The fall
Twilight sat in the corner of the train car compartment and cried. It all went so horribly wrong! Why did it go so wrong?! And on top of that, she had rejected her teacher, thinking she had it, she knew better what is needed, disdaining the manipulation, condemning the endless testing and rejecting whatever secret plans Princess Celestia had for her. How come that so many of these tests ended all right, and this one, for which she had prepared so thoroughly, went so terribly awry?!
And worst of all, by her selfish wish she had sentenced the world to many years of darkness and hate...
She cast her eye at the heavy briefcase loaded with all kinds of books that were meant to give her the upper hoof. Well, the answers to all single questions were all correct, it was something greater than the sum of all elements that didn't come together.
All in all, the only part on which she did allow Princess Celestia to have her way on her departure, the one she thought was a mockery of her skill stopped the worst of... no, I can't selfishly look at my personal surroundings and say they are the most important... it saved the last scraps from the disaster. Her five friends survived. Cadance and Shining survived, though both gravely ill. If not for Luna, it wouldn't even end that well at all. Luna, whom Princess Celestia insisted Twilight takes too once she finished with her own checklist.
She looked at her checklist.
☑ The Elements of Harmony.......................................................6pcs.
☑ The Royal Guards, Pegasi.......................................................32 ponies.
☑ The Royal Guards, Unicorns...................................................16 ponies.
☑ Expense account — basic expenses.........................................37,845 bits.
☑ Expense account — unforseen events allowance.......................5,000 10,000 bits.
☐ Transport (zeppelin or chariot)...............................................1
☑ Master Mages.......................................................................3 ponies.
☑ Books on Crystal Empire.........................................................All of them!
✔ Special Train (all-weather long-distance!)
That entry about books, "All of them!" seemed to be so mocking her. She threw another glimpse at the briefcase with books. She'll never feel the same reaching for a book again. Providing she ever gets the opportunity...
The train pulled into the station and Twilight swallowed hard. Canterlot? Already?
She went to her friends to hug them... maybe for the last time. They all shared rather similar glances. "You had it coming, Twilight. Best of luck."
The train would continue to Ponyville to bring the five home, but Twilight would need to see Princess Celestia about her failure. And face the consequences. Six guards dead. Eight permanently crippled. She didn't even know what happened to the rest!
She stepped out of the train, and there was a wing of guards waiting for her.
"Don't try anything funny, Twilight Sparkle. Princess Celestia wants to see you."
* * *
They were sitting in Celestia's private office, on soft cushions around the low table. There were two cups of tea on it, as well as several books scattered around, just like so many times during the happy times of learning. This time the books sent a cold shiver up Twilight's spine.
Celestia lifted her cup of tea and took a sip.
"Don't take this as a sign of callousness, Twilight. Tea helps me stay calm. It's hard enough for me to stay calm and I need all the help I can get currently. Thirty-eight missing in action. I didn't really foresee you'd take that many. I hoped you'd stop at two or five."
Twilight's voice was breaking as she asked. "What happened to them?"
"They are Sombra's slaves now. Now, and for another hundred years, until another chance arises."
"It's all my fault."
"Yes and no. There's a lot of my fault in it too. Why didn't I check how many you took until after your departure? Why didn't I recall most of them?"
"Because then I'd blame my failure on your..." Twilight's voice broke and she cried for a while. "...your meddling," she coughed out through tears, hating herself for uttering this word in relation to her teacher.
"I could have cut the number in half and you'd still learn your lesson. But I didn't and the current state of survivors, all the unnecessary deaths are on me. For plain negligence."
"Princess!" Twilight's eyes filled with tears rose to her teacher. "How can you blame yourself for what is entirely my fault?!"
"Twilight... If I believed it was all your fault, do you think you'd be sitting by this table with me now? Do you believe you would be anywhere but the dungeons?"
"But... but... Maybe not all of it. I mean... most of it is Sombra's fault, not mine. But it's like blaming fire for burning a house down."
"Twilight, you thought you knew better. You hoped for the best. You failed through good, though misguided intentions. Now look at me. I knew you'd fail from moment one, as soon as you began making the extra requests, and I still sent you. That writ allowing recruitment of guards... passing it to you I felt like I'm passing a death sentence on them. My innocent, faithful, trusting servants, whom I murdered in cold blood by passing them to you, a blind, impartial executioner, the only purpose of their deaths to teach you a lesson. This is why I bless that tea, because it stops me from plunging into the Sun for what I have done. There is no punishment for my crime and I will bear the conscience of it for all of eternity, as I bear conscience of several such events from the past already."
This time Twilight looked up at the princess. Her gaze was filled with so much grief, so much compassion. Celestia raised her cup to her mouth, but it shook in her white glow, the drink spilling. A purple glow encompassed it and helped it to the mouth of the princess. The short nervous sip seemed to help the Sun Princess regain some composure. She lay the cup and took a few deep breaths letting the taste sink in and calm her down.
"You may wonder why I'm telling you this. I do not deserve to share this burden. I did not earn your compassion for my horrible crime. But it is still my duty to punish you for your failure. This information, this awareness of the consequences of your actions is your punishment. You will bear the conscience of these events to the end of your life as I bear it for all of eternity. No further consequences shall be drawn. I couldn't bear punishing you any more anyway..."
Another nervous sip. The cup was enveloped in the purple glow all the way this time.
Celestia sighed heavily. "Let's go through your mistakes, point by point. Report the whole thing."
* * *
"Twily! You made it!" Shining Armor's eyes probably widened in shock though the shutter glasses hid that. "And you brought a whole army!"
"I am SOOO prepared for this!" Twilight cheered.
"We'd better get moving. There are things out here we'd better not run into after the dark."
"Hah! Just let them try!"
The column of ponies moved into the snowed landscape, Rarity generously sharing her supply of scarves with guards shuddering in the blizzard.
The column moved through the snow as Twilight shared plans of her tactic with Shining Armor. "So, he forms a cloud. The airborne guards bind him in knots. You, the scholars and the unicorns hold him with a barrier long enough for the six of us to charge Elements of Harmony. And then — BLAM! Rainbow of Friendship to the face!"
A horn-like distant roar sounded. "It's one of these things!" Fluttershy trembled.
"Form the line!" commanded Shining. The unicorns spread out, the magi took their central places. Twilight distributed the Elements from her saddlebags to her friends.
