This chapter contains what is an attempt at an unbiased explanation of religion based on known facts on the subject (Its role in history; ETC). I acknowledge that this is a hard subject to broach/explain, and that I may easily have not succeeded in my goal. The expressed views are my own, and I ask that the more religion-inclined members of this story’s readers keep this in mind and try to not take offense at any questionable content that I may have posted.
May.
- TSC
“I’m not sure whether to call today packed or not.” I comment bitterly, leaning against the rail of my suite’s upper floor and staring out of the floor-to-ceiling glass that takes up the exterior wall of the apartment. “But it was definitely… strange as hell.”
Twilight lets out a little huff of a laugh at my statement, despite the fact that it wasn’t meant to be humorous. “That’s one way of putting it.”
I give a little shrug. “I don’t really know how to put it. Distressful comes close, I guess. I mean, come on; I had to just crush those ponies' hopes... even if it wasn't up to me anyway.”
The mare beside me nods, and we both fall silent.
Dinner has been and gone. Treated beef cuts for me, and the usual salad for the others – oh, the others stayed for dinner. It was nice, kind of like inviting friends over. The only problem is that I don’t feel like I know any of the Elements quite well enough on a personal level to say that we’re friends. I’d consider myself Twilight’s friends, but thus far I feel that the others are still just acquaintances.
Social rules are pretty stupid when you get down to it.
Anyway, now Twilight and I are the only two left. The others weren’t interested in participating in our nightly conversation, mostly because they’re a little more serious than idle chit-chat. Tonight’s going to be a real doozy. I’m going to put forward the idea of religion to Twilight, and see what Equestria has in relation to it. What’d be really interesting would be if it turns out that pony civilization has developed without any actual religious organisations, because then I could get what would essentially be an impartial view of the concept – provided that I myself portray it accurately and without a bias, which will be tough.
In fact, this is what I’d call the ‘build up’ for our conversation. It’s the part where we barely speak as I gather my thoughts. I hope Twilight isn’t doing the same, as I doubt we’ll be discussing much apart from religion. On any other night I would have assumed that she was gathering her thoughts, but at the moment my unicorn companion is looking more than a little drowsy, so maybe she isn’t.
“Only one day until the trial.” I note to the lavender mare, standing up straight and turning towards the stairs.
“How are you feeling?” Twilight asks quietly, moving to join me as we slowly make our way to the stairs.
“Nervous. Worried. Apprehensive.” I raise one hand in a gesture of helplessness. “A lot of stuff. It’s hard to label them all. You?”
“Excited.” The mare replies, before hurriedly elaborating at the prompt of my raised eyebrow. “Because Trixie has no hope of winning, and that it will feel so good to have her convicted.”
“Uh-huh.” I nod as we start to descend the staircase. Judging from the mare’s voice, I think she might be exhausted as well as excited. “I wonder what will happen once it’s over. There’s going to be a lot of therapy – mostly mental, but some physical, I guess – and… what else?”
Twilight frowns. “I don’t know. I guess after that… it’s whatever you want to do.”
I feel a little pang of emotional anxiety in my chest as I hear her words. Twilight’s right; what comes after the trial is completely up in the air. It’s only now that I consider the possibility that I’ll be separated from the Elements, be it by performances, them going home and me staying here, or me actually being sent home to Earth.
I don’t want that. I don’t want to leave them… I mean, what would I do without them? Most likely sit around and do nothing for ninety percent of the time. I’d happily move to Ponyville to prevent us being separated.
“Keys?”
“Huh?” My eyes shift to look at Twilight. “Oh, sorry. I dazed off again.”
“I was just wondering if you were okay. You looked really… sad.” She cocks her head to the side slightly. “Is something wrong?”
“I’m fine.” I place a smile on my face as I answer in a slightly too-quick fashion, even though it’s pretty much the truth. Feeling a little anxiety does not qualify me as being unwell. “Just thinking.”
“About what?” Twilight presses as we reach the bottom of the stairs. It’s the first time yet that her curiosity has irritated me.
“Just about our conversation topic.” I lie quickly, attempting to divert the conversation. I’d rather not burden the mare with my insecurities. “On that note; are you ready for it?”
“Am I!” Twilight perks up, apparently using her excitement to push her weariness to one side as she quickly trots to the entry of my suite, which is where her saddlebags are located. “I brought paper this time!”
I give a slight scoffing laugh at her words as I move myself to the nearest couch and sit down. I remember mentioning last night that she should bring paper, and I should have known she would remember. “Oh, good.”
“Yeah. At least now I’m organised.” Twilight speaks quickly as the sound of clinking glass reaches my ears “Would you like a drink of water?”
“Yes, thanks.” I roll my eyes as I look out the windows again. Judging by the noises, Twilight had been in the process of pouring me a drink anyway. “I suppose we’re going to be sitting here for a while, so why not?
“Okay then.” Twilight replies, before we both fall silent as she quickly gathers everything she needs.
I turn away from the window as twilight returns, energetically jumping up on the couch next to me and sitting down despite the obvious fatigue in her eyes. I can’t help but find it odd that she chose to sit beside me, when there’s an entire other couch where she could spread out her things better – but I’m more occupied by the fact that she’s controlling three different telekinetic fields at the moment. One contains a small stack of papers along with a feather-pen and an inkwell, another lifts the navy blue book I attempted to purchase earlier today, and the final holds two tall glasses of water from the fridge.
