No Friends Here
While Spike waited from a safe spot not far from the border, Thorax made his way back into the Crystal Empire while disguised as a guard. As they knew it would, the changeling in disguise found the border actively guarded with patrols, enough that there really wasn’t any way to slip over it without being seen by one. But Thorax quickly found a way to approach the border in such a way that it would appear natural for an apparent member of the guard to be coming from. He just about panicked when one of them stopped him anyway, though.
“Coming back from patrol?” the unicorn guard that stopped him asked matter-of-factly.
“Yes,” Thorax responded in what he hoped was the correct tone of voice for a guard. “Nothing to report,” he then added.
“Not surprised,” the guard said with a faint grin but then took a step back and charged his horn with a spell. “I’ll just cast that changeling detection spell Sunburst devised on you real quick like we’re supposed to and then I’ll let you go.”
Balani devoveo, Thorax cursed in his mind as he nearly jumped in shock at this pronouncement, unaware the crystal ponies had come up with such a spell, as they had nothing like it before. “Oh, uh…” he began as he sought some way out of this without revealing who and what he was or raising any suspicions against himself.
He wasn’t fast enough though, and the unicorn cast his spell anyway. Thorax immediately felt the spell’s magic tug on his disguise, but to the changeling’s surprise, the spell wasn’t nearly powerful enough to have much chance of breaking it. He also noticed the spell was heavily laced with love energy, and Thorax realized the crystal ponies had been paying closer attention than he realized when they last saw him lose his disguise, overwhelmed by the love surrounding Princess Flurry Heart, and put two with two in making a spell they figured would recreate the effect. What they clearly hadn’t realized was that it wasn’t so much the love energy that broke Thorax’s disguise before, but rather the high amount of it made him lose his concentration by accident, instinct leading him to be more interested in feeding than keeping disguised. The spell didn’t even come close to meeting the same sort of levels of emotive energy and thus was sorely underpowered as a changeling detection spell to the point it just wouldn’t work.
But the guard clearly didn’t know that because after casting the spell and seeing Thorax still disguised and largely unfazed by it, he was satisfied and let Thorax proceed. And to the changeling’s relief, he was able to slip the rest of the way into the city without further protest. The rest of the guards all thought he was one of them and let him on through without comment. By a fluke of luck, Thorax found he was still safe from detection and still in position to slip in easily without being detected. He decided not to question it and instead make use of it.
The part he was most worried about out of the way then, Thorax quickly made his way for the towering Crystal Castle placed in the middle of the city. Aiding in his infiltration, he passed very few ponies along the way, and those that he did were either preoccupied with other things, or seemed too sullen to take much note about him. In fact there seemed to be a sullen air hanging around the whole city. Sniffing the air, Thorax found that the sweet smell of love and other positive emotions that had first drawn him here had even decreased somewhat since the last time he was inside the city. Wanting to keep focused on the task at hoof though, he didn’t permit himself too much time to ponder the matter further.
Soon he was slipping inside the castle, and again, the guards stationed at the entrance let him enter without more than a silent nod of greeting in response. They suspected nothing. Inside, the castle was still at high alert, but had otherwise settled into a sense of uneasy calm, enough that the inhabitants were trying to settle back into the normal routine. There seemed to be guards stationed at nearly every doorway now, but they were such a common sight in the crystalline hallways that none of them found anything odd about there being one extra in their midst. Thorax almost thought he should be embarrassed for them as he proceeded to pull the wool over the crystal ponies yet again, but Thorax found he couldn’t take much joy in what he was doing. He wished he didn’t have to sneak around like this at all.
Either way, he didn’t want to push his luck and hurried onward. The first thing he did was find the nearest guard post and stop there to retrieve a set of saddlebags, with the idea of using it to discreetly carry the things he was here to collect, as well as anything else useful he might find. Then he proceeded for the guest room Spike had been staying in up until his banishment, relying on his memory of its location from when Spike had shown him the room while disguised as Crystal Hoof before being discovered, as well as some refresher directions Spike had given him before he had made for the city. He was dreadfully afraid he was going to get lost and waste precious time trying to find the room, adding to the risk that he might be discovered, but was relieved to find that he was still able to find the room without problem on his first try.
Another fear he had was that he would find the room already cleared out of Spike’s belongings, confiscated on the grounds of them being the belongings of an exile, but he found the room untouched and everything still where Spike had left it. As such, he was able to find Spike’s train pass and the bag of disguises right where the dragon had told him they would be. He stuffed them all into the saddlebags on his back then took the time to search for anything else of Spike’s that they might want or need before going. But as Spike had simply been a guest staying over and not a permanent resident, there was naturally little else to find. However Thorax did find a simple cloak in the closest however that probably had been left by a previous occupant as it was clearly too large to be Spike’s. On a whim Thorax decided to take it too, hoping nopony would miss it.
Deciding he had gotten everything he needed and getting antsy at staying this long inside a city he wasn’t authorized to set hoof in unaccompanied, Thorax then proceeded to leave, deciding to exit by taking a slightly different route so to avoid being seen by the same pony more than once, in case said pony noticed something amiss. Along the way, he passed another room with the door open ajar. He at first gave it only a passing glance and would’ve walked right on past it, but he spied something inside that made him pause. Despite himself, he found himself backing up slightly to get a better look at the two ponies inside.
