Obama, but it's generally considered impolite to discuss politics in civil discourse. So there's that, too.

>>20896642089664 Twilight's obsession with Celestia is unhealthy. This is her face when she learns she might disappoint her even slightly:

Image: http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/289/a/7/crazy_twilight_sparkle_by_brianc1006-d4d26pi.png

Half of the work/fun in Twilestia is having her rational, compassionate and enduring aspect overcome her obsessiveness and insecurity, and turning that into a healthy, mutually supportive relationship. A Warm Midsummer's Eve does this best, I think. Or Eternal. Your story is a story about how the loss of her friends meant her obsessive side won.

>>20907472090747  Celestia's love for Twilight is far closer to mother-daughter than lover.  That's more than obvious from their interactions.  Now, Twilight becoming infatuated to the point of lust is arguably realistic, but having Celestia even consider reciprocating what she would identify instantly as an unhealthy obsession is more than irrationally irresponsible.  

We also don't see what leads up to this inexplicable relationship, only that it happened.  Since it is such an odd turn of events, it would help to know in more detail the hows and whys precipitating it.  Specifically, why Celestia went along with it when it would undeniably, unequivocably result in an unstable situation.

>>20908212090821 your interpretation of their interactions. Which, I might point out, is far from the only one or necessarily the best one. That most of us reading this openly accept that this isn't all that surprising a turn of events shows that it is not even necessarily the most prevalent one. I choose to think what they have is closer to Eros, myself. And again, this is a relation that could be stabilized. The tragedy here is not that they tried some warped and twisted relationship that was never meant to be, but that a relationship that once had a good deal of tenderness and love behind it went very, very sour because, like all relationships, it had underlying problems that were never addressed. Far more banal relations than a pair of goddesses, student and teacher at that, have been broken up by this exact problem.

Slow clap, slowly building into a standing ovation.

From me, anyway.  This was an excellent take on Twilestia, and one I hadn't really seen done before.

>>20908212090821

It's quite possible that Twilight grew over time and simply started seeing Celestia for herself and less as a mother/mentor.  Over time, Twilight eventually became immortal and they kinda fell for each other.  Twilight had some issues with dealing with the loss of friends and the limitations of her singular studies.  (You can only learn so much with the same data, sometime a new point of view is needed).  Those problems caused twilight to get clingy and Celestia saw it as unhealthy.  The rest is easy to figure out yourself.

>>20847442084744

Twilight needed someone steady.  What Celestia saw as dependency Twilight saw as a lifeline from what it sounds like.  I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few of the years between the break up and her going to die were lived out of spite.

>>20897132089713

unless everyone you're living with is also growing older if does not make you immune from mistakes because different people would react to your actions in different ways

>>20848822084882

maybe she doesn't know everything but she knows everything Equestria's capable of teaching her.  Sure maybe she could go to Earth and learn quantum physics but she also doesn't know Earth is out there, and the research into going someplace new with the possibility of her research showing her that she has seen everything and knows everything wasn't worth the effort for her at the beginning of this story.

>>20908532090853  Prevalent or not, it makes the old error of attempting to put a human mind and short-lived human thought processes in a being that has powers and age far beyond the comprehension of the sum of human experience.

How does a being that has seen the passage of an entire age perceive the world and the creatures in it?  That is what is at issue here.  Such an entity has insights we can scarcely imagine.  Can you fathom how different your own thoughts would be had you witnessed the entire history of man's attempt to attain flight?  The entirety of the colonialization of America from Columbus' arrival, through the centuries of European expansion, to the birth and rise of the United States?  Wars almost without number, plagues and droughts and famine; and yet as a whole the species ever and anew dragging itself upward, adapting and evolving and yet still finding new ways to then drag itself down and struggle again.  

This is what a being such as Celestia has seen, experienced, lived through.  She battled the god of chaos, a cruel and psychotic unicorn king, and then her own sister.  Celestia is an existence far and beyond anything that we have on Earth.  And yet again and again she is reduced to limited human scope in this pairing, incapable of realizing the simple obvious danger of giving in to a hormonal impulse with an emotionally unstable mare who has just gained immortality.  

Tolkien gave much greater thought to the Elves, Ents, Wizards, and even the enigmatic Tom Bombadil than that!

The ponies are always children to Celestia, and even Twilight when she became an alicorn would still be as barely an infant.  It would be as unthinkable to Celestia to bed her as it is for most of us to think of relations with a toddler!

I only ask that a little deeper consideration be put into the concept!  

If any of the goddess ships makes any sense, it would be Twiluna, as Luna herself has very deep-rooted personal issues and tends to act with great impulsiveness herself.  She has deep-rooted emotional scars, tremendous awkwardness due to her long banishment, and bears the damage from an evil alternate personality.  Luna is the goddess most flawed like us, and most likely to make these mistakes.

There is also Cadence, who is clearly very young herself.  Given that she has visibly aged from her days as Twilight's sitter, it's reasonable to assume she's not much older than she appears.  She too has only a brief life to draw upon, and is also relatable to our own lives.  I therefore find it interesting to point out that in this story she and Shining Armor are noted as having been together for 350 years!   Alicorn of Love, yes yes, but still a 'person'.  Capable of mistakes, and yet has somehow avoided the pitfalls.

There was one long story, "Sunset" I think was the title, that dealt with the incredible complexity that is the life of Celestia and her relationship with Twilight in a very thoughtful and well-reasoned manner within the story's version of Equestria (and quite a few other aspects of the 'godness' of the Princesses as well).

Finally, for those who accuse me of putting too much thought into stories about colorful ponies, I would point out that all of the best fiction tells stories that teach.  To ignore thought is to ignore our own minds.  What is a mind but the sum of its thoughts and memories?

