Dang it, Star Swirl! · 9:15am Aug 9th, 2014
Star Swirl the Bearded. One of the biggest mysteries of the franchise, and one that I'll be delving into a tad in The Conquering of Love, later on. How in-depth, I am just not sure, mostly because I am just utterly confused by this guy.
The problem with Star Swirl is that he's depicted in so many ways. Let's look at this.
First mentioned in Luna Eclipsed, Twilight tells Spike a little about him. We gather that he was an important and ingenious unicorn.
Second mentioned in Hearth's Warming Eve. According to the pageant, he was the mentor of Clover the Clever. From the context in this episode, we can assume that this is a story from before Celestia and Luna, given that the unicorns were still in charge of the whole sun/moon thing. We can also assume that this is before Discord's reign, then, because Celestia and Luna were the ones who defeated him.
What we know so far: Star Swirl lived more than 1,000 years ago, and was already a mentor to someone. He could have been young, I suppose. Just a prodigy?
Third mentioned in It's About Time, where we find out he had a time travel spell. This particular time travel spell was only able to send someone back in time for a few seconds.
He was of course a pivotal part of Magical Mystery Cure since his unfinished masterpiece is what ultimately sends Twilight on her path to becoming a princess. We learn that he did not understand friendship, at least not like Twilight does.
Twilight and Cadence go to a Star Swirl exhibit in Three's a Crowd.
Next, he was mentioned in Twilight's Kingdom. It is said that Scorpan and Tirek came to Equestria, and Scorpan befriended Star Swirl and abandoned their dark plans. This is where the Star Swirl story begins to take a really mysterious form. According to Celestia, Scorpan "Told us of Tirek's plans." She is referring to herself and Luna. In other words, Scorpan came to Equestria with Tirek, befiended Star Swirl (Who was YOUNG at the time??), and then told Celestia and Luna about Tirek.
What the buck?
There's a couple things to note here. First, the "young unicorn wizard" that Celestia said Scorpan befriended was never named as Star Swirl. However, the visual shows a unicorn that resembles Star Swirl. However, that depicted unicorn does not have the bells right on the hat, which was pointed out as being an important aspect of Star Swirl's outfit. Every other proper depiction of Star Swirl int he series thus far has shown him to have many bells around the rim of his hat, including the banner in Three's A Crowd when Cadence and Twilight go to the exhibit.
Let's not say that the unicorn from that was not Star Swirl just yet, though.
Instead, let's delve into alternate media, meaning things that are not the show.
First off, let's look at The Journal of the Two Sisters. This is a book that was written by Amy Keating Rogers. She's also a writer for the show, so I'd like to think that this book is about as canon as a product can be, but after looking over it (I admit I have not read the whole thing), there seems to be a lot of inconsistency. Never the less, Star Swirl is mentioned in this book. More than mentioned, though, he's a part of it. The time line for the show really begins to break down here, sadly. Continuity appears to be quite a bit broken. Discord is not once mentioned in this book. Furthermore, Star Swirl is present along with all the characters from Hearth's Warming Eve. How long are these ponies living? Sheesh. Next, we find out that Star Swirl had been trying to create a time travel spell, but it goes wrong and is actually an age spell, which makes him younger again. I suppose this could explain why he'd be around at the same time as Celestia and Luna... except that he discovers this spell while he's with them, and all those other Hearth's Warming characters are there, too. This, to me, really reeks of plot holes the size of trucks. Not sure how seriously this thing should be taken... ugh. I mean, so far, you can make sense of Star Swirl within the show's timeline other than if you assume he's the young unicorn from the S4 finale. This just scraps everything in order to toss him into the story.
And then in the comics we're shown yet another Star Swirl story in which he knows Celestia and Luna.
Are we ever going to get a decent explanation for this stuff in the show? I wonder...
In any case, I really though I had my head wrapped around this character, and now that I've reviewed all the data, I am still pretty clueless on this pony's timeline and such.