He recognized both of them. One was Princess Twilight herself, stretched out on a bench sitting roughly in the center of the lounge-like room, with her back turned towards Thorax. Sitting beside her was the pink unicorn Thorax recognized as Twilight’s student and after a moment of racking his brain was able to recall her name as Starlight. The two were talking, but in hushed tones, quietly enough that Thorax couldn’t really hear what they were saying. After only a moment of watching though, the disguised changeling realized Starlight was attempting to comfort an upset Twilight.
Given recent events, it wasn’t hard to guess what the princess of friendship might be upset about.
Thorax found himself with mixed feelings about this. On one side, he found the fact that Twilight was this bothered about Spike's fate heartening and that it was clearly something she took seriously. But on the other, he also knew that, despite that, Twilight had not tried to stop it despite having ample opportunity to do so. After Spike proclaimed his intent to leave with Thorax after Shining Armor and Princess Cadance’s ruling of banishment on the changeling, it was clear then that Twilight was upset about it, enough that Spike tried to coerce her into intervening in some manner. Instead, she averted her gaze, sadly apologized aloud, and did nothing, effectively showing her support sided with Shining and Cadance and their ruling.
Spike made good on his promise regardless, departing with Thorax and thinking at least she would come to her senses and finally intervene, but after the two had traveled some distance on their own with nothing of the such taking place, reality became clear. This apparent betrayal had stunned Spike so much that he was unable to find words to speak until Thorax, knowing they couldn’t stay out in the open cold, took over and led the way to the cavern for shelter until they came up with a better plan. And Thorax knew from the emotions Spike put off that this was what bothered him the most about the betrayal. The dragon didn’t understand why Twilight would choose to go against him like that, and Thorax found that, as a result of this, he could only sympathize with the troubled princess of friendship so much about it. If it truly bothered her that much, then she shouldn’t have let it happen at all.
Shaking his head in dismay at the fact it all had to play out like this, he was about to turn and leave, but froze when Shining Armor himself suddenly stepped up to join Twilight and Starlight, approaching from a direction where Thorax wouldn’t have been able to see him coming. The disguised changeling nearly panicked, afraid he would be seen, but Shining Armor seemed to not notice him at all, and focused his look of concern on Twilight.
“Hey Twilie,” he remarked in a soft voice, but in a normal enough of a tone that his voice carried further than Twilight and Starlight’s quiet whispering, enough that Thorax could hear. “How are you holding up?”
Twilight didn’t respond right away, sitting up to look at the prince. “Not well,” she finally admitted, rubbing at her eyes with one hoof. Thorax couldn’t tell from here; had she been crying? She sounded tired too, and Thorax wondered if she had slept much during the night.
“Understandably, as it’s been a rough couple of days,” Starlight added in a somewhat harsh tone, suggesting that she thought the question hadn’t even needed asking.
Shining nodded. “I’m deeply sorry it had to come to all of this too,” he said sadly, and to his credit, he looked like he meant it. “Know I took no pleasure in letting Spike leave like that…he’s been such a friend to the family and all…if things could have been different in any other way…”
“You're sure extending the banishment onto him too for doing that was necessary though?” Starlight challenged suddenly, and looked like she wasn’t yet convinced of this.
Thorax perked up. If there was doubt about any of this, then perhaps there was hope that this could all be resolved peacefully still. Perhaps the banishment could be rescinded as a mistake, Spike welcomed back in with the ponies, and if they could get that far, maybe Thorax had a chance too.
It was too much to hope for though. “You heard Spike,” Shining pointed out glumly. “I don’t know what that changeling told him to make him so utterly convinced, but he wouldn’t leave the changeling’s side, no matter how much we all tried to reason with him. He insisted that the thing was his friend and he wouldn’t abandon him…no matter what. And he was genuinely convinced too; you know we checked him out for any mind tampering spells, but there weren’t any. His thoughts and intents on the matter were truly his own, and when we interrogated him afterwards we only reaffirmed that.” Shining hung his head. “I hate it, but he made his choice, and the truth of the matter is it wasn’t the one we wanted or could support.”
“You weren’t there when I last spoke with him in private, one on one,” Twilight suddenly spoke up, looking at Starlight. “Right before we…” she trailed off, took a deep breath, then jumped to her point. “He made it clear when I told him the changeling would not be permitted to stay in Equestria, let alone the Crystal Empire, that he would go wherever we sent it if he had to, for reasons beyond me, and he would not be swayed…no matter what I said to him. And you can bet that I tried too!”
“And before that,” Shining Armor added, “he had promised to me—no, vowed—that he would side with that thing no matter what we told him...all of which he repeated as we were banishing the changeling and had declared that if we cast him out...he would go with him.”
Starlight nodded to herself at all of this, but Thorax hadn’t known Spike had been so adamant about siding with the changeling even before the ponies had ruled Thorax was to be banished. When he and Spike had marched right into the throne room where Spike had made what Thorax had thought to be a very compelling argument in the changeling’s defense only to have it quickly rejected, Thorax was separated from Spike and thrown into a cell to be kept secure for the time being while the others pulled Spike aside to discuss, or “interrogate him on” as Shining put it, the matter. The changeling had already figured Spike had been checked over for any mental manipulation magic because when nothing of the such was found to be in effect on Spike, Shining had confronted Thorax, trying to get the changeling to fess up on what he had done to “trick” Spike.