“Thanks.” I accept one of the glasses as Twilight moves the pair towards me, before also retrieving my book from her aura. “And thanks again.”
“You’re welcome.” Twilight replies with a brief smile, and then goes about arranging her papers and writing equipment. “Uhh… just give me a moment to get set up.”
“Sure.” I take an idle sip of my drink, before nearly doing a spit-take upon glancing at the title of my book. I manage to stop myself well enough, but even so I let out a surprised grunt as a tiny jet of water escapes my lips and lands on the coffee table.
“Keys?” Twilight’s head snaps back to me as I hurriedly swallow my mouthful of water and once again check the title of the book, coughing and spluttering the entire time. “What’s wrong?”
“Ah!” I take a sharp breath as my short coughing fit subsides. “Hah! This…” I clear my throat quickly, suddenly feeling flustered. “This, uh… ‘A Stallion’s Guide to Dating Stallions’… definitely isn’t my book.”
“Oh!” Twilight glances at the cover, a flush of embarrassment appearing on her cheeks. “I’m so sorry! That store clerk said it was the one you tried to buy!”
I gag slightly, realizing that even after being penalized by the city guard, that store clerk managed to screw with me. “Hah! No, I didn’t buy this.” A half-laugh escapes my lips as the humour behind the situation hits me. “I wouldn’t buy a book like this.”
“Ah.” Twilight nods slightly, looking at the cover again. “So – uh… you aren’t… into stallions…?” She delivers the question in a tone that is more abashed and awkward than I thought was possible.
“Oh no!” I reply quickly, raising my hands at the suggestion. “Oh, hell no – not that there’s anything wrong with that, either. What I mean is – ugh.” I blink twice, getting more and more confused. “What I mean is that I don’t like stallions. I like mares.” I speak quickly trying to dispel any illusion that I might be homophobic. “It’s… no. I’m straight.”
“Right…” Twilight nods slightly, and I look down at the book again.
“Huh. Twenty bits out the window.” I frown, and then unceremoniously toss the book onto the coffee table. “Cool.”
We both sit in an awkward silence for a couple of seconds, before I turn to Twilight. “But seriously. I don’t… you know, ‘swing that way’.”
“Yeah. Yeah.” Twilight nods. “Me neither – although some of my friends back in Ponyville are homosexual.”
“Right.” I sit back in my chair for a second, briefly contemplating the odds of any of Twilight’s ‘homosexual friends’ being some of the brony favourites. People seem keen on Lyra and Bonbon. Maybe it’s them. “Well. That was… awkward. Maybe we should just… y’know, move ahead.”
“Uhh… yeah.” Twilight quickly finishes organizing her things. “I agree.”
“Okay then.” I take a deep breath, and then release said breath in a loud exhale. “Well, tonight’s topic is a big one, so let’s start at the beginning; do you know what ‘religion’ is?”
“Religion?” Twilight raises an eyebrow, simultaneously dipping her feather pen in the inkwell and writing the word out at the top of her first page. “Uhh… no. I’m not familiar with it.”
“That doesn’t surprise me – although it means I have to take some time and explain it.” I raise one hand to the side of my head. “Okay… so, ‘religion’ is pretty much a set of beliefs that each human has regarding the creation of existence, who or what created it, what happens after we die, what moderates our existence, and what the point of life is.”
“That sounds… really serious.” Twilight raises an eyebrow, waiting for me to explain.
“People certainly take it seriously.” I frown and take a sip of water as I run through my own knowledge of religion. “There are about twenty major or ‘primary’ religions, and each one has dozens of sub-religions that were formed through ideological differences. Almost all religious beliefs follow the idea that the universe and the human race were both created by a ‘god’, or a set of gods. The general opinion is that whoever created the universe is some sort of omnipotent, omniscient being that watches everything that we do, so that when we die it can be decided what happens to us, or something to that effect.”
“What… happens?” Twilight raises one hoof to her eye and rubs it, letting out a silent yawn as her previous excitement apparently gives-way under her tiredness. “What do you mean?”
“Uhh, well… I’m not sure how many, but a few of the religions believe in the existence of a heaven and a hell. The basic idea is that if you do good things during your life, you go to heaven when you die and spend the rest of existence in luxury, and doing bad deeds means that you go to hell and are punished for the rest of existence.
“The rest of existence?” Twilight stops scribbling down notes briefly. “That seems… insanely disproportionate.”
“Yeah. Critics like to mention that the concept of infinite punishment for finite crimes is more than unfair.” I purse my lips. “But then again, the Equestria I’ve seen has some of that too – indefinite banishment to the moon and imprisonment in stone being prime examples.”
“Well… yeah…” Twilight glances at me as she begins to protest my observation. “But maybe the problem with what you’re telling me is that those who are punished die and are punished forever.”
“Yeah, yeah.” I glance out the window, not wanting to get into an argument over what makes infinite punishment unfair. “Okay, I don’t think I’m doing this right. I can’t just mention the negatives. To be fair, I should tell you some of the positives of religion.”
“Which are…?”
“Uh – okay, let me start from the beginning.” I take a deep breath. “Almost all religions believe that there is at least one god, and some of them believe that there multiple ones. Some percentage – I’m not sure how many – also believe that humans are rewarded or punished forever once they die, based on their actions.”
“Right. I have all that.” Twilight glances at what she’s written so far.