In a way, the little mini-comics after the main comics, about him getting his hat, might just be a commentary on this. Who can say what's real and what's legend? In the end, I'll forge my own world, even if it's not 100% show-canon-plausible. It's already going that direction with Luna, anyway.
I think Pinkie Pie probably said it best in comic #19. "Our world doesn't even make sense! Why should this one? Who cares about continuity!"
I see you didn't mention the
stargatemirror. Any inconsistency can be waved away with mirror worlds and time travel.The writers knew exactly what they were doing with those arcs.
2355767
Trolling so hard lol
Theory; Starswirl attempts to create time spell, creates age spell that turns him from elderly Unicorn (creating a time spell probably takes a long time) into a young unicorn, also possibly changing the speed at which he ages, thus allowing him to be Clover the Clever's mentor, then living long enough to meet Celestia and Luna. Since such a spell would be highly sought after, he becomes very secretive about his existence, revealing it only to certain ponies.
I award myself the Graham Cracker Conundrum Award (very tasty
)
If he developed an age spell that made him young again, maybe he was basically living forever until something happened?
Maybe he's still alive and just really, really reclusive.
Or maybe all the 1000 year ago stuff happened over the course of a few decades. Maybe Luna is Twilight's age if you don't count the moon years.
Well, the book mentioned that for one, alicorns are long living. Heck they (Celestia and Luna) don't even have their marks. They start the story about the same age as the CMC and end it as teens. Second, the story also mentioned that the Hearth's warming story happened just a few moments before the jounal even took place. So basically it happened like this, alicorns lived somewhere acient and legendary that was known only to a few. Starswirl along with the founders went to Luna and Celestia to ask themm to become rulers and protectors of the land. You'll also note that there is no set years that this takes place. So, since we know now that alicorns are long living then we can easily say that the book takes place over 20 years. This means that Hurricane and the others can be about 40 or 50 by the end of the book
Were Celestia and Luna the rulers of Equestria at the time they met Starswirl? If not, then it could be that they didn't take the throne until after defeating Discord.
If so, then Discord could have overthrown them and 'ruled' until they got the Elements and were able to dethrone right back.
2356165
Well, here's the exact quote from Celestia when she first speaks of Discord in the show.
This doesn't necessarily say anything about them being overthrown, she doesn't mention him taking their place as ruler. She also says that they "saw how miserable life was" which seems to imply to me that they came to that realization, not that they were usurped and had to take back power.
We know that they first found the elements in order to defeat Discord, so that happens DURING Discord's reign.
So, when exactly did Discord's reign occur? It has to be before Nightmare Moon's appearance, and it has to be after the founding of Equestria (He ruled over Equestria, specifically.)
I definitely need to get and read this Journal of the Two Sisters book. It was only mentioned to me yesterday by someone at my local card shop when playing the MLP CCG. I was told a couple things about the book that seemed to be "off" and wanted to investigate, but I was only able to find a rambling synopsis that doesn't go into very good detail on what is and isn't covered by Luna and Celestia's journal entries. From what the guy said to me then, apparently the book doesn't really mention when and how they became alicorns, though it does talk about them getting their cutie marks(?) and stuff like that.
I need to read it to make a full appraisal on its merits. If it's making this assumption that alicorns came from elsewhere and were somehow naturally occuring, and not "made", it's in direct conflict with TV show lore and I'm just not sure how much info can be safely cherry-picked from it without breaking things.
I wish people who made things like this were more careful with the world they've created.
2356017
From the rambling transcript I've seen, "The only reason the entries give as to why they were chosen was that they are alicorns; the combination of Earth, Pegasus and Earth ponies. It also introduces the two sisters as blank flanks who have yet to find their special calling in life. The sisters claim that while they are presumably decades old (Luna says she is many times older than Princess Platinum), they do not have their cutie marks because alicorns age differently than a regular pony."
