This isn’t a complaint or even a question really, I’m curious as to why a lot of people outright demand proper grammar. For me, it’s not a terribly big deal as long as all the words are there and the meaning is conveyed. If you miss a comma or an apostriphy I don’t even notice most of the time. If you say “Its raining” for example, yes technically that’s incorrect since it should be “It’s raining” but even so I know from context that they meant “it is raining” and not “ the rain belongs to It.”
Incorrect words don’t bother me ether. “Pinkies party canon is cannon.” That’s incorrect but again, 4 times out of 5 I wouldn’t notice it. Of course I do have my limits, something like “Rainbow found weapon on the ground and beat all bad guys up.” Yea that I would call out.
So just a curiosity, what is it about inproper grammar that gets us so riled up?

Disclamer: I do try to have proper grammar in my stories, I'm Just talking about reading them.

Because when I read something, I want to know that whoever wrote it gave a fuck. Poor grammar is a sign of the opposite.

3750494 Some people are like Twilight Sparkle: perfectionist to the point of it being an obsession. Even I admit it's a bit annoying (I can overlook it if it's sporadic, but not when it's compulsive). Others, for reasons of their own, look for reasons to complain (so it may not be personal).

Ruins the immersion if there is poor grammar.

3750519
See thats whats weird, for me it doesn't. I only pay attention to grammar when I'm writing something. When I'm reading, like I said, a rarly ever notice. I guess I'm just weird like that.

I'm pretty much with Meeester, but want to expand on the idea a bit.

If a story is well written, my mind basically animates and plays a movie of whatever it is I'm reading, complete with voices, scene cuts, etc. This happens to a varying degree depending on the content, writing style, etc. but even when it doesn't specifically occur there's still a backdrop of "realism" (however that applies to pastel pony porn storytelling) that adds to the impact of a tale.

Poorly constructed sentences and unrealistic dialogue interfere with my ability to build this imagery, and bad grammar makes it worse. Every time I have to think about what an author met, or that a word was misspelled, those cycles are not being used for creating the movie I want to watch.

I'm sure other people have different experiences and/or metaphors, but that's the best way I can explain what it means to, and does for, me.

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

3750532

Every time I have to think about what an author met

Glass houses etc.

Unless that was intentional

3750533
See untill you pointed that out I read it as meant. I think Im one of those people who read the sentences rather than the words. I wonder if theres a word for that.

I think everyone has different tolerances for grammar errors. For me, If they're few enough, I may mentally edit them out as I go through, with the end result being that I barely even notice them.

If it gets to be too many, though, I start spending more of my time figuring out what the author is trying to say than I do enjoying the story. That saps a good chunk of the fun and immersion out of reading. There is a threshold after which I find a story unreadable, in spite of how interesting the premise might be.

3750544 No idea. I mightn't have noticed if he'd written, say, 'ment', but he wrote an actual other word so of course I read what he wrote.

3750494
Because we like to make sure that others know that we're better than them.
Or at least, that's what a lot of people seem to think.
I mean, I'm not innocent here. We've all felt smug about it at least once.
We should really just politely correct others to help them learn and all that jazz.

So what I's seeing from everyone is that we'er all little snowflakes. Good, I thought I was the odd one out.

3750519 I think it just depends. Every story will have some grammar mistakes, but it doesn't always ruin a story. It all depends on the author.

3750494 Because without Grammar Nazis, proper language would die.

*apostrophe.

3750494

I think different people have different levels of tolerance for it. I'm far from being a skilled proofreader. I still need to fix errors in my own fic, and I've never read a fic that was without a single mistake. The more frequent the errors, the more distracting it gets, but I think the threshold for me is when it becomes clear that the writer never even looked over what they wrote, or just plain didn't give a fuck at all. I always remember that I'm reading work by amateurs, but I expect the writer to at least attempt to write something that, at first glance, appears to be something one would find in a book store.

Some grammar is bad enough that it breaks immersion simply by being difficult to read. Before that, however, it's hard to get into a fic that's readable, but with an obvious disregard for quality. Even if I can read it, it's hard to get into a story when it seems like the author thought a sixth-grader's level of competence in proofreading was good enough for their fic; if they didn't feel that it was worth the effort, then I don't feel that it's worth my time.

