Aug
25th
2015
Seriously though... · 4:17am Aug 25th, 2015
Just because some kid is smart...
It doesn't mean...
That they're teenagers already.
Just because a kid is smart AND wise...
Doesn't mean...
He's as emotionally mature as a young adult.
And just because he's a smart and sometimes wise-guy reptile that grows if he gets greedy...
It really doesn't automatically mean that he's in reality...
This atrocity. how I hate this version of Spike art!
So, guys. Really. Seriously.
If Spike has to grow up for your fic to work because its needed or you're incapable of portraying him as he really is... make sure it sort of makes some sense and it's not just because a small percentage of fanon wants him to be an adult trapped in a child's body despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
But no one likes to be faced with facts.
Spike's a hell of a lot more mature than Twilight. But he is still a child, so it still doesn't justify some of the things the fandom pumps out.
If I could upvote blog posts, I'd upvote this one. I agree with pretty much everything you mentioned here. Well said.
3345554 Uh... no he isn't. He just acts like the straight man when she has a panic attack, but overall, he acts like the little kid he is in every episode.
Thank god I don't write Spike.
It's the same old debate that pops up a lot with anthro fics. Why do you feel the need to change him? Why is the story not possible to tell with his canonical form? How does altering his character improve the story?
If you were writing a story about Rarity except you turned her into a pegasus, you need a better justification for it than just "because she's cooler that way."
3345560 I never said he wasn't a little kid, but I feel like Twilight (at least in some episodes) behaves in ways that aren't particularly mature. Again, Spike is a kid, and most of the time he acts like one, but he has an excuse. Something else to consider is Spike spent a lot of time with Twilight, and presumably Celestia, so it makes sense that he would try his hardest not to act childish around them. Though, in the end, it comes down to how the writers feel like having them act, so its hard to pin down thing like that sometimes, especially when it comes to the difficulty everyone seems to have writing Spike. Again, not disagreeing with you, just stating my thoughts.
3345577 Fair enough.
3345564
Spike who?
3345581 Spike? You know, Twilight's--ooh ho ho! Oh you!
I've avoided Spike in most of my work because I honestly can't write him very well.
My little bro is the smartest 11 year old I've ever seen. Power to the kids!
Facts? Evidence to the contrary? He's a little kid, and that's all we've really ever seen him as in the show, probably no more than ten years old or so. Nobody has a basis for his exact character as a teenager or an adult, certainly not on the level of "if you write him like this you are doing it wrong".
To be fair, he looks good in a jacket.
Am I the only one who wants a 'future' episode where we get an actual grown Spike? I don't care if he's a teen or an adult, I just want some canon.
i.gyazo.com/3e9d99ba5d13324537aefcb29f902da5.png
Relevant.
Perhaps you can help me. I am attempting to write Spike in my current work, and I really want to avoid....THAT Spike. Would it be possible to get your input and anyone else who believes that they know how to avoid the above do atrocity?
Of the written character, not the artwork. I shall complain to the high heavens about terribly OC acting characters, but I shall never diss the art.
3345595 Either you missed the point I'm trying to make or I'm missing the point you're trying to make.
And now i'm picturing Gurren Lagann with spike instead of simone (I really have to stop Marathon it)
3345595 Edgelord Spike is an objectively wrong characterisation.
3345835 My point is that unless you write a teenage or adult Spike as exactly the same character as baby dragon Spike, you're going to need to develop some amount of additional characterization for him. Who is to say that X or Y bit of characterization is objectively wrong outside of personal preference? It's going to need to flow in some fashion from Spike as we see him in the show, but a decade or so of time to grow up is room for a fair amount of development in whatever direction we're talking. Well, assuming that the story in question bothers with that, but that's another issue.
That said, I could easily be the one missing the point here because I don't really get what it is that "a small percentage of fanon wants to be true despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary" is referring to. It's not like Spike has a monopoly is being written badly, I've read enough here to see that happen to any and every character.
3345945 its that people think that he's already got the mentality of a young adult or teenager. They are in denial that he's a child. That is my point.
Every time someone draws Spike like that, a puppy gets run over.
3346203 and then consumed by carrion eaters.