“Yeah.” I look over the mare’s notes – which are closer to being a transcript of the facts I’ve stated so far. The one thing I notice is that she’s so tired that the handwriting is barely legible. “Okay, one of the biggest upsides to religion is its teachings. All religions normally teach their followers to be kind to others and do the right thing. The problem is that many people are religiously intolerant, and will openly disparage those of a different belief to them.”
“Uh-huh… and… uh, what’s your religion?” Twilight glances up at me, her eyes questioning me. “What do you believe?”
“Technically, I don’t have a religion.” I reply stoutly. “I’m what is referred to as an ‘Atheist’. We’re the people who believe that there are no deities, and instead follow what we see as having been proven by science-”
“Wait.” Twilight suddenly interrupts me, before interrupting herself with a yawn. “Uh – if religions have been proven wrong by science, why do people follow them?”
“Well, technically science hasn’t proved any the many religions wrong. It’s proved parts of their stories wrong, but it’s almost impossible to prove that there is no god, due to the fact that god has been described as operating outside our plane of existence. Therefore, no matter what proof you throw up the religious can always say that god still exists, or that it was part of his plan, or that we can never understand his works.”
“This sounds very complicated.” Twilight comments in a low mutter.
“It really is, and I don’t think I’m explaining it right.” I sigh. “Religion is a huge part of human culture. I should’ve realized that I’d screw up at trying to convey it fairly. It’s next to impossible to be impartial and unbiased on something you are involved with, and there’s actually a lot of subject matter to cover.”
I glance at Twilight, who is yawning again. Now I’m definite that she didn’t sleep last night – and possibly the night before that. “And… no offense, but you don’t really seem in the best shape for a discussion like this. When’d you last actually sleep?”
“Sleep?” Twilight looks down at her notes. “Uhh… it wasn’t last night… and… was it the night before that? Ugh, I… I can’t remember.”
“Well, you look… pretty tired.” I manage to refrain from making a comment about her being hit by a train. In all honesty, the mare’s looking exhausted, and a quick glance at her writings shows that the scribbles are now completely illegible. I literally can’t understand them, even though they’re just the transcript of my terrible explanations. “Okay, really tired. I don’t think you’re in any shape for this kind of discussion.”
Truth-be-told, I’m not feeling overly alert either. I long for the day when going out into the city and pretty much just walking around and talking doesn’t leave me feeling drained, but at the moment I feel about ready to go to bed myself. Twilight’s yawning isn’t helping either.
“What? No…” Twilight glances down at her papers. “I’m fine, just… please don’t stop talking.”
“Don’t stop…” I raise an eyebrow.
“Don’t stop talking. I want you to keep talking.” Twilight’s voice drops to a mutter as her eyelids droop, before she suddenly wrenches them open again. “I’m having fun.”
I shake my head at the mare. “You’re going to be asleep in a couple of minutes. You know that, right?”
“No… no…” Twilight’s quill drops to her paper. “I’m fine… just… talking…”
I let out a little sigh. “You’re hopeless. Okay, gi’me a second.” My almost constantly present frown deepens as I think over what to say next. Like I said; there’s a lot to talk about.
“Okay, so the many religions have good intentions. They teach their followers to love, tolerate, and to just be better people as a whole. They don’t always succeed at this, and it’s widely acknowledged that religious teachings and disagreements have been the cause of at least half of humanities’ wars. There’s also the issue that some people believe in religious teachings, but are still not kind to many of their fellow man. That, however, is a failing of the people themselves, and not the religion.
“One of my own big problems with religion is how they reject proven modern science and facts in favour of their own ancient stories. Another issue is that…” I glance at Twilight, only to see that she’s failed in her attempts to stay awake, and is now snoring quietly. “…Oh… well, I was right.”
The lavender mare’s head is folded over her forehooves, placing her in a cat-like sleeping position and creating an adorable image the likes of which I haven’t seen since I was back at home and actually watching the show. Luckily, she’s managed to avoid knocking over her inkwell, which I carefully relocate to the coffee table.
I feel vaguely creepy, just sitting here and watching Twilight sleep. I’d actually get up and move if it wasn’t for one rather small thing – and it really is small. Simply put, I’m just a little curious in the ponies’ body structure. The show and my time here have both shown that there’s a huge difference between Equestrian and Earth equines when body structure is involved – such as the high amounts of flexibility in the limbs of Equestrian ponies. Their faces are far more human-like, instead of being… well, horse-faced, and of course I won’t even mention their strange coats, cutie-marks, sentience and anthropomorphism.
Earth horses normally sleep standing-up, as I recall, although they require at least one hour of lying down during their rest every day to achieve the necessary amount of REM-sleep for a healthy sleep cycle. (As an interesting note, it was actually My Little Pony that triggered me finding that out.)
Equestrian ponies, on the other hand, seem to spend most – if no all – of their sleep lying down. That might be because they’re not skittish and don’t fear predators, or maybe it’s related to another matter entire, which I haven’t really looked at until now: It’s about time that I stopped comparing the inhabitants of Equestria to Earth horses and ponies. It’s glaringly obvious that the only attributes they share are their body structures and species names.
Aside from that, the two races couldn't be more different. It’s like comparing humans to monkeys. The differences are so huge that it’s borderline offensive. The fact of the matter is that Equestrian ponies aren’t ‘animals’, by the human definition – the human definition being that an animal is sexually reproducing creature that does not have the faculties for cognitive thought – although all organic creatures are technically considered animals. It’s not a hard truth to accept, and is in fact a very easy conclusion to draw.
