HiE - Of power levels and ponies · 2:29am Jan 11th, 2014
So there's a lot of discussion back and forth about who's stronger, Ulquiorra or Celestia. But I think it's time for a slightly different discussion. Just how much stronger should Ulquiorra's released state be compared to his sealed state? Is there any information available to suggest how many times stronger an Arrancar becomes in their released state?
We know that Ulquiorra, as well as the three Espada above him, are capable of causing significant damage/destruction to Las Noches if they used their released states, but that doesn't tell us. For all we know this is due to Las Noches being enclosed with a dome, and that prevents the power increase from dissipating. For all we know the six lower ranking Espada could do the same if they all released together. None of this really tells us anything.
So back to the original question. How many times stronger does an Arrancar -and Espada, if the two are different categorizations- become once they utilize their release? And in Ulquiorra's case, how many times stronger should his second release be than his first release? As we saw in the show, in the course of his fight against Ichigo, he went from getting knocked off his feet by the Getsuga Tenshou, to being able to part it without even trying, to getting even stronger.
Now the next question of this blog relates to the ponies themselves. For all of the talk about how tall the ponies should be in comparison to us, there's no talk on just how heavy they should be. The only reason I'm asking is because I found out that shetland ponies can weigh up to six hundred pounds.
And once we establish an estimate of how much the ponies should weigh, should that weight vary by certain standards for the three species?
Hm well compared to the first release I think (personally) should be pretty standard in strength like other arrancar though the second should be much stronger by twofold at the very least.
Hes the only hollow who has a second release right? Perhaps he could take on even starrk I think his name was on an even fight.
As for how well it does against Celestia at full power I think I'll leave that to others speculations.
Now for the ponies weight I think they should significantly be reduced simply by evolution itself.
Take it from our evolution we weigh around from 100 to 160 (healthy ranges differ for individual)
While primates can weight several more hundred pounds depending on species.
I think they ponies would weigh at least 150 to 240 on healthy weight, again depending on height age ect ect
And not in the weight range of 300+ unless overweight :P
I think the weights of ponies should be about the same as humans, but a little less: ~80-90 for females, and ~120-140 for males, just going off the top of my head. Celestia and Luna should weight significantly more, but still probably a lot less than regular horses, since they're still much smaller and skinnier. I think Celestia should weigh about as much as those Shetland ponies you mentioned. I don't have much to go by for this, it just feels right. But I get the feeling that if you calculated the weight of current 3D models of ponies given they were made of flesh, they would weigh roughly the same, if not less than regular humans.
For Ulquiorra's first release, it's not really well defined, so you can take creative liberties. However, I would like it if his second release did a similar percentage improvement over his first release to the percentage improvement of his first release over his unreleased form. So improvement would be exponential as he releases more; if he had a 100% improvement over each release, his power levels could be traced by an x^2 curve.
His second release should have have a significant difference then his firsts, it can be said the he had become about three or more times stronger then he was before. Essentially he could be strong enough to possibly match Coyote Starrk, either way he would be stronger then the second and third espadas. Maybe somewhere to the level where lower ranking espadas and hollows die just from being near him.
As for the ponies weight, maybe less then a human. Just enough to be lifted without too much strain. Or somewhere ranging from 80 to 120, still generally lither then humans. Celestia and Luna are somewhere around the hight of shetland ponies however they are thinner then actual ponies so they could be somewhere around 160 or more.
Not gonna say too much about Ulu or r's (I really need to figure out how to turn off my auto correct) power level other than that in his sealed form he can take on a shikai, but would need to release to go against a bankai.
As for the ponies weight, I think genesis1212 hit the nail on the head with the higher evolution bit. Not to mention that they just LOOK thinner than real ponies.
Oh! I want somepony to call Ulquiorra: Uvula sifter, Ultra strifer, Ursa-core Striker, or other ridiculous names since his name is so unpronounceable!
Pony height and weight have always been up for debate, and it depends entirely on what size they are in the individual fics (Some people write them as being ride-able by human males, while others have them small enough to be picked up comfortably by a human). Most peope class them as a smaller breed of Shetland ponies, which is suitable with all the information people have extrapolated about their size using in-show objects. Those particular investigations usually end up with mares and most stallions (the common body type use in the animation) being about the size of a large, but not huge, dog.
