This is the kind of mentality about writing... · 10:59pm Sep 17th, 2014
...that pisses me off.
Do you see what's happening here? The belief that literary works are simply only valid IF they're books or scripts that are published/produced in a traditional manner.
It more than irks me when people think that the only way you deserve recognition as a writer of any sort is if you have a hardcover book under your arm and publish crap traditionally.
And that comment about "only if you have talent". Well dude, you might be talentless, but unless you want to say it to my face, don't accuse me of the same. And even if I didn't have talent—which is up to the readers to decide anyway—if people like what you write enough to pay you for it, who has the right to say you're undeserving of it?
Writing lately gets kicked around because it's not a visual medium. Never mind that all the big movies, and animations are generally based on freaking books. There's always someone that will go and give you a hard time because you're not drawing or not doing something obvious. As if a freaking painting could equal the nuances of a political-philosophical dissertation such as Gulliver's Travels.
Yeah. I went there. Draw whatever you want, you'll never get that out of a freaking drawing to the level of criticism and satire, no matter if you're JJ or effing Picasso. I don't care if you're a genius animator, without a solid story, your masterpiece? Falls short. You need a good story if it's going to be up there with the greats. Because no great movie is EVER made without writers.
Look at any studio. Animation or traditional movie making. Where does the whole thing start? In fucking writing. WRITING. The concept? You have to explore it. How? Writing.
First thing that Pixar does? Write.
First thing that the Godfather was? A fucking script.
What were the Lord of the Rings movies based off? NOVELS.
Don't fucking put down the value of writing just because it's not flashy or it doesn't play a tune in your ear that tortures you at night. And you know what? Writing can do that too! So take it in, understand it and assimilate it: Writing is NOT a lesser art. Good writing is NOT easy. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen just because you decide it does. It takes time and practice.
Not every soldier with a laptop out there is freaking Cold in Gardez.
Not every weirdo with a pen and paper is freaking Stephen King.
Just because you /think/ you can write philosophical fiction doesn't make you Paulo Cohelo.
Just because you like crows and think the rhymes you vomit on page about them while feeling depressed in high school are deep, doesn't mean you're Ted Hughes.
So, if you think writing is easy and you can do it just as well and you want to write original stories and do it just for fun, good for you. But don't come to me and tell me that I can't effing accept commissions if I damn want to. If someone likes my words enough to pay me for them, that is their right to offer and mine to accept.
Can confirm. Bump.
Agreed 100%. And god, what an asshole that person is.
God damn right.
How do these people think the professionals got that way in the first place? Sure wasn't by listening to chumps on dA who think everything should be free.
Incidentally my wife makes a tidy little pile writing on deviantArt (amongst other places). She surely does deserve the money she earns. This chap has no idea what he's talking about.
Discrimination.
Well said.
The belief that writing is worth less than art or music or animation somehow has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time.
Well said. Writing is as valid an art as any. Quite an amusing blog. I like your rants.
I agree with everything except that visual art can't achieve the level of nuance that writing can. It definitely can just in a different way. good visual art can't be taken in in 5 seconds. it has to be looked at and studied and there may be little tiny details that reveal more than you would think unless you knew exactly what it might mean, and then infer what it does given context. I can't understand visual art to that degree, I much prefer literature, but I have a friend who studies fine art and art history and the things he's told me about art and it's meaning, though I may not be capable of understanding them myself, lead me to strongly disagree with that statement. It's hypocritical and detrimental to the argument you put forward. Yes people may wrongly believe literature is a lesser medium, but the opposite does not need to be, and should not be true.
images.wikia.com/mlpfanart/images/d/d7/Octavia_Clapping.gif
*slow claps* Exactly. It's hard writing, heck I put in 6 - 18 hr days [minus the 1-3 week breaks every 30k - 75k, and the time it takes pre-readers / editors to comb over my stuff]. And if a person such as yourself wants to get paid for all that hard work. As well as the mental and labor efforts that go into it. You should be free to get paid from those who want to pay you for your art.
Btw, sorry I haven't joined your patreon thing, I simply don't have the free money to consistently give every month. Still, that person's a tard and you shouldn't let those who can't appreciate true art [regardless of medium] get to you. That and you should send those people here just to take a dump on his stance of being published.
