I got a review on my newest story so far, and I wanted to ask others about a change it suggested.

In narration, when Twilight was introduced, I used her full name, Princess Twilight Sparkle (since she's an alicorn in the story) and said that she was a lavender alicorn.

The reviewer said using her full name and pointing out she was lavender was unneeded information. BUT, I often hear you give descriptions when a character is introduced. My reviewer even suggested not even using "Sparkle" and just call her "Twilight" in narration.

In short, I'm confused right now.

Is dropping that info something I really should do, or is it just something that's more optional than anything else? And if so, what's the deal with the advice saying to give descriptions when introducing characters we already know look in the first place? This wasn't a case of LUS: I only pointed out that Twilight was lavender once, and that was at the start of the story.

7253862
I think that the reviewer was wrong, personally. Not that I'd say you have to introduce Twilight by full name, but I would say that it's optional and you shouldn't get dinged for doing it. If you called her Twilight Sparkle every time you mention her, that would be strange to me, but doing so when she first comes in seems normal.

I’m not sure I agree with the reviewer. I mean sure, probably everyone on here knows Twilight, but it’s a good habit to give that information fairly early. You sometimes might break it up a little, giving a piece of it here and there as you go on, but that depends on what you’re doing.

In short, I’d say you are right to use the full name and title on the first appearance. Besides, you can never have enough Twilight Sparkle!

7253862
Imo, treat your readers like they know nothing about the world, and reveal info as you go. Saying her full name and giving a basic description makes sense to me.

7253862

Your reviewer needs to read more than just MLP fic, it's starting to color his perceptions. While you should indeed avoid calling her "the lavender unicorn/alicorn/princess" every other sentence, it's a perfectly reasonable way to introduce her. Though you might try for a bit more descriptive variation? "Purple unicorn" has gotten somewhat threadbare I will admit.

7253865

I didn't call her Twilight Sparkle every time. In the story that was reviewed, I called her Twilight Sparkle two more times in the story (it was a 2,900 word one) but just about every other time it was either just "Twilight" or a pronoun.

7253862 Lavender is a loaded word. There's literally a trope named after 'lavender unicorn', and whilst use of the word isn't evidence of adhering to that trope, it can present a bit of a weird first impression, especially for a reviewer going out of their way looking for criticism, which you may be dealing with. Happens.

As for whether the info is necessary, which is the actual question, that depends. In an instance where it's a first person narration, with a character not previously aware of what Twilight looks like, then yeah, it could be considered absolutely necessary and your reviewer is probably just wrong as far as I'm concerned. In a third person scenario it's a bit more wibbly. As fans of the show we all know what Twilight looks like, so it's certainly true that in some cases the information could be redundant.

If there's confusion, try to think about what the reader learns when they are given the description of a character. If a character is looking at Twilight and is effectively committing her to memory, then it would make sense that this thought process is something the reader would see. If no info is really given, then it's redundant. Perhaps a nitpicky thing for a reviewer to comment on, but redundant nonetheless.

You can avoid this issue entirely by making sure that some other aspect of info is given when describing Twilight. Just colour? Not really much to work with. Ruffled, ragged coat? That might indicate that she's tired. If you describe her purple coat as being smooth and polished, that might imply to readers that she has made an effort to look presentable, and oh look I slid the word purple in there as well, what a coincidence. This is a bit of a circumvention, but might help you backflip over the issues your boi is having trouble with.

Identify what is valuable for what item of description. What is the takeaway. Your reviewer might not have an issue with the description itself, I'd imagine, but perhaps doesn't understand or see a point to why it exists. So, just put one in there.

7253862
Okay, I went and read the introduction to that story, which I thought was completely fine. Then I read the part of the review you cited, and I saw that the reviewer wasn't really talking about you using Twilight's full name and title so much as using too much information right at the start of the story and citing that as one example. I still disagree with the reviewer, but I see their point now. If that one passage has too much information, like, the reviewer needs to get the hell over it. It's the start of a story, it's setting things up, it's creating the atmosphere. The reader is not meant to be sucked in yet. If that's a consistent problem through the entire story (giving too much unneeded information) then it might actually be a problem.