It’s a simple as that. Equestrian ponies are related to Earth ponies in the same way that humans are related to monkeys and apes; abstractly, with eons of evolutionary distance between them. The fact of the matter is that I need to stop viewing them as being related to unintelligent animals, because they just plain aren’t.
I smile slightly, easing myself up off the couch and quietly making my way towards the stairs. It’s hard to put into words, but I feel strangely ‘happier’ after having cleared that up with myself. Redefining my friends as being distanced from the unintelligent creatures on Earth somehow makes me feel like I’ve progressed in our understanding of each other, even if this is an identification that only I am aware of.
Also, I suppose me and Twilight will need to reschedule our religion discussion for when she’s finished resting-up – although with how terrible a job I’ve done at explaining it, it may be a better idea to simply drop the matter entirely before I imprint a biased opinion on Twilight. It was a stupid idea for me to think I could provide an impartial explanation of the system when I’m a partaker of it – and an opinionated one at that. I guess that’s another tally point for the ‘Keys is a dumbass’ rule. When Twilight get’s up I’ll have to ask her to disregard everything I said, and explain to her exactly why I think the information I’ve given her is unreliable.
I give a little sigh as I reach the top of the stairs and move to the entry to my bedroom. I’ll need to find some blankets and a pillow for Twilight, which will most likely be in one of the closets in my room.
Five minutes of searching a quiet muttering later, I emerge from my newly partially-ransacked room – now laden down with both the duvet-pillows from my bed and a small pile of spare blankets – and begin the return trip to the couch downstairs. My pace is still far too slow for my liking, and I’d probably be moving faster if I was still using my cane around the suite, but I think I’ll get in better shape if I stop relying on the cane in an enclosed space like this. Going out to the city is a different story, though.
“Hmm…” I hum discontentedly to myself as I start down the top of the stairs. The fact that a few blankets and a pair of pillows feel notably heavy to me is more than a little irritating. Carrying them feels about as taxing as carrying three full grocery bags would have felt before my enslavement. That’s a huge change in ability, and it still really bothers me… although I will admit that it’s much better than how I was on the first day of freedom, when I could barely even walk on my own – much less lift something. It’s progress, but it’s slow… and as a human, I find that infuriating. I’d consider myself to be moderately patient, but going this long and still being so feeble is downright infuriating to the point that I grind my teeth every time I think of the subject. My dentist would throw a fit, but he’s just another name on a very long list of people I’m probably never going to see again.
I yawn as I arrive at the bottom of the stairs, pushing my many thoughts on my physical condition to the side as I all-but hobble back to the couch.
My burden is unloaded onto the carpet with a quiet ‘oof’, before I busy myself slowly retrieving Twilight’s many papers and quills from around her sleeping form and relocating them to the coffee table with the embarrassing ‘Stallion’s Guide’ book and her inkwell.
With that done, I carefully lift up one of the blankets and unfold it, before draping it over Twilight’s sleeping form. After that, I gently lift the mare’s head with one hand and slide the duvet-pillow in between it and her hooves. The action causes the lavender mare to stir, but I manage to finish before she awakens.
Finished, I step back and frown, now feeling faintly irritated that I brought so much down and used so little. Now I need to trek all the way up those damn stairs just so that I can go to bed myself.
With a little grumbling under my breath, I scoop up the unused duvet-pillow and blankets, and pause to glare at the stairs for a couple of seconds. I am so sick of using stairs all the time.
Of course that’s when I realize that I don’t need to go back upstairs, because I have everything I need to go to sleep right in front of me. Sure, it won’t be as comfortable as the double-bed upstairs, but I literally can’t be screwed going up those stairs again.
I glance at the upper level of the suite, and then turn my gaze to the vacant couch opposite Twilight. I’m not opposed to taking convenience over comfort lately – especially when flights of stairs are involved – so I suppose I might as well just sleep down here.
“Mmm…” I hum discontentedly as I move around the coffee table to drop the remaining pillow on the couch opposite Twilight and the blankets on the floor. “Well, why not?”
I sit down on the couch, swinging my legs up the floor and curl up as I drop my head to the pillow, before reaching out, and retrieving the topmost blanket from the pile.
With that done, I roll onto my side so that I’m facing into the couch-back. I didn’t normally find it easy to fall asleep quickly back on Earth, but nowadays I’ve been finding myself falling asleep in the middle of the day. It’s so easy, it’s actually a little inconvenient.
Even now, I’m already feeling a little ‘disconnected’ from my body. I’m in that hazy, drowsy zone before sleep where realizing you’re in it normally yanks you back to being alert. (Oddly enough, I’m still falling asleep.)
I exhale at length through my nostrils as my eyes flitter close, only having one thought before I fall into a proper, restful sleep.
‘Twilight sure was acting weird… even for someone as tired as her.’
Author's Note:
Okay, believe it or not, the huge delay on this chapter was completely unrelated to Those Who Came Before. It was actually due to a huge amount of writer's block, and me trying to make sure that the subject matter was as a bit less offensive than it could be. As you may have guessed, I had it play out the way it did to avoid having Twilight pass judgement on the matter, due to the fact that it wouldn't be a truly impartial decision.