Genesis1212's comment about evolution playing a part doesn't really make sense to me, considering that the Neanderthals weren't bigger than the modern human is, they were actually smaller on average but just blockier built. Even if the ponies DID have an evolutionary point equal to us and the great apes, their transition would obviously have been smaller in scale than ours. If there is one thing that evolution has to do with pony weight, then it's the difference between the three races. Earth ponies as a race have always been physical labor oriented, they have always been credited with bigger strenght and sturdier bodies, which obviously translates into a larger body mass and weight. I could go into a long rant about how much Applejack would have to weigh in order to actually buck apples out of trees, but I think you can imagine it for yourself (Hint: She weighs quite a bit more than a human). Pegasi on the other hand, even if they did have magic to help them fly, would likely need to have evolved hollow bones, much like birds, and therefore weigh the least of the three pony races on average. Unicorns are probably the only pony race we can compare to humans with any stretch of the imagination, having evolved primarily to be a mental focused and problem-solving race using the 'tools' at their disposal.
In the end it's up to you as a writer to decide how big the ponies are, you're the one imagining them into existence, so you're the one best suited to decide how big they are in your fic.
As for his Released states it's really up to you to decide exactly how powerful he becomes. I can try to put a few things in perspective, but in the end we're dealing with two fictional universes meeting, it is entirely impossible to compare the two exactly. In any case, if his first release puts him at about the same level as power as Celestia then that means that Celestia's upper limit is a tad stronger than Ichigo's masked Bankai upper limit. This observation is of course entirely reliant on whether or not Celestia actually went full out in their battle, which is somewhat doubtful considering that Celestia was never quoted to actually have any killing intent towards the Espada. If we consider the fact that the alicorn went into the battle with an acting mindset, then it is entirely possible that she wouldn't use any of her really strong magical attacks in case she could lethally wound Ulquiorra. This would make sense considering her general disposition towards killing, and she would likely even subconsciously hold back her power in fear of hurting him or creating an attack too powerful for him to deflect safely. One of the Espada's greatest strenghts, and one of his greatest weaknesses, is that his level of Reiatsu (or power) remains the same based on his form at the time. This isn't the case for Celestia, as has clearly been stated by Ulquiorra, and Celestia could basically be as powerful as you want her to be.
Using the concept of upper limit and the stable level of Reiatsu of Espada, you can view each Resurrection as one 'shift' in upper limit. A common theory is that an Arrancar's Resurrection occurs when they are incapable of getting any stronger in their first form, having effectively hit their stable upper limit. The Resurrection pushes past that upper limit, making the old upper limit the new lower limit, then they can grow their power even further. If we use this as the basis, that would mean that Ulquiorra is the only Arrancer to hit the upper limit of his Resurrection, demanding the need for a second released form in order to shift his limit again. Coyote Starrk would be the only one I'd consider outside this frame of power, as he has had to split his body in two in order to exist around other Hollows. This would also mean that Coyote's upper limit in his split state is equal to the upper limit of one single Arrancar in their normal form, which would also make his Resurrection something like an 1½ increase in upper limit, as his 'un-split' non-released form would be equal to an Arrancer's Resurrection in some way (Considering that an Arrancar's released form has beenq quoted as often having an adverse effect on his surroundings), and his own released form after becoming whole again would therefore likely have a higher upper limit than an ordinary Arrancer's Resurrection without being a true Second Resurrection.
Well, that was a bit of a rant. If you just want the short and dirty, you can consider an Arrancer's Resurrection as a shift in upper/stable limit of Reiatsu, achieving the next released stage when he reaches the upper limit of his current maximum form. Whatever these upper limits are is entirely ambigious, and the only frame of reference for power we have are the ones that Ulquiorra has fought against in the past.
Having said that, perhaps the density of a being's Reiatsu has a lot to say about what their upper level is. One of the things observed during Ulquiorra's Ressurections is that the density of his Reiatsu increases every step of the way, perhaps indicating that the Resurrection simply allows an Arrancar to 'hold' a denser form of Reiatsu in their bodies. If we use chemistry and fractional distillation as an example, you can imagine a cup (the Arrancar's body) holding different kinds of distilled oil, starting with gasoline and increasing in Carbon chains, with diesel being the density of Reiatsu allowed to an Arrancar after their Resurrection, and oil being the density of Ulquiorra's second Resurrection. This theory is further strenghtened by Ishida's comments regarding the Reiatsu of Segunda Etapa as being 'so thick and dense that it doesn't even feel like Reiatsu anymore, being almost like an ocean'.