Like I said, I think that introduction is fine, and the paragraph sentence actually got a good laugh out of me. But if the reviewer's point was that this habit persists through the story, then I would say you're missing the point of the review by focussing too much on the examples and not the point behind them. As someone who hasn't read the story in question, or even the whole review, I can't say which it is either way.

7253874

Overall I didn't try to take that much info so how the scenes looks, but tried to give enough to let the reader visiblize the scene. This is something I'm still working on doing right, since this advice isn't shown very often in examples, so I more or less have to guess how to do it from how I see it in other stories and from how it's said to do, and just hope I understood correctly. If I am indeed doing it very wrong, then I'm fucked because I'm doing the best I can with what I do know and from how the advice I hear says to do it.

Ultimately, if I'm just doing it wrong, then I guess it's be something I'll just have to try to figure out what exactly I'm doing wrong and how to do it right.

7253873

You can avoid this issue entirely by making sure that some other aspect of info is given when describing Twilight. Just colour? Not really much to work with. Ruffled, ragged coat? That might indicate that she's tired. If you describe her purple coat as being smooth and polished, that might imply to readers that she has made an effort to look presentable, and oh look I slid the word purple in there as well, what a coincidence. This is a bit of a circumvention, but might help you backflip over the issues your boi is having trouble with.

When I can, I will jump at the chance to do things like that, but I usually can't since Twilight's coat is usually how it normally looks, with a few (for my stories) uncommon exception. So far, I haven't written a story where Twilight's coat (or anypony's coat for that matter) starts off not in it's usual condition, so I'd be stuck either way.

7253880 Well then you have to ask yourself if it's worthwhile taking the space to effectively describe 'Twilight looked the way she always does', and what it means to say that. Does your character know what she always looks like? If they don't, would they pay attention to the colour of a coat, or briefly think 'wow, that looks very normal'. Perhaps it does mean something to the character that Twilight looks pretty average, especially if she's in her Princess stage and your character is expecting something grander.

There's always an angle to play, but if you've got no reason to say anything, you may want to ask yourself whether it is, in fact, unnecessary information and just filling up space. Worse, it could appear out of place, since a character paying notice to something that they have no reason to is a bit strange. If it's not important to your character that Twilight is purple and also has completely standard hair, well, why would it be important enough to mention, especially if the appearance of the character to the reader also isn't crucial (since we know what it is).

7253880

So far, I haven't written a story where Twilight's coat (or anypony's coat for that matter) starts off not in it's usual condition, so I'd be stuck either way.

Well, what HapHazred gave you was just one example. If you cannot convey a character's state, you can still do other things to mask that you are just plainly describing the coat colour--you may describe how it shone it moonlight, how it contrasted with the mare's dress, or how it reminded the narrator of his grandma's couch. (Notice that you can also use this to convey more information about the character you are using as a POV in this way--to what details they pay attention, what's their tone and attitude?) Simply spice things up so that it's something more than just "the pony had a purple coat".

On a side note, you should always consider if you are writing the story for a regular fan of the show (then the descriptions can be scarce) or for someone not really familiar with ponies (then you need to describe a bit more). Whatever approach you choose, make it consistent.

7253884

There's always an angle to play, but if you've got no reason to say anything, you may want to ask yourself whether it is, in fact, unnecessary information and just filling up space

That was something I wondered too, but the advice I hear about how to introduce characters says otherwise, so i just kept it. I'll even admit that this is less what I personally think and more what I was told how it's done.

But, going by what both you and EveryfreePony said, if there's nothing to really add it to, I can just leave out how the character looks, other than what type of pony they are, or if they're another race. To be honest, being less descriptive when it's not truly needed works for me. It's less work, but I really only did it because I thought that's how it's done, going by writing advice.

7253886

On a side note, you should always consider if you are writing the story for a regular fan of the show (then the descriptions can be scarce) or for someone not really familiar with ponies (then you need to describe a bit more). Whatever approach you choose, make it consistent.

I do try to be consistent when things like that, so that I think is doing right. if I'm messing up, I may have need to try to figure out if I'm trying to follow conflicting advice at the same time, which I think is a possibility the more I think about it.

7253890

That was something I wondered too, but the advice I hear about how to introduce characters says otherwise, so i just kept it.