Eh. Whatever. Let the inevitable shit-storm ensue.
Oh, and I'm a little worried that parts of this chapter might be incoherent. I'm not sure why, but If I'm right, please tell me.
P.S; Awkward homosexuality-related conversation FTW. I'm surprised that no-one picked up on the fact that Keys only saw the book through a mirror in the last chapter.
EDIT: Would someone care to explain why this is only in slot eight instead of seven? (And also why the updated story that's for some reason beating it only has just over half the views?) Is it because said story has just completed?
I'm worried this chapter will not end well for you in the comments section.
1768411 Did you not read my Author's Note? I'm aware that religion is a BIG issue for many people, even though it doesn't need to be. My challenge is this: Let's try and be intelligent, and civil with the following discussions. Nobody's opinion will be changed, of course, but we can at least try and get away from this chapter without having a screaming match in the process.
A civil conversation on religion. That'd be an internet first.
1768419
Hence why I said I worry for you. I assure you that I read the author's note.
KeysxTwilight OTP
Woohoo!
New Chapter!
So ive read it, and i can honestly (imo) say that its a fairly good description of what religion is for us humans, i myself consider myself an atheist but im born and baptized into christianity, so i know its hard try to explain it to someone who havent gotten into it yet. I can also say that you were really good to not note a Specific religion, since that will surely make all shit hit the fan.
Keep up the good work!
I think you gave a quite even handed explanation, probably the fairest one I've ever heard.
1768389 article two just updated, dragged your viewers away
Hah! As much as that clerk is a racist jerk, he's also a really persistent one. Credit(?) where credit is due.
This chapter was the most impartial attempt at explaining the phenomenon of religion I've ever encountered in any MLP fanfic, ever. And even then Keys worried he might not've done the field justice. That was a nice change from the norm.
Also: Dammit, Keys - now you've gone and destroyed Twilight's xenophilic yaoi fantasies! You're messing up all her fanfics about you and Big Macintosh!
Because we all know there are already ponies writing steamy stories à la "the man from beyond; captive of a madmare" and the like. It's only a matter of time.
Hmm, for one I'm not offended by keys being a bit awkward with the explanation, as he isn't exactly well equipped to explain it. I like the fact that he admits that science didn't fully discredit religion, but he should have known this little factoid:
Even with irrefutable proof, it still won't change much. Why? Because Religion basis is of Faith.
Nice chapter, though. Update! Yay!
As stated above, your explanation was fairly unbiased and that's pretty much the most someone can hope for.
The plot thickens! And I know exactly what's up with Twilight, too! I can't wait to see her try to talk her way out of this one...
I have to say you did really good with this chapter, keep up the good work man!
Hold a sec, isnt twilight not supposed to be sleepy? Didn't keys make her promise to get some sleep the night before they went out on the town? Either she didn't sleep at all or she didn't stay asleep long enough to have gotten much rest. either way, bad twily! GO SLEEP!!!
>> The Great Derpsby HOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHOTHTOHTOHTOHTOHTOHTOHOTHTOHTOHTOHTOHTOTHOTHOTHot. I think it should be a law that all sex-related stories about Keys needs to have some sort of involvement with Big Macintosh.
Twilight and Keys
Sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
1768389
I dont care and hopefully every other pony will love and tolearte too? you werent trying to actively go against anyon and well my respose was new chapter! i thought it was a quiet easy going and kinda sweet chapter? cant wait for more!
1768389 You say its hard to be unbiased, but that is because if you simply stated the facts it still comes across as unbiased because so many cons outweigh the pros. It's impossible to sound unbiased because religion isn't based around fact, it's based around what people want to be true. You can't compare the two logically, because religion isn't about logic; religion is about faith.
P.S yay i learned how to use semi-colons.
1768389 You say its hard to be unbiased, but that is because if you simply stated the facts it still comes across as unbiased because so many cons outweigh the pros. It's impossible to sound unbiased because religion isn't based around fact, it's based around what people want to be true. You can't compare the two logically, because religion isn't about logic; religion is about faith. But as long as it is used for good, there is nothing wrong with faith. Without faith, what reason do we have to be good?
P.S yay i learned how to use semi-colons.
I believe you gave an accurate description on religion. But don't forget, many of the main religions only count your beliefs. You could be the best guy in the world, but if you don't believe in that god you go to hell.
I'm a litle upset that you left out Bhuddism, you didn't mention anything about a religion with no god.
Not a bad job at speaking on religion without offending. Your description of religion was so even and unbiased as to almost feel equivalent to eating plain white bread toast for breakfast. Not to say I was not entertained, because I really did enjoy the chapter. Its more like I felt you had a few meters left you could have tread before crossing that line that would create said predicted shit-storm.
But this will do, and I really am happy to finally see that romantic sub-plot start to show itself. I've been a sucker for pony romance stories since I've joined this community. That aside it should be said that you are one of the more delightful authors on this site, and you really take time to connect with your reader base and show general concern for them regarding your works. So it's my belief that because of this, no one would really give you any crap even if you did overstep some taboo or boundary on subjects of this nature. I know you'd probably not want to risk it, but I think you'll find most of your reader base will not only cut you slack for touching on risky subjects, but support and encourage your endeavors. Though I guess I shouldn't attempt to speak for everyone, heh. dl.dropbox.com/u/31471793/FiMFiction/emoticons/misc_Lyra_dealwithit.png
Well, I'm not offended, I think you did as good a job explaining the basics to Twi as you could've, considering that she has no concept of religion. I'm certainly in no position to judge you, being a lapsed Catholic myself. Everything you said is true, no embellishing, or ranting or any strawmen arguments about religious belief. One thing that really bothers me when the subject of religion is brought up is that so many people seem to have a superficial understanding of what all major religions teach and practice. I've seen people quote the Monty Python joke about Catholics believing "every sperm is sacred" as if it were actual Catholic doctrine!