More often than not, bad grammar indicates that other aspects of the story is going to be shit as well. With so many fics on this site, most regular readers are not going to give a fic the time of day if the summary or first paragraph contains errors. I'm not one to consider grammar to be more important than the story, but there are plenty of reasons that writers should be grammar whores.

The word 'grammar whore' shouldn't even be used in the context of writing. Except in the context that I use the term here, it doesn't even belong on this forum. In writing, there's no such thing as being too anal about grammar. Any writer who thinks otherwise (not speaking to the OP) should reevaluate whether or not they actually want to write in the first place.

The negative stigma of the term probably originates from Internet arguments where one participate chooses to nit-pick someone's grammar instead of addressing the actual point. Even then, the accusation is troublesome. I typically don't nit-pick forum-posts or Youtube comments, not even in writing forums—unless their grammar is irredeemably atrocious. A typo in a casual conversation, or any conversation, isn't worth mentioning, but there's no reason that a person should neglecting capitalizing 'I's or forgo punctuation. Speaking from experience, it's very, very difficult to be taken seriously when you type (and post) in a matter that indicates a severe mental deficiency of some sort, and if someone's grammar is that bad, then something needs to be said.

Years ago I was a regular at several Final Fantasy-related forums. I'd write long posts and then get all pissy when people started bitching about poor SPaG. Now that I see others doing the same years later, all I an do is put my face into my palm and shake my head.

3750494
For me, it is something of a vicious cycle. Before I started to write, I would tolerate nearly any level of grammatical errors. Now, even small ones throw me. This is because when I write I always go back over my work a few times to make sure there aren't any errors. By seeking out the errors to improve my own story, I also am training myself to spot errors. So now when I read a story, a grammatical error causes my immersion to break because it stands out glaringly to my eye, even though it's not my job to fix it.

If that makes any sense.

3750608
Thats mostly why I take care to use good grammar when writing even though I dont particularly care about it when reading.

Proper grammar is fine. But it's when people start demanding specific classes of English style that I draw the line. No capitalization? Poor sentence structure? There are varying levels of I can/cannot deal with that.

But black-listing fics because someone uses grey instead of gray, or because you don't believe in indenting? I'm sorry, but you've become a pretentious jackhole at that point.

3750618

I don't hold other authors to the same standards that I hold myself to, though I think I might be a bit better at spotting other people's errors than my own. Consistent typos make me cringe, but won't make me drop a fic. I'm not, however, going to read a story that looks like it was written by a tween.

3750635

But black-listing fics because someone uses grey instead of gray, or because you don't believe in indenting? I'm sorry, but you've become a pretentious jackhole at that point.

Basically, people who are stupid enough to not realize that the British don't spell things the same way that Americans do. That's not really an issue of standards, so much as an issue of sheer ignorance on the part of the reader. Their feedback is worth the same as someone who can't spell 'cat'. These people don't just have a different set of standards—they're simply wrong, and need to know when to shut their mouths, lest they humiliate themselves.

3750494

Improper grammar and splling should get you riled up for the simple fact that letting it exist in your work means a greater chance that your professional writing {TPS reports for the boss, emails to coworkers} are more likely to have mistakes due to previously established bad habits, using the oxford comma or not is an insignificant matter but mispelling "canon" can have dire consequences (Particularly if you're in the military)

3750533
Hee! Well caught! Alas, not intentional at all; a fiendish typo sneaked its way into my brief bit of prose. In spite of my temptation to correct it I shall leave it as is, so that this thread of conversation remains unbroken.

Which brings up the fact that I don't generally proofread my comments much, if at all. I go over my poems and stories repeatedly, and with stories I have other eyes (and ears, sometimes; I like to read them to my sweeties) examine them, again repeatedly if at all possible. Errors still lurk, of course, as there is no such thing as a perfect proofreader, but I have a vast preference for weeding out as many as possible before making them available to any audience not specifically there as an editor.