Anyways, your fans like your work and you shouldn't let some naysayers get under your skin. *gives a cheering up cookie*
I am reminded of the concept of "signalling" you can find on Overcoming Bias and Less Wrong.
It's the idea that, just like a peacock has evolved a big, flashy, useless tail to show off how successful he is to females by thriving in spite of it, humans do similarly idiotic things to prove different points.
In this case, getting a story accepted by a publishing company and having it printed and being paid for it would be the big, flashy, useless tail.
Also, you have to remember: self-publishing, web publishing, widely available fanfiction and a culture that doesn't want to pay for entertainment are all extremely new things, and its possible that they will change soon as society adjusts.
You can already see the first signs of this in the rise of webcomics, or in the huge success of 50 shades
Wait, people pay you to write stories for them? Why? What are they gonna do with those stories? I can understand making art (and I'm not saying you shouldn't get paid) but I don't understand why anyone would commission someone to write a story, unless of course they wanted a ghost writer.
As for making money off of fanfiction...doesn't that technically violate copyright laws? I mean, if I were to write a novel about freaking bunnies and rainbows, I couldn't have Darth Vader as the main character because that would be basically stealing someone else's original character and making money off of it.
Me, I've never made a dime off of anything I've ever written. Hell, I've never written anything that I personally felt was decent. My "library" is full of unfinished novels, outlines, and shit. But I try not to let that discourage me, because failure is just another way to victory.
Or maybe everything I'm saying is absolute bullshit. I don't know.
2462925 I think there's some confusion here as to what I mean: Yes, you can have a shitload of symbolism (imagined or intended) on great pieces of art. Absolutely. Without a doubt, I am 100% with you on that.
But, it's symbolism placed there. It has a completely different approach. It doesn't explore a concept like a book does. It presents an idea, raw and right there for a person to contemplate. But it's not going any further than that. It's NOT less valid, at all, but it stops where literature begins.
2462941 Ah okay. I understand what you're saying now.
2462937
So does fan art. So much so, that certain 'arts' were taken down because they were literally using material from the show.
People can pay you for writing a story for them. Why not? What if you want a story, and you have a concept, but you'd like it to be written by someone who you respect or like their writing? Why not commission a story from them? Doesn't have to be fan-fiction. It's a commodity: you are getting something you want for your money.
Nice job calling his bullshit.
~Skeeter The Lurker
2462956 Sure, I agree. It just kinda surprised me, because outside of journalistic opportunities I've never really heard of someone being commissioned to write stories.
Talent is such an overused word these days, sure some are talented but others work hard to achieve their goals and should to some extent be given more praise.
And I think you touched on it but being paid to do work is the difference between an amateur and a professional, a difference in skill level isn't needed.
Couldn't agree with this more—but then, this person's attitude doesn't even work for art. There are mediocre artists taking commissions and doing art trades every day, and that's fine because work is work even if you're not the best, and the same goes for writing.
As it is, our society has grown into having a serious problem with the whole "rock star" image in a lot of fields. People want to be adored by millions and disregard anyone who isn't. They think the only "success" is in being Tolkien or Picasso without even realizing that historically, many influential creative minds never saw or profited from their work's success.
I'd like to think we're growing out of it, though. Pretty much all the music I listen to these days is independently published, if it's 'published' at all, and while I can't say the same about video games, there's a strong community there, too. I have hopes for fanfiction, and I smile any time I see anyone with a Paetron regardless of the field.
Unfortunately, there will always be people who only think the best of the best are worthy of compensation, or even attention, and they're the same people who will never write or draw, learn a second language or do anything of value because they think you start at the finish line.
In rerality, there is no finish line.
Commissioning a story is like commissioning an artist to draw you a picture. It takes no less talent, yet people still bitch about having stories commissioned.
For me it completely depends on whether that work is a Fanfiction or an actual original work. It seems a little crappy to take someone else's work and make money off of it. I don't think you should be paid for the characters in a story, or the setting or something like that. I'd still pay you for a printed copy of one of your fanfictions, because of printing and exporting costs and such, or a non-published full work, cuz yeah, thats bullshit to not be paid for something that you made completely on your own. I might even pay you if you simply asked me or you needed money, and I think I've donated to like 7 Patreons (don't quote me on that) now for specifically that purpose.