Thorax naturally only repeated that it was no trick; what he and Spike were trying to tell them was the absolute truth. Thorax meant them no harm and wished to befriend ponies like he had done with Spike, and the dragon was only trying to help him accomplish that goal. They had both thought, apparently foolishly, they would hear them out if Spike backed him up. Shining Armor unsurprisingly didn’t believe him though and left again. Thorax had thought at the time that they went to again check Spike over for the spells they assumed Thorax had nefariously cast upon him, but he realized now he didn’t actually know what they did next with Spike.
The point though was that while Thorax was present to hear, Spike had been more focused on arguing with the ponies to not banish Thorax or on trying to sell the idea that a changeling could be good, at least until Spike at the last second, as Thorax was being thrust out of the empire, declared that if the ponies would really banish the changeling, then he would leave with Thorax as an outcast too. He didn’t actually know what Spike had said during the space of time they were separated, so Thorax hadn’t known that Spike had argued at length with them about the matter, let alone that the dragon had been so firm as to promise that he would not abandon the changeling even after being told Thorax would not be permitted to stay inside the empire before that final climactic moment…no matter what the consequences. Thorax assumed Spike had meant it as a bluff; that he didn’t think the ponies would really go so far as allow a good friend and ally like him voluntarily banish himself over the matter, especially considering Spike’s shock when precisely that happened anyway. But he found himself both touched that the dragon’s determination to defend the changeling was that strong even before the ruling, and dismayed that the dragon’s loyalty to a friend had been treated with such disregard by the ones he had once seen as his most trusted friends, advisors, and, Thorax suspected, role models if not family.
“Ultimately you have to see Spike didn’t leave us much other choice,” Shining went on regardless. “When everypony failed to talk him out of it, Cadance and I were left only with the undesirable choice of banishing the changeling, especially after he tried to break the thing out of his prison cell. I already feared he was going to cause trouble when we made that ruling, but I never thought he'd actually decide to side with that thing that he'd voluntarily choose to outcast himself and go with it.” He shifted awkwardly. "I'm sorry Twilight, when he asked to be present to watch when we thrust the changeling out of the borders, I shouldn't have let him come..."
"It's not your fault," Twilight assured him, sniffling. "I agreed to it too. If anything, I should've been the one to see it coming after that stunt he pulled trying to break the changeling out of jail..."
But this, of course, Thorax did know. When he and Spike were separated, they were separated for a good while and weren’t entirely sure what was happening to one or the other in the meantime. The changeling was only reunited with Spike when the dragon, fed up by his lack of success to sway the others and fearing for Thorax’s continued safety, decided to slip away and take it upon himself to “sneak” Thorax out of the castle and to safety while he continued to work to sort the mess out. That was when things really started to go awry, because obviously they were both caught in the attempt by Shining Armor himself, and because of how it made them both look, not helped by the fact that Spike had in the heat of the moment tried to lash back, the worst was assumed. This was when the two were brought forward again to hear the final verdict that Thorax was to be banished, confirming what Thorax had already begun to fear would happen by that point in time...and Spike decided he wasn't going to stand for it and came with him into banishment.
“Surely we could’ve just have kept the two apart though, right?” Starlight argued to Shining’s point while Thorax mulled about the previous day’s events. “Cast out the changeling obviously, but keep Spike here and away from him?”
“That might be what the changeling wanted, though,” Shining argued firmly. “It’s the most logical motivation I can come up with for that changeling doing all of this. I think he hoped to use Spike as some kind of pawn in some greater plan. And seeing that he got Spike so convinced to it to the point he had him wrapped around his hoof…there’s no telling what else he could have convinced Spike to do. The very fact Spike independently tried to free the changeling behind our backs, then choose to follow him into banishment, proves it. If he's that loyal to the changeling to voluntarily choose banishment, he could then be a threat in any number of ways to this empire and all inside of it. It just wasn’t safe, and if Spike was going to side with the enemy, then that left me with no choice but consider him an enemy too and treat him as such…like it or not. Changelings are master manipulators after all, and I dread to think what they could’ve accomplished with someone as close as Spike swayed to their side. We had to take into consideration my safety, your safety, the safety of my wife and foal, and the safety of every pony in this empire, and we would be negligent as rulers of this land if we didn’t. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, after all.” Shining sighed. “Besides, you know that when we laid down the charges before him, we gave him one last chance to choose to separate himself from that changeling or face the consequences. Yet even while knowing that, he chose banishment.”
“To be fair though, I don’t think he actually thought we were going to do it,” Starlight pointed out.
Shining shook his head at this. “Banishment is never a matter I or Cadance would joke about or use lightly,” he said. “If we say we’re going to resort to it for whatever reason…we mean it. And from the way Spike responded whenever the subject came up, I know he understood that much. He knew what we could do if he persisted on this path, and yet he stuck to it.”