A dark cloud appeared from behind the horizon. The thirty-two airborne pegasi struggled against the wind of the blizzard in their heavy armors. Not a thousand of them could oppose this kind of power, but they weren't here to stop it, they were to amplify it — and that they could do. Twisting with the currents, they turned them into a core of a white hurricane as big as the dark cloud, and set their white funnel on the path of the incoming darkness. The cloud tried to dodge the whirlwind, but it was too strong, sucking it in, strand by strand.
The magical combatants raised their shield, a dark purple sphere containing the tainted whirl within. With no pegasi propelling it within the shield, there was nothing to keep the whirlwind running and the cloud filled the volume of the sphere, two glowing eyes glaring from it at the group.
"Ready, girls?" asked Twilight.
"Ready!"
* * *
"Did you account for all the pegasi at that point, Twilight?"
"No, not really. They were to fall back."
"Pegasi must fly in circular pattern either around or within the hurricane to maintain it. Stray from the course and the hurricane ebbs, or drifts at random. You were very close, they could not allow it to roll over you. They had to stay outside or inside. That means either mixed with contained Sombra, or flying into his mass as he approached. Both would have them pulled in and imprisoned. Only a powerful unicorn with focus on defense, like your brother can withstand within that cloud, sane and unhurt for any considerable period of time. But you're not a flier so you didn't know. My bet is half of them were already imprisoned by that point."
A drop of sweat formed on Twilight's forehead.
"...But this is moot. Had the Elements worked, they would be free. Hurt and aching and badly shocked but safe. Alas..."
"Princess, but why didn't the Elements..."
Celestia lifted a small book from the pillows onto the table. The title embossed in simple letters read
Elements of Harmony — the reference guide.
"You didn't read it whole through?"
"I... kinda... skimmed."
"Open up on the chapter of 'Applications' and read."
The Elements unleash their power only in case a chaotic interference endangers a major part of the world. They will not activate versus smaller threats — ones threatening single provinces or even big countries. They will not activate if the threat is not imminent. They are an ultimate weapon that can't be used in a pre-emptive strike or as a warning shot — they are final.
Interestingly, The Elements don't have any awareness of their own. It's only the belief of their bearers that creates the impression of scale of the threat. Misguided bearers may fire them at a roadside bandit if they are led to believe he is an ancient god returned, or may fail to fire at a deadly threat they underestimated. Nevertheless, the cost (see →Cost) is deducted, no matter what they are used against.
Twilight tried to flip to the table of contents, to see the chapter about the cost. Celestia held the book with her magic, not letting her student to flip pages.
"No, Twilight. I don't want you any more distressed than you are. Let me just tell you one should not use the Elements idly. The cost is significant. But now, as I know you don't know it yet, I prefer it to stay that way. Keep reading."
Note the prerequisite of chaotic character of the interference. It must either create chaos (forces of destruction) or bear internal conflict (cursed entities). The action the Elements perform is dissolving the chaotic essence and spreading it thinly in area wide enough that it remains harmless, while maintaining the orderly, or neutral core untouched. This way they decontaminate any entities affected by chaos. The bearers may mis-categorize their opponent as chaotic, while they may be of the Ordered Evil kind. In this case the Elements will fire, but the target will only be deprived of last shards of chaos residing in them, while their intent and corruption will remain untouched.
"I... I must have skipped over this paragraph while skimming." Twilight muttered.
"You'd still try them despite that, wouldn't you?"
"I thought Sombra is chaos incarnate!"
"Discord is Chaos Incarnate. Actually, he's a piece of rock so soaked with chaos that it gave him life and will. The species of 'draconequus' as he likes to call himself is his own invention. In fact his genus is Feldspathic Arenite. a granitic type of sandstone. But he gets very annoyed when you mention that. Now for Sombra..."
"It's his obsession with crystals, isn't it?"
"Yes. Crystals are the very essence of order, and Sombra is all about crystals. A particular, dark, devious kind of crystals, dangerous and deeply evil but still orderly to the extreme. Discord lacked kindness, generosity, honesty or loyalty. He had a different kind of magic, and more than a healthy dose of laughter, but laughter is the pinch of chaos that is needed in true harmony and so the Elements leave that alone and even restore to original. Now for Sombra... he's honest: if he tells he will kill you, don't beg for mercy. He's loyal. He never betrays these who join his forces. He's also generous towards them, taking with full hoof from the others. His magic... you had a taste of it. It's our kind of magic, only the dark part. And he knows laughter, he laughs at these suffering as his slaves... Oh, he lacks kindness, but that isn't nearly enough for the Elements to hit."
"So, I failed through my lack of preparation. I wielded a weapon I couldn't use..."
"I wouldn't say that's why you failed..."
"I know, I know! I failed through not trusting you! But then I failed again because of that!"
Celestia just sighed. "The elements went off. The expectable after-blast left all dazed, but Sombra as the most powerful recovered first, and began his grim harvest. Luna saved whomever she could, but she was only one, and she couldn't fight Sombra on herself. She had to choose, to prioritize. She saved you six, Shining, Spike and was left with enough time to save eight guards. Two pegasi, six unicorns. The rest fell victim to Sombra, these who fought were killed, these who yielded — enslaved."
"...and from there it was only a downwards spiral..."
* * *
We needed a backup plan. It didn't take me long to locate the Heart and for Rainbow Dash to recover it. I mean, if there were any traps or obstacles along the way, it seemed as if Sombra forgot some ponies are airborne. Still, to recharge the heart we needed a lot of joy, and with the injured and missing ones it was hard to gather enough high spirits. Besides, due to all the time spent gathering resources in Canterlot, we were almost a day later than we would be if we went immediately.
Still, we tried our best. We made the funnel cake and got some ponies to gather. The jousting was a total failure, Fluttershy wouldn't even start moving, paralyzed by fear. Rarity made the flag, Applejack tried to make something with the crystal berries, but it was more of hit or miss, she was too nervous and absent-minded to concentrate on the task. The tiny ewes managed to calm Fluttershy enough that she managed to bring them to the fair. Pinkie tried to play the flugal horn, but after a while even she admitted she has no clue how to do it and is utterly horrible at it. It looked like we had it under control for a time. Cadance collapsed for a moment, but she restored her strength. And after a while the Crystal Ponies began flocking to the Crystal Heart.
