Though it feels blasphemous to touch one of the most Holy of Holies', Cosmic's, venerable threads, I suppose we can't keep it the same forever. We have a new crop of admins, and it was about time we clarified some rules and boiled them down as much as possible so people might actually read them.

We will now lay out the rules of The Writer's Group, for which there is only one punishment:

Death.

Okay, actually not. If you get something wrong a time or two, don't worry your cute equine heads. Mistakes happen, and we understand that. Bans will not be forthcoming unless you are particularly harmful, or continuously flout the rules. We'll very likely have to lock or delete threads to keep the feeds free and clear, however.

All the site rules for things like attacking other users, posting NSFW images/links and other such things, of course, still apply.

0) Don't forget your common sense
Seriously folks. I shouldn't have to mention this, but remember to stop and think once in a while. Admins will use their best judgement to keep the group humming along smoothly. Use yours too before you do something like link to malicious websites try to raise a mob to mass downvote a story you don't like, or see if you can fit every rude or insulting word you know into a single post about comma use. Likewise, try to stay at least reasonably polite and readable, for the sake of everyone else.

1) Don't spam
That means in threads and without. Don't post absurd filler, or the same thread over and over. Don't fill up threads with reaction images with no content. If you're having a long personal conversation, take it to PMs and leave the resulting threads manageable for everyone else. If someone starts a spam flood, don't join it.

2) Don't treat us as your blog
You wrote a new story that you really want everyone to see. You got on EqD or into Twilight's Library. You got your first date. You have this weird growth on your toe, look! All of that is great. However, put it in your own personal blog. We're a group with thousands upon thousands of users, most of whom don't want to see your toe growth. Please keep advertising and personal posts where they belong. Not here.

3) Don't post threads unrelated to writing or ponies
We're a group for writers on a story site about cute, colourful ponies. Please keep that in mind before you post, and keep it on those topics.
We understand that in many ways we're the default conversation spot for the site, so we'll certainly allow a degree of general site related talk, but do keep it to a stately murmur. A few games are acceptable, but likewise try to keep it to a reasonable amount, and mark them [Game].

4) Don't ask people to do your work for you
There are several groups on the site that provide collab, beta/pre-reading, proofreading or editing services. Please avail yourself of them. Likewise, please don't badger people to write your story or favorite idea for you, do readings, come up with your title or description or any other such thing where you seek someone's labor. This is a quality-of-life rule, but an important one. Without it we turn into a classified ads service.

Mind, however, that asking for advice on a broad topic is different from asking people to do the work for you ('How does one write a good description?' is fine. 'Write me a good description!' is not). Also, feel free to offer those services.

5) Don't post prohibited threads
a) Promotion
It falls under 'We are not your blog'. These will be deleted without warning.
Even 'subtle' promotion saying 'Why did I get these downvotes', then ignoring everyone while quietly gaining upvotes and views. Seriously. Everyone knows what you're doing.

b) 'Is this a good idea?/Has this been done?' threads
These threads are done to death. By and large the answers are: 'A good writer can make anything work' and 'Probably, but your version will be different' respectively. Yay! We've just eliminated half the filler threads.

c) 'CosmicAfro is not the best admin, past, present or future.' threads
Oh ho ho. You kidder. But seriously, we dislike heretical lies.

And there we are! Less than half the rules, but the same great-tasting tyranny.

If you have any questions, want to know if something is okay, or think you have a good reason to need to break the stated rules for a good cause, please PM one of the recently active admins.

3888568
And where is rule number 9?
Aka BEST RULE?

3888581
I trust in the intelligence of the average user to figure out that backrub moderators are for moderation of backrubbing services!

The whole point was to streamline the rules as much as possible, to make them easier to remember.

3888599
Lumie, they need to know. The amount of questions I'll recieve will be staggering without that rule posted.
Don't take this away from me, Lumie.
Please.
I'm a simple lemon. I've never asked for much.
Rule number 9 was all I had.

3888568

Maybe you could unsticky the old thread, too?

I wonder how many threads will accidentally get locked under rule seven, now that that it's no longer rule seven?

--Sweetie Belle

3888568

Thanks for putting up these rules. I will try to keep them as you see fit.

3888613
'Tis in the works! Lumie is updating links all over.

I wonder how many threads will accidentally get locked under rule seven, now that that it's no longer rule seven?

Lots and lots!
I've tried to tell everyone though. We'll probably forget for a while, myself included.

3888607

Rule number 9 was all I had.

You have the position and the mention on the front page.