For me, that also goes for art and cartoons and games. Well, technically its all a form of art, really, and all of it should be treated the same. Works that are based upon someone else's work should not be used to gain money.
2463029 And that's cool. It's a moral stance: take money for fan work or no. That falls down completely under a person's choice. But the point I made to him is that the work is valid, and just because it's a different medium doesn't mean it's more deserving of money or not. Whether you take it or not, that's up to you.
That's fine and all. The only issue I ever see with being paid to write fan fiction is when the writer only sees those $ signs and throws away everything that makes their writing worth reading to simply crank out some piece of shit that the commissioner is going to like anyways because it's a self insert with whatever waifu they have. Another issue I have is the Patreon stuff, like... I get commissions, but Patreon for fan fiction... eh.
If I like your writing enough to want to give you money, I don't need a link to a Patreon, Tip Jar, PayPal account... I think you get what I mean.
Well said. That asshole is stupid, plain and simple.
Everyone has to start somewhere and if someone wants to take comissions as there road to be a professional writer I dont think anyone has any right to say that they cant or that they are wrong in doing so. All it really is is a deal between two people in witch one pays the other to create something.
2463040 I agree you have the right to accept commissions and such. Its like paying a contractor to make your house, or asking a consultant to do your taxes. Those people have skills that you don't, because you have your own life to deal with.
I guess I just feel like idea's should be the most protected and defended, because they are what cause change and bring people together, and I think money trivializes the idea. I don't know.
(Ohmyoshohmygoshohmgosh, he responded. Squeee
.)
Is it bad for me to go to his homepage and commented in a poorly-written insult?
I'm sorry to say that there was a time when I would have agreed with him/her on that last point that they make. Not anymore, of course -- but it really makes me cringe thinking about how awful my attitude towards fanfiction used to be back when I was in university (in fact, thinking about my attitude to most stuff back when I was in uni makes me cringe). I’m probably being too optimistic for my own good here, but just because this guy holds these views now, it doesn’t mean that s/he always will.
Which isn’t to say that comments like that aren’t completely infuriating to read, let alone receive.
Hit the nail on the head there. Some of the best stories I’ve ever read is right here on fimfic. Some of the worst stories I’ve ever read were ones that I paid good money for. ‘Only those that have talent should be charging’ is such a strange and horrible attitude to take.
2462891
So... he does it for free?
I agree Wanderer D, if someone likes something enught to support it the creator Should be allowed to recive it, heck, people throw money at Kickstarters for Indie-games, ie, NOT tripple-A games and no one complains there getting 'free' money.
Keep doing what you want and keep being awesome D, keep being awesome.
I would say something, but you took the words right out of my mouth.
It's like the people I have dealt with sine early high school, who still can't read faster than a couple of words per ten-second period. When I can finish multiple chapters by the time the fastest of my peers finishes a freaking paragraph, there's something wrong with American, starting at the education level.
The worst part is that so many people in my age bracket (18-24) don't even want to read, and many who almost can't. They lack any form of vocabulary beyond an intermediate 6th-grader's, and often resort to making up words. It stupefies me.
And then, there's the people that complain when a new movie or tv series is bashed on by people who've read the books they're based on, and don't like them because they corrupt or distort the characters and stories to make them more 'fit' for a modern audience.
TL:DR
I agree with you, and sometimes I want to get sent to jail for going on a murderous rampage and killing as many ignorant people as I can. I quash that, because I don't think I can make a dent in the willfully ignorant part of the population.
Literary works, both fan-fiction and otherwise, have been the largest part of my down time for a good three years now. I'm ALWAYS reading in some form or another, especially if I'm not in the middle of Dynasty Warriors Gundam or Mass Effect.
Reading... It brings me peace and arouses feelings that other mediums just cannot compare with. The written word has been my first and foremost escape from certain things in my life that are better left buried in the past, and I can honestly say that without JRR Tolkein, JK Rowlings, Christopher Paolini, and various and sundry other authors (Yourself included, Wanderer D) I would be so much less of the man I am today I'd have been dead in a ditch somewhere.
Everything in life breaks down into reading, in one form or another. I've learned more from immersing myself in a good story than most others have in their entire lives (even if I can't recall everything at the drop of a pin).