This is in direct conflict with established lore about alicorns from the show. For all its flaws, at least the book "Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell" builds upon this already established lore with Cadence's background story. Furthermore, the original lore from episode 1 of the show claims that the two sisters were unicorns at first, so it's just completely throwing a wrench into everything. It may not have much merit as anything but an alternative telling, which is pretty frustrating for me, and many others out there, I am sure.
Ah, the good ol' Star Swirl problem.
Yeah, seems to be a pretty reliable and accurate depiction of that unicorn.
Had it rolling around in my head for some time, too.
My personal judgement: The guy who befriended Scorpan couldn't have been Star Swirl.
I mean, where is the connection between 'a young unicorn wizard who befriends Scorpan' and 'Star Swirl the Bearded who didn't really understand friendship'?
An illustration in a book? By an artist who depicts Tirek as monochrome grey?
2356879
Yeah, and that sort of makes me wonder about the comics, too. I mean, Star Swirl in the comics seemed to understand friendship well. He did choose to tell Celestia to not go see Sombra anymore, but that was for the sake of the world. It appeared to be a tough decision.
There's just too much inconsistency as Hasbro has rushed to flesh out the background stories of Equestria's past without much care, that's what I think has really happened.
2356917 Well two things I would like to bring up, While yes every one has a point I am just trying to add my own two cents in hope to help.
1) Think of Twilight Sparkles' name it's also her mother's named Velvet Twilight Sparkles, we could just be dealing with a family that uses similar names and we never hear the difference. Like one could have been Bell Star swirl the Bearded. something like that. I mean think of the Apple family of the Pie family.
2) Then there is the type of unicorn Star Swirl may be, you see did you know that while they used dark magic as an excuse for the fangs and sharp horn there is actually a type of unicorn that is like that.
Star Swirl may be an Asian style they are said to have pronounced beards even when they are colts and it become more so as they age.
Like I said this is just some possible theory and I just want to put the ideas out there.
Star Swirl might have made something important for Celestia, so she remembers him from all other unicorns, even though others worked hard too. Maybe the age spell. Or something to do with tribes and the Tree.
2357029
Well, we don't even need to assume this type of thing. The young unicorn in the S4 finale is not identified as Star Swirl.
You talking about Sombra?
That's interesting. It doesn't help with the problem, but it's definitely interesting.
Wild speculation, but perhaps the stories concerning Star Swirl mix up him and an ancestor sometimes? Or maybe the actual Starswirl the Bearded was inspired by a figure in history. Was there a previous Starswirl (without the 'Bearded' part)? I mean Celestia and Luna have that book and the relation between the spell and the Elements of Harmony seems a bit more than mere coincidence. Especially considering that nothing happened to Twilight, but it did happen to her friends, seemingly in their absence.
2357618
Yes I was, Sombra would middle European type, what country it came form I am not sure. They were believed to be embodiments of wrath, killers and evil with no restraints.
2357954
Nifty! Definitely fits him!
2357919
A lot of theories could be applied to the "unfinished masterpiece" too. It may not have had anything to do with the elements in particular, but cutie marks. The elements took the form of the others' cutie marks, which may have linked them together so to speak, so when the spell was cast, they were targeted. Twilight was not targeted because she was the caster. Alternatively, it could be that Twilight wasn't affected because the Element of Magic was her cutie mark to begin with. That was one cute thing that was apparently addressed in the Journal of the Two Sisters. Celestia apparently asked Star Swirl about the Element of Magic's shape, and it was revealed that it was a cutie mark. When she wondered if she'd ever meet that pony, Star Swirl said that it was possible with a gleam in his eye, or something like that. Like he knew. But of course, I am still skeptical of the overall value of that book. I am still trying to come up with a plausible timeline, without using time travel, to explain the inconsistencies. Time travel is such a cop-out, although it could be used to explain everything since you can just say "Star Swirl traveled through time." I suppose it's a possible explanation within continuity since he had a weak time travel spell. Who could say if he ever perfected it. Maybe he ended up going back in time and was unable to go back to the future. Like, maybe he lived in Celestia and Luna's time, traveled back in time to the pre-Equestria era, and couldn't get back. It feels like a pretty WEAK explanation, though.