Twilight didn’t seem so convinced though. “And what if he isn’t an enemy?” she challenged seriously. “What if he gets hurt? Or that changeling isn’t alone, and a whole gang of them do something to him? What then, Shining? How far are we really going to take this?”
“If you think I’m going to let this empire be infiltrated by a changeling and then not go out and sweep out any others that may be hiding in the area, then you don’t know me very well at all,” Shining explained determinedly. “Right now I’m letting that changeling simply think he’s in the clear for the moment and lower his guard. But then we’ll sweep in and prove without a doubt to that changeling and any others that are out there that we will not tolerate changeling trickery in Equestria. If Spike’s gets in trouble for siding with them, then that will be the time to intervene and rescue him, although I must remind you that he still chose to side with a changeling; we’d would still have to treat him as a potential threat even after all that until we can be absolutely certain no changelings will be able to exploit that.”
Twilight studied him intently for a moment. “Shining Armor, look me in the eye and tell me letting Spike to leave with that thing was the right thing for us to do.”
Shining sighed but gave the purple alicorn a serious look. “I know it feels beyond awful, hurts badly, very far from ideal, and that you wanted no part in it. I can’t blame you because I swear to you I feel the same. And I realize how much this is tearing you apart Twilight, and for good reason. But trust me. We made the right call, and you did too in choosing to back Cadance and me up on the matter. Letting Spike leave, as horrible as it was for us to do, was the right thing to do. I shudder to think what that changeling might have used him for if we hadn’t.” His gaze softened. “None of us like this, especially me, believe me. But sometimes being a prince or princess includes making the hard and undesirable choice you hate the most…for the greater good.” Leaning closer, he almost apologetically provided an example. “How do you think Princess Celestia felt when she had to send Luna away all those years ago?”
Twilight didn’t respond to that right away. From where he stood watching and listening through the ajar door, having felt increasingly more and more dejected by what he heard, Thorax locked his eyes onto Twilight and tried to will her to see the flaws in the logic of all of this. Don’t fall for it, princess, he pleaded in his mind. Recognize there’s another way! If not for my sake, then for Spike’s!
But Twilight instead slowly began to nod her head, closing her eyes as they filled with remorseful tears. “For the greater good,” she repeated in agreement.
Thorax’s eyes then fell on Starlight, hoping that since she’d shown doubt before she might try to protest again, but Starlight also bowed her head in submission and instead put a hoof around Twilight to try and comfort her. “I’m so sorry, Twilight,” she said.
Thorax hung his head, sorry as well as he felt the last vestiges of a peaceful and favorable solution out of this mess flutter away, and he realized it would not be coming back.
It was then Shining Armor finally noticed the disguised changeling eavesdropping on the group. “Hey!” he barked sternly, startling Thorax who feared the unicorn would realize who and what he was, but instead Shining jerked his head to tell him to get a move on. “Shouldn’t there be other things for you to do than to listen in on a private conversation?”
Realizing Shining only thought of him as another one of the crystal guards and hadn’t seen through Thorax’s disguise at all, Thorax quickly fumbled a salute so to look the part. “Yes sir, sorry sir!” he declared, and quickly turned and galloped off, resuming his course for the exit.
Every step of the way though he couldn’t help but sense the feeling of dismay that had collected in his stomach. He had heard first hoof now that the ponies had not only been unable to see the truth both he and Spike had tried to convey to them, they hadn’t even stopped to consider it a possibility, and indeed flat-out refused to. They had immediately rejected the obvious in favor of continuing to view changelings like him as nothing more than an evil foe to vanquish without hesitation or mercy…and used that to justify banishing one of their own simply because he chose Thorax’s side on the matter over their own.
Spike was right. They both had no friends here.
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To sum it all up: Fuck everyone that isn't Spike and Thorax. Especially Shining Armor.
I think that, although slightly OOC, this explanation makes sense. I eagerly await the next installment.
Well... that's heartbreaking.
Bringing out the Luna card is a low blow, especially since Luna was obviously attacking at the time.
And then Celestia, when she had the chance, enacted a plan to fix it. One that was at least a decade in the making.
I enjoyed (uh... maybe appreciated) this chapter, though. It definitely gave me the answers, although... I agree with Thorax that there are no friends here. I think you did a good job delivering what exactly happened, although the author's note that it's basically supposed to be a somewhat weak reason is appreciated.
I feel like Celestia and Luna are going to rip them a new one..
7739663 Plus, Nightmare Moon was a threat to All life everywhere.
But this was a good chapter. I still hate Shining, but I think I just enjoy hating him for some reason.
I'm fine with Twilight here, at least for now. If she doesn't change at some point in the future I'll feel disappointed.