Several of my favorite authors are atheists, like Terry Pratchett, Douglas Adams, Joss Whedon and Neal Stephenson to name a few, even though I personally believe in the existence of God. I'd like to point out to everyone that you can enjoy an author's work even if you don't share their beliefs or disagree with them.
It's depressing that you actually need to write that fore-word.
Good chapter either way.
1768714 your username makes that deliciously ironic.
Either way, Keys knows he was making a bad attempt at describing it, so you shouldn't be disappointed about anything.
>Almost all religions believe that there is at least one god, and some of them believe that there multiple ones.
you got that turned around
what i mean is, that there is far more religions with more than one god than there is with one.
I find it amusing that many atheists believe that religion has been the cause for so many wars. It has not. The vast majority, including the Crusades, have been started in the pursuit of one the "big two" (if not both), wealth and power. Back in the day you did not have nationalism, so rulers used the biggest unifier they had to rally the populace, religion.
It, as its cousin nationalism, is nothing more then the excuse.
This however, is not to say that true believing individuals, groups, and rulers have not committed terrible, terrible deeds in the name of religion. The same way that true believing individuals, groups, and rulers of Atheists, such as the national socialists and the communists, have committed the same terrible deeds.
Just my two cents.
Ah religion, I still fluctuate between non-belief and partial belief. Honestly, no one is truly equipped to explain it, you'd have to be a weird combination of an objective scientist (or something heavily logic invested) heavily vested in every single religion (scientist-chaplain-priest-mujtahid-rabbi-yogi-scientology official etc.), yet detached enough to explain their belief objectively or better yet multiple people from multiple religions who are willing to accept that they'll have their beliefs shat on and try to explain from their pov what it means to them while the others not part of their religion explain what they believe it is objectively.
But that's impossible, as you would likely go insane from trying to resolve the different belief systems granular nuances and some of the more bigger nuances. It would end up being a screaming match of either different papers proclaiming different things existing in isolation solely talking about the authors' religion or simply a screaming match if there were, but that's not the point.
The point is to believe without any evidence (faith) according to values you like in a religion (and following it) or accepting what religion you're (likely) naturalized into by your care givers trying to find evidence for miracles really defeats the whole point of religion and is like attempting to marry science into it (i'm not sure how new or old that idea is) which is fine by itself but really in my opinion defeats the point of it.
Again, no one is really qualified to explain all religions...ever there's simply too many to explain without either offending one religion (or a bunch) or not providing enough description. By looking at the historical route of religion you took a rather more objective path, it still has its flaws no doubt but is objective enough for the purposes of the story and what Keys could feasibly know. Nice job! (As always posts, especially mine, are subjective; objectivity is very hard to come by)
Love it!
I think that was a fair, relativley unbiased description of a religious system. I need to give you props for him not arguing his own case as an aethiest
"The fact of the matter is that Equestrian ponies aren’t ‘animals’, by the human definition – the human definition being that an animal is sexually reproducing creature that does not have the faculties for cognitive thought – although all organic creatures are technically considered animals. It’s not a hard truth to accept, and is in fact a very easy conclusion to draw."
I disagree with your definition of animals. "Cognition is a group of mental processes that includes attention, memory, producing and understanding language, learning, reasoning, problem solving, and decision making." as described by Wikipedia. My cat does all of those things, and you go on to state that humans are technically animals, implying that humans are not capable of cognitive thought.
My second issue is the implication that science has only disproved religious assertions, when in fact there is a mixed bag of proven and unproven parts. I hold up, as evidence, the documentary The Exodus Decoded, which you can find here. The Exodus is a chronicle of the Old Testament, the core of Judaism and the origin of both Islam and Christianity. It speaks of the slavery of the Israelites by the Egyptians, and how Moses asked the Pharaoh to let his people go. The Pharaoh refused, and God sent ten plagues to punish him.
The plagues are as follows:
1. The water of the Nile turned to blood.
2. The frogs swarmed the city.
3. Lice and/or gnats (the old Hebrew word is the same for both) swarmed everywhere.
4. Flies swarmed everywhere.
5. An epidemic of sickness hit the livestock.
6. The people got awful boils.
7. A strange hail, of fire and ice, fell.
8. A locust swarm ate everything.
9. Darkness fell, darkness that could be felt.
10. The firstborn sons of all the Egyptians died.
And then, the final miracle: the Pharaoh ordered the Israelites to get out, but changed his mind after they left, and chased them. Moses parted the sea, so that his people could escape, and once the Egyptians were on the land bridge, the waters came crashing back, and drowned them all.
