There are a surprising amount of people who think a Mary Sue is just an overpowered person/pony.

This is not true.

The thing that determines if a character is a Mary Sue is not what they can do, but how other characters react to them.

Now, I'm sure many people have already posted about this, so I'll be quick—there is one simple step to find out if someone is a Mary Sue.

Is there any character in the story that knows the potential Mary Sue exists and just doesn't care about them?

If yes, it's probably not a Mary Sue. If no, well, your story probably sucks.

Back to the main point. If you look at MLP, for example, you can see what I mean. Twilight Sparkle: alicorn, Element of Magic, protégé of Princess Celestia herself, and official Friendship Princess. Starlight Glimmer: magical unicorn so bloody powerful she can blast alicorn Twilight out of the sky without even trying, and can levitate herself with magic, something we don't even know if Twilight can or could do. And so on. Most of the main characters in the show are extremely overpowered if you think about it.

But you'll notice that there will be ponies who just don't give a cent about the magical alicorn and her other magical superpony friends. Cranky, for one, does not at first want to associate with anyone.

"Right, got it, we all knew this. It's bloody obvious," you might be saying. But wait, there's more!

If you take this to its logical conclusion, you'll find...

It's perfectly okay to have a red and black, broken-horned alicorn OC.

"What the food? Why are you such an idiot?" you may be saying aloud to an empty room. (Or a full one, in which case, tell whoever heard you hi from me and tell me how the people around you reacted because I want gossip).

Now, this is still a bad idea. People are prejudiced against these sorts of characters. Many won't even read your story. But it can be done.

Want to know how? Don't worry, it's easy.

Imagine a character. Give them a backstory, emotions, motivations, core beliefs, all that good stuff. And make them have absolutely no power whatsoever. Make them a magicless earth pony. The first 50 years of that character's life is your alicorn's secret backstory. After your magicless earth pony OC became an alicorn, they lost their memories. But their past experiences still drive them. Whenever your alicorn is about to do something, think to yourself: what would the magicless earth pony version do if they suddenly became an alicorn? and have them do that.

This isn't a perfect solution. You still need a minimum level of writing skill, just like you do for all characters. And sometimes the magicless earth pony is just plain wrong. And the more power you give a single character, the harder you have to work not to make the plot seem contrived.

But as long as you make actual characters, you can pretty much make them as powerful as you want, so long as you're skilled enough to handle the complications that come with it. And also stupid people who don't read, look at your description, and downvote you because alicorn OC.

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A Mary sue has complete perfection and nothing bad ever happens to them, like an op character and everyone likes them and they always defeat their enemies and never have extremely bad things happened to them.

6074652
This just isn't true. There are plenty of Mary Sues who suck at everything they do. The reason they're Mary Sues is because everyone loves them anyway.

6074652

Except it's possible to play such a character for laughs - it's known on TVTropes as "The Ace."

6074648

The way I learned it was that a Mary Sue was a character the story works for, as opposed to them working for the story.

6074648
Take blackjack from fallout Equestria project horizons, she is very powerful and lucky but look at all the bad stuff that happens to her. Warning spoiler okgetting raped, having most of her friends die, getting betrayed by one of her friends, her vault getting raided and most of the population getting killed and her mother too.

6074653
Oh that's what I thought it was. Eh.

6074655
Isn't it still a Mary sue though?

Let me blow your fucking mind for a second...

A Mary Sue isn't automatically a bad thing. In fact, some of the best characters of all time have been Mary Sues.

Think about One Punch Man, Superman, Bobobo, Tom Sawyer, Harry Potter, The Little Engine that Could... How often are really popular characters, who few would offer are without merit, simply handed thing and given situations in which they just come out on top, because plot armor? I mean, One Punch Man seems built entirely around the concept of a Mary Sue who is so used to winning he's gotten sick of winning thanks Donald Trump. Hell, even the original "Mary Sue" was hilarious to read about: she was a fucking teenaged starfleet officer who Kirk and Riker wanted to bone raised by worms in a wormhole then the worms died. With these characters, it's not about their flaws or the fear of not succeeding, it's about the bullshit that happens that makes them succeed for no good reason, because, done right, that can be amazing to watch.

Then there's straight up deconstructions: remember the time Superman actually realized he was OP and decided to literally take a walk?

Yeah, people talk shit about the Mary Sue trope alot, but to quote TVTropes, "Tropes are merely tools". Yeah, a Mary Sue can really make for a boring story. Used properly though, they can be incredibly fun or even useful for a moral or philosophical quandary.

6074663
No. I'm sorry, I rarely say this, but you're wrong.
A Mary Sue is always a bad thing. You know why those characters you mentioned don't suck?

It's because they're not Mary Sues.