Though their reasoning is...fair, it's a bit flawed, at least to my understanding. Assuming that the Crystal Empire is a proper Empire with all that entails (I.E. probably captured land from others in it's history - by Sombra or something, just to be very basic about it) and the idea of "The needs of the many, over the few" are followed; technically the safest 'route' would be to execute Thorax and possibly Spike; thinking from an imperial perspective, banishment wouldn't really solve much --- say that Thorax really is an enemy that controlled Spike, you've just released an enemy of the Empire that now might have information and, in this case, a VIP (High-valued person, since Spike is blatantly a hero to the Crystal Empire, at least that's what the public seems to think, and PR is half the battle) and you've made zero gains, lost some, in actuality, in addition, banishing a symbol like Spike is a PR nightmare in of itself, though can be spun to fit your choosing, though martyrdom would be more effective at getting people on your side, any dirty trick for 'The Greater Good', speaking of even if you execute them, you can possibly benefit from it, martyrdom is a strong motivator and can be made into good PR material. The scenario I think would benefit the Empire the most would be publicly martyr Spike and somehow pin the blame on the 'vile mind controlling bug thing'. But then again, I might just be being too grimdark for this sorta thing...been reading a bit of 40k recently...In the grimdark, dark grimness of the forty-first millennium, there is only grimdarkness and yadda-yadda.
P.S. I hope I didn't make a complete ass of myself...or fool...
I really appreciate the direction you went with in this chapter. It smartly avoided needlessly demonizing the pony characters, as well as presenting the readers with justifications for their actions that (while still intentionally weak) still felt grounded in some rationality and like it was coming out of the mouths of the actual characters, not degrading caricatures of them. Their prejudice, as in the episode, simply prevents them from seeing Thorax as anything other than a threat and hence why they cannot even openly debate the possibility that he's not.
And yeah, props to you putting emphasis on Shining Armor and Cadance's primary objective being to the welfare of their Empire. That they're not acting this way to be the cliche 'Racist Authority Jerk' villains, they're trying to protect their home, their family and citizens from what they can only view as a serious threat.
Naturally, I would like to see a scene where a third party (ie the Alicorn Princesses) do openly ask them to consider the 'extremely unlikely' possibility that they're wrong. And no, not in the whole self-righteous, begging-for-an-entry-in-a-Crowning-Moment-Of-Awesome-tvtrope-page way, but more them genuinely, seriously asking, "No dudes, seriously... what if you are wrong?"
Good chapter and am looking forward to seeing how you intend to resolve Spike and Thorax's very difficult, borderline hopeless situation.
I find it a little hard to swallow that Twi would back down against Shining on this; she's just agreed with banishing her little brother to effective death in the frozen wastes...
I can't really blame any of the ponies for thinking like they do. Shining was the one most affected by the Changeling's manipulation during the wedding, so it makes sense he would be the most prejudiced against them. Twilight was also heavily affected plus she has a strong connection with her brother so it makes sense she would side with him. I also like the fact that, despite the reasons previously mentioned, she needed more convincing to believe that banishing Spike was "for the greater good."
The interesting thing is that they don't think Spike is to blame, rather that he'd been tricked by the Changeling. They probably think that his banishment will be temporary or something. They probably think that once he realizes the Changeling isn't his friend he'll come right back to them.
But the best part is that this is all fixable. The ponies will have to give the mother of all apologies and Spike's relationship with them will never be the same, but this is still fixable. If nothing else, this fact gives me hope.
I will be honest, this is too contrived for me. The root of this conflict is blatant racism and stupidity, from characters who should know better. As it stands, their arguments are little more than flimsy cut-outs to be knocked down later.
Great chapter
_I like how you give each character a moment to explain their actions.
_Like Thorax finally believe what Spike saying about the pony in the beginning chapters.
_Like Twilight feeling guilty for her actions, but I'm still disappointed in her. After all that Spike did for her, and they use a spell to see if he was brainwashed, Twilight still didn't stand up to Spike.
_Starlight was very supportive.
_Shining what he said to Twilight about Celestia sister that was a low blow. First Nightmare Moon was a goddess and used forced to get her way, but Spike choose to talk it out to come with a peaceful resolution. So Shining bad move on his part.
7739663
Oh yes, the Luna card is a very low blow, and that's why it's there. I remember when I got the idea for that, I thought to myself "Ooh...that's cold...it's perfect!"
7739692
As satisfactory as that would be, I do feel obligated to point out that, when Celestia and Luna find out about this, it's certainly not going to be Spike and Thorax telling the tale, but rather the bias ponies that conducted the banishing in the first place.
7739695
I actually didn't mean for Shining to come off as the "baddest bad guy" in all of this, and wanted instead to split the "badness" equally among everypony, but he keeps coming across as that anyway, so I guess I'm just rolling with it now. *shrugs*
7739719
...except ponies are well known for being non-violent and gullible. Banishment would totally seem like a good idea to them. It worked for practically every other villain they faced ever, after all!
7739734
Exactly everything I hoped to convey with this chapter, so good, sounds like I succeeded.
7739759
If it helps, I'm not done addressing Twilight's reasons for acting the way she did in all of this. More details will arise gradually as the story continues to progress, before eventually, yes, the whole thing comes straight from the horse's (heh) mouth in the end.