And then it all crashed. They would see it dark and empty, and they'd turn away. And they saw the wave of dark crystals approaching from the side of the shield. Some tried to fight, to focus on the heart. That wasn't nearly enough. Cadance tried to call them to be strong. Nothing would help. Our initial failure left us too dispirited to fight in our earnest. The advantage the added resources gave us appeared illusory once our own inner strength faltered.
It was then, as the ring of dark crystals began closing on the remaining survivors, that Princess Luna descended on us from her place somewhere in the tower and took us away, all the way to the station with her spell.
And I won't ever forget the sight on Cadance's face, as she watched her kingdom, veiled in dark clouds and black crystals blink out of existence.
* * *
"Poor Cadance, she took it hard. Another hundred years of being a guest in Canterlot, a refugee. Grabbing at unlikely jobs like a foalsitter to distract herself from thoughts about the fate of her people. But she waited well over a thousand years already, and she assured me another hundred doesn't make that much difference — that is roughly how often the kingdom reappears. I think it's thanks to Shining Armor that she didn't even cry. Thanks to him she can cope better than she would otherwise."
"But... But you said the world would be..."
"Parasprite invasions, alicorns going insane from solitude, dragons veiling the country with dark smoke, cockatrices turning ponies to stone, Diamond Dogs kidnapping our kind into slavery, even ponies trying to cheat other ponies. It's a dark world we live in, Twilight Sparkle, it was so for the past thousand years and it will remain such for another hundred at least."
"But... The kingdom was... The crystals..."
"We couldn't break the curse. Only the fully recharged heart can do it. But we managed to tamper with it. Do you think the pristine, if dull city you saw was what we encountered once we managed to imprison Sombra? Oh, no, Twilight. I..."
Celestia lifted the cup to her mouth and took a deep sip.
"Allow me to skip graphic descriptions. I really don't want to come back to these memories."
Twilight just sat silently for a while, then nodded and dared to lift her own, so far untouched cup of tea to her lips. She took a tiniest sip, trying to find the same calm her mentor would find in the drink.
"We altered the curse. We made it revert the city to a state from before Sombra's great rise. We couldn't get it to times before his rule, but still we recovered it to where the corruption didn't even begin to spread. It is reset to this state each time, and the ponies lose memory of the events of last return. But they lose more than that. More memories each time are erased. This forgetting spell, this is not Sombra's work, it's mine."
Twilight raised her gaze to the alicorn.
"Princess... Now I know better than to question your wisdom. But tell me please, wouldn't giving us just that book on the Crystal Empire history, no Elements, no soldiers, just the knowledge — wouldn't that make it still easier?"
"Twilight," Celestia frowned. "Think about the fundamental reason of your failure."
"I was arrogant."
"No. If you just turned your back on me snorting that you despise my methods, you'd still have won."
"I depended too much on resources, on goods, and too little on my skills and on my friends."
"That is a derivative of the original reason."
"I thought I had it all under control."
"That's a specific variant of it."
"I... I was overconfident in my success."
Celestia nodded.
"You witnessed this lesson once already. Applejack promised to bring full saddlebags of blue ribbons, didn't she? She was completely sure she would win all the competitions. And she didn't win a single one."
"I'm not learning from my past lessons, am I?"
"The lesson in friendship and forgiveness was well learned. But it is only when we aren't sure of our victory that we give it our best. When we know the recipe by heart, we fail by neglecting details and not putting all of our hearts in the execution. If you piece it together, struggle for each bit, and put all of your heart in it, the end result may be a wonder. If you do it by the book, you get a generic product of passable quality. This is my answer to why I was sending you to all these dangerous missions with poor preparation, on short notice and withholding details. They weren't just tests, they were all lessons, to teach you new things, to give you new strengths. You wouldn't obtain them by following instructions..."
"Still, I failed to learn the lesson in humility..."
"It's a difficult lesson and I take it over and over myself. Last time I was taking it while suspended in a cocoon from the ceiling of the throne room. So I'm not going to blame you for failing it."
"So, with the book..."
"You wouldn't learn the depth of distress of the crystal ponies. You would never realize how vital it is for the fair to be absolutely superb. You'd do a perfectly correct job of filling the heart halfway and not getting anywhere. How do I know? That's what the second, the third and the fourth team of ponies sent to restore the Kingdom did. Each knowing everything about the trials of the previous one. I needed these three failures to learn this."
"And the first?"
"About as bad as yours. The only solace I find is that I didn't know I was sending them to die."
"Did you try yourself?"
"No. At best I served as a rapid escape, last second rescue. I am powerful, and the more power you have the easier for it to corrupt you. I was forced to reach to the dark side too many times in the past. I can't risk getting exposed to that. The horn injury your brother sustained? He will have some nightmares and dark thoughts for time to time. Had it happened to me, my horn would be red already, and my coat turning the color of ash."
Celestia downed the rest of the content of her cup.
Twilight met Celestia's gaze. It bore hard sadness.
"Yes, Twilight. Tonight I try to stay as honest with you as possible. So yes, I do question it. Sometimes I doubt it's just responsibility and think it's common cowardice. You form your opinion yourself. Just take into account that sunlight is a very precious commodity. One that might bring some very high prices in case of... forced shortages..."
"So, did you ever come close to..." Twilight voice trailed off, but then seeing the suddenly distressed face of the princess, she noticed the ambiguity of the question. "To setting the Crystal Kingdom free, I mean!"
Celestia took a deep breath and lifted the cup, then drank the last drops. Even that little seemed to help and calm her down. Twilight wondered, how. Tea didn't work on her like that at all. She'd have to ask Princess some day. Providing that...
"Two hundred years ago. Cadance tried to grab the heart falling from the tower. She was too tired. She failed. But the fair, as I heard, was to die for. This time, with Shining, I really hoped that part would have gone better."
"And a hundred years ago?"
"One of the ponies running to the city slipped. Sombra consumed her whole. The rest was so mortified they packed up in the morning and ran without even trying."
"Wait, do you mean that any of us could... just by slipping..."
The glow enveloped the empty cup but it vanished without the cup ever moving. Twilight looked into Celestia's eyes, and there was a cold hardness in them. These weren't eyes of a friendly teacher. These were eyes of a ruler.
"Yes. Weighing life of one pony, or six ponies, or seven, against freedom of a whole kingdom."
"These aren't yours to sacrifice."