A Mary Sue has their problems (if they even have any) fixed immediately after they start, and everyone either hates or loves them. Power is irrelevant to Suedom. And there is no way you can do a Mary Sue that actually works. Because if you do, it's not a Mary Sue.

/soapbox

6074663

It depends if the character is written intentionally so their perfection can be explored (or laughed at); a Mary Sue used ironically, as it were. I recall the original Mary Sue herself was actually a subtle parody of absurd characters (wasn't she some kind of improbable hybrid, complete with weird hair and mismatched eyes - practically a checklist of Mary Sue traits?).

It's when a Mary Sue arises due to the writer having no idea how to write a character that it becomes trite.

6074663

some of the best characters of all time have been Mary Sues.

Twilight Sparkle.

6074693

Beat me to it.

Ok, because I like getting lessons in writing, can I get a clear cut definition of a Mary Sue and the pros and cons of using one?

6074705

You can't really lay out a catch-all schematic for a Mary Sue - it's the kind of thing you identify on a case-by-case basis.
But the closest thing to an actual definition we have is something along the lines of, "a character for whom the story works rather than the other way around."

A Mary Sue isn't challenged by anything, and doesn't have a chance to develop as a character, because the story spoon feeds them everything. All "conflicts" in such a story usually exist as a way for the Sue to demonstrate themselves by solving it. Throwing in an alleged flaw here and there does not automatically immunize them from this, either; Iron Man is apparently an alcoholic, but have we ever seen the real consequences of alcoholism actually get in his way?

Other characters may unanimously like OR hate them, it doesn't necessarily matter which. The point is that the other characters are either supplanted by the Mary Sue, or at the very least are bent out of shape to accommodate them.

There are no pros or cons, because it's not something you consciously employ. A Mary Sue arises when a writer doesn't understand how to craft a balanced character.

(The closest you can get to using a Mary Sue "wisely" is The Ace trope, where a character is laughably perfect and exists solely as a way of one-upping someone in an amusing way. If you're familiar with Blackadder think Lord Flash Heart. He is improbably awesome at everything, but the story doesn't focus on him, so it isn't trite - he rocks up, amuses us, and then dashes off to ensure that Blackadder himself gets screwed over in the end as per status quo.)

Basically a Mary Sue is a character we can't relate to or care about, yet the author seems to think we should. Whereas with Lord Flash Heart above, we obviously aren't expected to.

To bring up a non mlp example of this think of Saitama from one Punch man, he's OP as fuck (The title says it all) but he's far from being a mary sue because apart from like 6 people no one knows who he is and he's hated by almost everyone for being "a Credit stealing fraud" despite being one of the few characters in the show who knows how to be a real hero.

6074714
What is the Ace trope? Is it related to this site or something else? So as long as it isn't a main character, having a Mary sue is plausible, but still not really recommended?

6074717

I have no experience with OPM, but being powerful (or overpowered) alone may be a common trait of the Mary Sue, but it's not a defining trait on its own. I would have to watch it and see how the writing as a whole treats the character.

6074719

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAce

Even then, not all Aces are necessarily perfect at everything.
The point, as I summarized at the end of my long-ass ramble above, is how the story treats the character and seems to expect us to feel about them. A character we're clearly supposed to consider impossible to relate to and utterly out of our league is obviously not one we're meant to take seriously, so they're more-or-less safe from Mary Sueness. A true Mary Sue will be insufferable because the story/writer somehow thinks we should be invested in them, while we roll our eyes and ask "why should we care about your little pet?"

6074721
Firstly, OPM is a pretty decent anime, in my opinion, you should watch it if you got some spare time.
Secondly, so a Mary Sue is basically someone who is infallible in everything they do and are writing in a way that tries to make everyone, even those in the story, feel the same way about him/her? So does that mean it's fine if the person is OP, but people have varying opinions about them?

6074724

As long as they have a believable place in the story. The story needs to not spoon feed them everything; they need to be legitimately challenged.

It's easier if you have dig up two exhibits - one of a balanced character in a well-written setting, and one of a Mary Sue in a trashy fic. The difference will be a lot easier to see if you analyze just how the storylines unfold.

The important point to remember is that a character isn't really a Mary Sue on their own merits, at least not entirely - it's the story itself that sets them up that way. A character who beats out everyone at their established talents, is never challenged meaningfully, is always right, and never gets called out on anything would be a shoe-in for Mary Sue status unless the story happens to be a deconstruction of the realistic consequences of being "perfect."

(But it's easy to slap a few arbitrary informed flaws on a character and convince yourself you've done that, though. Having a perfect character whine about how being perfect is a curse because they "don't feel like they belong" absolutely will not cut it.)

6074724

I'll try to cook up a mild example.