7739774
*
*makes a series of very excited noises, but knows he shouldn't say anything or risk giving too much away so settles instead in expressing himself with a smug Applejack:
7739805
I'm honestly not in disagreement with that. It is all very weak, and I really wish I had found a way to make it more sound and strong in reasoning. But I saw almost from the beginning that this would be a fairly tall order, and I'm not sure it can even be done, unless I either change things so all of the events of "The Times They're A Changeling" played out very differently rather than just the ending when I didn't want to stray from canon that much, OR omit Twilight (and probably Starlight too) from having participated in supporting the ruling to banish, and I have...reasons...for wanting Twilight to be part of the blame too. Unfortunately that means that no matter what I do, there's probably always going to be part of it that comes across as weakly-reasoned or there's no story. So instead of fighting it, I'm planning to run with it as a sort of...plot point...if you will. In other words, I have plans for this that will hopefully make it balance out a bit better.
Though if you have any better suggestions, I'll happily hear you out.
7739889 ah, I see now, I was just under the influence of the Grimdarkness of the dark grimmness of the 40k books, my bad. my basis is what they did to sombra, poor guy, but hey, he's got an Overwatch charater now! (bad joke, am sorry)
7739899
On the upside though, you know Overwatch has really made waves in the world when even I can get that joke...and I've never even played the game or have much interest to.
7739889 Not certain if that smug Applejack should make me happy or concerned, so I'm just going to continue hoping.
7739889 The trouble, as I see it, is that this is Season 6. The mistakes that are being made in this story are ones that characters have already made, and learned from, in past seasons. The foundation of their argument here is racism, and the logic they use to justify it is fundamentally flawed.
For example, I'm pretty sure Spike is still a child. A child that they have abandoned in the wilderness alongside a creature they believe is irredeemably evil. A creature they think is manipulating this child for nefarious purposes. And they did this because they thought it would be harder for the changeling to use him for nefarious purposes if they banished them both together...
Also, why banish the changeling in the first place? They think they caught a spy/subversive, and instead of having it locked up where they can keep an eye on it, they set it free so can they lose track of it again? They have come full circle and accomplished nothing but turn Spike over to the "enemy."
So, yeah, this is pretty out-of-character, not to mention self-defeating and illogical. There really isn't a way for this to make sense without radically altering the story.
What is the crystal ponies view on this, will their be a secret civil war with a small group of crystal ponies who still see Spike as their hero, and what about Discord being a reformed villain, or the main six, especially Dash she's my OTP shipvwith Spike.
7740028 I agree, especially on the child and imprisonment of a spy part. Spike is a kid. And the best idea isn't to throw a spy out but keep him imprisoned in order to learn as much as possible.
They made numerous mistakes... but the worst is the moral one...
That said, I do like this and I may read it more... assuming I can keep my anger toward the ponies (would like to use a different word, but won't) who condemned them to banishment under control.
7740028
Fair enough, but obviously no good way around that without, again, drastically changing the set-up of not just the story, but canonical events leading up to it, and I want to keep that to a minimum if and where I can. Maybe I'm shooting myself in the foot doing that, but there it is.
To be technical, it depends on how exactly you define "child" (by which I assume underage) and Twilight's exact age, because seeing Twilight hatched Spike when she was fairly young herself, then in pony years, Spike would only be a few years behind her. For example, if Twilight is in her twenties, then Spike would be about his teens I estimate. In dragon years of course, that's a whole different ball of wax, and still not entirely clear even within the canon. Not that I'm trying to justify my way out of it, just pointing out that one's perspective would play a strong factor in it.
Still, I might have a way of addressing this in some manner...I'll give it some thought.
Now I concede that I hadn't considered that point. Best guess at the moment is that, considering Thorax would only back up Spike's story, they decided he wouldn't talk, and as we don't have much evidence that ponies will resort to torture to force info out of perceived enemies (although I will admit, in figuring out how the banishment went down, I wrote a sort of "prequel" chapter covering all of it (parts might pop up later in the story) and at one point the subject of using magic to probe Thorax's mind for the truth is suggested but not enacted upon), they then decided there was no point keeping him around. And as ponies don't seem to do executions...hmm...no, that still sounds not that logically sound...
...I'll see if I can address that one too in some manner.
As I said before, I'm aware the justifications I make in this tale in order to make it work only go so far, and I fear that no matter what, there never was any way around it. But on the upside, keep pointing out the spots where it falls short, because I can still use those to plug up as many as I can in some manner and want to still try...I just can't with a clear mind guarantee perfection.
I don't know about following this story. The ponies have completely shot themselves in the legs, here, in terms of going forward, on multiple angles. The Princess of Friendship has just admitted that banishing her brother and charge was for the greater good. And she has a friendship student who has done much worse with her right now. How can she ever possibly make up for this blunder? And it is a blunder.
I can't see any possible way to make up for this and be believable...
I mean, it'll be one of Twilight Sparkle's greatest failures of all time. Let alone Shining Armor and Cadance.
7740162 Yeah, canon is pretty silent when it comes to ages. For myself, the fact that Spike is referred to as a "baby dragon," and that larger and presumably older dragons are referred to as "teenage dragons," leads me to assume he's not old enough to be considered a teen, but admittedly that's not much to go on.
Ehh... I appreciate you tried to address this, but this still feels wrong - not how I feel Twilight, princess of friendship, would have reacted. If she was entirely convinced that Thorax was manipulating Spike for the sake of a plan, then forcible separation, observation, and endless fruitless attempts at persuasion. I can't see her giving up on Spike like this, or throwing him out into the cold, even with the intention of swooping in if (and after) things go wrong. It just doesn't compute. Spike's not a friend or assistant, he's her little brother.