3888647
I'll start a petition, gosh darn it.

3888647

Oh, okay. I just wanted to be sure you remembered.

Also, since this is the new admin rules, shouldn't 5c be: c) 'Luminary is not the best admin, past, present or future.' threads?

--Sweetie Belle

3888678

Also, since this is the new admin rules, shouldn't 5c be: c) 'Luminary is not the best admin, past, present or future.' threads?

No, silly. Lumie is but a disciple grovelling at the feet of the great CosmicAfro (Blessed be his name). It wouldn't be right to be making false claims.

3888678
And 5.d, Backrubs are not a practiced sport in TWG threads.

3888568
Okie dokie lokie, master!

3888568
Ok.

3888691

But CosmicAfro's not the main admin any more. The apprentice has become the master, or something like that?

--Sweetie Belle

3888568

I just thought of something. You're gonna hafta redo this thread, too, 'cause it links to the old rules, not the new rules...

--Sweetie Belle

3888568 seems legit to me. I really should think of better rules for my own groups.

3888613 seems like we're all changing avatars for the Holidays.

3888607

Rule number 9 was all I had.

Don't be a fool, lemon-head! You had so much more!

Just embrace your lemonness! Let the citrus flow through you! Because you are not the lemon we need, but you're the lemon we deserve!

3888824
Yup! Lumie knows. I'll probably nix it entirely, and just keep Cosmic's L.I.T. thing stickied instead. Most of the rest is just obsolete. Just debating with myself if we specifically need a FAQ or anything like that before I kill. Currently leaning to 'no'.

But yes, that's the next thing on the docket.

But CosmicAfro's not the main admin any more. The apprentice has become the master, or something like that?

I'm modest.

3888840
I hate to admit it, but you're right.

3888854

Just making sure. I kinda doubt an FAQ is needed, unless you want to do a silly one, with questions 'bout afro's an' stuff.

Oh, and your dock's too small to really put things on. They'll probably slip down an' pin down your tail instead, which is always awkward. Maybe you should put them in a list instead.

3888833
Well, I kinda thought you were supposed to redraw your avatar with a santa hat for the holidays, so I did. Turns out you just needed to stick one on it, but I already redrew it, so I'll keep it. I'm going back to my old one afterwards...

--Sweetie Belle

3888920 I just went with something that suited me for this time of year.

3888920

Oh, and your dock's too small to really put things on.

A-are you implying something about the size or suitability of my tail?
It being constantly on fire is a glandular problem!

But yes, the FAQ and such is no more. And I thiiink I've updated everything I should.

3888873
I increased the prominence of your backrub moderation position by 25%, on the main page.

I totally promised myself I would delete it after a week or so, when I first gave it to you. But it would be like tearing a cherished teddy bear out of the arms of a kid at this point. It would be just too cruel to do.

3888938
Huh. 25%, eh?
That'll do.
Guilt tripping actually works.

3888938

No, no, all docks are like that, 'cept maybe the type of docks you anchor ships on. An' I've stepped on my own tail or somepony else's enough times to know the importance of not having your tail pinned down. Tho' I suppose if your tail was on fire, not having it pinned down'd be even more important.

There's always this thread, which hasn't been updated in a long time. But that'd probably take days...

--Sweetie Belle

3888568 Finally, we can direct the people who put ridiculous blog post type threads to this.

3888984
I pinned that there (it wasn't stickied before, just linked to) since it was really the only one in Cosmic's list that was still vaguely applicable.
And I simply couldn't imagine a front page without that starry 'fro.

An' I've stepped on my own tail

Fire naturally rises. It sorta takes care of itself.

3888986
You could have before. Essentially they're the same rules, just with some of the excess trimmed off for readability.

3889011

Thing is, it was last updated August of last year, an' it'll never be updated again. Any threads that are meant to be updated every so often should be by current admins, not former ones. Maybe you could just put a picture of his afro on the front page, instead.

The main troubles with your tail being pinned down are that first, you can't move away till it's unpinned, it hurts when you try to move 'cause it gets yanked, and in your case, whatever it's pinned to would catch fire...

--Sweetie Belle

3889030
Its updates were entirely powered by the radiant energy of Cosmic's own guilt at not doing as much as he thought he should as an admin (Which was silly, since he did more than anyone, ever, for the group). Alas, I don't have Cosmic's sense of guilt, nor his adorable sense of innovation. So I shall leave it there as a reference, for the things it already links to.

Should I, or one of the admins, develop that productive drive at a future date, they can copy, paste and update it.

whatever it's pinned to would catch fire...