Well, this went on longer than I had expected. I could talk about this stuff all day, but I doubt anyone has taken the time to read all of this anyway, so I'll just stop now before I fall into a rant again.
Hm...Well...
Something i need to say right off the bat is that Celestia in an all-out battle (one on one), could very well lose to Ulquiorra, i believe. Not because of power (even though that DOES play a roll), but because Ulquiorra has been fighting for practically his entire lifespan. He is fresh. While Celestia, no doubt. Has had little to no chance to likely hone her skills or strategy for a good amount of time so it would be logical to assume that she's rusty in some cases. Also that her strength could likely have diminished somewhat too. Both because she was forced to rule amongst other things...And take into account the stress that takes with it...Well, it doesn't really keep her in top shape, at all.
Why? Look at every single pony. They appear to have been in a state of peace for an extended period of time, which implies that Celestia has had no need to/couldn't practice fighting. At the very least, from when Twilight or Shining Armor was born.
Now, on to power for reals. I'd like to say that Ulquiorra has been shown to be EXTREMELY powerful, easily destroying Ichigo (while Ichigo wasn't in Hollow form) without much of a problem when he went 'Segunda Etapa' and even still kicking Ichigo's behind when in his first release, i believe? Not sure on that regard at all. Even holding out against him when he didn't release at all for a bit while inside that building with Inoue and seemingly unscathed. I'd like to keep in mind that the entire atmosphere, the entire area -shifted- when he went into one of his forms too (Either first release or Segunda Etapa), his reiatsu (i think) changing the look of the area and practically blackening the skies.
Celestia is a goddes, yes. But she herself required to use the Elements of harmony to combat Discord. So she is already weaker then him...And also Luna to imprison her, which shows that she's not as strong as one would actually assume. Up to you to how strong you make her, but i think it's best to keep that in mind too. If she's able to use elements of harmony, THEN i think she's quite capable of destroying Ulquiorra if need be with VERY little question at all, if the Elements of Harmony decide to be lethal, hell...Even if it won't be lethal that would still be the case i think. I'd like to think she'd have no chance against those like Starrk or Harribel. Due to who they were and all. (In the case of having no Elements at all)
There is also the question of one of his abilities that even HE could barely control, and it -was- powerful enough to atleast block one of Hollow Ichigo's sword swings. (The one which created that lance or something he could throw too) So that's something to think about.
If i am wrong on anything i said (when it comes to Ulquiorra's stuff), i apologize! Since i am simply going on what i remember from both the show and the manga.
Sadly, i can't really say anything on the topic of height or weight...Except that Unicorns are likely to be lighter then Earth Ponies at the very least, as they use their magic more often then not, while Earth ponies do a lot of muscle work and the like. Earth ponies likely being heavier then both Pegasi and Unicorns. That's all i can really say without deciding on things on the spot.
In the end though, everything is up to you when it comes to deciding how powerful both are and what they can handle or not, etc, etc. Sorry that i was unable to be of more help. >_<
Hope I'm not too late to comment. So, here we go!
As far as I know, there is no quantifiable indicator as to how much stronger Ulquiorra's Resurrecion makes him, nor his Segunda Etapa. While his second one is surely stronger than the first, we just can't quantify by how much. Both of Ulquiorra's released forms were curbstomping Ichigo into next week.
And just my 2 cents on Celestia, it depends on how she moves the Sun when you think about it. Since this your story, you can use your headcannon. Does a natural connection to the Sun allow her to move it? Does she use her own power to move the Sun? That's the thing you want to think about. If it's her own power that moves the Sun, Princess Celestia's power is high-end DBZ level, far above anything in Bleach. If not, then I suppose it's more up to imagination just what her power level is.
Celestia = the pony who got her plot kicked by both Chyrsalis and Nightmare moon.
And was to lazy to get rid of king sombra a seconed time is considered stronger than a espada like Ulquiorra.....
