(I am aware I posted this topic some time ago in Changeling-focused groups, but here I'm appealing to a wider range of readers and writers in this bigger group)

In MLP fanfiction, there is certainly a trend of fanfictions which follow a similar concept or setting, be it Rainbow Dash breaking her wings and end up in hospital, humans in Equestria, etc. I can stomach most of them okay, but there is one type of fanfiction that really GETS to me, in how much I just don’t like it but it’s still widely used and eaten up like candy. This is the Changeling Apologist fanfic, otherwise known as “make the Changelings the majestic, victimized race and the ponies a fascist state on the levels of the Third Reich”.

You all know this fic, it’s the one where basically Changelings are the main characters and how they’re not all villains, and you know what? That’s actually pretty good an idea, I endorse it even. However, the problem is that almost all the fanfictions that do this entails these other two factors: the victimization and woobification of the Changelings as victims of oppression by Equestria, who are often made out to be the MLP representation of the worst of humanity. So basically, instead of just showing that not all changelings are bad, these fanfictions basically switch the good-evil alignment around in extreme directions.

Again, I want to stress that it is not really the way the changelings are portrayed that is the key factor in this issue, because I really do like seeing another side to Changelings aside from what we’ve seen from the show and comics, but it’s how the PONIES are portrayed.

The ponies as a whole in stories like this are often portrayed as one of or both of the following: a self-deserving, ignorant, cowardly and snobbish elite (haves to the changelings have-nots) who believe they own the world and looked down on any other species as dirt on their hooves, OR as fiery-eyed racist/speciesist hateful monsters and with this one, it’s surprisingly often played up to a high level; the kind where ponykind is howling for and actively trying to exterminate the Changeling species in vein of a 1990s Balkans genocide.

I understand this may come off extreme, but I've seen these kind of works more often than once. That the ponies as a whole, using the aftermath of the Changeling invasion as a justification, have a tendency become some of the most hate filled creatures possible in these works and suddenly become more than happy to follow through with wiping an entire species out instead of trying peaceful methods (Over a Barrel, anyone?), and if that's the case, you almost always have CELESTIA of all ponies openly backing or even instigating it, part of the whole Tyrant Celestia schtick.

These kind of fics lead, in my opinion, to some of the worst canon character treatment I've seen in MLP fanfictions. Yes, ponies are by no means the most perfect species, they are jittery, fearful of things they don't fully understand and cautious, but overall, they are meant to be a generally peaceful, tolerant society, but the treatment they get in some of these Changeling fanfictions tend to be a far cry away from that, sometimes to a point where I'm just like "Mate, these are not the same characters as in the show". I mean, take for instance, in these stories:

Celestia and Luna - One, if not both, becomes a genocidal, maniacal tyrant, pretty much on the level of the Tyrant Celestia fics out there.

Shining Armor - He's becomes a hateful monster who uses his authority to sadistically instigate persecuting Changelings, until the obligatory face-heel turn where he sees the light and has a complete personality swap and he almost never gets called out on his attitude and bigotry.

The Royal Guards - Dear sweet God, the Royal Guards. I'm telling you, next to Celestia, these guys get some of the worst treatment in fanon. When they're not a bunch of corrupt, sadistic bullies out to get the main characters in every other fic, when it comes to Changeling fics, forget it, they're pretty much the Gestapo of Equestria and gleefully undertaking the persecution and/or genocide. Seriously, I've seen very few fics, Changeling-focuses or not, where these guys are treated as anything besides complete bastards. Is it because of our anti-authority/police stance or what?

- And almost every single pony outside of the OC the Changeling OC befriends and the Mane Six, tend to be very two-faced and brutish.

No matter to what degree, from either type mentioned, the ponies are almost always portrayed as being the ones at fault somehow, while the Changelings’ actions are either justified, excused and glanced over.

Sorry, for the lengthy rant, it just really gets to me, but it’s not even my real point, and that is the question of why? Why do we like portraying the ponies this way when it comes to a fanfic where Changelings are shown as not being an Always Chaotic Evil species? Why can’t both species have good and bad in them instead of one being completely horrible and one majestically good with only a few exceptions for each? Is it only to make the Changelings look better? Or because we like a good underdog story?