I may have need to try to figure out if I'm trying to follow conflicting advice at the same time, which I think is a possibility the more I think about it.

Keep in mind that most writing advice pertains to original fiction, not fanficts built on an already established franchise with well-known world and characters. A more detailed character introduction is indeed preferred in original fiction--and it may also come in handy in some fanfic scenes, but it's not a must there.

7253893

Keep in mind that most writing advice pertains to original fiction, not fanficts built on an already established franchise with well-known world and characters.

I usually try to, but much of the advice I follow comes from what I learned here, but not all of it, with is partly why I felt confused. No one ever said being a writer is easy for sure, but every once in a while, it feels like no matter what advice I follow or try to do, I do something wrong because of something the advice I hear leave out, but I didn't know it. I try to prevent this by trying to see if there's more to any advice I hear, like what does it really mean, so I can figure out the times when not to use it, but this can backfire if I misread it.

7253862
I just looked at the story and the review—not much of either, so please do feel free to correct me if I’m missing something. Personally, I don’t like your introduction, but not for the same reason as the reviewer. Here’s why:

Oh. So, THIS Twilight Sparkle is in her season four finale form, where she'd skip the speeches and just try to blow the villain's head off. Okay, this story is now shaping up to be a FUN one to narrate! Twilight's not super-charged this time, like she was when she fought Lord Tirek in an epic battle, but I will still put fifty bits on her! Let's go!

Because the narration here heavily suggests that the narrator is someone who’s pretty familiar with Twilight Sparkle and the show. That is why I think it’s a problem to refer to Twilight by that comparatively long introduction; if I’m looking at Twilight for the first time, sure, I might take notice of her being lavender, but by season 4... yeah, I wasn’t watching the show and going, like, “There’s Twilight Sparkle, a lavender alicorn princess.”

So that’s my big issue there. From what I’ve seen, I don’t think it makes sense that the narrator would refer to Twilight like that.

Something else I’ll add, which I think someone else already brought up, is that, whether describing Twilight at the beginning was a good move or not, the way the story did it was very bland and, frankly, uninteresting. Which means, personally, I’m much more inclined to read that second paragraph and assume the author’s making a mistake than I am to assume that there’s a good reason for describing Twilight. If it is indeed important to the story that Twilight is lavender, an alicorn, a princess, whatever, you know, make that clear. As it is, this really felt like you put in a description because that’s just how you thought stories should start, and I don’t blame someone for assuming that’s bad writing.

7253900

No one ever said being a writer is easy for sure, but every once in a while, it feels like no matter what advice I follow or try to do, I do something wrong because of something the advice I hear leave out, but I didn't know it. I try to prevent this by trying to see if there's more to any advice I hear, like what does it really mean, so I can figure out the times when not to use it, but this can backfire if I misread it.

I understand. The problem with giving advice is that no matter how hard you try, you just cannot cram in all the exceptions and alternate ways of dealing with the various trade-offs of storytelling, not to speak about possible misinterpretation. Ultimately, the best way to learn all the exceptions is by reading lots of varied fiction (both original and fanfics), thinking about what they do right and wrong, and trying to implement what you learned in your own writing.

7253909

If it is indeed important to the story that Twilight is lavender, an alicorn, a princess, whatever, you know, make that clear. As it is, this really felt like you put in a description because that’s just how you thought stories should start, and I don’t blame someone for assuming that’s bad writing.

In my defense, it's what advice on how to introduce character said to do even on the site, which is even why I'm now wondering why I hear to introduce characters like that at all. The fact that you might not have to is brand-new news for me, making me glad I made this thread. Learning stuff I've never heard before.

EverfreePony and HapHazred suggested better ways to do that, but this is actually the first time the advice on how to introduce character was said in the way they did.

7253915

I understand. The problem with giving advice is that no matter how hard you try, you just cannot cram in all the exceptions and alternate ways of dealing with the various trade-offs of storytelling, not to speak about possible misinterpretation. Ultimately, the best way to learn all the exceptions is by reading lots of varied fiction (both original and fanfics), thinking about what they do right and wrong, and trying to implement what you learned in your own writing.