This is practically the definition of 'Things that are not really a problem'.
Not enough things are on fire.

3889054

How do you copy an' paste a thread that's mostly links? If I'm copying and pasting a thread, it usually was mine, so I just hit edit first, but you can't do that with his, and a normal copy and paste'll just get the text, not the actual link.

You don't really want books on fire, though. Unless it's a really bad one, like those trashy romance novels Rarity thinks I don't know about under her bed...

--Sweetie Belle

3889090
You could likely pull the page source. After that it's a creative 'Find and replace' or two away from marking it up in BBCode.
Or one would bug Cosmic on Skype, far more simply, for a copy-paste.

You don't really want books on fire, though.

Fuel Books are an obsolete medium. Ebook readers are where it's at.

Also, I like romance novels.
(Kinda. Philosophically speaking.)
The trashier the better!

3889097

Fuel Books are an obsolete medium. Ebook readers are where it's at.

Hey now, I still enjoy the feel of a good book once in a while. If I may quote one of Kasumi Goto's lines from Mass Effect 2:

Don't laugh, I like those books. Romance novels, crime novels, the classics. There's something about the feel of actual paper in your hands, their musty smell. It's relaxing.

3889097

Maybe you do need more CosmicAfro in the group. If you wanted to make sure everypony was reminded of him, you could do something like this:

An', you know, books don't need batteries...

--Sweetie Belle

3888568

So if I interpret rule 4 correctly: If someone does break this rule, we are encouraged to still provide them as much assistance as possible before you guys take action?

Also:

Mind, however, that asking for advice on a topic is different from asking people to do the work for you.

You are going to have to clarify this, since it stipulates exceptions. How exactly do you define advice?

3890413

Maybe you do need more CosmicAfro in the group

Yes.
But alas, he said that eventually all birds must learn to fly on their own, and that, while he loved us, he had to set us free to make our own choices.

It was very inspiring. But sad. There was a soaring violin piece in the background.

3890246
Lumie is a Twi-esque bookworm. My nose is always in a book. I walk down the street, everywhere I go, reading.

But... there's really no contest to being able to cram a hundred books casually into my pocket, and read at night, and not have pages flip closed on me.

3890615
Nyah~! Apparently I'm very ambitious on days where I haven't slept. But I make no promises as to my judgement.

So if I interpret rule 4 correctly: If someone does break this rule, we are encouraged to still provide them as much assistance as possible before you guys take action?

Um. No?

Not sure what kind of crazy logic leads there, or what I'd have to do to correct it. It's pretty much the same phrasing as before. Except replacing 'help' with 'work' to prevent future admin staff from jumping on people just wanting to talk about a broad writing topic.

You are going to have to clarify this. How exactly do you define advice? Clearly there are exceptions to this rule.

ad·vice
ədˈvīs/
noun
guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.

^ usually like that.

But I included examples for the brainally challenged now.

3890626

Um. No?

Not sure what kind of crazy logic leads there, or what I'd have to do to correct it. It's pretty much the exact phrasing as before.

Oh, I found this rule to be vague and counter-intuitive in the original wording too.

Basically, providing the kind of help we are not supposed to ask for is not only allowed, but specifically encouraged in the same rule. Thus, even if someone else breaks this rule, I should help them out to the best of my ability. I really don't see how else I'm supposed to "feel free to provide help" even though "asking for help" is not allowed.

guidance or recommendations concerning prudent future action, typically given by someone regarded as knowledgeable or authoritative.

^ usually like that.

So, what you are saying is, as long as it can be argued that the request for help falls under that definition, it is not against the rules?

3890647
You're a little sore about me locking that thread yesterday, aren't you?
Lumie's sorry they had to do that.

3888568

I noticed that cursing isn't even mentioned.

3888599
Can I be a backrub moderator?

3890671
You might have to apprentice under the lemon.

3890669
Fuckin' eh.
Holding people to more or less common decency is under the aegis of the golden rule.

Plus I guess I have less of a problem with it than Cosmic did. So long as people aren't jerkbags, I don't mind if TWG is PG-13.

3890672
Uhm... Kay.

3888607
Can I be a backrub moderator?

3890647
Um, I tried to reword things.
I have no idea if that improved it, like, at all, since I didn't really get the problem to begin with. I mean, it's not like we're going to accept rules-lawyering as a valid defense.

But tell me if it's clearer?

3890672

I've actually been waiting for a mod to tell me to simmer down for a while now. Apparently the level of cursing I must engage in to invoke such a response now is the exact amount needed to make me look like a complete moron.