To any rational person, this all seems a rather gory fairy tale. But if we start at lake Nyos, in Cameroon, we can see
3.bp.blogspot.com/-tCyPcPzt5Gw/UAmv7iLPgtI/AAAAAAAAGZo/LBfnCJRYphU/s640/Lake+Nyos+after.jpg
volcanic gases released iron into the water, making it look (and probably taste) like blood. And logically, what would happen after that? It would eat up all of the oxygen in the water, making the frogs flee (2), the fish rot, leading to insects (3+4), and sickness (5). Back at lake Nyos, villagers suffered from terrible blisters and boils (6). (Only image search if you have a strong stomach.) And of course, if there's volcanic activity, there must have been a volcanic eruption, hence the burning ash cloud that fell from the sky like rain (7), which disrupted the natural migration of the locust swarms by cooling the temperature, causing them to land early (8) and eventually blocking out the sun (9). And finally, we return to lake Nyos, where the lake, supersaturated with CO2, released its gas burden into the atmosphere, killing thousands. The low-to-the-ground gas would have passed by the Israelites, who were awake and up at Passover, but killed all of the privileged firstborn Egyptian sons, sleeping in special beds, unlike their brothers and sisters who had to sleep in barns and the like, according to Egyptian custom.
And the last, and greatest miracle? All of this volcanic activity would have triggered an earthquake storm along the boundary of the African and European tectonic plates, dislodging the accretionary wedge (that's the big pile of dirt and rocks that fill the space between a subducting and subducted plate) taking the weight off of the upper plate, and allowing it to rise a meter or two. This caused water to flow to low-lying areas, which of course opened up land that had previously been underwater. But, of course, when the rubble had settled, the plate slid back to its previous position, causing a tsunami to rush back to its former place, drowning the following Egyptians.
You don't have to accept that God did it, but we have all the proof that, as a historical chronicle, it did happen.
Other than those two things, and my own probably-not-as-good-as-the-source-material ramblings, it looks good to me, though I question why you had to bring it up in the first place. If Twilight Sparkle doesn't even know what religion is, then why bring it up at all?
I'm surprised you didn't mention Agnostics.
Yay, Keys is right, he is terrible at explaining religion.
...Mainly since he didn't explain the base, neutral concept, its purpose and applications.
Which is IC for Keys I think at this point.
Also, Obligatory I am offended. dl.dropbox.com/u/31471793/FiMFiction/Twilight_Sparkle_lolface.png
(Not really.)
I'm a Deist that enjoys Christmas and Thanksgiving, so meh. Religion can stay over in their high-ceiling'd rooms, and I'll pray for aide when I'm alone in the dark. That's about as religious as I get.
Though I'm scratching my head at the relevance of religion in this story, really. Is he just picking topics to address Twilight with as a part of her researching humans project? So close to the trial, too? You'd think they'd want him to relax and such, but he does feel pretty guilty about being a bump on a log, so I dunno.
1768389
1768411
1. Comments at top predicting shitstorm in comments below.
2. Scroll down to find no shitstorm, only protestations at definition of animal and shouts of Twilight/keys OTP or BM/keys OTP.
3. ????
4. PROFIT!!!
1769246
I can't comment on your Exodus proof, specifically, except to note that a stagnant lake is a very different beast compared to an extremely large river that cyclically floods. But assuming I buy that a perfect magnitude earthquake happened, with incredibly unlikely timing, that still doesn't address the fact that there are no independent records of widespread slavery of Semites in Egypt.
In short: do you have better reasoning than "plausibility means that passage has to be true"? Especially when the first books within the bible to mention Jesus were compiled over one hundred years after his death, and therefore almost exclusively hearsay, making progressively more outlandish claims as they were written up to five hundred years later.
Besides, I just can't believe in a kind and loving god or Jesus, when Jesus himself said that he had come to earth to split families, and that all believers must love him more than their loved ones and children, or they are not worthy of him. Because he loves us that much. No joke, start at Matthew 10:34. Yeah, Jesus forgives all sins except disbelief, and loving your family more than a wandering preacher/carpenter who died 2000 years ago.
Edit: oh, right, about that "darkness that could be felt" thing, and your thought that it could block out the sun? Yeah, no. There would be huge amounts of records documenting such a thing, because when volcanoes explode on a scale that could blot out all light in a region, they darken the sky worldwide for years, and they also kill everything nearby, while preserving the local culture, as occurred at Pompeii and Krakatoa.
1768389
If anything man your reluctance to really get into the issue feels like you were too afraid to even bring it up in the first place. Let me ask you something, does the inclusion of the explanation of religion in this chapter have any bearing on the events of the story?
The reason i ask is simply because it really didn't seem like it. I didn't really feel any connection to the rest of the events in the story. The subject of their talk in this chapter could literally have been anything. Frankly what you said about religion in this chapter was far less offensive than the trepidation with witch you approached the subject. If your going to talk about religion in a fic, don't be scared of it. Yeah people are passionate about their faiths and they can get crazy, but if your going to do it then DO IT.
There is a saying for designers, but i like to think it applies to pretty much everything, writing included.
"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
De Saint-Exupery, Antoine
I could go full autist and nitpick keys' statements on atheism and religion, but what i know and some people might not remember is that this is a story, not a paper, not a real discussion.
Whatever the character says is only truth to him, it's character development, not a statement of fact, not even the author's opinion.
Is it just me or is Twi crushing?
1768888
Yes, actually, my username has a background story, so please don't relate my name with religion.
Heh, I have my opinion whether you like it or not, you're basically asking me to not feel a feeling, which in this case, is impossible, even though he was kind of disappointed about the way he described religion, that doesn't mean that he couldn't have done a better job.