"You are wrong here, Twilight Sparkle. I am the princess. These are my decisions to make."
The stare was still cold, but Twilight felt the edge in the voice. The edge of pain so deep it made her shudder. She felt that under that cold shell Celestia was weeping.
She thought about her snotty, defiant refusal. About rumors of Celestia's plans to make her a royalty. How she told the Princess that she doesn't care. She hadn't realized what burden being a royalty is. That it wouldn't be a reward or a gift, but a duty of the hardest kind.
A duty that would lighten the burden of the princess just a little.
"Here, mine is still warm", Twilight switched Celestia's cup for her own, still almost full.
* * *
They lay on the balcony watching creations of Luna unveil on the sky.
"I should have asked this in the beginning. I took the answer for granted, and I was wrong. Twilight, tell me please. Will you help me?"
"Yes, Celestia." Somehow dropping the title felt appropriate. They were no longer the teacher and the student, the ruler and the subject, the goddess and the believer. They were friends, friends in misery and grief. To command life of others, to take responsibility for them. To have them killed by your mistakes. Twilight didn't taste sacrificing lives of others in cold blood yet and she was glad for this little mercy.
"Will you trust me?"
"I will."
"Even knowing that I may be sending you to certain death? That I may be sacrificing your life for something I believe is more important?"
Twilight hesitated.
"Give me a hint. Let me tell my friends good-bye when such time comes."
Celestia was silent for a while.
"Yes, I know..." Twilight continued. "You can't foresee me slipping on ice. But if you send me like you sent these scholars and guards..."
"I will." Celestia nodded, and a tear rolled from her eye. "I will."
"And..." Twilight's smiled sourly, looking up to her teacher... no, to her friend. "Is it wrong for me to believe that even in the direst of dangers you watch over us from the shadows, and take care that nothing bad happens to us in the end?"
Celestia gave Twilight a motherly look. A look of a mother turning to a child who should have known better. "Now, now, such belief could lead to overconfidence."
"Fine, I won't," Twilight stated, a half-smile, half-smirk appearing on her mouth as Celestia extended her wing and embraced her student... no, her friend, in a protective embrace.
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Welp.
Nice.
I like the idea, but you could really use a proofreader.
You've got a fair number of grammar/spelling issues, for instance:
- I believe you mean "she had it"and "she knew"
- "How come so many"
1755791
Thanks. Yes, I think I could. I wrote it in a spur of a moment, maybe two hours total. And finding a proofreader last time took me nearly a week. I really didn't want to go through this again.
It's...kind of meh, in all honesty. It hypes up Celestia a bit too much, never mind that Celly does screw up horribly (Hi Chrysalis!) and it's the villains acting like complete morons which end up saving the day.
Like Discord.
Or Nightmare Moon.
1755944
Wait wait wait. Did we read the same story? The actual story (past the train which was just an intro) starts with Celestia screwing up horribly. And she does mention the Chrysalis fiasco too. Not to mention the number of failures against Sombra! Still, she has experience, something Twilight is lacking. And what she helps Twilight gather, sometimes by denying basic gear and resources that would make a challenge too easy, sometimes by denying them when it would only conflict with the right solution...
It's actually the taste of dire failure that binds them in the end!
"Your overconfidence is your weakness." :lukeskywalker:
Finally gave it a read and must say was good. Dont know what more to say as not to start nitpicking at what i personally dont like.
Several things don't work with this story. First of all in the episode Sombra had already made his way inside the empire. The Crystal Ponies were already demoralized and ready to flee, it only took the appearance of the Crystal Heart and Cadence being recognized as the Crystal Princess to restore their faith. Secondly the idea that the presence of the Chrystal Empire eliminates all evil and darkness from the world is certainly not true. The last few episodes have shown that negative feelings like vengeance and sadism still exist in Equestria. Finally, the idea that Celestia would sacrifice Twilight or any of her subjects is simply ludicrous, if anything she would sacrifice herself before she should allow harm to come to anypony.
1764357
Sombra only broke into the Empire once Cadance's power faltered for a moment and as she restored the shield, she chopped the tip of his horn off - the corruption grew from that piece of horn.
It took the fair, spectacular success of Cadence in recovering the heart and enormous amount of positive feelings, hope resulting from that, to recharge the heart. That wife toss was a spectacular piece, and certainly played no lesser role than the awesome fair. We can only speculate what would happen if the heart was residing in the middle, filled drop by drop as ponies watch approaching darkness unable to enjoy the fair, and Cadance tries to woo them to feel better without being able to do anything about it.
Why doesn't the recharged heart work on current episodes as Celestia suggested in the early part of the Sombra episode? I don't know. Ask the show authors. My best bet is the influence is subtle and takes a lot of time to spread.
As for Celestia sacrificing self, excuse me, and who will be raising the Sun then? She'd *love* to sacrifice herself like that, but she can't *afford* that. If she could renounce the crown and the duty of rising the Sun and pass it to a worthy successor, she'd do it without a blink of an eye and then we might see her as a true hero. But with this duty - she can't risk herself.
1764357 1764735
Additionally, if she's on the verge of falling to the dark side of herself, she won't put herself in a position where she'd be overwhelmed, and thereby become a threat to her ponies.
Okay, I forced myself to read this, and I have to point out several errors.
Wow, you made the elements a dues ex only device, and there was no indication in the show of the restrictions you made up. You also state that, throughout the entire series, Twilight never read up more on the Elements of Harmony, even after she personally owned one. Also, tornadoes in FIM generally seem to push things together, so no pegasi would need to touch a cloud. (By the way, physics in MLP:FiM has been shown to not work the same as physics on Earth various times) Even if this weren't the case, it would be possible to manipulate the air in such a way that no pegasi touched Sombra. You made up stuff just so Twilight would fail to prove your point, please don't just pull facts out of your ass if you want to find a good story.
Now on to Celestia: Celestia only gave information describing previous failures to Twilight after she failed. Before that she only told that there were previous failures. From what you've written, It seems Celestia wanted Twilight to fail and didn't care about her guards or the lives of anypony.
A much smaller error: Cadence hasn't lived for a thousand years. She was a foal when Twilight was a foal.
Now back to Twilight: To prove the point of your story, Twilight somehow lost all of the personality that made her "overconfident" in the first place, and became completely submissive. And that so called overconfidence came from a fully thought out battle plan that should have worked if you take away the stuff you made up, and after that, its failure is then ultimately due to Celestia's gross negligence.