As a brief addendum to my original post, my immersion generally isn't broken by just one or two errors, so long as they are not horrendously egregious. My threshold of annoyance is probably a bit tighter than most as I write, edit, and proofread as part of my day job as well, but (and this, to me, is the most important part) I'm still not a jerk about it to authors who aren't quite so fastidious. I'm just less likely to Like and Fave.

Light and laughter,
SongCoyote

3750494

As others have said: an apparent disinterest in writing properly often goes hand-in-hand with an actual disinterest in making the rest of the story worthwhile (characterization, plot cohesiveness, believable progression, etc.). An author who cares enough to make their story as good as it can be will also care about grammar, because too much grammatical fluidity muddles the intended message.

3750695 It's of no matter; 3750679 made one, too.

Improper grammar and splling

I swear, these are done deliberately.

3750494
We're not grammar nazis. We're imposing a reasonable standard of quality for written works because of our love for the written word as a medium of artistic expression. No one expects it to be absolutely perfect. Even published novels make it through the editing process with a few little mistakes here and there.

To put it simply, when I'm reading a story, I expect some level of effort on the part of the writer. After all, if the person who wrote it clearly didn't care, then why should I? This isn't Twitter or Facebook or some other form of online conversation where there may be space and time restrictions. There is no character limit on a story chapter. There is no time limit placed on the writer beyond that which they choose to impose on themselves. Therefore, there is no excuse for a writer to not at least read what they wrote before publishing.

3750751

wot u mean, m8?

3750494 Cause we're all a load of weirdos who expect stories about technicolor horses to have good grammar.

In all seriousness, I think it's because when we read a published work, good grammar is needed. We hold the stories written here to the same grammatical standards as published works, and so we expect every story, regardless of whether it was written by a college student, senior, parent, adult, or child to the same level we would hold a published book.

3750525 Then you are a member of the minority.

3750856 I mean you made a spelling error, m8

3750860

Except for Twilight, obviously.

I hope I'm not being miss interperated here. I'm kinda worried now that people will read this and think I actually dont care about grammar in my own wrightings. I know grammar is important. This was meant to be more of a philosophical why. Like, why do we point out grammar errors before anything else and such.

3750494
The short answer is that it irritates people. They want to see that there's something greater than they are out there. Some people just happen to have very high standards for grammar. Others notice grammar more. Maybe they've studied it personally, maybe they're just really good at it, maybe they're fellow writers or even English majors. Others still are just trolls.

For me personally, I don't have very high standards for grammar, but I notice misspelled words. I notice improper grammar sometimes too. If I notice those things more than I notice the story, it's difficult to enjoy reading it. And this is coming from someone who isn't a Grammar Nazi, nor one who is exceptionally good at grammar or writing in general. I've been told I have good grammar though.

Grammar is the necessary evil that must be dealt with.

I'd find it very tragic to spot a grammatical mistake in my story after thousand people already read it. Those readers could all be spared, if only the mistake was found sooner. I reread my works like crazy, but I'm often blind to spot some of my mistakes. If only somepony would point at them...

Alas, the comment section of stories is too often a desolate place. Readers are hiding from the mean authors that hate Grammar Nazis and criticism in general.

It is sad, indeed. So I try to overcompensate by pointing out all the mistakes in the stories I read. I do to other authors what I would like them to do to me.

I find there is a lack of Grammar Nazis out there. By acting as one, it makes me feel that I'm not a part of the problem.

Ideally, all stories will have perfect grammar after the mistakes are pointed out. It would, however, be better if that happened sooner rather than later, as less harm would come onto readers that way.

Proper grammar is fine. But it's when people start demanding specific classes of English style that I draw the line. No capitalization? Poor sentence structure? There are varying levels of I can/cannot deal with that.
But black-listing fics because someone uses grey instead of gray, or because you don't believe in indenting? I'm sorry, but you've become a pretentious jackhole at that point.

I agree with Viking ZX I don't give a fuck unless it is so bad it's like a different language, like why the fuck is it a big deal that they don't put a comma or shit it doesn't mean the fucking end of the damm world.

Here's an answer I was working on for a presumed "how to write a fic" fic...