I'm not really trying to cram all the advice I hear, and I do try to figure out may be better to do in one situation but not in another and trying to figure it out. I found that misinterpretations is far less often the the advice is shown, not just told, but this is done FAR less often, mostly leaving me with just trying to use it right, pray I understood it correctly, and also learn when not to use it and don't in those times.

One thing I long figured out is that some things, in writing or just about anything, requires a certain level of experience about all else, and without it, there's little you can do about it at the moment. As someone that's only been writing for a year and a half, it's sometimes frustrating as hell to know that there are some things I will not be able to see to do correctly until I get that experience, or get it right after I get it wrong, but what can you do, other than just trying until it becomes clear?

7253862

Having checked the story in question, and read some of it, I think the reviewer has a point, as 7253874 mentioned. I don't think you have a problem with "Lavender Unicorn Syndrome" (trying to constantly come up with creative new ways for referring to the same character), but you do have some problems with information dumps (paragraphs that step outside the story proper and just load the reader with info).

I'm not saying to avoid giving information to the reader though; you definitely want the reader to know who, what, where, etc.. The trick is finding ways to describe the situation while keeping the description in the same style of the rest of the story. Try to slip the information into the ongoing narrative.

For example, maybe Twilight has to squint her eyes as the sunlight glimmers off the purple crystal walls. Or maybe she sees her own deeper lavender reflection in the crystals, and still marvels at her wings, even though she's had them for a while. There are all kinds of creative ways to sneak a description to the reader.

7253862
In this case, we already know who Princess Twilight Sparkle is; she's a preexisting character we're all very familiar with. Now, if you were writing a standalone novel, and this was someone we'd never heard of, a full introduction might be more necessary. Although go about doing it subtly, such as other characters saying their names first, or slowly introduce more elements of their name over a short time.

7253862 7253873 If the color purple is important to the story, yes it should be mentioned. If not, don't. If you have the story in the POV of a character, it's possible to reach the end without ever describing the character at all. The important part is to fling yourself into the story so vigorously people are sucked in after you. You know, purple prose :)

Twilight was purple. She was quite sure of that. She had been purple when she was born, purple when she came to Ponyville, purple when she became a princess, and most likely would be purple until she died. Well, if princesses ever died. The important thing was she knew she was purple. It was part of her. The outside part, to be specific, although a lot of her inside felt purple.

That is, until she had met Rarity.

Unicorns measured things. Twilight had measured herself, determined her color was purple, and went on from there. Rarity only started in that general vicinity, and proceeded along the measurement path in a way that Twilight was tempted to call slightly obsessive-compulsive, except for the obvious response she would receive most probably while reshelving for the seventh time in the day. The color 'purple' meant roughly the same thing to Rarity as 'something in that beaker' meant to Twilight Sparkle. And worse, the specific color she was changed depending on the time of day or the month, or even indoors against outdoors. Winter coats were slightly different than summer coats, since each hair was lighter at the end and darker at the base, so what was 'lily lavender' one day could shift into 'lavender mist' or even 'dreamy cloud' with a good spring brushing that got itchy winter hairs out of the way.

7253976

but you do have some problems with information dumps (paragraphs that step outside the story proper and just load the reader with info.

I'm not saying to avoid giving information to the reader though; you definitely want the reader to know who, what, where, etc.. The trick is finding ways to describe the situation while keeping the description in the same style of the rest of the story. Try to slip the information into the ongoing narrative.

It is interesting that you mention that, because that is something I've wondered if I've gotten right, but the reviewer didn't mention, but said "unneeded info". So my issue is more something else than what I thought it was.

This error of mine is partly due to it being so rare to see how it's done right vs how it's done wrong,

Slipping in the information through narration is something i do try to do, but at this point, I may start wondering if, even if I do, is it even needed in the first place, or if I'm doing it right, since I am getting it wrong.

In fact

maybe she sees her own deeper lavender reflection in the crystals, and still marvels at her wings, even though she's had them for a while.

Because of what was going on, I wouldn't be sure how to do that and have it feel right, because Twilight was in too big a hurry to really look at herself like that in the crystals of her castle. If this really could be done this way, than I have another problem: I don't have the writing instincts to always be able to do that with confidence, or how to do it right. If so, I don't know what else to do that I'm not doing already. In this case, even doing my best wouldn't be enough.

