Insulting a creation, but not the creator. · 7:29pm Dec 5th, 2016
First of all, for those on you wanting an update on MLAABQ, lemme just quickly tell you that chapter 15 looks like it's gonna be out next Friday (clarification: that means this Friday), with around 10k words. End of MLAABQ-news.
Now:
I've been waiting for a while to be able to write this. No one has had anything poor to say about any of my stuff for quite a while now, so the chances of me coming across as someone who feels insulted and is passive aggressively rallying people to back him up should be pretty low.
Something I've noticed a lot on this site (and the internet in general, but mostly this site since this is pretty much the only place I'm active) is that people with bitingly harsh to say about creations often leave a little note or something, telling people to not attack or insult actual people. This strikes me as strange.
Since my cowardice knows no bounds, I originally didn’t want to name names, but I happened to notice that the founder of the group Absolutely Disgusting no longer seems to be with us (on the site, I hope, I don’t know the guy/gal harm and I don’t wish them harm), so lemme just quote the description of that group as an example.
… I was gonna try and cherry pick something, there's really no need:
This is for those stories that you think are bad juju. You don't have to have a reason. You just find your gorge rising.
It's not that the story is bad. It's not that it's good, either. You simply look at the title, the picture, and/or the description, and you think to yourself, "This is one of those stories." The author really should have put more thought into that cover picture. Or maybe they should have hired an editor to fix things up a bit. The clop could be horrendous in it. You find some facet of it appalling.
Masochists will want to read the stories in this group. So will rage readers. Also people who just enjoy that shudder that goes up their spine as their body goes through that first gag before they start throwing up. Your reasons are your own. We won't judge.
Remember, don't attack nobody. This is to find the fics that you find absolutely disgusting, as well as discussion on what you find absolutely disgusting in a fic. Hence the name.
‘Remember, don’t attack nobody’... Right 
(And I don’t want to single out that group. While it's not too prevalent, I see this as a trend)
Okay, so, this is just me talking, but unless I think in absolutely alien ways and have so very thoroughly misunderstood how people think, I’m not sure this is how it works.
You see, I put a lot of effort into my flagship story. I really do. I put a lot of effort into many things.
If someone comes along and say horrible things about my efforts, I tend to get a little sad. Most people do, right?
I don’t really have the vocabulary or the philosophical leanings to go much deeper into it than this, but I’m not sure it’s viable to walk up someone (or as is often the case, talk behind their back), and say things to the effect of, “your efforts are both laughable and pathetic, it’s outright revolting and it made me physically ill. Your creation is, frankly, awful, and you should feel ashamed. Now remember, I’m not insulting you.”
Is it?
And I mean that as an actual question. The answer, as is often the case, is probably not the yes/no-kind; it’s probably found in the middle, but what is your opinion on this?
There are a few related questions to this that I find quite interesting. Like, do people who write little notes not to attack people really mean it? It’s been trendy for quite a while now to be as harsh as possible in one’s opinion of stuff as possible (and I’m not sure Something Awful is a cause or a symptom), and I’m pretty sure that most are not. No, I think they’re delighted to take their internet-smack-talk everywhere they go, especially where it’s not welcome. What’s your opinion on that?
Why do they say this? Is it to somehow shield themselves from people who’d call them out on it?
Why are people like this? Was the internet too accepting of garbage creations at some time and this is a delayed reaction?
Now, I know that sometimes, people are very accepting with insulting criticism. Some people just don’t care, and really don’t care, which I don’t think is as common as people who claim they don’t. Sometime the creator didn’t put in a lot of effort into their creation, as I guess is often the case with them short-story-collection-bin (I know, I have one myself). But if someone really doesn’t care about other people’s opinion, why go through the effort of publishing anything?
Now It’s gonna be really hard to try and sound flippant about whether or not this post gets any responses. Also; rue the day when I share my thoughts on why people get angry when partaking in art they don’t appreciate, and reasons why they should and should not.
The concept of separating the value of a person from its work is, in my opinion, pretty important.