Let's say an OC shows up at Ponyville and after meeting the mane six immediately starts contradicting Twilight Sparkle on everything (science, math, anything you'd expect Twilight to usually be top dog on). He's insufferable about it, and worse yet, Twilight doesn't seem to call him out on it - on the contrary, she seems to stammer or be taken aback every time, almost like he really is smarter than her!

If you leave it at that, you're asking for the wolves to come biting at your heels.

Now, let's say you later unfold details like... the OC actually just reads a lot, and so has specifically built up a basic general working knowledge specifically so he can validate his self-esteem issues by seeming like he can hold a conversation about anything.

Twilight wasn't being outsmarted - she didn't respond or call him out simply because she was genuinely taken aback by someone being so brazen and forward, and when given time to think, can easily respond to anything he says. Recall that she isn't the most social person (though that would have developed since S1) and so having someone constantly call her out on things would probably put her on the back hoof. If she had a blackboard and 2 minutes to formulate a reply, she could, but when pressed for a face-to-face response right there, she falters (this is truth in television for a lot of us - you think I'd have been able to say this post aloud in person?)

That's not exactly a deep example, but I think it serves to highlight a point. At face value the OC looked like a know-it-all supplanter, but the actual details are a little more down-to-earth when explored. But it's important to balance this properly, because trying for a "saving throw" at the end that completely contradicts how the character has previously acted will not fly under the radar for most readers. The depth you reveal has to actually make sense.

6074648
I know what that's like.

My OC is an alicorn, and people hate him for it, as well as the color he started as when he was a pegasus, until his color changed when he became an alicorn.

6074648

I think OSP(Red) has a pretty good grasp on it. Until I saw this, I honestly thought little better of the definition than most.

my definition is right! yours is wrong!

my main character (to put it bluntly) a hyper intelligent alien space princess from a different universe. She may be powerful but she has wants and desires just like anyone else. As well as a really complex backstory. She's not exactly a pony...or even technically alive because she doesn't have DNA.

6074648

Why do we want over powered OCs anyway? I only use OCs when I need underpowered characters. When the weakest and least br brave of the Mane 6 can solo a manticore, you really need normal bozos if you're going to up the challenge level.

SRSLY the thing that's entertaining about Starlight is what a total buckup she is. Her powers are cool because they allow her to make bigger mistakes!

6074957

Only the bottom tier of writers will create truly overpowered OCs (and probably also write them badly). The problem is there are some people who will truly cry Mary Sue if an OC shows any decency at anything.

If they are remotely decent with magic, they will be accused of trying to supplant Twilight - even though the show itself has long given up on the idea of "most unicorns only having a little magic, while Twilight is unique." If a pegasus is athletic, they will be accused of "wanting to be faster than Rainbow Dash."

6074648

With Sues, 'overpowered' has a different meaning than the one applied to normal characters. An overpowered Sue is:

1) Overpowered in comparison to everyone else in the story. Twilight & company may be powerful, but they have to face off against powerful villains, and their powers are often incapable of solving the issue in question. A Sue would not have that problem- they are the sole overpowered character, and their power is used to make sure that the villains stay put in the margins of the story and never grow out of it in order to threaten the Sue.

2) Overpowered from the beginning. Twilight was merely a fairly strong unicorn when she first showed up, and her excess of power was tempered by errors of judgement ("the fate of Equestria does not depend on my making friends", anyone?). Sues either begin the story with an excess of power, or have it gifted to them whenever they need it (like if Twilight had began the show as an alicorn princess, or she suddenly gained access to the Rainbow Power without having to go through the hassle of finding all the keys).

Power levels are relative. Sues are not- they are automatically Better than everyone else, and it doesn't have to be via power (and indeed often isn't). If someone is powerful, but also a loner who suffers because they refuse to work with a team, then they aren't Better than the weak character who provides essential healing and off-battle support. Some Sues prefer not to get their hands dirty and have their minions do their work for them, or just have no villain whatsoever. These Sues aren't 'overpowered' per se. They're Better because they're a minion master able to gain followers easily, and/or because there's no competition for the title.

'Mary Sue' isn't so much a question of power levels or reactions from other characters. a 'Mary Sue' character is a character who is simply 'too perfect'. A character without flaws or without any real hurdles to overcome, and they're problematic in literature because they mess with the conflict and resolution portion of narrative construction. The Mary Sue does have some sort of challenge to deal with usually, but they overcome it with such ease that it was barely worth putting before them. This can extend to both internal and external struggles, though a Mary Sue often doesn't have much in the way of internal struggle because they are, again...stylistically perfect. Never question themselves, no flaws, no second-guessing.

It's not so much that they have great power, but because everything they deal with is no contest. Mary Sues are therefore highly unrealistic and unrelatable to most readers, who can end up not caring what happens to them because well, they'll figure it out. I can't laugh and cry with this person. I can't get excited to see how they grow. They're already too much. As far as how the other characters react to them, well...if everybody is fawning over them for no good reason, then you've probably got a Mary Sue in the making.