That she has doubts is good (and that her silence seems to stem from her lack of confidence as a princess), as is Shining's plans for what to do now, but I don't think it's good enough, especially given how things played out. Hearing 'the greater good' out of Twilight's mouth was pretty...
. You didn't demonize them, which I appreciate, but I'm just not satisfied with the portrayal here. I'll continue to read, but...
(On a different note, I really liked the failed changeling detection spell, and why it failed. Clever take.)
I'm loving this story so far and am curious to see where it goes! I'm hoping there's going to be some action/life risking situations the two get thrown into.
If I may ask, how many chapters is your story likely going to have and when will be the next one?
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I'm fully open for any suggestions on how to improve it.
That goes for anybody else with misgivings too! I'm always interested in working to improve the quality of what I write.
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It gets even more complicated when you consider that, given the nature of the matter, Equestrian law factors into it, and in pony years, Spike might be old enough to be deemed legally "of age" by it's stipulations and thus not protected from punishments such as this on those grounds. Hence why I mentioned Twilight's age now (and her age when she hatched Spike) factors into it as well, because that would determine how close Spike might be to "of age," at least in the eyes of Equestrian law. And seeing Equestria has a very scant populace of dragons within it (often implied to include only Spike), I doubt it'd have any notes adapting it for the handling of dragons.
As such, the age issue is one I might end up just continuing to overlook, on the grounds that, in light of having no clear data to fall back on to straighten it out, it's a can of worms not worth opening. At best, I might make verbal note of it within the story at some point just to acknowledge it, but not provide any clear resolution to it. But I'm still considering all my options on that. I'm still working on working solutions for the other criticisms you gave, but for the issue of Spike and Thorax being banished together, I've been debating going back and retconning minor points in the story up to now to better explain that. If I do, I'll give a heads up to all readers.
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That is part of the point of the story, though. Why would Twilight abandon Spike like that? I'll tell you now that the fact she did, whatever her reasons, cuts deep for Spike, and I admit, the story's more about that than Twilight's reasons why she did it.
But that said, as I've said to other commenters, any suggestions you have on how to improve the plausibility of the story are welcome.
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Don't know as of yet how many chapters the story will have total, but I estimate easily well over ten, so maybe around twenty? That's a very rough estimate though.
Currently I'm posting new chapters for this story on a Monday/Friday schedule, so next one should be going up Friday, barring no unforeseen complications (I don't expect any).
7741726 I'm unfortunately not really sure how to make the situation work here without changing the way the events transpired or the emotional states the characters, specifically Twilight (Starlight seems to be where I think she'd be), are currently at. Thanks for being open to input, though!
I likes
.
....good chapter. Just going to leave now.
All i see in Shining is a Nazi, give me one good reason to not kill you
7740393
Jim Miller stated at some point this year or last that Spike is not to be considered a baby. The baby dragon thing is more a reference to his size compared to other dragons considering his mental state.
7739805
You're joking right? Half the time ponies react solely on how something looks (the writers are rather wishy washy about that) not to mention they had a history of acting that way to different pony tribes. That sort of mindset doesn't just disappear that fast it gets displaced towards other targets and if a species gives a bad first impression well there you go. Also if the comics are acknowledged technically the previous princess of the Crystal Empire wasn't much better. She allowed a colt of a new pony species to be effectively tortured a full week once a year for the entirety of his childhood without anyone else knowing and when he found out he finally snapped.
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Not only that, but when you really get down to it, Twilight, at the very least, has been shown to be slow to trust former enemies herself, princess or not. For example, she's still "friends" with Discord only technically, and she more just tolerates Trixie these days rather than consider her a friend or even ally (though in Twilight's defense, the feeling's mutual on Trixie's behalf). I also got the impression that she remained skeptical of even Starlight herself up until Starlight showed Twilight precisely why she was the way she was before her reforming, and a similar argument could potentially be made for Sunset Shimmer for most of EqG 1. For Twilight to be distrusting of a changeling, one of the races that had cut her personally among the deepest, doesn't seem that hard to fathom to me, and one of the story's goals is to explore what happens when one's blind distrust leads them to make horrible mistakes that should've never been.
7740028
That all said, there's definitely a clear majority of readers who agree that there are holes in the story's logic that need filling, so to try and resolve most of them (I hope!) I'm probably going to go back through the chapters posted thus far and make a minor change to how the banishment all played out before posting the next chapter, so that it's less Spike getting banished along with Thorax, and more Spike choosing to banish himself in an attempt to continue to show support for a friend he knows has done nothing wrong and is being treated unfairly...and nopony stopped him for whatever reason (to be explored in more depth later). That way I can smooth over most of these rough spots while also still maintaining the premise I've been shooting for with this story.
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You know, after four and a half years now, I'm still struggling to figure this one out. Why is Shining Armor the go-to designated bad guy in any story about changelings? I understand almost every single character in this fandom has at least one or two stories where they’re written as nothing less than the spawn of Satan. Princess Celestia above everypony else can attest to this. But there’s this steady trend in changeling stories where Shining Armor, more so than any other character (ie Cadance, Celestia, etc) is repeatedly shoehorned into the role of the Antagonist, the occasional worst-case scenario being a violently racist, borderline genocidal Evil Military stereotype.