The "Don't insult the author" note means that you can say (if you should do so is not the point debated here) that somebody's effort are bad, his production is laughable and it would have been better to stay unpublished but that doesn't mean that he is a bad person. It only means (or should mean) that the thing he has done was done badly. Now, I don't want here to discuss the merits or the lacking of them in doing something like that. That is a bit beside the point even if it could be an interesting issue. I also recognize that often the border between harsh criticism and attacking the person becomes a bit blurred, but that doesn't invalidate the concept behind it.
Can you really say that, though? That someone isn't *insert adjective here*, but that everything they do is, and overwhelmingly so? And not just limited to poor qualities either. Can you claim that someone is not altruistic when their actions are?
Hmm, could the final point be that simple? That the line is blurred and [I think] people are taking it too far? I guess I could see that being the case. What do you think?
Taking your quote, the following are placing value judgements on the author, and therefore would fall afoul of this sentiment
I mean, in general, we should all strive to provide well-meaning, politely-phrased critique, but that's not who everyone is, and for those that must be blunt and crude, there is a definite, important line between "This has no value and should be abandoned" vs. "You have no value and should stop writing." The former isn't nice and could certainly be phrased better, but the latter is, without a doubt, worse and the kind of thing that many communities would consider actionable for moderation.
Sure, some people do see it as a disclaimer for taking responsibility for what they said in the vein of "No offense, but…" followed by something unapologetically offensive, but the actual sentiment is a real and important line that should not be crossed.
Ehh, I'm of the opinion that people who need to use that tag are just pretending that they're being nice about the whole affair without actually trying to. Likely to distance themselves from flamers, methinks. I also imagine that many people don't necessarily make the connection between "this story is absolute garbage" to "someone with real feelings made this". The pseudonyms and avatars don't help in that respect.
Then again, Fanfiction is weird. Just about every other creative endeavour has some kind of built-in reward. If you knit, then at the end of project you have something you can wear. (Or display, I guess?) If you paint, you get something you enjoy looking at. (Or enjoy getting frustrated at?) And so it goes, until we get to writing. I suppose the for most of us, the best we can hope for when writing is either acclaim or the enjoyment of writing. Fanfiction kinda precludes the former, as barring a few exceptions you're not gonna be able to publish your work. So with that out, you're really only doing it for your own satisfaction. And, to paraphrase George R.R. Martin, that's kinda masturbatory. And then you show it to everyone who'll stop and check it out. And now I squicked myself out, so I shall flee back into the undergrowth.
4329790 Agreed. (And not just because I'm a bit starstruck
)
I also find this a much more rewarding challenge to take on than just raging about perceived weaknesses in stories. Challenge yourself, people!
It's often actually quite fun.
Then comes the difficulty of offenders(... 'transgressors'?) who clearly mean the former, but strictly speaking, their words fall into the latter.
4329793
Also agreed. See my opinion further up in this comment.
Oh, I think It's often more sinister than that. I think they're often on the prowl for a flame-war, and the no-personal-insult-tags are there to give themselves a perceived moral high-ground for the battle over whether the criticizer is an ass-hat or the receiver is a touchy whiner.
If writing is masturbatory, is writing with others, and basking in the feedback, sex? Or is it a public act of indecency?
Very thin, easy to cross line between breaking down a story and showing why it's bad, and moving to its creator and insulting them instead. One of those is not against the rules, the other is. Groups like this one sometimes come up during moderation, and we have deleted one or two in the past that forgot about critiquing stories entirely in favor of going after their creators, instead. We don't want to overreach on moderating, but we don't want to allow people to openly declare hunting season on others, either.
Honestly, though, a group for 'bad' stories (always so subjective, too, what defines bad) that puts so many in dilutes the whole purpose of such a group in the end. It's individuals who may be trying to stoke up flames that don't exist, or whatever you may want to deduce. I personally think groups like this tend to ultimately serve no purpose, especially once it's so diluted like the one you pointed out is, but again, free speech, all that stuff.