Finally, you made the morals of the story that you should blindly trust your superior and that justified confidence is overconfidence.
And all of this was a counterargument to a story or group of stories pointing out certain flaws in Celestia, showing that she was not a perfect ruler or mentor. Well your counterargument failed.
2818452
They were a deus ex device since moment one, since intro of E1S1. Note this was written before "Discord Reformed" which was the first non-battle use of the Elements, and the only logical reason why they haven't been used against Sombra is that they wouldn't work.
She hurriedly read - skimmed the Reference Guide during Nightmare's attack, with all the others waiting for her. I assumed she "considered the book read" afterwards and didn't return to it to re-read it more thoroughly. Not much of a stretch.
The pegasi fly with the tornado, it's been shown multiple times. If they knew how disastrous getting caught in Sombra's cloud is they might have tried to avoid it - still, an order is an order and they'd follow it, sacrificing their lives, even if the order is faulty; probably under Dash's command they could have avoided that, but it was Twilight who commanded them, and I really doubt she has much clue about finer points of flight techniques.
Please, I never defied the canon. I nudged the undefined here or there, I made Twilight less omniscent than the fandom likes to picture her, but "there is no indication that..." doesn't mean "there is an indication that it's not..." - if canon doesn't deny it, I can pull it out of my ass all I want.
No, Celestia merely choose to allow Twilight to fail on her own. She knew Twilight would fail. Twilight asked wrong questions and demanded wrong resources. She defied Celestia and went to do it her own way. That moment it was pretty much lost, and explaining to Twilight how wrong it was would not fix things. If Twilight yielded, if she didn't get what she wanted, she would still fail (disheartened by Celestia's refusal and "not doing things the way she wanted") and in result she'd have blamed Celestia on not letting her try her own way anyway. Instead, Celestia decided just to provide to all Twilight's whims and nothing more, let Twilight earn every visible bit of her failure. In essence, the delay caused by necessary explanations would thwart it already; so Celestia decided: if this time the Empire can't be saved, let us at least teach Twilight a lesson on failing. If she's to fail, let her fail hard."
I don't think there are many fics that really see it that way. She was old enough to be a babysitter, and I believe being an alicorn she can adapt her body to look younger.
Oh, for the first time you decide to defy your master, and for the first time you fail utterly and thoroughly? Wouldn't that kill that overconfidence you have built quite efficiently? And no, that battle plan was doomed to a failure from moment one. That's why Celestia didn't suggest it in the first place. She IS a competent ruler after all, and she wouldn't send the Bearers so underprepared without a seriously good reason. For the first time Twilight really wanted to "do it all on her own" and Celestia merely gave Twilight enough rope to hang herself.
...did you miss "time is of essence"? Did you miss how the Crystal Empire was saved in the nick of second before Sombra would consume it? Seriously, Celestia could have spent all the time in the world to teach Twilight of her mistakes, but it would be too late for the Crystal Empire anyway.
And all of this was a counterargument to a story or group of stories pointing out certain flaws in Celestia, showing that she was not a perfect ruler or mentor. Well your counterargument failed.
You should trust your superior if they were right most of the time, but more importantly you shouldn't spend a day on getting every last bit of resources you might need if they tell you to hurry up and do this fucking NOW!
There is time to discuss it, and there is time to oppose, argue and plan together. But in times of emergency you'd better obey the orders unless you already know you're qualified to give them.
This was the counterargument to the first chapter of that story group, which tried to show Celestia as a totally incompetent moron.
In the end, let me add: You certainly know what does the Q stand in "IQ". Intelligence Quotient. That means something is divided by something... what by what? Well, the test score by age. That means a person of 40 years must score twice as high on answers as a person of 20 years to get the same IQ. It normalizes the score across all ages but this forced normalization shows the natural trend: people gain skill, knowledge and ability to solve problems over time. Older is smarter, that's the scientific fact.
And I try to imagine how incredibly smart you must be to score the average 100 IQ at age of well over 1000.
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I didn't see any ad hominem in your argument, which is kind of surprising considering the wording of my original comment, so I'll continue this argument seriously...
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I didn't say that the elements weren't a deus ex device, I was just saying you added restrictions that were never hinted at before. The fact that the elements weren't used against Sombrero does not necessarily indicate restrictions on them either.
With only that as backing for the elements not working against Sombrero, while they worked against both Discord and Nightmare Moon, it seems unlikely that they wouldn't work. It might have made sense if Sombrero had prepared for the elements, but to do this he would have to have knowledge of their workings, meaning he was either a former element or that an element had studied them and published their findings, including weaknesses.
Actually, I think that it is that much of a stretch. When she originally skimmed the reference guide, she was in a hurry to go to Ponyville and find the elements to stop a disaster that would occur at nightfall. After obtaining an element, as analytical as Twilight is, it only makes sense that she would read up more on one of her most important possessions.
But they do not dissipate immediately, in Wonderbolt Academy, when Lightning Dust and Rainbow Dash create a tornado together, the tornado lives on for a while after going out of control. Also, its possible that pegasi could fly just out of reach of the cloud or dodge it if Sombrero tried to grab them, though this would be incredibly dangerous.
...okay. My point was: if you "nudge the undefined here or there" too much, it looks like your forcing things.
She could have said, "That is exactly what the last x elements did," shown Twilight a history book and have her glance over it. Twilight could have been scolded that way without the loss of several soldiers. It would have been faster than granting Twilight her supplies.
Eh, that fair.
Not if your master wanted you to fail to teach you a lesson, and withheld information that would have led to better circumstances, such as the fact that the elements wouldn't work.
Why do you think she is a competent ruler? much of your argument rests on that opinion.
Is it because, over the course of her entire rule, there have been no uprisings or wars between ponies? If so, you should consider that ponies are herbivores and can eat grass, and that the population that she rules over is small compared to many human populations. There is an abundance of both space and food, which were at least the tipping points for many wars throughout history. An abundance of resources usually meant a peaceful tribe in very early history.
If time was of the essence, then Celestia could have skipped some earlier friendship lessons for the more important task of saving an entire city. Despite the fact that Celestia herself was told about it last minute, she should have prepared before-hand if she knew it was going to reappear eventually.