Because a usual trend in the fantasy genre involves picking and choosing a definitive good and evil side. There are variations, of course, but this has always been a very safe and reliable strategy for writers.

EDIT: As 941744 said, please title this with a "Discussion:" tag.

This topic is not following rule 8! Please do adjust accordingly!

You can find rules here.

I have yet to post a fic with Changelings in it, but I have one planned that basically involves ponies and changelings having to work together to battle a common enemy. Also I agree that neither party should be made out to be the bad guy.

941731 Well...

Put it this way. If a race of creatures we'd never had contact with, or had very little contact with, appeared out of nowhere, and infiltrated/attacked us without warning, wouldn't we go to war with them? Wouldn't we invade their land, capture and interrogate their members, kill or imprison their populous?

If the president's daughter or someone befriended one of these creatures, would we drop our weapons and make peace? Hell no! We'd keep on fighting until the enemy surrendered - then we could talk negotiating.

Read the forum rules. Label the topic of your thread.

This usually happens because of a number of reasons TVtropes explains nicely.
Look here, and maybe click around a bit (but don't get caught up too long) - Draco In Leather Pants
There's also a short entry addressing the problem with the changelings directly.

Queen Chrysalis. "She just wanted to feed her children!" say the fans. While she did mention feeding her subjects, she put more focus on gathering power for herself, while laughing cruelly, and then proceeds to enslave all of Canterlot; she doesn't display the slightest shred of remorse for any of her actions and seems entirely incapable of empathy.
The Changeling race as a whole also gets the Leather Pants treatment, mostly due to the implications of Blue and Orange Morality that comes naturally with Emotion Eaters, with some Just Following Orders mixed in for good measure.

(The phrases in italic are tropes you can look up on Tvtropes, if you have the time.)

They were pretty furious about Discord after he was released. Why not be mad at an army that almost took over Equestria and its love?

941743
Make sure you reply to their post as well next time, Distrance deary. Sooner the OP is notified, the better.

941744
Good work linking the rules, but replying to the OP makes this go by quicker, hun.

I feel so affectionate today. Can one of you hug me?

941731 The whole concept is sad really. I mean if the Changelings were a race of parasite animals, insects, or even bacteria it would be fine. However, you have an entire race who absolutely has to feed off the emotional well being of others; through deception no less. If they were a race of ethereally beautiful creatures it would change things as well (Please omit Chrysalis clopfics). To the Ponies though, they are creepy green eyed, fang sporting little monsters that are going to get them, and like you said, Ponies are generally fearful of what they don't understand.

Now I think a lot of people, and writers can relate to the Changelings. They are looked down upon as ugly outcasts. They have a complete co-dependence on something acts more like a drug addiction than a food source. This is why I think the changelings caught on more than any of the other races in Equestria. They have a relate able quality about them that makes them easier to write than say a Dragon, or a Griffin. So whenever I read a fic that has flipped the roles of the two races, I just try to look for the fact that the author is trying to tell it from the Changelings point of view. Unless it's just a crappy fic, then it needs the AU tag...

941731

I'm going to preface my reply with the assertion that I agree with you that it really doesn't make sense from a character standpoint for ponies to be as racist as they are in a lot of these changeling fics.

With that said I'm going to try playing devil's advocate here. I think that, because of the nature of the MLP universe, fanfiction writers like to use it as an example to make a larger point about the real world (which really is the purpose of storytelling as a whole). To do so they sometimes need to distort the MLP-verse through the lens of the real world. Such is the case when writers want to write about large scale racism and oppression, which are concepts that most people wish we didn't have to address, but unfortunately are very relevant to our history and the shortcomings of our species. In order to address these concepts, however, the writer must establish who is oppressed and who is the oppressor. And, unless he or she is doing an AU or different time period fic, there really isn't an option that makes sense for the oppressor to be any species other than ponies, as they are obviously the strong majority in Equestria. There aren't many options for oppressed either. Donkeys and mules seem to be victims of more subtle racism, but not overt oppression. Griffons, dragons, and Buffalo are rare but not unfamiliar or hated. Bat ponies have connections to the royal sisters. This leaves us with changelings being the only real established race that the ponies have a concrete reason to hate. So if you want to make a statement about culture-wide ignorance and disdain (which I feel is a topic worth addressing) in a universe relatively close to cannon you don't have much of a choice but making ponies as a whole hateful towards changelings.

