Something I Believe In · 3:00pm Aug 7th, 2014
I'm going to join PresentPerfect in signal boosting this because I feel like it's something worthwhile on this site. Golden Vision has written up a blog post asking readers here to give those comments a second thought before ripping a probably new author a new asshole for having the audacity to not yet be top tier.
Now, let's not confuse things. If you write to an author and say:
I can't say that I enjoyed this. Your story moves too quickly and Rainbow is out of character for the majority. For example, you have her blowing off her friends when they need help getting the faire up and running just because she wants to go see the air races. I don't think Rainbow Dash would do something like that. Additionally, you need to use consistent punctuation. It's very difficult to read a story when there are no breaks.
And the author responds:
Well, if you don't like it, go read something else! No one's making you read it, so fucking leave me alone!
I'm a little more sympathetic to people laying into the author at that point. However, I see a lot of:
This story literally gave my eyes cancer. You should delete it and then throw the computer you wrote it on into a volcano.
I have absolutely no patience for people that are looking to provoke a fight and then gleefully pointing out that the author can't take criticism. That piling on that occurs as people message their friends and everyone jumps on the story just disgusts me. It's immature, trollish bullshit. We have plenty of people here that are young. Plenty that have never written a story before (like me when I started here). Plenty that don't speak English fluently. Who knows how many of them jumped in with the best intentions and were ground into dust beneath the heels of Fimfiction's troll community simply for being inexperienced.
This is not to say that all of these authors are angels. There are quite a few that flip out at legitimately offered criticism. I've seen plenty of that, too, and I don't really mind seeing those people get a lesson in those cases. I'd just like to see people not assume that from the get go. I'd like to see an end to comments specifically designed to hurt rather than help. I'd like to see an end to people picking fights and then hiding behind "Lern 2 tak criticism, noob."
Well. Shit.
He beat me to it.
~Skeeter The Lurker
To the so called 'author' (notice the quotation marks I left there) of this so called 'blog' post (again, notice the quotes). This piece is possibly the worst thing I've ever read. Please send me your address so I may forward you my medical bill as my eyes started bleeding and I needed to be rushed to the hospital.
Please do us the courtesy of taking your computer and setting it on fire(please be careful of the fumes).
PS
Don't think I've not noticed the message hidden in the text.
Nice try, but I'm on to you. I know you are an agent of the molding block of cheddar lurking in the back of my fridge. You know, the one behind the expired jar of olives. If you think your conspiracy to trick me into opening the fridge and releasing it on to an unsuspecting world will work, then you are sorely mistaken.
I know. I know....
2351079 Rarity has a message for you:
It's cool, though. You can rip me. I'm not a new author. My feelings have been hopelessly crushed at this point, so there's no more damage to do!
2351062 I've actually been meaning to write something like this for a little while. Ever since Obs put up his "How to give and take criticism" site posts, but I just hadn't done it yet. Golden Vision did a better job with it than I probably would have, so I figured I'd just piggy-back off of it.
2351095
I've been toying around with it for long than Obs' post...
Just a general 'how to be decent in comments' deal.
~Skeeter The Lurker
Your story shows great potential for improvement (because it can't get any worse) and I think you should concentrate on several things (several hundred, but I only have so long to live, and I don't want to spend that typing). First, consider your spelling (or misspelling would be more appropriate. I think you actually left two whole words spelled right in this drek.) and grammar (or lack thereof. Really, did you find a semi-automatic comma cannon somewhere and just open fire on this thing?). Last but not least (actually it was least, because it was nonexistent) is plot. It was somewhat difficult to follow (I eventually just followed the slime trail) and inconsistent (using dice to determine character decisions would have been more logical), but with a little work (Nurse! We need a Plot Transfusion over here, stat!) and some care (intensive care), you may have a workable (lots and lots of work, much like a chain gang) story here.
2351115 Please don't get people around here thinking about 'plot' transfusions. You're going to start a whole new fetish group!
Also, if anyone is to be accused of using a semi-automatic comma cannon, it's me. Man, I over-comma like a mofo!
2351125 When I first started writing pony and got a part-time editor, the knee-jerk word of the day that drove me nuts was "Comma-Splice." I didn't have a sentence without one. Or double-negatives. I still have issues with those. But I'm getting better at leaving comments on stories I don't like. My rule is not to write anything inside the parenthesis (as above).
So all in all it's a case of 'do not assume malice where ignorance will suffice' ?
I'll admit that I don't comment on stories a whole lot these days, having become bitter and more than likely sociopathic, but I can't say I like Golden Vision's phrasing of the problem. He uses a lot of evocative wording to make it seem like we should all be careful lest we hurt some kid.
I've known kids. Kids are jerks. Kids are often the ones screaming about how sexual intercourse with my mom is apparently a common thing; and if they bring that attitude here then I would very much like to see them demolished.
TLDR: It's true that some people use it as an excuse to fling shit, but if the author is antagonistic then they pretty much have it coming.