Imagine instead of a writer, you are a musician...and you have this awesome idea for a song so you get out some blank sheet music and begin writing down notes and chords. Now, you can't play more than one instrument at once, so you hand part of your score to your friend who is a guitarist. And he sits down and starts plucking out the melody.

And he's doing it wrong...

Not even "a mistaken note here or there" but whole swathes of the melody are just wrong, wrong, WRONG!!!

You could ignore it...but you can HEAR the wrongness as it leaks into your eardrums and you KNOW what your music sounds like, damn it, and that's NOT it. So you say to your friend, "No no, stop, that's not what I intended."

And your friend says to you, "but that's what you've written down."

That's what grammar is like. All those little tricks and rules are what governs how what you are saying are read and interpreted. If you do it correctly, you make music...and if you don't it grates at certain sorts of brains like nails on a chalkboard. I'm one of those brains (even though I don't need it to be perfect) and I hear the characters speaking in my head as I read them, and when they say something "wrong" (or even "wrong for them") it makes me twitch like someone poked me with a needle...and takes me right out of the experience. It makes me conscious that I'm not living a story and instead am reading words on a webpage. And sometimes...that's enough to make me stop reading altogether and go find another story that doesn't jab my conscientious with needles.

You don't want that, I don't want that. Think about grammar, or find a friend who will do it for you.

3750940
Once again I'd like to point out that, when Im writing, I do try to use proper grammar. It's when Im reading that I dont care.

3750494
Where I don't care:
Comments
Forums
Dialogue
Chat
Email... to an extent.

Where I do care:
Narrative, where poor grammar is not a narrative or visual tool.
Business Documents

That being said, I'm not a nazi when I'm reading, but I am if I've been asked to review or provide critique. Also, it has to do with how much poor grammar I can take when reading, and I'd like to think my threshold is around 20% of sentences but it's probably less.

Proper grammar is the means by which meaning is accurately conveyed.

If I have to waste a lot of my brainpower working out the exact meaning of an author's words, it makes the whole experience less relaxing for me. With egregiously bad grammar/spelling I find myself having to stop all the time, to give my mind time to sort out what is being communicated, thus ruining the 'flow' of the story. This can utterly ruin any attempts at immersion, making it difficult to connect with the characters and events. If I can't connect, then why should I care?

I find that proper grammar and spelling allows the characters and setting to come through much clearer.

And if nothing else, an author should give enough of a damn for his story to take the time to correct those kinds of mistakes.

3750891 Feel free to point out grammatical and spelling errors in any of my fics. I also find myself going blind to my own errors, when I have to self-edit. So anyone that can spot these things for me, and point them out, is going to gain my appreciation.

I am very tolerant to how people write their stories. Only really sloppily written (as if it was a ten year old writing it) stories will get my disapproval. I am not the best at writing myself so who am I to try and judge someone else's work?

We're on a writing site, so this is the one place I expect to see good grammar.

Good writing and grammar makes the difference for me experiencing the story.
When it's good, I can experience the fiction as immerse as a reader.
But to the contrary, I can't help but see the mistakes as an editor.

Most I can brush aside. Especially if there miner, butt readable. .

butt teh moor glaring teh errerz, teh moar it brakes imershun and my patients.

3750494
In the words of a great philosopher:

"As an author, you paint the world with your words.

"So don't use crayons."

3750494 Personally, I think it's my Asperger's combined with my perfectionist side. I'm passionate about writing, on account of my Asperger's, so I will often go over my own stuff multiple times before posting and it's not just stories. It's e-mails, YouTube comments, text messages, even this post. I think that because I put soo much time into what I write that my perfectionist side just gets annoyed when it seems like someone else didn't put in equal effort. At least that's the impression I get when I come across something that suffers drastically from poor grammar. The thing is, though, I oftentimes feel like I've never done enough, no matter how many times I look it over and change stuff around, at which point I just have to accept it as is and hope that the viewing audience likes it. All I'll say is that I've received very few complaints thus far. Not to brag.

For me, proper spelling, punctuation and grammar were drilled into me at an early age and so, if I encounter a story with misused grammar or erroneous spelling, then I find it difficult to read. Be it anything as simple as a misplaced comma, or an apostrophe that's been used in the wrong context, I just find the part that has bad grammar difficult to read. I'm also a little OCD about grammar, so when I see something that's wrong, I feel the urge to correct it.