The more I think about it, and going by the resposes here overall, it seems like I really should just leave information like that out unless it's truly needed. Something I really was already wondering about anyway, but just wasn't sure.

EDIT: and as I said in a earlier comment, that works for me!

7253862
Hiya, lovely ThePinkedWonder!

Iʼm kinda late here, but no matter. Unexpected Pairings got a review on ʼMy Litttle Reviews and Feedbackʼ, right? I read both the story and the review.

So, I only partially agree with the reviewer. Iʼll break it down to a few scenarios, using Twilight herself as example.

1. The story is first person POV and the character has never met Twilight before. It would make sense to call her a lavender alicorn the first time and call her the alicorn (or princess, since sheʼs quite famous) until she introduces herself by name.
2. The story is third person and is being told through the eyes of someone who has never met Twilight. You do the same thing as above. Call her a lavender alicorn the first time, and call her the alicorn until she gives her name.
3. The story is from Twilightʼs point of view. As is the case with your story. Then, you shouldnʼt introduce Twilight by anything other than her first name. Because youʼre not ʼintroducingʼ her since she is the storyʼs main character.

I sincerely liked the story, and the reviewer was a little too harsh, in my opinion. Anywho, hope this clears up some confusion.

Keep on writing!

7254080

I think that does help with some of the confusion I still had, so thanks!

Getting a not-so-great review doesn't feel good, but if it points out things I should/shouldn't have done (given I really should/shouldn't that is) so I knew better next time, it'll ultimately be worth it.

7254088
My pleasure. Helping others is what I do!

7253862
You see the problem is that we know Twilight and we don't expect to be introduced to her, but the charecters in the story might not know her, so in a way it gets awkward for the reader but it is reasonable to do so.

7253862
I just finished reading your story, and I'd say you do have the habit of repeating information not needed for a fanfic.

While you do introduce Twilight with descriptors, you also continue to do so throughout the story. This may be what the original reviewer was pointing out, but I don't know as I haven't read his review yet. At this point, I'm going by what I'm seeing.

Throughout the story, you continually mention colors. Colors of various objects are fine, but then at one point, you describe the color of Twilight's mane while Spike is stroking it. As I mentioned in the beginning, this is a fanfic, so unless something unusual was going on with an established character, there's little need to go into that sort of detail. Also, you briefly introduce Pinkie and describe her as a pink earth pony. Again, that's unnecessary information.

I found the narration to be a bit strange and all over the map. I know it's a Comedy, so the narration breaking the fourth wall reflected that, but it was still a bit jarring. Only when the story reached Starlight's bedroom and the antics Twilight froze when she saw (minds out of the gutter; it's a clean story) did I actually get a chuckle. So for that, I thank you.

I'll have to read more of your stories to see if this was a one-off technique, or if this is typical of your writing. It's perfectly fine if it is, for it's your style and it obviously works for you. But, you did ask.

7254122

I'll have to read more of your stories to see if this was a one-off technique, or if this is typical of your writing. It's perfectly fine if it is, for it's your style and it obviously works for you. But, you did ask.

In my stories without OCs, it's something I've been doing in my more recent ones, but it was something I was thinking of calming down in my next ones. The review helped sealed the deal.

While you do introduce Twilight with descriptors, you also continue to do so throughout the story.

It was something I did (not counting the introduction) three times, one of the times had a purpose. One other time was because it was to keep from using Twilight too many times in the paragraph I did it (which is something I do as a last resort: 90% of the time I can rewrite paragraphs to avoid that)

I'm not fully sure if it was what my reviewer was talking about as well since there were other things I know he was.

On a related note, compared to what I've seen in a lot of stories, the number of times I used descriptors was overall pretty low. One story I read, from an seemingly experienced author (or at least more experienced than me) called Twilight an alicorn over ten times before it hit 1,500 words, which when I did have a case of LUS, i still never came close to that, but that was a more extreme case I've seen. I was even starting to wonder if I was overdoing being careful about using descriptors too much. No kidding

Still, on hindsight, my three times but might still be one or two too many times.