Does this mean I agree with characters being taken waaayyy out of their normal characterizations? No, no I don't. The mark of a good writer is one who can blend how the characters should be acting with how they need to act to get the message across. Just because most writers make mistakes in addressing a concept doesn't mean the concept is inherently bad.

Changelings are the Under Dog!
They are a well drawn out complicated creature, that no one knows where they came from...

But we know there is a hive mentality, like the Borg, and that the Queen was kept in an under ground cavern/prison.

941731
I applaud you.

Anyway, this is what I feel over the Luna=Saint while Celestia = Antichrist, even though Luna usually does badass shit and is a complete antihero. In all actuality those roles should be reversed but people dont like it. HTey love their molestia and trollestia too much, and OH GAWD don't touch their woona. Ive already broken through that thin ice, Just Look at "Celestia kills Luna", I have more dislikes because people are either 1. Pussies who freak out over LunAbuse, or B. dumb Cunts who decided to comment and not read the story.....even though everyone who read it realized that it was satire, and both Sisters were put in a good light.

I give up on the Human Race

941781

Well, duh! It's like 1:30 am and I'm supertired. Obviously I meant to reply to his post. -_-'

941781

*grumble* *grumble*

941818
Fine, I didn't want a hug from you anyways. I even said good work to you. I should get back on topic for this thread though. Curse me and my own rules of spamming. We can battle in the IRC.

Sheesh
~Cosmic

941731
I don't understand it either. In my opinion I can't possibly see the changelings as redeemable beings and considering they've only been shown to us as having one being who can speak, and the rest as slathering drones who only take orders and attack things. There is no evidence that there are characters there except Chrysalis. I am not a fan of those stories.

the concept of the racist ponies I can understand but only to certain degrees. As for tyrantlestia, I could see our beloved sun princess being somewhat distrusting but only so far. Luna I could see being violent towards them but only after provocation.

The sad but simple truth is that people in this day and age utterly hate authority the perceived majority. Ponies represent the majority in the context of the show; since the changelings opposed them, they are seen as heroes because of it while the ponies are seen as out of touch and ignorant hypocrites. The royal guard, Shining Armor and the Princesses in particular represent authority and are loathed because of it.

The whole thing is basically wish-fulfillment by people who (justifiably or not) feel that the system/those in power/the majority has wronged them and deserve to be demonized for it.

941744>>941756>>941743 My apologies, I didn't know. I will place it under Discussion.

941810 941852
Where did you get that from? Very little can be confirmed about the Changelings. Just because you didn’t see them speak doesn’t mean they can’t. They were obviously soldiers of some description and it is quite unprofessional for a soldier to gloat or simply chit chat with their enemies in the middle of a battle. They could also be communicating in other ways such as the buzzing of wings or even a telepathic link. What they are is not curently set in stone by cannon.

Their situation can also make for extremely interesting characters if you’re willing to try it, and not just the one redeemable in a sea of monsters. I’m not saying they can’t or even shouldn’t be used as a faceless villain if the author needs them to be, I just see it as a waste. They have potential.

If there’s one thing I hate its set in stone good and evil. Blegh, nothing more boring or two dimensional.

941924
Ah, but what little we can confirm is what to go off. That sounds rather ignorant but I work with what I've got and I've been given monsters and I love writing with monsters. From my view they are only monsters who are out to drain emotion and enslave or kill beings.

As for a communication and whatnot, they've been shown to be buglike, I haven't read the comics but the show has made them to be that way and bugs use pheromones and scents to communicate which would mean not a whole lot of speaking.