Personally, I find the fact that he has the mind and heart of an adult but the temperament of a baby the most fascinating thing about Spike. He's more than capable of understanding things on a mature and reasoned level because of his environment (ponies grow and die faster than dragons after all, so it would make sense for him to grow intellectually faster than other dragons might as he was raised by ponies), but constantly gets tripped up by the emotional neediness of his baby dragon side because he still hasn't learned that level of control. And to be honest, how could ponies help him deal with a dragon's emotions in the period the show puts him in? I would imagine raising a dragon the "dragon way" requires a LOT of patience and willingness for the whelps to mess up and make the mistakes that kids make as they move from innocent ignorance to knowledge and mastery over their environment. Such a process is likely to take decades on the scale of dragon lifespans. A dragon fifty years old could (keyword: COULD) be comparable to a ten-year-old human/pony, emotionally speaking IMHO.
Perhaps Spike's problem as a character and why he is portrayed the way he is in the show isn't because there is something wrong with Spike himself; perhaps he is in an environment that is forcing him to mature far faster than most dragons his age would be expected to in their natural environment. Plus, remember how he hatched? He had to be zapped with some intense magic by Twilight Sparkle while still in the egg. Why? I wonder if the circumstances of his hatching have an unintentional consequence....
I guess the reason why I rambled on about this is because I wanted to demonstrate the idea that you need to know where a character is before you age/move/transform/crap-all-over(waitwhat)/etc. him/her into something else, or even expand on what is already present in the character. If you don't do your research, then why should X version of Spike that you made still be Spike? It's a valid question; maybe such stories would be stronger if said dragon was an OC rather than Spike.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Make of them what you will.
3346266 I have never seen any evidence of Spike having the heart and/or mind of an adult in the canon.
That's the whole point of the other examples. Just because a kid is smart doesn't mean he is an adult inside.
I always thought of Spike as sort of a home-schooled kid, like I was. When you're home-schooled, you spend a lot of time around adults, and pick up their mannerisms and vocabulary more quickly than other kids. So you sometimes come across as a miniature adult, but you're not, because you don't have the benefit of experience, or emotional and physical development.
I can testify that everything Wanderer says is true.
3346203 Every time someone writes a parallel fifth, Bach murders a kitten.
(This is relevant somehow.)
Seriously!
If you want Spike to be older and more mature as a character, why not just put the story ahead on the timeline?
I mean, unless you need both Spike to act as an adult, AND the CMC as fillies, just make it take place a few years later.
3346375 What if Wanderer said his home was being pelted by hail the size of minivans?
obviously the art doesn't work because he doesn't have enough belt buckles on
My understanding is that the definition of Punk means 'a petulant or worthless child.' So, it really doesn't bother me if Spike is a Punk that looks like a teenager, even if he is mentally a child. Being a punk means he is the opposite of mature and wise.
I somehow feel the reverse situation would be a more likely scenario. I'm not really a fan of Spike, but I'm actually shocked the reverse situation hasn't befallen Twilight Sparkle, wherein her knowledge gets discounted because she was sheltered and/or home schooled. Granted, she still lived those extra years of her life, she's an adult supposedly, was 'trained by god,' and possesses great insight. However, in some ways, she is as naive as Spike, because knowing what to do in a situation, how to do it, and being able to do it alone or with the assistance of others are different things.
For instance, ones social status is assigned, achieved, ascribed, absconded, and acquired. Using ascribed status as an example, in a monarchy the children of royalty are born Knaves, which is one step above a peon. Through achieved status a peon can become a knave, and a slave can become a peon. With assigned status a person in charge like Princess Celestia, empowers someone with the ability to sanction or command others within her chain of influence on her behalf. However, for the sake of argument, if Twilight was seen as being inferior in some way (because she was a fat earth pony with a southern accent for instance), status ascribed to her intelligence would be less than half of what it actually is whether or not she was given command and influence by her fearless leader. Because of the perceived inferiority she would have to acquire a specialty or quirk to compensate for the shortfall.
Secondly, most humans reach peak conformity at around twelve years old. Meaning we ideally have the full range of social skills and the ability to differentiate reality from fantasy by that age, It's also about that time that we start to develop our personality disorders and failed coping mechanisms. That isn't to say our brains have finished developing, the prefrontal cortex isn't finished developing until we are in our mid twenties, giving us greater impulse control among other benefits. Labels like attention deficit disorder basically mean a person is disruptive, impulsive, inattentive or some combination of the three, which can undermine the authority of an autocratic leader. This does not necessarily mean that they are a threat to authority, or at risk for being 'left behind.' Such children are given medication and remedial social skills training __temporarily__ so that they can function on the level with their peers and to stem aggression, dependency, and anxiety. Being that attention deficit disorder is a developmental disorder, and the brain is fully developed around 25, chances are good they've already compensated for the shortfall by then.