4329825
The most morally correct approach, I'd say, though I can imagine it gets frustrating when people actively hide behind your adherence to your own rules to get away with... questionable behavior. You have my... now I've forgotten the difference between sympathy and empathy, but you probably have both
That the purpose of those groups is diluted would be a bit comforting if your story was submitted to one, though.
I feel I have an unpracticed gift for writing and have a story idea in mind, but I'm nervous of this exact thing. I struggle to take crticism constructively and fear that my story will either not take off and my time will be wasted or it'll be hit hard by critics who thrive off anonymity. I've gotten better with it over the years, but still. Especially in the internet, it's hard to differntiate between legit criticism and attacks. At least for me and no doubt others at least.
I just keep reminding myself that there will always be a critic who dislikes it for a reason known only to them. I hope my work won't be posted on negative groups like that, but it may just be an inevitability. Especially as a story gets more and more popular, more opponents will try to bring it down. I find that it happens everywhere with anything. Many people love Skyrim and consider it one of the best games of the last decade. Others hate it with a passion and insult the fans whenever possible. Some people can't see what's special about an artwork while others see are touched to the soul. Many people see religion as a source of good while others see it as a conduit for evil. Many people love stories like Past Sins while others draw artwork murdering the OC. There is simply no pleasing everyone.
What should be important to me is practice and hopefully reaching an appreciative audience. I'd wager the same for you and others too. In your case, your upvotes dwarf your downsides. Some people just hate the idea of HiE stories and don't bother reading it. Its sad that they feel the need to insult it, but it's bound to happen. One just needs to focus more on the green than the red.
Keep it up, and good luck!
I honestly think that such a group was suppose to be about constructive criticism. However, it is also a group that took constructive criticism into borderline destructive criticism. There is a reason why the phrase, "It's not what you say, but how you say it", exists you know.
But I do understand what the founding of this group was supposed to be. The idea of attacking the creation and not the creator is an old one and while the line can get blurred, it is boiled down to a few simple facts.
1) Quality of product
2) Personal preference
The quality of a product, whether it is a story, a movie, or simply a tool you use has a great impact on a person. Poor quality usually means cheap(in terms of price and effort put into it) and easily replaced (doesn't last long, the user will move onto something better). Better quality, makes a product worth it. In a story, the author makes you invested in the characters, the storyline, and the lore behind it all. Being a fansite, you'd expect that it be filled with lower quality writing, but over time that writing will be improved.
Than there's personal preference, if the user doesn't like the product, in this case a story no matter how good it is, then to them its worthless. It doesn't change the fact about the story, its just the user didn't like the story.
Groups like Absolutely Disgusting objectify this in a negative way. Yes the story could be better and maybe a particular title art would fit better. But you shouldn't insult some one for that. A place like this is meant for fun, not a place where its only professional authors. It takes preference to far, yes we know you don't like the story, but calling it disgusting attacks the creator more than the product.
Discussing what is wrong with a story is actually a very important part of constructive criticism. Through that a writer is able to hear from what others think of your story and thus, the writer is able to correct any mistakes or plot holes with it.
Now I've done something similar, but more personal to what Absolutely Disgusting has done. I created a folder called "The Dust Bin" In this folder, I put stories that I read the ending of, but never finished, stories I found interesting but didn't want to read, and stories that well rubbed off on me the wrong way. The last column is important as it's the same reason for "Absolutely Disgusting" to exist.
The story, "Pony Class Starship" by Viking hoof is an example of this. I originally found it to be rather interesting. At first it seemed to be about a starship and its crew ending up separated after ending up on Equestria. The twist is that the Ship, specifically its AI Aurora, wakes up as a Cyber-pony, meaning that the ship itself had basically become a pony while keeping some of her more mechanical parts. My idea of it was that, while searching for her missing crew members, she also goes on a journey of self discovery and personal enlightenment. But after awhile it just became a chore to read, the jokes just weren't really funny, she's still more ship than well a cybernetic pony, and overall it's not what I thought it was going to be. So, I chucked it into my Dust Bin folder.