Their living situation, what little we know of it, if we use the bug thing again, is that they live in a hive or some similar situation where they come out identical over and over again with the only influence really would be their mother or being who is directly above them in their hierarchy, if they use such a system. How could there be any real character development. They would all be subjected to the same thoughts from the same source about the same thing. "We need emotion/ love to survive. We are going to take it either by stealth or by force." If one individual thinks for itself that does not benefit the hive then that individual will be singled out and killed because they do not conform, they do not listen to Chrysalis who is the mother.

And that's not 'evil' from that viewpoint. The changelings know they are in the right, from their viewpoint, whereas the ponies or victims think they are wrong because they have been wronged in that sense.

"Hi! I'm a soul feeding predator that's capable of ripping your memories out of your head, mesmerizing you, teleporting you into a contained area far, far away, and taking on your shape so I can feast on your other friends and family. Oh, and I can only be stopped by deus ex machina. Won't you be my friend? Why are you getting torches? It's not dark yet."

941852
This.

Anytime I see one of those OC-is-actually-a-changeling-adopted by-ponies-who-just-discovered-he-is-a-changeling-and-now-ponies-will-beat-him-with-carrots I roll my eyes so hard that I can hear my corneas scrapping my eye sockets and I involuntarily yell MUH EMO ANTS.

The only sentient being they had was their Queen and they behaved mostly like drones. That being said, I believe that them being a hivemind makes much more sense than them being just like any other race.
Sure they had some personality but that usually happens when you are on a children's cartoon.

My own headcanon about Changelings is that they're the results of a curse cast by a mad pony. In any case, my own idea about all of this Changeling thing in the season 2 finale is that Chrysalis decided to invade after Celestia refused to give them sanctuary in Equestria since they're being hunted down by the gryffon nation.

I honestly don't know why.

I guess they want to make whats evil good and whats good evil.

941994 Still, my point is it's wasted potential to draw them up and use them so simply. Interesting character can and have been derived from the idea that Changelings have as complex (if somewhat alien) mind-sets as ponies do.

I have nothing against it really but it annoys me to see them used as such.

My fault isn’t in the feasibility of them being monsters; it’s in people’s dismissal of them being able to be anything else.

942001 Hi, I’m capable of making sharp pointy instruments from rocks and sticks in mere minutes. I am able to brutally bludgeon you to death with them. I could also do unspeakable acts to you both before and after your death.

Doesn’t mean I want to or even will.

They sure won't be that way in my fic, well to a degree.

You can spin it either way, you can feel bad for them, or not. Personally an entire race that can blend in and remain hidden (if they are really good) pretty much indefinitely doesn't warrant much empathy imo.

In any conflict, information is key, and changelings are PERFECT spies. If they have spies in place they could know every move their enemy makes before they do it. I dunno, in my opinion they seem more than formidable to the point where I don't think I need to feel sorry for them.

942019
I can understand that, but I feel it works the way I say purely from what we've been shown and my opinion of villains or beings portrayed as villains is that they will always be villains.

EDIT: I will say that there are only two exceptions to a redeemed villain that were done acceptably, in my opinion. Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender and Crona from Souleater.

942035

Yet changelings don't have that choice. If they don't they starve. To not is to go counter to their nature. Sure there CAN be sparkly changelings but that's not going to be enough to unjustify the initial reaction of "kill it with fire!".

942043 Being a show about the magic of friendship, one that has reformed two major villains I am willing to testify against the developers using them as monsters that can only be hated.

942035
Scope, nigga, we don't need to kill and rape things to live.
Changelings on the other hand NEED to kidnap, supplant, infiltrate and feed of the souls of ponies to survive.

I think you need to think inside the limitations a race on a fantasy setting has and how to exploit them instead of trying to force them to fit into a slot they don't really make too much sense to be in.

942011
Mind if I share my changeling headcanon which involves Lovecraft-tier hive queens, hereditary hiveminds and antler fish?
I really think that having a goddamn scary hivemind of hungry vermins ruled by a smart and immature evil mastermind lurking under Equestria is pretty cool compared to them having a tragic past.

942047 942057 Humans need to eat vegetables and meat. Doesn’t mean I’ll kill or otherwise cheat farmers and butchers to get it.