Back to the issue of Spike the dragon, I'm not a big enforcer of the idea that being greedy is a character flaw, or that greedy people shouldn't be given the resources they need to develop because they will become uncontrollable monsters. On a personal level, I've always wanted adoration, fortune, and equal justice under the law. If you give me any of those aforementioned things, so long as you don't hurt me physically, financially, socially, or psychologically I'm in heaven. But, I think it sucks out loud that I cannot chase those things that bring me pleasure without coming off as a hedonistic child or an emotional vampire. Especially, when there are those lucky few that get so much of it, seemingly undeserved, with almost no training, expended effort, and a free pass should they leave a monumental crisis in their wake at every turn. I know the bible says the 'poor' are with you always, but given the context of the situation I genuinely believe 'greedy' was the intended translation.
Now, on the subject of a dragon's physical appearance being determined by their level of avarice satiated or otherwise... That's in cannon, you can bring it up with Faust. I'm using the concept in my story because Ranma actually is a teenager and his universe already has a teacher with a similar condition, if you want specifics You can find them here...
3348368 Yeah, I'm well aware of Miss Hinako. But that's not the point. In Hinako's case, she already is an adult, literally trapped in a child's body. My gripe here is that Spike is NOT an adult or a teenager even, trapped in a child's body. He's a child. In a child's body. And just because he can "grow" physically by different means, it doesn't equate him being a real teenager or adult.
As for Twilight being an adult... who ever said she was? I've mentioned it in other places, but basically, she's at most 18 or so in my estimation. Well advanced in her studies and probably child-prodigy enough to pull a Doogie Howser, but not quite an adult yet. Her whole development has been a "coming of age" scenario. I don't think she reached adulthood until she became a Princess, to be quite honest and she's still learning.
3348419
I'm not entirely sure how old the characters really are in the series myself. Spike is probably half Twilights age at the moment, in my opinion, but I haven't the slightest clue how old she is. I kind of got the impression he was older than the cutie mark crusaders, I never saw him at the schoolhouse, and you need to be at least twelve to legally be a latchkey kid, otherwise its considered neglect. So she couldn't leave him behind when she went to the crystal empire that one time. And, I probably wouldn't trust anyone younger than 12 with a dog unsupervised for more than a few hours, much less a menagerie of animals for several days.
Television shows are weird like Anime in that they have 30 year olds playing teenagers. A good example of this would be Smallville where Tom welling was 27 years old and playing a 14 year old Clark Kent. But, I also watched Judging Amy in which he had an ongoing relationship with a middle aged judge. I never saw him as a 14 year old, and I felt that the absurdity of the situation hurt the suspension of disbelief of both series somehow. Honestly, it would have been more believable if the first five seasons of Smallville were set in his final year of High School.
Even if Spike looks like a badass scourge, being that he's a punk, no authority in the land will take him any more seriously than any other Kid. I think I remember reading that Shaquille O'neil was six feet tall by the time he was 12 years old, Obviously he wasn't an adult, but being so large I'm sure he thought highly of himself. I realize most humans spend the first thirty years of their life in training, only to get a job and learn trade skills. And, it's probably a throwback to the spartan idea of training warriors from the time they're seven years old until they achieve some measure of professional aptitude, or can offer their services up as mercenaries. But, until maybe century ago, children were also viewed as miniature adults or homunculi. At this stage I would expect Spike to have the same values and moral standards as Twilight when he's in his 'right' mind, but the series really hasn't established what inherited behavioral patterns dragons possess except need, want, take. If dragons possess the genetic memory of previous generations, like the Dax symbiote from Star Trek or Venom from Spiderman, it's possible Spike could just be the latest easily overwhelmed personality of a very old Smaug.
Also, I should probably mention a few years back on the east coast a group of kindergardeners were arrested for plotting the murder of their kindergarden teacher...Mr. Griffon would've never stood a chance. And, while that one didn't make as many headlines a team of eight year olds with a poin-dexter kill kit and everything made international news a few years back.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1006741/Eight-year-olds-planned-tie-teacher-stab-told-off.html
That being said CMC homicider cutie marks are go!