Everyone has the right to their opinion, but if you're going to "attack" a story, do it in a constructive manner. You don't like the cover art? Fine, than in detail explain why and than give some examples of what you would think is a better fit. Yes, even rubs you the wrong way is a fine answer. If there are some errors let the author know so they can fix it and if you don't like a particular direction the story is going explain why. I have seen stories that were going one way and retconned it after talking to their fan-base. Speak up, but explain why and do it in a way were your not insulting the person making the story.
The only thing you can control is how you respond to other people's actions and words.
-Ru
This reminds me of the Armchair Internet Warriors who adamantly proclaim their "egalitarian" world view so they can continue saying heathy, able-bodied white men should be eligible for scholarships and programmes for women and minorities because otherwise it's sexist/racist/etc.
Huh. Being a long-time Something Awful user myself, I'm feeling kind of put on the spot by this. The thing is, yes, Something Awful is an incredibly snobby kind of internet community. You need to pay to even get in and posting standards are very, very strict. I can completely understand why a lot of people loathe it, because goons are not at all coy about telling it to you exactly as they see it, with extra provocation and needling thrown in if they think you're being overly defensive or trying to justify something that's actually a legitimate flaw. This can descend into being genuinely rude at time.
The thing is, this has also led to a community that has an amazingly high quality standard. Something Awful is, ostensibly, a comedy forum, but at the same time, it's full of competent and eloquent people from all walks of life and all possible backgrounds. Anthropologists, cops, scientists, prostitutes, career porn actors, name it and we have it - and many of those people are very willing to put a lot of effort into writing posts that are in-depth, well-founded and very insightful about their particular lifestyle or line of work, with threads that are usually nearly entirely free of white noise or shitty, no-content posting for its own sake. It has probably the highest average content quality of any internet community I've ever been part of, speaking as someone who remembers a time when 56k baud was hot stuff.
This extends to writing, too. There was this thread called "The Terrible Secret Of Animal Crossing" once. In a community that usually sneers on that kind of thing, it belonged to a genre of thread called "narrative Let's Plays," which is, to put not too fine a point on it, playing through a game while writing fanfiction about the events of your playthrough. Through creative writing, image editing and hand-drawn art, it told a complex psychological horror story about a summer camp that's actually a front for... well, no spoilers, with complex character arcs and a general quality of writing that's the equal of any story I've ever read here, in my opinion.
It was, in fact, so good that it was permanently archived in the "Goldmine," which is where threads are kept accessible that the moderation team and the users of the site consider the cream of the crop. On a site with 200,000 users and millions of posts, there aren't more than a handful of thread every month that get that distinction, especially not if they're about video games, pop culture, fanfic or internet fads.
This just isn't something you get in a place where people aren't willing to actually tell you about your flaws. "This is shit and here is why" is a kind of criticism that's really hard to ignore and explain away to yourself, because a politely expressed opinion is easily read as a weak opinion. Forcefulness makes people pay attention when they otherwise wouldn't. It's not nice, but in a lot of ways? It simply works and is a genuine attempt to help someone improve themselves. "Tough love" of that kind is something a lot of people simply need if they're ever going to shape up.
To put not too fine a point on it: yes. It still is, in fact.
Yes, you can, because if you can't? Literally every time you ever give negative criticism about anything will be a personal insult. You can couch in polite phrasing and mealy-mouthedness, but in the end, "I think you did not do well" means someone thinks you did not do well. The tone of the message doesn't change the fact that it's someone calling your writing bad.
How to for a group for Constructive Criticism: (My version)
First, we want to create a guide for this criticism. Make a guideline with categories for which you can fit stories into.
The categories can be as varied or as simple as you want so long as it can be applied to the majority of stories.
EX:
1) Basic Grammar
2) Basic Story-line
3) Character development
4) Plot holes
5) fitting visuals
Than, pick ONE and I do mean ONE story that is rather old and has not been updated in a while to be used as an example. (This is to ensure that the creation is criticized and not the author)
Finally make a list of the stories that fit these categories. The idea is constructive criticism, the list may have stories links, but I stress, provide constructive criticism. Don't just say this story sucks and should be deleted. Based on the category it's been placed complain about how it could be better if you did this, this, and this.