6074648

Ah, this again.

Since I'm kinda tired right now, I'm just going to dig up one of my old Mary Sue rants:

A Mary Sue is a character that the author uses for personal wish-fulfillment rather than telling a story. The archetypical Mary Sue is a self-insert, but they don't have to be. The important thing is that the character acts as a proxy for the author's opinions and desires.

Because the Mary Sue is essentially "the person the author wants to be", she can often be percieved as overly idealized and perfect. Though, it might be more accurate to say that she is treated as being perfect by the narrative. A Mary Sue can actually have pretty dire personality flaws, because she often has nearly the same personality as her creator. But since people who write Mary Sues usually don't have enough sense of self-reflection and self-irony to aknowledge their own shortcomings, those flaws will either be out-right ignored, or the story will invoke excuses for why they are justified.

I'm seeing a lot of comments on how a Mary Sue isn't challenged within her story. To elaborate on that, the challenges in a Mary Sue faces are usually only meant to make Mary Sue look better, thus they aren't actual challenges. In particular, you can often detect a Mary Sue story by how the villains are never allowed the upper hand nor ever portrayed with much dignity - they exist mostly just to prove Mary Sue right and to be bested by her, often in a humiliating fashion. Quite often, they too are proxies of people the author resents in real life.

Basically, a Mary Sue is what you get when you channel too much of your own escapist fantasies into a story: You make Mary Sue very popular and loved because you have trouble forming meaningful relationships; you have Mary Sue defy authority because you are yourself frustrated with authority figures in your life; you make Mary Sue very powerful because you yourself feel powerless. Most likely you also give Mary Sue a cliché tragic past to justify her massive reservoir of angst - which, of course, gives you a handy outlet for your own angst. And so on.

It's not really something you can avoid just by looking at what most Mary Sue writers do and then try to do the opposite, because the problem isn't in your technique but rather in your attitude to your character and your story. To avoid Mary Sue you have to know yourself and learn to put the story first. There's nothing wrong with making a powerful, popular or even flawless character if that is part of the story you wish to tell. But the story has to be for other people, not for just you.

As for "overpowered" that is a contextual thing - the character is overpowered whenever the he or she is too powerful to endure any worthwhile struggle against the conflicts he or she faces, resulting in a story without tension.

For example, Superman's power level works just fine provided he is fighting suitably powerful opponents. But if you put him up against the more human villains Batman typically deals with, he is definitely overpowered.

Also, it's not always as straightforward as who can defeat whom in a fight. Case in point, Saitama from One Punch Man is deliberately designed to be hilariously overpowered compared to the villains he fights, and that works since being too powerful is the conflict he struggles with.

6074648
Thank you. I liked this! Mary Sues aren't characters who are powerful or talented, they are under-inspired and wish-fulfillment.

On this train of thought, I will also add that some think that a Mary Sue is a goody two-shoes. Again, this is not true. Superman, Jean-Luc Picard, Ultraman, Goku, Luke Skywalker, Twilight Sparkle, Pinkie Pie, Fluttershy, Princess Celestia, and Princess Cadence, are all goody two-shoes, but they aren't Mary Sues. Those obnoxious Sonic characters are all closer to being Mary Sues than they are, and they're all douche-bags. So what else makes a Sue?

I will show all the readers here what a Mary Sue is:

"Rainbow Dash was sad that she was humiliated by her own friends with their shared identity of Mare Do-Well, but secretly, she had a secret lover! His name was Terrick, and he lived in Tartarus. He was so heartbroken about his secret lover's sadness that he burst from Tartarus and absored the life-force out of every pony until they died, but that's okay because they deserved it! After beating up all of the Princesses at full power without any difficulty, and Princess Celestia largely speaks in Donald Trump quotes because the author likes neither Celstia nor Trump, he takes all of the Mane Six as sex slaves, implying that he raped them all, but it's okay because they totally deserved it!"

See, Mary Sues aren't always nice or just. Rather, Mary Sues tend to:

1. Serve as wish-fulfillment. Here we see the hypothetical author using his character to defend his waifu.
2. Have little backstory, which is utterly glossed over. Did you see me mention Terrick's backstory? Yeah, exactly.
3. Be underinspired. He's obviously based on Tirek.
4. Do socially unacceptable things that are treated as morally just. Terrick does blatantly evil things, but the hypothetical author doesn't condemn him once.
5. Have no internal struggles. Sues tend to do what's "right" in the story's terms because they just enjoy doing "good" things, not because they have moral codes or learn what would happen if they didn't help.
5. Has no external struggles. One of the main things that keeps Superman from being a Sue is that he's got weaknesses and villains as strong as he is. Terrick beats everybody without a struggle.