I'll also mention again that I am really loathe to accept the idea that Celestia and Luna were acquainted with the Equestrian founders. That story just doesn't jive with me for so many reasons. It would have to get explained pretty thoroughly. Like, assumptions we have to make that go against current lore are numerous if we want to accept that explanation, most importantly we'd have to accept that there's apparently some sort of alicorn land somewhere, and I am reallllllllllllllllly against that. If that becomes canon, I'll be pretty upset. Like, nothing within the show has really made me mad as of yet. Twilight alicorn I am okay with. Rainbow Power is cool by me. Library blowing up is fine. Sudden appearance of an alicorn foalsitter princess is perfectly okay, she's pretty neat. But alicorn land? Please, please, please no... It really robs something special from the alicorns. They achieved that form, they weren't born with it. They freaking EARNED IT! Being born with that form is a stupid idea. I never liked the idea of alicorns being a normally occurring creature, even before season 3 showed us they weren't. Prior to season 3, I'd conceived a fanfiction where Twilight finds out about alicorns and the fact that they are made rather than born, and further finds out that she's the successor to Luna that's told of in an ancient prophecy, and that Celestia and Luna have kept that from her. that makes her mad, but only because it was kept from her. More shocking though is that Rainbow Dash fits the description of Celestia's successor, and when RD finds out, she is not happy at all. She doesn't want to do it. And the story would move from there with Twilght and Rainbow having to learn to accept their future responsibilities. And I came up with that before season 3. Before Conquering of Love, even, I think. I have a post about it on my Deviant Art blog. So yeah, I'm a fan of the alicorns being made idea. The fact that it's earned made it even cooler to me. Even cooler than just "Some ponies are destined to become them."
Anyway, that rambled on a long time.
TL;DR Star Swirl and "born" alicorns pretty much enrage me when I think about them. Okay, Star Swirl a bit less, it's just his timeline that makes me mad.
2356705
My understanding of events was that Discord took over Equestria some time after Tirek's defeat but before Sombra's defeat and the birth of Nightmare Moon.
It was my head canon that Celestia and Luna were well respected for their alicorn powers and wisdom, which is why Scorpan went to them to defeat his brother, but that they didn't become rulers of Equestria until after Discord. With the ponies needing their guidance to re-build their society after the madness and chaos.
I don't know if there are any official sources that contradict this though.
2358050
Well, I had gotten into my head somewhere along the line that Discord was the first battle they had. The assumption I made was that when Celestia said that Discord ruled over Equestria in an eternal state of chaos, there's an implication there that it was for a long time. I think they beat him and that's when they became the rulers of the land.
Nightmare Moon was obviously the last event for the two of them.
I used to think that maybe Celestia and Luna weren't even the ones that beat Sombra. After all, they never say it was them in the show (Go look, I assure you, they never say it.) and we only see SHADOWY figures fighting against Sombra. For a while I was thinking maybe it was two other alicorns, or maybe their parents if the "born" alicorns theory is true... but I ditched that once we found out that alicorns were "made" - and to be honest, it fits just fine that they beat him.
So, the way I figure it, in my head anyway, is like this...
1. Discord
2. Tirek
3. Sombra
4. Nightmare Moon
To go into, for just a sec, why I think Tirek is 2nd... I assume that once Discord was gone, that's what triggered Tirek and Scorpan to come. Without Discord to possibly stand against them as they went on a rampage in the land that he technically ruled over, they thought they could get away with it.
Also, I thought this was maybe my most-viewed blog post ever, but then I checked, and first there was this one where I announced that I was writing a Cheerilee/Big Mac shipfic and linked to the first chapter on google docs, and that one had like... 500-something views. I deleted it because the fanfic is on the site now, and I can only imagine people were going to it after searching for cheerimac stuff to read.
Next highest viewed, amusingly to me, is titled "I will destroy you and steal your fiancee" with the body "Booty booty booty booty rockin' everywhere."