There’s this really abstract idea called friendship, you may have heard of it.

941749 Really, I have one where a war is instigated by Changlings but the ponies were the ones fighting and killing each other. Mostly over ancient grudges, political agendas, and the like that wouldn't have been a problem and could've have easily been solved peacefully without the Changling agents purposely starting the war. I don't know how to classify that one.

Silver out!

942061
Think of this.
What if you could only feed from the fact that you cheated and stole from others?
Not the food you swindled out of them. The fact that you cheated is what you eat.

Edit:
942073
Ever thought of having a major changeling infiltrating the royals by posing as an important and reputable politician/sage/witch doctor/mister ed impersonator or whatever influential figure ponies use?

942061
Both those villains were shown as thinking individuals though, focus on individual and thinking. Again the changelings have shown little thinking other than invade and take for ourselves. Also remember that Chrysalis was in Celestia's and Shining Armor's presence and within Canterlot for some time, a place that should be rife with friendship. If they put Chrysalis in the same position as Discord then Chrysalis could change and then her subjects would follow her.

The changelings are shown to feed off of love and affection, who would volunteer their emotions to be sucked out to feed the changelings?

942061

That has nothing to do with the price of tea in China. We're dealing with a species that can only feed on one thing. The best they could hope for would be a form of domestication. Where they're feed love for proper behavior, leading to an Operand conditioning that over rides their predatory nature.

942057
There's not enough antler fish on the internet. Awesome.

942090
Well, in fairness, it would depend on where she was sucking my love from.

942076 Under such strict conditions? Fine, yes, I’d do it. I already cheat people over far more petty thing though admittedly that’s all in good humour.

I don’t see how this is relevant to the Changelings. You don’t need to cheat someone to get them to love you.

And if you say love from mere friendship could not possibly be enough to feed them then how come one couple can repel an entire army and one stallion enough to overthrow an individual who moves the sun around on a regular basis.

Besides, it isn’t even said in the show that they need love to live, only that they feed on it to make themselves more powerful. Admittedly this means Chrysalis and any Changelings accompanying her were indeed a bunch of meanies. Wouldn’t mean they all are.

941852 Then by that logic, there shouldn't be anything that goes past the show canon, period.
Pfft. That means all the HiE, shipping stories, and anything else that isn't canon is invalid, and is only worthy of being purged from the system.

Delete it all. Purge these worthless imbeciles who dare to defy Hasbro Canon.

942090 942096 942076

Fine I give up. I’m fighting a three against one battle here and its half past two in the morning for me. Let’s just agree to disagree.

Just don’t criticise me for being an optimist and thinking with the rite management everyone can have a shot at life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

942139 I wish you luck, it's a tough crowd. Good night.

941731 I would say that IMO... Both sides of the Changeling-Pony clash just don't stop to listen to each other. The behavior is similar with humans... and I really don't mean to offend anyone here...

The single person is: Rational, mostly respectful and understanding (Of course, there are always exceptions to this...)
Groups of people: Don't listen to the opinions of others, only believe that they are right and have caused more deaths than any serial killer throughout history. (once again... there are exceptions to this rule.)

I believe that is what these fictions tend to show, the ones that I've read concerning the Changelings viewpoint is not that the ponies tried to stomp them out... but that both sides refused to talk long enough to reach a peacable agreement because they only saw the flaws in the opposing side.

942143

Just don’t criticise me for being an optimist and thinking with the rite management everyone can have a shot at life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Unless you're born an ant.

942096
Alright.
Remember that female antler fish absorb their mates inside of them and use the male as a fertilizing organ so they can lay eggs anytime they want?
Now, in my headcanon, Chrysalis was never a proper queen.
A changeling queen is a massive blob of wretched flesh, caparaces and eyes that lives plotting and laying eggs; a female changeling like Chrysalis would need to find a reliable male of another species and fuse with him to turn into a trv kvlt queen.
My explanation for Chrysalis having a hive of her own despite being immature is simple survival. Changelings are a hivemind but aren't loyal to the death and have some degree of independence.