For me, why I'm such a big Grammar Nazi is more force of habit than anything else.

Ever listen to a favourite song on a CD or record, and you're really getting into it? Then the track hits a scratch causing a jump or glitch, totally ruining the moment. That's what a grammatical error is like for me when reading.

Then again, I'm a grammar tyrant, not a grammar Nazi.

3750494

Because I'm a fucking autist
Because I like the English language. It genuinely appeals to me, both in its sound and its structure. I like it enough, in fact, that I respect its rules and try to be perfect. I'm a perfectionist. It's what I do.

When I spot mistakes, especially ones easily avoided, I am disappointed. The writer (or speaker) could have, with some small effort, avoided the mistake. It's really not hard. I then tend to gas and burn the fucker make known the error and explain why it's not correct, thus earning myself the misnomer "Grammar Nazi". I don't think it's representative of my attitude towards errors.

Being quite fond of the language and its structure, I decided to edit and proofread for writers of fanfiction, people who are clearly dedicated to writing porn literature and, thus, don't hate the language. Often, I have a lot of work to do. There are often mistakes made repeatedly that I have to both fix and explain. I often end up teaching the few for whom I work. Such is life. I'll live.
I do this because poor grammar can, contrary to popular belief, entirely ruin a story, breaking immersion, drawing attention away from important goings-on and generally extracting less-than-positive reactions, comments etc. It saddens me.

However, not all errors are mistakes. I have no issue with people who knowingly break rules for effect. That's actually a good use of poor grammar, and as long as one knows the rule they break, I'm happy to let them break it.

In the end, I'm a Grammar Nazi because I like the language and want not only to perfect it, but to help others make fewer mistakes and maintain a higher standard than they do.

TL;DR — I like English, so I follow its rules. If I see errors, I correct them. I edit. I'm not a Nazi.

3751289
We're still on the Internet. Expect nothing but pain and suffering.

Grammar Nazis?

Because pointing out a greengrocer's apostrophe is the same as killing babies. Apparently.

'Scuse me but back in the day we used to use the term "[something] faggot" to designate someone with a pointless and excessive enthusiasm for [something]. Because, you know, of the old stereotype that gay guys are pointlessly and excessively enthusiastic about--stuff.

So can I please be grammar faggot? I'm straight but that just means I'll try harder. Okay?

3750494 Others have already said this, and I have to agree: proper grammar and spelling are about having respect for the reader. As a writer, I want the reader to be happy. I want the reader to see that I made every possible effort to create something good. I want the reader to say, "That was good," and keep coming back for more. Not to mention that on this site, where a gazillion fics are published daily, I am already standing on the street corner and holding a sign saying, "I will show you a good time you won't forget or regret." A nice cover picture, neat grammar and spelling--those are all ways of rolling out the red carpet.

On the other hand, a fic with stupid spelling and grammatical errors says, "You know what? I don't give a shit about you, Reader. I can't be bothered. I arsed this off in a half hour cuz I was bored and here's what you get LOL." It doesn't help that some writers actually put something like that in the description or the Author's Notes.

If you, Writer, aren't going to take the time to edit and proofread, then why should I, the Reader, waste my time on your fic? There are so many others to choose from, and I have a bulging "Read Later" folder as well. I will skim and zoom off. Others will skim, downvote, and zoom off. The ones who actually bothered to tell you what you did wrong? They gave a shit. The rest of us were just silently turned off.

Usually when people point out punctuation and spelling errors, there are a lot of other things that are wrong with the fic as well. It's just that those are the easiest and quickest to discern and comment on. That's why when I taught composition and put my students into critique groups, they'd skim each others' papers in silence, and then say something about comma use.

I find poor sentence structure and lack of character development to be more irritating than wether or not someone uses "there," "their" or "they're" appropriately. thats not to say that people shouldn't strive to do so, its just that in terms of fan-fiction, their time can be better spent elsewhere when improving the overall quality of their storytelling; Its not paramount.