3890717
We've been whispering amongst ourselves for months and waiting for the perfect moment to drop the hammer to really make you look like a total wanker. When it happens, it'll be totally spectacular though.

3890722

I plan on downing two fifths of MD 20/20 after I take my brother to the doctor, and I apparently have a nasty habit of writing whiny, arrogant blog posts when I'm drunk. Making me out to appear as wankerest wanker that you ever did see shouldn't take much effort, if any.

3890740
Well gosh, we're super-thankful for the help you want to provide!
But honestly, it loses its appeal if you don't remember it.

3890756

I wish I 'blacked-out' like I did in the years that I first started drinking. Some of the crap that's come out of my mouth has made me want to curl up in a ball and die. Nowadays, I don't seem to have the luxury of not remembering the night.

3890655

Actually, I think this is more about the thread I did before that. You remember that one? The one where I had a problem with a line for Paper Promises, which you personally solved for me, and everything was fine? That was nice. I think that's why the incident yesterday was a bit confusing for me. I'm not sure I see the exact technical difference between asking for help with a piece of dialogue and asking for help with a title. Either way, it's not like I asked anyone to write the story for me, I just needed to toss ideas around for a little while.

Look, I'm not bitter or anything. It's just that I pride myself in always playing by the rules. In all the years I've spent hanging around various fora online, have never once been banned, or even gotten in any kind of serious trouble with the mods. Like many Asperger people, I don't handle ambiguity well - I interpret rules literally and follow them to the letter, even when I don't agree with them. But that's why it's important for me to understand the rules. If one thread is okay but another almost identical one is not, I get very confused.

Either something is allowed or it isn't, and I shouldn't have to guess. If some types of help threads are okay and others aren't, then you have to be clear on which is which. That's all I ask.

3890992
Warning: Hot Long (TL;DR at end)
I do recall that thread, in broad strokes.
It was probably against the rules then too.

The problem is enforcement. Namely, the reliability of said enforcement. Namely, by Lumie.

There are lots of times when things straddle the line. Or when things are more or less harmless, and can be shrugged off.

You're a person of rather good standing here. You post thoughtful, intelligent answers to people's questions. You're active in the community. You're helpful and polite. You have some leeway, and I'm not going to apologize for that. Just like how people reap what they sow for bad behavior, so it is with good behavior.

So when you came looking for someone to help you with that line about the uncle, or (whatever), we let it slide. It was small, harmless and posted by someone in good standing.

This time? Well, it was a bit more overt in its rule violation. It was a bit more promotion-y, by offering a synopsis. And the requesting for getting other people to come up with something for you from whole cloth was more clearer. It was also less fun, which is a factor too. People were enjoying themselves in that first thread. That's a factor. But I probably would have still let it slide.

But then The Red Knight broke the rules with a help request. They're a user in very, very bad standing. They're someone who was banned for a long time, and the adminship was very divided about unbanning him. And he broke the rules within the first few hours. So I locked the thread. But having to come down on one person made it much, much harder to ignore the rule violation that popped up one post down on the feed. Someone could very reasonably say 'Hey, look, how come THAT one didn't get locked? It's the same thing!' and they'd have a point.

If you hate ambiguity more than you like having a bit of shoulder room, then I can be far more strict with you, and adhere strictly to the letter of the rules in your case.

But really, it's not the rules that are the problem. The rule is that you don't ask people to do work for you.

The problem is that a little flaming horse-thing believes that admins should not be lawyer-drones, and should use their best judgement.
Seriously, I revile rules-lawyering. If something gets to the point where some jerk can use the letter of the forum law to stop an admin in their tracks, to keep them from doing something obviously to the benefit of the group, things have gone horribly wrong along the way.

And conversely, from the other side, admins are users too. They don't want to be the gestapo, usually. We're all here for fun, and if fun is increased for both admins and users by loosening the reins now and again, I'm also fine with that.

I know that makes it a bit crappier for you, but... well... I would hope it makes it better for lots of other people. Which is something I need to consider too.

TL;DR
Because judgement calls are a thing admining won't always be perfectly consistent.

3888568

c) 'CosmicAfro is not the best admin, past, present or future.' threads

Oh ho ho. You kidder. But seriously, we dislike heretical lies.

Oh. So, uh, that means I can't promote people who inflate my ego by insisting that I'm best admin?

C'mon, it'd only be like, three people.

3891069
Certainly not! That would be wrong!

Says the person who will probably promote 3890413 one day completely without her consent just because she's adorable.
Well, and because she runs all her other groups so well.