Even without that, she could have given Twilight some reading material for her train-ride on the way to the Crystal Empire. She could have gathered that material while she was waiting for Twilight to arrive. Even with a lack of information, she could have given Twilight the map she had, or she could have sent more ponies to search through the empire and gather information, saving Twilight time. Twilight and her friends spent much of their time interviewing ponies and searching through books.
Much of the time was also wasted by Twilight searching for the crystal heart alone since she thought it was all a test. And she could have been stuck by herself in front of that door if it weren't for spike.
Well, you can trust them to be right again if they've proved their competence there, but you can't trust their intentions if they never made those clear to you. Case in point where, in your story, Celestia sends Twilight to a battle where she could have been killed to prove her wrong.
You can make haste and still be much more prepared than they were in that episode. And with research on the subject, Twilight became more and more qualified for any plan she decided to take. A backing with research would be much more trustworthy than "King Solomon is going to attack the magical reappearing crystaldom, here's a map. Kthxbye." (If I'm remembering my FIM correctly)
Intelligence isn't really defined well, and the IQ test only tests very specific tasks. People outside of modern culture would have a very hard time getting a high score.
That said, they way people gain "experience" over time is that the brain loses connections, favoring repeated patterns so that it can do those tasks faster. People become more experienced in things they do continually, and Princess Celestia does not wage war regularly, (though there were quite a few recent battles) so she should not be experienced in such a task, just like how someone who has only played piano a few times in their life shouldn't be an experienced pianist.
Even ignoring that, there would be some theoretical limit on how "intelligent" someone could get. You can't store an infinite amount of information in a limited amount of space. (Though there are problems that take very, very long to solve that you could store the answers to.)
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The elements are overpowered as they are currently.
Not imposing any kind of restrictions on them makes them simply ridiculously overpowered. I mean, why not use them to heal all the sick in the land? Why not generate a wall of good will that will protect Equestria from malevolent invaders forever? Why not heal the Everfree Forest?
No, the Elements' power is restricted. What kind of restrictions are there - that's up to the authors...
No, she read what I call "Nightmare Moon and Other Pony Tales" (that fancy book with golden unicorn) while in Canterlot. Only Pinkie found The Reference Guide for her, in the Ponyville Library, after Nightmare Moon attacked.
While, yes, Twilight not going back to it might be a bit of a stretch, note how totally busy Twilight was after Luna's return - settling in, the party, her new studies - it's totally believable returning to that book might have slipped her mind, especially considering she might have classified that skimming as "already read" subconsciously.
Oh, of course! And what does the story say?
Either control it tightly not to allow the land-bound forces to be swallowed, or fly outside and risk an errant gust of blizzard tears it out of their control. They did it best to their ability.
I'll just say my nudge is less so than "Celestia is an incompetent moron to send them so unprepared."
And Twilight would still hold a grudge, and fail, she'd still seek to defy Celestia the next time -all right, I'm stretching this here a lot. Gonna concede this *might* have worked. Providing that Twilight, deeply defiant at that point, would choose to believe. And... Twilight wouldn't learn a very essential lesson.
Just to show you how much you still have to learn. Think of it as good spanking. Just see that last section - Twilight learned that way far more than she would by saving the kingdom. Throughout all the episodes she's essentially a very smart kid. Here she learned to be a responsible adult. She was definitely snotty while departing. Nothing of that here and now.
Celestia nurtures Twilight to be her help, another princess - to lighten her own burden. That empty cup - that was a metaphor. Celestia is running out of strength, out of time. The burden is becoming too much. Weeping, covered by cold voice of a heartless ruler - that's where she's getting now. She needs help, and she needs it bad, but Twilight is still not ready. The Crystal Empire - it will be back in 100 years. The guards and scholars - new ones will be born and recruited. But Celestia can't allow herself to fall, and she's struggling. Teaching Twilight what it is to be a princess is the utmost priority. So, yes, at cost of losing the Crystal Empire, and at cost of these lives she choose to teach Twilight that one essential lesson, lesson of sacrificing lives of others.
She did it in cool blood, and she hates herself for that, but she realizes how essential, how irreplaceable she is in her role of "sun raiser". As much as she'd love to be a hero, to get her hooves dirty solving dangerous problems, she can't afford that risk. She must do everything - even some rather evil things - to protect herself. She's running out of time, and takes rather desperate measures to have Twilight help her. And now, Twilight still has some to learn, but she will do this willing to really help Celestia, give her mercy - not to satisfy her whim.
Because the ponies seem to be the thriving, successful, powerful nation - and not oppressed slaves under some species of carnivores. I can only imagine how much skill it takes to manage a country in a world where places like Tartarus exist for real.
and essentially various ways of saving time...
I explained this as requirement on their side to learn the plight of the Crystal Ponies, personally, not the knowledge from books but directly witnessing it. And as for the door... personally, I say this is the ultimate proof the story upon which this one is based is a bunch of horseapples. Opposing Celestia like that wouldn't cross Twilight's mind. And in that case I might admit - Celestia overestimated Twilight's power of mind...
It would be so, if Twilight were to remain that kind of Celestia's subordinate. Note how at the end of my story they are peers. Twilight knows she has much to learn still, but she understands Celestia's position. What Celestia did was outright cruel, you could easily say "evil" but Twilight finally realizes how little choice Celestia had in this case. Her cup is really running empty...
IQ tests several tasks that correlate to quite a few real-life skills, and that's the simple fact: with age you gain these. Your theory about experience is entirely wrong. What you defined is Routine, a different - bad way of learning. Experience is knowing all little caveats, interconnections, understanding, ability to improvise an efficient solution to unexpected problems because you can understand the nature of the problems from symptoms that would otherwise be misunderstood; it's knowing all the ways including the inefficient ones - in case the most efficient ones become less viable. It's the opposite to "losing the connections".
Yes, there is a physical limit.
Is there a magical limit though?
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Well actually, the elements seem a bit more restricted than what you describe right there. In the show, they've only been used against certain villains, and they seemed to take some energy from the mane six, so they couldn't be used for everything at every moment as you described, but it still seems like they could have been used against Sombra. (Darn auto-correct)
Yes, you could get away with adding restrictions, but the way you did it was more of a diabolus ex machina.
Whoops, forgot about that.
Twilight might not be as busy as you believe, I don't think the episodes show all of Twilight's life in Ponyville, just snippets.