The examples and its related criticism should be used to help writers improve their stories in those areas. For visuals, give examples and if your a competent illustrator, draw a better visual for the story yourself and offer it to them rather than complain.
4329772
The moment you say *everything they do* you are attacking the person.
Consider code reviews, something software developers do. While ideally they should be professional and clinical, it can happen that feelings get hurt when the thing one worked on for weeks, eight hours at day (at least) is ripped to pieces. And still it is a fundamental learning experience. The point is that you absolutely have to separate the value of a person from their value of their work. I know wonderful people that couldn't write if their life depended on it and jerks that create wonderful prose.
That reality is messy and it heavily depends on both the critique, the criticised and the critic.
Attacking the value of an author as a person (saying "you should feel ashamed" or asking "what is wrong with you?") clearly cross the line. It is not something you should ever write in a criticism. Saying something like "Oh God, another instance of [some cliche], didn't the author read other stories and see that it is a bad idea to do that?" is, even in harsher words, probably still legitimate criticism as long as it doesn't implies the author is stupid or something like that.
To grow as an author it's important to not take criticism of the story as something personal. It is also important to be able to step away from one's story and look at it from some distance.
On the other hand tearing into a story written by someone who simply is learning or sees it as a minor thing to do on the side may be a bit rude. And yet they decided to expose the story to a wide audience and to critical examination.
Personally I adore the "Tear my Story to Shreds" folder on Rage Reviews, as it bypasses all this moral problems.
Yes. If anyone actually needs to point this out specifically - it's a disclaimer, tumblr style.
And yes, for better or worse, Internet IS and SHOULD BE accepting with a very low threshold of quality. If you raise the threshold and enforce it - when (if ever) would you stop? Same goes more broadly with freedom of speech etc. Hammer and nails and all that.
SA... Ok, we'll trust 'wlam' and assume that particular bunch of elitist jerks isn't all black and white. But I've personally known people doing this kinda stuff for fun with the goal of... I dunno, project their superiority maybe? 'But I'm just giving critisizuuuuuuum', well, if anyone would 'critisise' my art like that, the only thing I'd be willing to do in the forseeable future is crawl into the corner behind the cupboard and die there.
According to 'wlam', SA follows 'survival of the fittest'. If you can take it fine, if you can't, neither you nor your crap is needed. And it does indeed work (to some end) on the strategic level. On individual level, it's a disaster (really follows the trend in all other aspects of life, really). So whether or not you endorse and follow this way depends on your goals.
That said, without any actual input from the outside, you have no idea what, if anything, you're doing right. From what I've seen, talent is usually inversely proportional to enthisuasm, so without an outside perspective the quality will inevitably and sharply drop. By itself, not the worst thing, but it would make it harder to find 'the good stuff' for those looking for it.
Then again... One of the definitions of 'art' is something three people not related to each other can agree on calling 'art'. While stupid in practical sense, there is truth to this concept. There's also the problem of people dealing with critisism. A person can treat his creation as a joke, a math problem, a burden, a vision, a wish fulfilment, the list can go on and on. And this WILL define their reaction and how much they are receptive, more than anything else about them. Unless you know the author personally or be willing (and able) to guess correctly, you're in for interesting time trying to improve it. Oh yeah, and the context of the creation also matters. That's another tank of worms, won't even get started on it.
Tl;dr: there are no simple answers, life is pain. But yeah, that line is a disclaimer and nothing else.
4329874
See? Who knows what we’ve missed out on?
I guess some people are afraid that everything will drown in sub-par stories unless we crack down hard on these people who dare suggest that someone take some time to read their fanfiction on this here fanfiction-site, but do you really think that creating a hostile environment helps? The only people you’re scaring off are self-critical people. People with a very desirable trait when it comes to this thing.