Yeah, that argument always cracks me up, because 50 Shades of Gray continues to be a thing that sells in stores.
In general, I agree with everything you said here. Fanfiction IS writing. Writing well ISN'T easy. If you can make money off of fanfiction... well, there might be some legal challenges there, but it should at least be acknowledged as legitimate writing and judged on its quality accordingly.
I used to think that way, that visual arts were just so much more interesting and that writing, at the end of the day, was just...words on paper. Then, I decided I wanted to be an English teacher and changed my major to English, which includes taking literary analysis and theory courses. All I can say after that is HOLY FUCK you can do just about anything you want with writing. The fact that I've written papers longer than 10 pages on 35-line poems shows that writing is possibly the most powerful artistic form, and I dare anyone to try to say otherwise. Because I love art, hell, I'm more of an artist than a writer nowadays, but anyone who believes writing is lesser is simply a fool.
And that's just it Wanderer D, movies are based off of books. Movies are very nice to watch, but I feel that movies only just show you in a nice manner what a person (movie director) imagines from the story.
Each of those big movies would be better enjoyed when you read it from the book it came from.
Which reminds me of this quote: "I love books, by the way, way more than movies. Movies tell you what to think. A good book lets you choose a few thoughts for yourself."
- Karen Marie Moning
Very well said my good sir. It isn't easy. It does take both practice and time. I personally feel the fact that he doesn't see it or figure that thought means he doesn't read too many books.
...Actually you don't have to read a lot to know that either which makes him looks terrible.
I wonder when will he get that the true "visual medium" is seeing through the imagination.
That was just an outright offense. Everyone has talent. I believe everyone could be a writer with lots practice and determination.
So, all in all, what he said pretty much sums up his mentality to ignorance.
...Do I confuse anyone?
2462937
2463029
It's simple enough to say that, but what is "profiting"? Is taking a commission "profiting" on someone else's IP? You're not using the IP to attract business, so I'd say not. Is taking donations for a freely available work 'profiting'? Much more likely, yet money is actually of secondary relevance to what copyright law is about.
Copyright law is actually about protecting the interests of the copyright holder. Third party works can damage the image of the property in question as well as reduce demand. The first is actually worse if the third party product in question is given away freely; the second is debatable. If you assume someone is going to spend $10 on My Little Pony products, then you might think that a $5 knockoff might cut that profit in half, but on the other hand, if someone just wanted a Twilight Sparkle toy, it doesn't matter if the knockoff is $5 or free, that's still less the cost of one toy—which could be $10 or more, I don't even know.
The reason we get particularly upset over people making money with copyright violations is really more about the simple offense of the concept than any real requirement of justice or morals. Perhaps in the case of actual product knockoffs, a monetary profit could result in higher budgets, and therefore products that are more able to compete with the original, but that's obviously not the case here.
Really, copyright has gotten way out of hand in our society, and applying it to something like My Little Pony is actually quite ridiculous. Why? Ask yourself, what is the purpose of the My Little Pony IP?
Obviously, it's to sell toys. Certainly, the show brings in a tidy sum from advertisers, but the IP can't be separated between the toys and the show. Selling toys isn't the sole purpose, but it's a big one.
Now ask yourself, what does one DO with toys?
You play with them. You make up stories for them, and you trot them across the table, pretend they are real and let you imagination go wild.
Fanfiction is, arguably, an extension of that.
So tell me, in what world would someone have a problem with a product like DnD being used for its intended purpose? In what world is it a bad thing for you to contribute to your DM so he can take a few less hours at work and put together a good campaign for you and your group?
The fact is, we don't even have a functional copyright law, let alone one that works with common sense. No one would think twice about playing a CD at a party, but do it on a stream and it's a problem. You could play Enya while you teach a neighborhood Tai Chi class, but do the same thing on YouTube and someone else gets your money. We've been trained to think that anything you do with someone else's product is bad, even if it's completely tangential to the matter at hand.
Hasbro isn't complaining about fanfiction or fanart donation jars or commissions, so there's no need to do so on their behalf. People put hundreds of hours of work into these stories, that work has value, even if it's got bits of someone else's IP in it.