Throughout the story, you continually mention colors. Colors of various objects are fine, but then at one point, you describe the color of Twilight's mane while Spike is stroking it.

Believe it or not, something I debated cutting was this very thing, but at the last second, chose to keep it. I'll just put this errors like this under misreading writing advice.

7254035

Hmmm... Maybe, maybe not. I mean, you certainly don't want to be feeding just extraneous information on the reader, but there's a very wide gray area between that and "fleshing out the story world."

7254493

I kinda have an idea about that grey area, and giving descriptions to OCs is obviously a no-brainer -- just don't overdo it -- but doing it to canon characters is a whole another thing. It very rare, highly situational spots, like if their color is changing or something. In the case of Twilight, unless it's clear from the start that she's a unicorn or alicorn, It may be a good idea for me to either call her a unicorn/alicorn OR (if it's alicorn Twilight) use her full name, which would apply she's an alicorn in the story.

Other than that, the best I could do is just guess about that very wide gray area and hope I get it right. At this point, my only options are to either guess and cross my fingers, or don't descriptions if I really don't see a point and pray I don't get criticized for it. I actually got a headache earlier trying to see if I could figure some of the things out, but after some aspirin and rest from thinking about it, my head's better now.

For my head's sake, I'm not going to give it too much more thought for the time being, until whatever answers I don't yet know about it becomes clear on it's own, but at least I got some in this thread. if I keep getting it wrong, it will just have to happen. I really don't like using this approach because I pride myself in trying to become a better writer so I can write better stories. But for now, but it's either that, or literally suffer more headaches trying, and I have a history of high blood pressure. No amount of likes is worth me torturing myself over this.

I can still try in other areas. But as of when I should use descriptions, for now, I'll just go with what feels right to me and don't worry about if I got it wrong or not.

7254515

But as of when I should use descriptions, for now, I'll just go with what feels right to me and don't worry about if I got it wrong or not.

There's some real truth to that. You kind of just have to *feel* when you think the type and amount of description are appropriate. Others can help, certainly, but yours is the final, best judge of what will work for your story.

That said, since reaching an appropriate amount of description is a learned skill, the idea that a "good writer is also a good reader" definitely applies. Read others' stories. It can be so very helpful to see what others do well, and what they do not. Because either way, knowing what another author did can give you insight into what you can do for yourself.

7254551

It can be so very helpful to see what others do well, and what they do not. Because either way, knowing what another author did can give you insight into what you can do for yourself.

From at least one thing my reviewer said, even that may not work, because a lot of stories are doing that he suggested not to do. In fact, here's almost a borderline mind-bender: overall, I use descriptions less often then many stories I've read. From what I've been reading, I should use descriptions a little more often, yet it directly goes against not just the review, but also much of the advice on this thread.

This is more or less why that I ended up with a headache trying to figure that out not long ago, some time after I thought I figured it out. Too many contradictions for my head, and is why I'm leaning toward just not worrying about if I'm getting it right or not. Or try, and risk more headaches and possibly blood pressure trouble, which I've done good in keeping low the last couple of years.

7254583

From at least one thing my reviewer said, even that may not work, because a lot of stories are doing that he suggested not to do.

It's not about copying from what other authors do; it's about learning from it. If you think an author did something well, try to learn from that. If you think they did something poorly, learn from that too. For myself, I find myself thinking to fairly frequently, "I don't like how this was done. Here's how I would improve it."

What that means for your stories may vary, because like I said, adding in lots of details isn't for every story or author, but if done with care to not break the storytelling, it can make for an amazingly vibrant fantasy. This is one reason why JRR Tolkein's stuff attracts so many: he put so much background detail in that it feels less like a story, and more like a record of an actual world. Like... it might not have been necessary to develop an entire elven language, but he did anyway, and many people are absolutely enthralled when they learn that the snippets shown in the books are just the tip of an iceberg.

7254904

What that means for your stories may vary, because like I said, adding in lots of details isn't for every story or author, but if done with care to not break the storytelling, it can make for an amazingly vibrant fantasy.

That's something I heard a lot, but it's just not easy to do correctly. I may be a long way from knowing how to do that.

Generally, while I'm still trying to get it right, in my stories, I just try to add just enough to put a good enough image to the reader's minds.