True. I’ve had very little directed at my story, but I’ve read criticism of other stories on this site where I’ve just… Well, I’ll let Lin Bei Fong describe my thoughts: i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/575/422/e69.jpg
There are so many types of advice to people who’re starting out, and I can only give one that I don’t see very often: Try and establish a pact with your audience. Ease them into a state of mind where they’ll appreciate your story. MLAABQ would be pretty weird if it turned into a gory horror-story by chapter 4. People would go ‘this isn’t why I’m here’. Other than that, do you have an actual story or a concept, and would you like someone’s opinion?
Thank you, and right back at you
I say that you share your stuff, and know that if you do suffer that kind of criticism, I will be there, giving an anonymous looks of disapproval to undeserved insults.
4329913 Oh yeah, cover art. Criticising a story for lack of cover art is one that strikes me as very odd. (Lin, do the thing again, please)
It limits good stories to people with the skill to draw well and the equipment to digitalise it, or to people with the funds to hire an artist, and that’s just weird to me.
A story with a pony/starship sounds awesome, though
4330180 True enough. Disagreeing without flaming out is what I’m going for.
4330244 I’m not gonna touch that issue. I’m just gonna say that I’m brave enough to proclaim myself one which all sides hate. The one who all sees as their enemy, and who defiantly opposes all the major factions. One with the strength not to seek shelter among numbers because it’s easy. My path is a difficult one, but nothing can shake my belief in it. I am… a moderate!
4330344
Does this mean that they really mean it when they say that some kinda lame story or game or something actually makes them sick? Because I don’t believe that. If they do, they should have a doctor look at them.
I should note that I’ve never been a member of SA. I’m familiar with people from SA, though. For example: I think many here know about Retsupurae? Slowbeef is kinda funny sometimes, I admit. But he is also often outright vile against enthusiastic amateurs who has done nothing to earn his scorn, and I don’t believe he really gets as angry as he makes is seem, and so the whole ‘brutal honesty’-thing kinda falls apart to me.
(also, on SA: I watched Benjamin Croshaw’s youtube-channel before he was famous
)
To me, that sounds like a ‘tyranny of the mob’-thing, which in my mind provokes things that appeals to everyone, and easily becomes bland. Personally, I would not have it this way. A lot of things I absolutely adore have been critically panned, and I would not choose a hundred Avatars over one Big Trouble In Little China, one of them a very popular movie when it came out, the other not so much.
And I’m gonna have to take your word for it when it comes to Animal Crossing.
Why not?
I sometimes suspect that I’m strange in that regard, in that I assume that people mean what they say, even when they’re not overly abrasive. Especially when they’re not overly abrasive.
Opponent sums up my thoughts on this later down.
A hostile tone still means something, though. If it didn’t, why use it? Also, wouldn’t that make the ability to take criticism well and calmly pointless? I mean, that sounds like someone can be a really chill dude, and when someone comes along and says ‘no, you’re not a chill dude’, they suddenly aren’t?
I think I should stress that this isn’t pointed to wlam specifically, but: Something said with an insult is not the same as something said with tact. It overlaps, sure, but it’s not identical. This has to do with the soft science of feelings and emotions, and I know a lot of people don’t always like this, but you should take that into consideration. It’s part the human experience to have feelings and emotions, and to share the planet with people who do so as well. Don’t take them into consideration if you want, just be prepared to deal with the consequences.
4330482
Fair point. Though I think there’s a bit of difference when it comes to professional stuff, developed with utilitarian purposes in mind. Unless we’re talking video games, maybe…
… I think the final point I’m planning might be partially a response to the rest of your post.
4330483
Bravo! I agree wholeheartedly.
Yyy… hmm… yes, I think that’s maybe why I feel put off when I read certain kinds of harsh criticism. I often get some serious schoolyard-bullying-vibes. There are harsh criticism that’s both constructive, legit, funny, and helpful, but it’s too rare and too far between.