I get the typical explanations such as 'because of the Wedding', 'they kidnapped Cadance' or (often too loosely handled) PTSD, but it's at that point I think people don't really understand my criticism. These are perfectly logical reasons why Shining isn't gonna like changelings. It's like trying to rationalize why Superman or Batman aren't particularly keen on Lex Luthor or Joker. It still doesn't really justify the gross character derailment. It always feels more like a handwave, an excuse to have Shining be villain for the underdog changeling-protagonist-of-the-week to defeat. In other words, "just do me a favor and buy this".
One of the better explanations I've heard in the past that actually work in my opinion is our society's general disdain for authority. Shining, the Royal Guard and Celestia especially represent authority and the perceived oppressive majority and are despised because of it. It comes into play in Changeling stories especially because if ponies and the royal guard MUST be the "oppressive majority/authority", with his history with them and powerful position, Shining becomes top contender for "Evil Oppressor Numero Uno" (well, in contention with Cadie and Cellie, that is). He'll hardly ever be the underdog in a story, and he sits exactly where the underdog's adversary would be sitting, the underdog in question usually being misunderstood alien or evil-looking boogeyman aka Changelings, Especially Thorax.
But in the episode and Scyphi's story, it works because his and Cadance's behavior is never allowed to morph into flat antagonism. It's clear their priorities are protecting their Empire and most of all, their newborn child from being kidnapped and replaced. While one could well argue Shining does act as an antagonist in the episode, he's most definitely not the villain. His actions are guided by a genuinely noble sense of duty to protect his Empire, friends and family, not mean-spirited wickedness or spite. Its just that his prejudice which doesn't allow him to see Thorax as anything other than an enemy that puts him in conflict with the latter and Spike.
It's at least head and shoulders above the demonized incarnations so many other stories offer.
I like this a lot more - that Spike wasn't actually banished, per se, but chose to voluntarily banish himself with Thorax. This makes far, far more sense, and allows everything to proceed as it would have otherwise. Good fix.
again RACIST PONY BASTARDS
7744032 I have to say that's a very inaccurate reading of Twilight, because f that was the case she never even would have given Starlight and unset a shot
i was listening to this while reading and i feel like it made it even better.
I just thought of something. How will this affect Chrysalis' plan to replace everybody? And how will they feel if Thorax was brought up and Chrysalis goes into a rage over 'that traitor' and 'what she is going to do if she ever saw him again'? Would they believe Spike then?
And what will Twilight's friends say when they find out about Spike's exile? I find it hard to believe that Discord and Starlight could be forgiven, yet a changeling that has done nothing to them, doesn't even get a chance to prove itself.
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7744607
You know, reading over this chapter again, I notice how the premise serves to make the ponies look much worse than they would normally do. And I'm not talking about rejecting Thorax. No, it's this:
In the episode, Spike didn't approach the ponies with Thorax openly. They snuck around and lied and only got found out by accident, so his friends had much less reason to trust them. Furthermore, Thorax looked like he was trying to attack Flurry Heart. He wasn't, but they had no way of knowing.
By cutting these things, the story demonises the ponies more than if they'd been used as reasons for Thorax's and Spike's banishment. The episode would have given the ponies understandable reasons for their actions; now, they're reduced to telling each other "for the greater good" so Spike can look better in comparison.
aghhhhhh hurt screeching* you have defeated my feels and they are weeping on the floor what have you done
also also redeem hitter but not a changeling how could you twilight lol
"for the greater good" them fish heads. i didn't know that the Tau were involve in this.
7959572 Explains a lot.
You know, it always surprised me that they didn't have some kind of changeling detection spell.
Corrections offered without malice.
climactic
it feels beyond awful
clunky
8196937
All corrected, except oddly I couldn't find the "beeyond" typo...
7840819 I dunno if very nearly taking over Equestria counts as doing nothing... A species known for their mastery at deception and disguise. For all they know, Thorax could have been a scout/infiltrator sent to cause chaos and sabotage before the main changeling army comes in and finishes the job.
8198869 Discord betrayed their trust by siding with Tirek, yet he was given a second chance. Starlight tried to make sure Twilight never met her friends by messing with time magic, yet she was given a second chance. Hell, right after Chrysalis captured most of the important ponies (and a dragon assistance) in Equestria and they were freed, Chrysalis was given a chance. So, right not give a single changeling a chance to prove itself. If you paranoid, take precautions until it proves itself not a threat.
Screw all three of you, Twilight, Shining, and especially you Starlight. Starlight destroys Equestria several times over through time shenanigans, slap on the wrist and made Twilight's student. Which makes it DOUBLY hypocritical of her to even suggest the underhanded stuff she was here. And an extra screw you to Shining and Twilight, since Spike is pretty much a member of their family, that they tossed out for thin reasons.
And I really wish I could make it a law that anytime anyone says 'For the greater good' they would immediately get slapped in the face.
You're going way heavy on the overemphasis in this chapter. It makes it sound like Shiny is just randomly shouting or overenunciating things, maybe consider paring that down a little.