Besides, you realize that this site runs ads, right? A handful of authors might have Paetrons, but every story view is a few pennies to someone else entirely. Same goes for EQD—but hey, that's fine, right? They're providing a unique service, even if it involves ponies...
Do you see an actual moral difference between making money writing fiction about ponies rather than nonfiction about ponies? Between making money running a site for people to find fiction about ponies on, and the producing the actual writing? I don't.
Fanworks are an integral part of developing a creative skill. Bands play covers in local gatherings, artists draw fanart on deviantart, and we write ponies here. There's no need to nitpick the legality and demonize it—you'll only hurt people.
What a nice circlejerk
It took me a long time to figure out that I was a writer. It wasn't something that I just started doing a few years ago, I've been doing this since Elementary. It always comes as a shock to me when people read my stuff and like it.
People ask, "Ben, how do you do it?" And I reply, "Fuck if I know." Talent isn't apparent, it's not like people just wake up and go, "Yeah, I'm really fucking good!" Talent is only noticed when others point it out. Without people being there to go, "It was pretty alright," I wouldn't have even known that I was such a good goddamn writer.
If everybody only read/watched/listened to Hollywood tier shit, nobody would know if their shit was good shit or bad shit, so nobody's shit would make it to the big shit.
People also need to realize that writing takes time, at least for most. To have somebody sit down and shit out their magnum opus for a commission, only to have someone go, "You don't deserve that money!" is bullshit. Actually, it's basic economics, trading a service in exchange for money. It's just like any other job, you can be shitty at it or exceedingly good, either way, you're putting time into it (hopefully.)
That's like going up to a local orange seller and going, "Hey! You put that shit back on that tree! Are you a mass producer? No? Then get your fuckery out of my face, I only want A listed orange dealers!"
In fact, let's just make the entire world devoid of any kind of literature, art, and music that doesn't come out of Hollywood. The world would be better off anyway, right?
2463087 That would be bad, please don't do it.
"The Raven" is by Edgar Allen Poe. Ted Hughes wrote "The Crow."
Preach it.
2463284 Good catch.
2463178 True words those.
Your points always get my personal
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2463242 First off, I am not doing it for the company. My own sense of morals just doesn't think making money off of someone else's ideas, settings, and characters is morally justified. I don't care about copyright, I don't care about Hasbro, and I don't care about the resailability of children's toys. I don't even care about the legality of it.
Second off, I do in fact see an arguable difference between running a SERVICE and creating a GOOD. EQD is a service, that needs some sort of revenue in order to stay online. Same goes for FimFiction. They do not make content themselves. They just gather it, and let whatever happens happens. I mean, they write little blurbs about it and such, or send out information pertaining to the site, but those are just in support of the service. Fanfiction is a good, a fiscal construct in Economics used to define a things consumers would pay to have for there own desire or need. Since its a good, it is dependent upon consumer interaction. A service only bring things together for a community. A good is only for the individual who buys it. If there is an economic distinction, their can be a moral distinction.
Lastly, I am not demonizing anything. I am pointing out my own personal views on this subject. And my personal views aren't trying to dissuade people from seeing it the way they saw it. In fact, my original post wasn't even a good argument.
You seem angry today. Sorry about that.
I have friends in the indie publishing business, so I have even more reasons to add to why that viewpoint is sad. It saddens me that people believe that someone's writing isn't worth it unless they are behooven to a Publishing company - and for a lot of authors that haven't hit it really big, many publishing companies like to take advantage of that, and negotiate their way into controlling your writing, if you want to be published with them.
(And that goes in all sorts of industries. Signing up with a company can get you in trouble in the music business, too, among other things.)
Anyways, anyone with even half a brain and who even slightly pays attention to the world around them realizes that publishing deals /= (is not equal to) talent. Everyone knows (or should know) that a ton of crap gets published without any real talent or quality going into it.
2463242 Too long, didn't read, don't really care. Also to Tartarus with EQD. And now I want ice cream.
2463260 To be honest I kind have to agree with you.
2463389
Commissions are a service, as, arguably, is anything you take donations for since there is no direct product-for-money exchange taking place.
If you seriously think that the services that EQD or FimFiction offer add more value to the equation than an author's writing due to one level of abstraction, though, then I'm not even going to bother discussing it; there's no point.