One advice I would like to give people who’re fans of the raging, screaming, insulting, and chimp-style-poo-flinging type of criticism: I sometimes like this stuff, in moderation, when it doesn’t feel overly mean. Try scaling the swearing and the insults back a bit, and go for fewer precision-strikes. If nothing else it might be different, and this cool and hip.
4330662
You are right that holding somebody who wants to write for fun to the same standards as a professional may be a bit unfair if they don't want to be held to such a thing. Then again, it can be a chance to grow. I admit I myself have not yet a conclusive opinion on it, only a collection of vague guidelines I try to follow.
I will be quite interested in your conclusions on the issue.
4330735 So far my opinion is the same. There are jerks out there who doesn't want to be seen as jerks, and so they hide behind excuses, the 'you're not allowed to take my insults personally because it's directed at your creations'-variant is one of many.
On the point of growing; this isn't directed at you, it just reminded me of another excuse I've heard many times in the same situation where people are defending too-harsh criticism: That you can't grow unless you receive criticism from others, which is just not true. It can help you find flaws, sure, but it's not the only way to grow. Wanna know who taught Kee Marcello to play the guitar? Kee Marcello taught Kee Marcello to play the guitar.
I assume you mean this Friday.
Stories are emotional, it brings out the best and worst behavior. The most triggered I've been by a story on this site made me so mad I was grumpy at work for almost an entire week, though I never told the author about it. If I was ten years younger I would probably have tried ripping his story to shreds in the comments. Of course I also become very happy when reading a good story.
I think if there was a rule that said: After you press 'Post Comment' you need to go out and take a walk for thirty minutes, then you can come back in and press the 'Confirm Post Comment' button—if you really want to post it. I think that would remove about 80% of all the filth on any forum.
People aren't really bad, they just tend to become rude when upset or stressed out. If you know this by heart, then people's criticism won't affect you as much. I do believe in the 'walk a mile in another man's shoe' mantra.
4330971
Yes. To me, 'next Friday' is, well, next Friday. 'Friday next week' is... also exactly what it sounds like
I need to know
I suppose that's true. One of the purposes of art is to evoke emotions. If someone writes a response to your fic where they seem to be frothing at the mouth and hyperventilating when doing so... well, I suppose that's a sign that you've created art
4330979
It was Man of War, which I had enjoyed for maybe 200k words, not the best story, but adequately entertaining as a fantasy action adventure. Below will be spoilers and some nastiness: I will remove it if you wish.
The protagonist—who I liked, had been fighting with ponies all through the story, he then stumbles upon a village guarded by a squad of pony-guards. He founds out that there were twenty guards, and the leader had been extorting the villagers, demanding twice the amount of taxes, and even commit rape at one point. So the protagonist decided to simply murder everyone indiscriminately. The story makes it like it was "self-defence", but he obviously goaded them into attacking him (he is as powerful as a god so basicly an execution). He kills almost everyone, and the ones who surrender (which was two mares) he forces them to bury their dead comrades while they cry their eyes out. Then makes them to dig their own graves also. All this he did in front of Twilight (who objected), but he manages to convince her by saying something like "This is the only way to stop corruption." End of chapter. PS: This story wasn't even that dark before this either.
Apologizes for dumping that here, it's been waiting to come out for over a year.
4331108 Wow. I guess plays into my writing-advice somewhere in this post. Make a pact with your readers about what they expect from you, and what you provide. I guess it can become very powerful to break from that pact, but it's a high-risk game.
Edit: on that, I guess Bronywriter has a smart strategy, where he has a whole bunch of spinoffs, or makes his story divergent, or however you want to see it. If you don't like where one particular is going story, you can just skip that.
's coo.
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So you say. People over in the Writer's Group sure weren't too happy about it when sad that once, though. There were angry blog posts and everything.
The thing is, a lot of people here are in this really awkward spot between being too proud to take criticism well, but not proud enough to actually want to do better. Incredibly argumentative and confrontational about it, but not willing to actually take people talking back at them. Personally, when I get someone who actually shouts at me and can tell me a specific thing I said that they took objection to? I take that as a win, because that's at least someone who cares enough to the respond to it at all when someone puts in the effort of giving criticism, instead of just downvoting and moving on.