And I just realized that it's angler fish, goddammit

942143
I will not begrudge you your opinion, and I will agree to disagree with you.
942139
As I said, this is my opinion, and I write what I've seen. I'm not saying that going outside of canon is bad by any means, but I do feel that changelings have been shown to us as a pretty straightforward set of beings as limited of a view as we've seen, just like Sombra. We've seen so little that people will just judge off of what we've seen. Changelings and Sombra are my two favorite villains because when writing them we know that they are evil and nothing else.

942096
This made me laugh more than it should have

942185
Hmm, kinda like oh, crap, whats-er-name from Sigler's Nocturnal? I tend to think more White Court Vampire, but I can totally see that.

942149 I'm on your side. I've based my cannon on the ONLY episode they've been in.
An yes I consider a 2 part episode still 1 episode. They are a hive, driven by a Queen who was improsioned under the Palace, that was all established in the show! Come on! What are they talking about where am I getting my ideas from.
I totally agree with you about them being a bug/pony hybrid. They are simply more evolved than your average cicada. And appear to have the family structure of bees.

The things we have in question is how long do they live? What is their natural habbitat? And how where are the baby changelings?

941781 How much of one and for how long? I've got to get some sleep...

Y'know, it's amazing how much we seem to get out of this topic, and it still basically comes down to "I'm right!" "No, I'm right!" Opinions=flank-holes, and we've all got one.
Sheesh, just write your fics and try to be even-handed, and let the readership decide who's wrong or at fault. It's not as though anyone's writing LITERATURE here.
Me? I won't be writing any fics involving Changelings until I find out if there's more to go by.

I'd like to think of changelings as intelligent, since their method of feeding or whatever would require them to disguise themselves as a pony and manipulate that pony's friends and loved ones. It would require a lot of cunning and careful acting.

Then again, the only changeling we ever saw go undercover for an extended period of time was Chrysalis, and she didn't do a very good job of pretending to be Cadence. She was too obviously evil. And, as for the rest of the changelings... Well, I guess they showed some personality when they impersonated the Mane Six in the fight scene, but we never really got them pulling off anything really deceptive and clever. I guess you could argue that changelings aren't all that smart if you wanted to.

There's probably some good potential for a comedy fic with changelings being horrendously bad actors, and obviously after the S2 finale everypony would know what a changeling was.

I haven't finished the comic series yet, but the changelings seem smarter and more evil in those. It's debatable whether those are canon, though.

As long as you want to write your own theories about changelings, we've got until Winter before the show comes back and potentially invalidates anything you come up with, so you might as well go for it.

I haven't finished the comic series yet, but the changelings seem smarter and more evil in those. It's debatable whether those are canon, though.

This is a point in itself. Does "what we have to go on" officially count the comics? Do fics that go by the show and not the comics need an Alternate Universe tag because they're violating canon (e.g. any fic that has a different origin for NMM than the Nightmare Forces?)

It's possible that what Chrysalis was doing to Shining Armor didn't need to be as debilitating as it was. Anyone read The Changeling Brothel? Interesting idea about how the changelings could secure what they need in a peaceful, mutually beneficial way - assuming their absorption of love works that way.

As for "it's never said the need to feed on love; all we know is it makes them stronger?" Eh... yes and no.

Cadance: "She's a changeling! She takes the form of somepony you love and gains power by feeding off your love for them!" -Implies nothing more than power acquisition

Chrysalis: "As queen of the changelings, it is up to me to find food for my subjects." -Could be taken either way

Chrysalis: "This day has been just perfect, the kind of day of which I've dreamed since I was small... Everypony I'll soon control, every stallion, mare and foal, who says a girl can't really have it all?"

I think we can all agree that Chrysalis definitely enjoys her work a little too much. xD

Another question though. If the changelings do need to eat just to survive... they've done a pretty good job so far, else they'd be extinct. They've been feeding elsewhere ("Equestria has more love than any place we've ever encountered"), yet no one seems to mind. As long as it's not us they're attacking.

(Not that I believe in mindless altruism and selflessness. To me, nature trumps morality; and self-preservation is nature.)