1769945
I don´t see why religion shouldn´t be included in this story, like any other common topic in a world where magic, godlike entities and spirits of chaos are real. Also, I personally disagree with the concept of "respect the beliefs of others, religious or not"; beliefs, like any other idea, shouldn´t be "respected" but discussed, and is not anybody fault religion cannot be backup by facts but only by faith. PEOPLE are the one who must be respected, The humans rights say nothing about respect religious beliefs, only not discriminate people because their beliefs.
This article pretty sums my opinion.
Anyway, I would be more interested in Equestria view on mythology, considering they are governed by physical Goddesses of the Sun and the Moon. Do they belief, or have proofs, of an afterlife? What about Tartarus?
1768389
Ah religion one of the cores of humanity be it secular or non it sure has had quite the impact on human history good and ill. That aside i could not help but think of two things: one, of this song while reading the religion discussion
two: to quote master uthar from korriban in kotor for a moment, " A diplomatic answer, if not the core of the matter." Your approach to the subject was good but i cant help but agree with Radon18, why include something if a) its relation to the story is to fill dead air or b) you have no intention of really going after it. Lots of writers talk about heated topics and get called out by people all the time and some of them even suffer for it. To quote a great man, "You can't please everyone all the time." Take chances with what you write, at the very least you brought people out of their comfort zones. While it's important to avoid conflict (hence your author's note at the start), you can at the very least use the fact that Keyes is speaking to an unbiased mind to his advantage. He could actually tell Twilight both sides of the issue without the fear of offending her. If he wanted to ease into it or give her a better understanding he could pose the question of what she thinks of the princesses and any lore surrounding them. That way she has some context of what he's trying to describe without jumping directly into the deep end. Lastly, Keyes should probably approach his future discussions from the mind set of him=teacher/ sage/ person with foreign knowledge of things that might interest intellectually driven ponies. Might help his a bit, after all what's the worse Twilight can do aside from going Rapidash on him?
1770313
Oh im totally for having religion discussed and even as a major/minor part of any fic, in fact i have my own HiE where thats one of the defining things about the main character.
I think you misunderstood my comment. I merely said that in this particular fic the subject of religion has no tie in with the events of the rest of the story. Like if the subject had come up before, maybe even with something as mundane as Keys making a reference or joke no one understood the author could have tied this chapter in quite well. Its just that the chapter subject feels apart from the rest of the story because there has been no lead up to it.
The other part of my comment was saying that if your going to talk about religion in your fic, don't be timid about it and really talk about it, and I almost could see the author picking his way through the egg shells as i read this.
1770304
He was supposed to have described it badly. So to complain that he didn't describe what you wanted him to doesn't make sense.
1770816
I just stated my opinion, nothing else, if you're not up for it or finds the way I think stupid, then just ignore it, you won't get anything out of me anyways
1768642 Somehow, I could see Dash doing that, and getting dagger-glares from everypony else in hearing, and Keys trying to laugh it off, and failing badly. I may be reading (Heh) too much into the story, but I have the impression he's got more than "just friends" feelings for her.
That's the mark of a good author, when you have the readers guessing at every turn. And we can't turn to the last chapter to find out, either.
I am a christian. I can accept your opionion. I disagree with most of what you said about religion but that is not why we are here. If you would like to hear why I disagree please msg me. I will not respond to hate. have a nice day.
1768921 I think you basically repeated what he said. Christianity (most) versus the rest (some).
My opinion: In show-canon, religion is kept out of the MLP universe because introducing *any* religion would drive away *all* the others. So you gain one viewer/consumer while driving away a hundred, not a good trade-off for a company who sells little plastic ponies with comb-able manes.
In head-canon, the MLP universe is without Original Sin, which makes it very much the "God Lite" of the world, or slightly more in the Agnostic sense than the Atheist sense (i.e. there is a overwhelming universal god, but she's not really that concerned about us, we are less like children to her, than third cousins, twice removed by marriage.) Celestia and Luna know they have limitations, and try to get their little ponies to take more control of their own lives, and not to 'Run to mama' every time there's a dimensional crack in the universe or some creature from Tartarus gets loose. They care, but they want their ponies to succeed on their own because they care. In a way, they're a lot like parents. (In one of my fics, Luna responds to the surprise that the Alicorns are Theists with the comment, "Of course, did you think it was turtles all the way down and up?")
1770860
“So – uh… you aren’t… into stallions…?”
“What I mean is that I don’t like stallions. I like mares.”
“But seriously. I don’t… you know, ‘swing that way’.”
“Yeah. Yeah.” Twilight nods. “Me neither. Notice how I'm pointing this out even though i don't have to, hmmmm? Wink wink?"
I butchered the context of your story, Sentient Cloud, and it's too late to stop me
As a recovering Mormon, I found Keys' explanation more even-handed than many. He's right about trying to explain religion in toto. You can't. There's so much in Christianity alone it would take years, and the non-christian ones? Has he been exposed to many? Any?
All in all, a good beginning, but I have to wonder (along with a few others - you know who you are) if it was really necessary.
And I think Twilight got more than she let on; her religion (if you can call it that) is plainly obvious to everyone: The Princesses are there, real and demonstrably caring, like any of the older Pagan Gods and Goddesses. Who needs proof or faith when you can talk to them? By appointment only, of course, but still...