I find I cannot ever think enough.

>>20912082091208  The flaw is not from Twilight's actions.  She is young and immature.  It is with Celestia reciprocating the unhealthy relationship to the point of sexual relations.  Had she rebuffed Twilight's romantic advances from the outset and Twilight still acted with resentment, that I could have accepted.  It is Celestia allowing it to go on for as long as she did, and going so far that I cannot rectify with what I a) know of her personality, and b) what I can extrapolate given an analysis of all her known experience.

>>20914742091474

Celestia doesn't know everything.  She knew Twilight had grown a lot over her life.  She didn't know the death of friends would mess her up as bad as it did.

>>20883382088338

she seems to have no one at this point at time, given she's still at least a little annoyed at Celestia.  The fact that talking things out and the prospect of speaking with Spike is enough to perk her up shows her wanting to die isn't that desperate.

At the least Spike is worth living a few more years for.

>>20912552091255  Equestria would have taught her about death.  I'm sure she saw her grandparents die.  And she could expect to outlive her own parents.  Indeed, I will be facing that shortly myself given my parents age.

if she cannot deal with loss, I would expect her to break down from her parents' deaths as much if not more than her friends'.  This also is something Celestia would have known from simple observation.  She would never have chosen Twilight for ascension if she demonstrated such a degree of instability.

An interesting debate would be to discuss which of the Mane 6 is currently best-suited psychologically to receive and endure immortality.  Hmmm... oh yes, that would be quite interesting indeed.  And take volumes of writing...

>>20914872091487  She doesn't have to know everything.  Just as much as we do from watching Twilight in the show.  That's more than enough to conclude a romantic relationship is ill-advised.

Given that she taught Twilight directly for years, I would say Celestia knows her far better than we do.

>>20915162091516

the loss you don't expect is worse than the one you do.  Every adult knows their parents will die, but I think it's harder to accept all your peers will die.  

Of all the shipping stories... I have to say when I see a really good Twilestia one I looove them the most. Of course the trick with them is to get past that teacher/student/age thing that you mentioned. I have to say I really enjoyed this one taking a look back at old relationships that ended poorly and... those involved are seeking to try and maybe heal the old wounds.

>>20913572091357 I never accused you of putting too much thought into the story. Never, never think I discourage thinking. But it seems we must disagree once again on how Celestia works. Celestia has lived many years, yes, and she has done many things, yes, but she still has emotions and does make mistakes (Canterlot Wedding, Return Of Harmony) and get caught in social situations she isn't prepared for (A Bird In The Hoof, Sweet and Elite, Canterlot Wedding). Just because she is ancient does not mean she can't have weaknesses and certainly doesn't mean she can't be lonely or want someone in a romantic sense. As for who that might be, consider the scope of her options: You have a powerful, immortal once-unicorn who has lived through many of the same trials and pains as she has (growing distant from your siblings, fighting every one of the aforementioned creatures, being betrayed by the ponies you love), your immediate family, a collection of wise but mortal ponies approaching your age who have reached their full potential and still haven't reached your level of power and maturity (by your reasoning, at least. I believe Celestia has many psychological issues and flaws that Varanus outlines best of us on this site), a baby dragon who will mature outside of your society, or, if he does, will not fit in easily, your biological family, and an insane chaos god who you barely trust is on your side. So if Twilight shows interest, maybe Celestia reciprocates. I certainly don't think she sees herself as Twilight's mother-figure. She's far too martyr-like to be able to convince herself she replaces Ms. Velvet in Twilight's heart. Now as to whether she does or not is another matter entirely.

As for Tolkein's elves, are you kidding me? Tolkein's elves were some of the most flawed characters in the stories! Between Elrond being too distant to save his friend from The Ring's corruption and his inaction nearly costing all of Middle Earth on several occasions, Legolas falling to the temptation of the seagulls and becoming a sailor in Return of The King and the elves of Mirkwood trying to steal the gold under the Lonely Mountain for themselves, they all made some pretty spectacular mistakes and failings. The Maiar are worse: Saruman fell to the temptation of Sauron because the very idea of something more powerful than him in Middle Earth drove him insane, Radagast was an eccentric old hermit who stood by and watched his beloved forests burn under Saruman's war machines rather than make a stand with the Ents, Bombadil had a bit of a temper and a certain carelessness that made him charming, and Gandalf made the poor decision to try climbing Cadharas for the whole of the Fellowship, leading into the disaster at Moria and the two hobbits leaving for Mordor on their own.

My point is thus: We disagree on how Celestia and other immortals carry themselves. This is fine. You are welcome to your interpretation of Celestia as honed with a beautiful intellect by years of studying and learning from her mistakes under her own free will who took a pony under her tutelage for the sake of her country and developed motherly affections for her on the side. I'm also entitled to my interpretation of the lonely and socially awkward old mare who can't find a way to get her subjects to stop treating her like an icon of glory and has wanted somepony who really understands (or is willing to try) by her side for centuries, and who would spring at the chance to enter into something more with an old friend and student if the chance presented itself the same way she sprung into tutoring her, introducing her to friends or keeping the baby dragon hatched at her feet instead of taking it back to its people. You can';t just say "I read Tolkein and his interpretation of immortals is best, therefore my interpretation of this immortal is best." Instead you can say"gee, I don't really think of Celestia this way, but gosh darn it this is pretty well written anyway." Like I did with Archmage, Sharing The Night or A Candle To The Sun.

Tl;dr--I like "Sunset" too. But again, your way has lots of thought put into it, but it is far from the only one. Go out and read the better Twilestias. They all cover most of what you say pretty nicely, and the build up to the relationship itself can take anywhere from weeks to years. Hardly a hormonal choice.

Good.

Very, very, very good.