2358092
That makes sense, but it could be that they refered to it as an 'eternal' state of chaos because it could have taken hundreds of years before they were able to locate the Tree of Harmony. So, at the time it seemed like nothing could have brought an end to Discord's reign.
I agree with the thought that Celestia and Luna were made rulers in the wake of his defeat, but I think they had had to live through his entire reign, start to finish... And that they took it upon themselves to bring it to an end because they alone remembered what life was like before Discord.
I think Discords rise to power must have happened after the founding of Equestria, because otherwise there wouldn't have been an Equestria for the Sisters to be named rulers of after his defeat, and I think that Celestia and Luna must have been born at about the same time of it's founding to have met the founders, and to have taken responsibility of the sun and moon from the unicorns, possibly due to them being too few in number after the great blizzard.
I also suspect that maybe the incredible act of having to be the first to move sun and moon by themselves was what qualified them to become alicorns in the first place, as well as earning their Cutie marks. But that's just theory at this point.
2358247
Well, if that book I've been complaining about is to be believed, they got their cutie marks by raising and lowering the sun and moon by themselves. Apparently it normally took six unicorns to do it, and they would eventually lose their magic or something after a certain number of times doing it. They were always alicorns.
But like I keep saying, that book is full of inconsistency.
Of course, even the show itself isn't without inconsistency. Just look at how Luna looked at the end of episode 2 and then compare that to how she looked in the flashback in Season 4 episode 2. They dun goofed!
2358561
The prevailing theory about that was that the Elements had changed her form by stripping her of her powers. This ties into the theory of them being born as unicorn sisters and then later ascending, as it would mean that the Luna seen in S1 was the form closest to how she looked as a unicorn, much like how Twilight still looks much the same as she did as a unicorn.
2358730
Yeah, even though it was probably just an error, or more likely, just the staff not planning ahead. The decision to make her look more like Celestia was probably made later, and they just rolled with it. I bet if they ever "re-made" those pilot episodes, they'd make Luna look like she did in later episodes.
I am sure i am not the only one who think The Pony of Shadow might be Starswirl
Clearly I should get a hold of these books you refer to so I can read them.
I don't really have a problem with alicorns being born persay although I'd expect a half decent explanation from any author proceeding with that premise as to where the rest got off to. My personal headcanon/possibly canon for that one story I was writing is that they're made, but that systems means there could potentially be at least a few more than just two or three.
No good reason for raging about that I can see, but I think most of us would like firmer continuity.
Actually, we can tell from Granny Smith that the average life span of a normal pony is at LEAST 100 years. So is it really that unlikely that a colt prodigy mentored Clover the Clever, and then, in the new land, with the newly crowned rulers, helped stop an invasion at around age 50, which would still be fairly young for a pony. He then befriends the rulers and becomes their court mage, where he studies magic and creates the an-something spell and the time spell, and all his other guff.
#Longlivetheponies!
2361353
We have no idea how long ago Ponyville was founded, so we don't really know Granny's age. Considering it's less than the lifetime of an elderly pony, we can assume Ponyville is less than 100 years old, though. If we assume human equivalent life spans, we can assume Ponyville is probably 70 years old since Granny Smith looked a bit older than the CMC in those flashbacks. Of course, we don't really know the ages of the CMC either, but we can assume the equivalent of 9-12 years old. Give or take.
2372064 Twilight tells us it was hundreds of years ago. Owned.
2374392
When did she say that?
2374395 Winter Wrap Up
2374436
Surely an oversight or written in a script prior to Family Appreciation Day. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the writers decided later to come up with that Ponyville origin story involving Granny Smith without taking into account a single line of dialogue.
It could also perhaps be interpreted that Twilight is talking about Earth Ponies wrapping up winter and not necessarily the ponies of Ponyville, despite how that line is worded.
I'll need more than that to buy that ponies just naturally live hundreds of years.
2374526 Whatevs. Still tho, the timeline I said could still be a thing... Just with the whole Tirek thing being near the end of his life.