2351148 Well, that's pretty much what I'm saying. There are people that are picking fights. I think those people should knock it off, be it the author or the commenters. There are plenty of examples of bad behavior on both sides.
2351160
An interesting question for you: Who do you think those people who like to pick fights are? What if they themselves are the 14/15 year olds Golden Vision is talking about?
Huh. I've left messages like the first one before and have never gotten negative feedback, but then again, I mostly only read stories suggested by various sources (John Perry suffers the Feature Box, Royal Canterlot Library, and One Man's Pony Ramblings, in particular).
2351171 I'm pretty sure a bunch of them are the 14/15 year olds he's talking about. There is no black and white answer. Some people mean well, but are bad at phrasing. Some people are too immature to be operating in the public sphere yet. It's a learning process for some people, and there are going to be mistakes made.
But when it comes to picking fights, there are people that go into it like it's a game. They are looking to piss the author off and start a shitstorm. Sometimes the author deserves it and sometimes they don't. If the author deserves it, then so be it. If you've given reasonable criticism and the author deletes the post or starts freaking out, then by all mean, go to it. But I object to people goading authors into flipping out and then hiding behind the idea that extremely harsh criticism is some kind of trial by fire that all authors need to be subjected to when really all the commenter wanted is to get a laugh with their buddies. It's often criticism that is much more for the entertainment of the people reading the comments than it is for the author.
When it comes to younger site members on either side, it's irritating, but it's a process of growing up. It is more understandable that a younger member would be immature and prone to that kind of behavior, but it's also important to take that person aside and tell them that this isn't acceptable. There are plenty of authors and commenters on each side that could stand to learn some restraint.
2351188 I would hope that you wouldn't get negative feedback from the first message. It was designed to be reasonable. Well, if we are talking about the Rainbow Dash one, that is.
It really depends on the author, but believe in starting conservatively and then working your way up. I assume that the author is sensitive, so I try and be nice about whatever I have to say. If they flip out on me, well, that's a different story, but I don't think it's such a bad thing to start out being nice.
2351199
Agreed. And yet Golden Vision portrays the 'receiver' of criticism (whether it be good or bad) as a small child crying behind his or her computer and not daring to talk to their parents because of something we might have done. In essence he's trying to play on feelings. Had his blog post been about a kid that yells at his screen and then go downstairs to demand that his overindulgent mother make his favorite food, people would be walking away with an entirely different point of view.
That's why I don't agree with his blog post; he's not merely informing, he's manipulating.
2351214 Well, he's saying they might be because it's a common line of thought that the authors of these stories are nineteen year olds with wish-fulfillment issues. He's trying to shake that image up. It's manipulative, but all stories are manipulative. He's not being scientific here. He's making a plea for a behavior change.
Context is important for me. If the person sounds like they are young/immature through their writing, I go with that assumption. If they are obviously older, then I can be a little more direct in my critique.
But I certainly don't think we all need to go around thinking each other person on this site is an eleven-year old with deep self-esteem issues. I'd just like people to start with 'polite' as a default and then adjust from there based on how the other person reacts. I don't think that's unreasonable.
As for the argument that he's making, there's no denying that he's using emotion to make his case. I just happen to agree with the overall that we could stand to be nicer around here.
2351233
I agree with that much at least.
Good afternoon all. I just wanted to say that I stand with you and Present Perfect in your statements.
I should tell you all up front that I am not a writer or editor. I love to read, though and I've read many fimfictions as well as many other works. I've only written reports and brief papers in high school and as a military professional. Those are my only credentials.
I do know however that kindness goes a long way when providing criticism to someone. One should start out with the basic facts and point out the good and bad. If the author responds negatively, he or she probably isn't really trying to learn. You can only try to teach or instruct if the other person is willing to accept the assistance. There is always a time and place for sharp critique but it is best used in small doses, IMHO.
I believe anyone critiquing a story should ask this question: If my criticism is all negative or downright mean or cruel, would you really expect anyone to learn from it? Most of us would not.
For what it is worth, most of you who write here are great. Keep up the good work, Bronies!!
Honestly, if you give the first kind of feedback and get the response from the example, it's better to just walk the fuck away and never interact with that person again.
Sometimes, though, people will surprise you.
I'm so glad to see that more people get this idea. I know I'm not always the nicest commenter around, but if I give a negative comment on a story I always try to give a solid reason as to why I feel that way. I try to make sure that what I say is constructive, even if it still is harsh criticism.
For example I may say...
Then I make the mistake of scrolling down to see what other people are saying, and I find unacceptable things like this.
That's crossing the line. That particular comment bothers me greatly due to the fact that a majority of the writers getting told this are people who are writing as a form of escapism, potentially from the thoughts of suicide. For someone who already has that on their mind, going online and opening up to the world with their stories in an attempt to feel some kind of acceptance and only being told to off themselves is soul crushing.
Think about what you say, people. The pen is mightier than the sword and can harm others with ridiculous ease.