I mean, really, what do you do with people like that? Bitching about getting their spelling mistakes pointed out all the time, but still making the same one over and over no matter how often they're told. People who know they're mediocre and hate getting reminded of it, but still can't be arsed to to try harder. Proud people can be difficult to talk to, but the type that's just going "fuck you, I don't want to hear your opinion, I'm here to get my ass kissed" aren't even honestly trying, they're just affronted you have the gall to actually think you get to tell them something they don't want to hear.
4333993 Hmm, I'm getting the sense that we've seen more of one side than the other on this subject. I haven't noticed a lot of authors being complete douches about feedback. I mean, I've seen some, and I know there must be more, but I haven't seen many. I don't leave a lot of criticism, so that may be it.
I'm guessing by your activity, followers, and lack of published stories (so far
) that you're more sick of people taking feedback poorly than giving feedback poorly.
I guess both poor critics and poor receivers are to blame for an environment where uncertain people who are testing the waters get attacked by someone who leaves a big, steaming pile of shit on them and acts like it's a great gift (and that can be both critics and authors).
4333993
Hmmm, I tend to not dabble too much with people who don't want to hear what I have to say. If and when I criticize somebody and they don't take it gracefully, I generally leave them alone. I also rarely read stories I don't like and for which I can't see much potential. At the end, that leads to me rarely being involved in the kind of situation that's discussed here on either side of the issue.
I may be a bit too indolent to weigh in on this at the end.
I think one of the biggest challenges is that some people are thin-skinned, and they're going to view it as a personal insult even if you don't mean to.
Like, I have a few people who have apologized for pointing out spelling errors, maybe because they're afraid they're going to insult me with it. I'm not insulted; I know damn well I fuck up all the time, and hopefully it's just a spelling error and not a major plot point.
And I've done lots of theatre, and one thing in theatre, is that when we perform for the public, we consider them a hostile audience. So I'm used to have a bad reaction (and right in my face, too).
But picture your poor, inexperience writer, who pours his heart out in his first ever fanfic, and it sucks. How's he not going to view some of the negative comments as a personal attack? No matter how neutral you try to be, or how careful you are to explain that you're just trying to help.
4345351 Oh, I've seen people who raise their hackles and hiss when they get friendly suggestions. I've also seen people give friendly suggestions, and when the author diplomatically asks something to the effect of 'are you sure this is good advice in this situation, have you considered X?' the people giving the feedback have raised their hackles.
Haha, sometimes that comes across more as passive aggressive than apologetic to me. I haven't gotten that feeling when reading my own comment-sections, but a few other times, it sounds a bit like 'Oh, I'm so sorry for disturbing you, wise and powerful horse-story writer, but I most respectfully beg for you to spare one small moment of your oh-so-valuable time to perhaps cast a fleeting gaze upon this not-at-all glaring spelling error I am grovellingly trying to bring to your attention." I'm never sure sure who I should sympathize with when I read something like that
Speaking as someone with no experience with the theater, do you mean that the audience is giving hostile feedback?
The only theater-show I remember going to was an hours long parody of Romeo And Juliet, entirely in limerick. Obviously, everyone in the audience was in laughter induced ecstasy, so no booing that time
That'd me, with the sucking-part being up to others to judge
Luckily, no one has given me the type of 'feedback' I'm talking about here. There have been a few cases where I've thought 'that could have been delivered more gracefully, but good advice all the same.' No, the type that I'm talking about is something that's never been pointed towards me. The group I linked to in the blog is a pretty mild case, but I see a lot of comments and/or reviews with words to the effect of "this make me physically ill, is the author really this clueless. Try learning to write basic things before trying your hand at story. Better yet, try getting a human brain transplanted into you, because monkeys obviously aren't good writers."
When reading things like this, I get less the sense of 'let's try and prepare the author to do better their next time,' and more 'let's all point and laugh.'
Maybe I should try reviewing something. See if I can live up to my own advice in this instance