I also disagree on "rereading book about elements" slipping her mind. Twilight makes checklists filled with all of her tasks about a month in advance, including seemingly less important things such as favors for her friends. That, and the fact that she is a bookworm and would probably enjoy reading every book in her library cover to cover, make it unlikely that fully reading a potentially important book would slip her mind.
Granting that your story was correct, and the direction of the tornado would be completely random and uncontrollable in any way, and while they couldn't allow a tornado to roll over Twilight, a field of powerful tornadoes would still be useful against Sombra. If those tornadoes drifted towards Twilight, they could move her out of the way, and if they drifted towards the city, the shield should have dissipated the tornado. I think Rainbow Dash could have informed Twilight on the physics of tornadoes if she didn't already know, assuming Twilight knew Sombra could turn a pony just by touching them. (Actually, can he do that? I don't think he can.)
I don't know if the original stories (at least, if all of them) Described Celestia as an incompetent moron. They simply showed that she had flaws, and I can't see how turning something as important as a mission to save a city into another test can be seen as anything but a flaw.
While Twilight does have her emotional outbursts, Celestia is still her beloved mentor, even if one of those outbursts is aimed at her. It likely would have been easy to interrupt an outburst by a simple flair of her wings or just by looking at Twilight a certain way. And I think the fact that Twilight was about to put her friends and several soldiers in danger would shake her almost as much as actually having her plan fail. To me it seems completely immoral to use the lives of several ponies just to make a lesson a little more realistic, and Celestia does not strike me as an immoral ruler.
Again, completely immoral.
Okay, Twilight might have more importance in the long run than several guards. But in that case she still put Twilight in an unnecessary risk. It's entirely possible she could have failed worse than she did, and Sombra could gain a very powerful slave.
And why is Celestia running out of strength and time? Where is that hinted at in canon? Yes she's looking for new powerful unicorns to mentor for some reason, but that doesn't mean she's training a replacement. Celestia running out of time is a nice plot element, but in an argument such as this, it's best to add as few things as possible to make your demonstration work.
I forgot that Tartarus existed in MLP, but still there don't seem to be very many intelligent carnivorous species, if there are any at all. The griffons are omnivores, (Gilda ate an apple,) and dragons can eat gems. There has been no history of a resource war between the ponies and some other species, excluding the changelings, and Celestia would have lost against the changelings if it weren't for Twilight Sparkle acting against everyone's insistence, including her mentor's.
Still, they could have sped things up. And I don't know... Twilight's emotional outbursts can get pretty intense. While she does hold her mentor in high regard, the stress of having to save an entire city could have affected her.
Yes, at the end of your story, Twilight does understand Celestia's position. But not before. Before that, there's no reason to trust whether Celestia simply wants to test Twilight or to save hundreds or thousands of ponies. And I wouldn't be flattered if testing me came above saving the lives of thousands of ponies, I would be pissed.
Actually, throughout our lifespans, we generally finish brain developement around adolescence, and the brain starts losing neurons after that as a result of synaptic pruning, a process that leaves the most efficient configurations possible. I don't think many scientists would agree that my theory was wrong. Your definition of experience is also somewhat true, (though "knowing all the ways, including the most inefficient ones" is less than "Knowing more than all the ways, including ones that don't actually work") but really having experience in something is just having experienced the task before, possibly several times, which still works towards my point: I don't think Celestia really has experience in battles.
Ah you caught that.
I suppose you could use magic like a giant database that you lug around with you all the time, and eventually the brain might become an IO port for that computer... *shudder*
Yeah, there's no reason you couldn't give Celestia unlimited intelligence through magic, but you kind of lose the humanity (ponanity?) of the individual after a while. And that seems more like the stuff of nightmares than a benevolent ruler.
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One more option: Celestia isn't even aware Sombra has been awakened...
Well, I did. Still - consider the alternative: both Celestia and Twilight believe Sombra is still imprisoned in ice. There is simply no reason to bring the Elements. Twilight must recharge the Heart, and that's all.
And then she forgets about a weekly assignment she's been doing for months now and for which she's in Ponyville in the first place. I could believe Twilight did read up on the Elements more - in more scholarly books, which delved on the theory of magic, on the history and such, but simply skipped what she might have thought too basic, too shallow source like the Reference Guide.
There are many, many books in the library and she could easily even delay reading that one in favor of ones she might find more interesting - or more urgent.
This is all assuming Twilight knew the consequences beforehoof. 1. Multiple tornadoes would be much harder to conjure and control in the limited time with the limited forces. Twi simply felt no reason to conjure them. 2. The Elements have visibly limited range, or Twilight and her friends wouldn't need to seek out Discord, able to blast him remotely. So, Sombra contained inside the tornado had to be brought really close - not just allowed to drift randomly. 3. If Twilight ever asked Rainbow Dash, sure, she would have informed her. 4. "Just by touch" nope. Engulfing one and exposing to a hailstorm of corrupted crystals - why not?
Nope, they didn't. The first chapter did, and it was written way before I knew there would be any other chapters. It really seemed like a standalone one-shot back then.
Celestia does what is necessary. She hates to act in immoral manner, but that doesn't mean she won't, if that's a "to be or not to be" for Equestria. In my story she's mortally afraid of "falling". She understands what disaster it would be if she allows herself to be corrupted. Still, currently she's at dead-end route, things happen and each time she must act immorally, she slips further down. So instead, she seeks a way out. She does what she does because that way she would teach Twilight the necessary lessons. No, a lesson of "Your mistakes can kill others and then you will suffer the consequences" is not something that can be learned from books. This is something Twilight must experience. So, Celestia uses the opportunity, Twilight's denial - and as result, she achieves the goal, more important than saving the Crystal Empire. She teaches Twilight what it is to be a ruler.
Now - for them together - it will be easier. Celestia will be able to climb back a bit up the slippery slope she's on currently...
Yes, she could. Desperate much?
Well, try to look at it from a perspective of a ruler millennia old. How would you feel being stuck like that? Wouldn't you tire? Wouldn't you be consumed by doubt and fear?
I believe return of Luna - and her vulnerable state, the way she had such a hard time fitting in, the way she really was on verge of another break-down - was what triggered Celestia. She finally understood Luna's position, she understood Luna is far too vulnerable to help her and return to actual rule, and she understood she may end up the same way if she doesn't take steps quickly. That's why making Twilight a princess got so important. Before that, Celestia hoped to endure until Luna returns to help her, and then it appeared Luna needs even more help than her...
Yes, I'm taking a lot of artistic liberties but this is all built around the canon. The way Celestia ruined the Grand Galloping Gala - read it any way you like, for me it's Celestia cracking.
There's a significant difference between "can" and "prefer". I don't think Gilda would find a porkchop on a pony market to steal...
Whether there have been no such war, or it isn't mentioned - or just didn't happen simply thanks to Celestia's power keeping enemies too threatened - we don't know. As for changelings, I'd say enemy masterful at subterfuge can overpower even a much more powerful opponent, so the changelings don't prove much.
Maybe - just maybe - Celestia *wanted* Twilight to oppose her? :)
She fought Sombra. She fought Discord. She fought Nightmare Moon. This much we know. How much more she fought is left to our imagination. Personally, I believe Celestia has more efficient ways of ending conflicts than just battles. (read my "Prince of Zebras" if you want to learn some), but generally - experience is primarily deep understanding of the problem, and Celestia is very experienced as a ruler.
Equinity.
Oh, yes. A slippery slope. A dangerous trend. Easy to cease to be a pony and start being a soulless magical construct. Easy to shed mortal hang-ups that limit your efficiency, easy to restrict the pesky opposing mortals...
So hard to give up a piece of that power, so hard to re-learn doing it the way mortals do, so hard to take their viewpoint as the important one. So easy to lose yourself.
You really need a peer, who's been a mortal very recently, to help you restore some of the necessary perspective!
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Hmm... I didn't think about that one. That would probably work.
Actually, that friendchip assignment may have been impossible since there weren't any friendchip problems. The part about skipping the basics and reading only the harder books I can believe though. I've probably done that a few times.
With Twilight though, I could imagine her reading her entire library a few times. though I could also imagine her skimming over certain sections she thinks she already knows. I've definitely done that a few times.
I don't remember seeing an army behind king Sombra, but maybe he can't make them immortal and just controls them. Though, if previous elements tried and failed to stop Sombra, there should have been much more information on him. But that falls into canon stuff. I remember Celestia saying that not much was actually known about the place, and that could have included Sombra.
Yup. If Celestia's struggling to keep her morals after thousands of years, then her actions do make a lot more sense. Especially the part about wanting new ponies to help her.
You never know...
Actually I was thinking the changling queen sneaking in would prove more of a point, especially since Twilight had known her from an early age. But then Chrysalis was more powerful than Celestia at that time, and if magic can also be used to boost intelligence, then that argument fails too.
I still think battles weren't that frequent compared to many other things. And Sombra has existed for a very long time as well, most of that time probably thinking of ways to fight and take back his city. Still, even this destroys the thought of Sombra being a simple enemy, which the previous story said.And none of that matters if Celestia/Twilight didn't think he was awake.
Okay, that is an awesome premise for a story.
If Celestia is trying to stop herself from becoming immoral by creating a new princess to rule beside her, and/or they don't know that Sombra is returning, then her actions do make sense. I'll ignore Twilight not reading up more on the elements even though I'm unusre of it because I'm bored, and because not knowing that Sombra was returning blows a hole in the story this one was arguing against.
Overall, congratulations, you've won this internet argument. Enjoy your friendchips while I move to a small village to study the magic of defeat.
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Oh wow, thanks :) That was very enjoyable... Too enjoyable. Let me play the devil's advocate then and argue my own points. Like, my story definitely assumes Celestia not only knew Sombra returned, she knew a very detailed sequence of events. Think "Groundhog Day" except once in 100 years. She aims for a "perfect run" and is pretty close, then - it gets blown within first minutes...
Possible or not, Twilight forgot it in her schedule and only recalled it on an off-chance of getting reminded. It's not about her succeeding or failing, it's about forgetting the assignment entirely. That's the greatest problem of checklists: tasks that you forget to put on the checklist.
And as unlikely, as rare it was in her case, it was possible.
I don't think there was any army. He'd lock his slaves away...somewhere. I like to think of him more as "impenetrable wall of mystery"; all that is known about him can be learned from damage you sustain in encounters; study his magic and his nature too thoroughly and you end up "with red horn and fur the color of ash" yourself - or worse. Try to imagine a motif from many horrors, a substance of viral corruption that turns everything it touches into itself. Now, Sombra isn't quite *as* efficient (it takes more than merely being touched to fall. More like, get engulfed and slowly shredded to bits by the hailstorm of dark crystals) but he's very mobile, very invulnerable and somewhat intelligent (though I'd rate it rather on level of a shark, than of a human.) Anyway, studying him and surviving it is pretty dangerous...
I wouldn't be so sure here. I mean, magic can be used to boost intelligence similarly to how attaching computer to your brain directly can do it. Computer chips are primarily made of silicon but even if you have a small desert worth of sand (mostly composed of silicon) that doesn't make you any smarter. It's not the raw power that boosts mind capabilities, it's its very smart application.
Although the idea that Chrysalis is what Celestia is afraid to become - one who took the "magical augmentation" a step too far - seems quite attractive.
Battles, as in army battles yes. Battles as in magically kicking butt of some monster, why not. (my personal theory on Dragonshy: older dragons are scared shitless of ponies, thanks to Celestia teaching them some lessons. Young dragons are a bit too dumb to understand the threat yet. Still, the deal goes "ponies won't learn about it, and dragons are permitted to threaten ponies as much as necessary if ponies disturb them. But hurt a pony and suffer my wrath." That's why neither Fluttershy nor any other of Mane 6 was ever in danger from the dragon (but not the avalanche!) - and the whole job was primarily meant to empower Fluttershy. The dragon really took care not to hurt any of the ponies and when confronted by Fluttershy he had no option but to yield.
As for Celestia slipping - one way or another - towards the corrupted side, that's essentially my important part of headcanon. The struggle to remain good, benevolent, graceful and loving, when going rogue would be so tempting...
Meh, not my style - anti-intellectual and a very contrived reason for the Elements not to work. Writing was fine, but it seemed hugely out of character for Celestia to let a doomed mission go ahead, buying a thousand years of misery for many ponies for the sake of teaching a bratty unicorn a lesson. It just got a bit too... theological, tying itself in knots trying to find a reason for Celestia to be right and an intelligent, rational approach to be wrong.
As for the 'punishment', I imagine the populace would demand something more substantial and public, such as stripping her of academic titles or something, if they were aware.