1710287 There is a way you could justify those. For Nightmare Moon, we already know Celestia was unwilling to fight her up front for emotional reasons. In the first episode, we never actually saw what happened either. And with Sombra, she sent Twilight and her friends to deal with him because she needed to test them one more time. That should have been obvious.
Her fight with Chrysalis might be a bit more complicated. It once again depends on the nature of Celestia's power. If she IS ultra mega powerful, one reason she lost to Chrysalis is that she held back too much and paid for it when she was struck at her weak point (the horn). She would have held back because of how many regular, innocent ponies were mere meters away from her and Chrysalis. If she used too much power, she could have killed every one of those attending the wedding as collateral damage. They'd be dead just by being there.
But I reiterate, that explanation depends on Celestia moving the Sun with her own magical strength, and not through some vague connection with it.
To casually move the Sun with your own magical strength would require incomprehensibly ludicrous amounts of power, far more than what even Yhwach or Aizen could posses, let alone Ulquiorra.
I also wonder who downvoted my previous comment. That usually happens when I talk about Godlestia, as similarly to your post, they'll point out that she lost to Chrysalis. But what they never do is look at the bigger picture, and never think of why that might be.
It is my significant headcanon that Equis' sun is not like the stars in our dimension, gigantic balls of fiery gas. Rather I believe it is a smaller version of a regular star, kind of like one of those SCPs (forgot the number, but it's basically a REALLY tiny star…). It's around the size OF Equis' moon, hence why it's MUCH easier to move than a normal star, combine that AND her cutie mark and the connection between them and whatnot… However, it's likely there's only a 30-40% reduction of mana used in the spell to move the sun, because of that… still, it means she has a LOT of mana to reserve… in any kind of theoretical battle between the two where it's gotten serious, Ulquiorra might be able to land a LOT of solid hits in, but in the end she has him matched for sheer QUANTITY of mana/reiatsu pools. When he's in base Resurrecion, anyways… In Segunda Etapa, she's boned beyond relief. I mean, seriously… in his base Resurrecion, he's already MUCH faster than her, he could've landed KILL SHOTS in that fight, c'mon, even Charlie HIMSELF put that down! And in Segunda Etapa, he's EVEN FASTER, STRONGER, AND has stronger techniques, to boot. His Cero Oscuras would fry her a nice, fresh, crispy-black coat… and a tombstone… Anyways, if Ulquiorra didn't have his Resurrecion powers available, he'd still be able to OUTLAST Celestia, anyways… his regeneration would take care of any injuries, and she could bleed out. Not to mention, he's also far more battle-hardy, whereas SHE would try to talk him out of fighting… She's a freaking idiot, frankly… Once his engine's started, it ain't gonna stop! Anyways, he has his Bala, a VERY fast technique which COULD throw her off-guarddue to its speed, and if he's given the chase, there's always the Gran Rey Cero… there'd be NO STOPPING that Wave Motion Gun. Yep, she'd be dead in a heartbeat...
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All interesting theories folks. But it really wasn't a question regarding a fight between Ulquiorra and Celestia, that's a discussion for another time and another blog. The main question was in case anyone had an idea as to how many times stronger Ulquiorra became in his released form.
Case in point. In his sealed state Ulquiorra was able to beat the shit out of a dragon that could've easily killed the mane six. A dragon that was only stunned by getting hit from Rainbow Dash's sonic rainboom. The only difficulty he really had was bringing it to a complete halt once it was in motion, and he still accomplished that. And so far in the story that's been his only significant combat challenge.
So you can understand that if Ulquiorra's first release makes him five times stronger than his base form, the threat bar is going to need to be raised considerably higher to warrant such a response again. Otherwise it'd just be him showing off for the sake of showing off, and making every single pegasus in the area feel inadequate.
1713177 In that case, simply do so. Raise the threat level.
Then again, that was assuming his released state is 5 times stronger.
In which case, I reiterate that there is no quantifiable way to determine how substantial the power increase is. For this story, that decision is entirely up to you.
1712487 if she really was holding back for her subjects then she would've had just blast her from behind when the idiot queen was running her mouth about her plans
Aka element of suprise...
Or better yet teleport the both you away from the castle then fight it out there..
And before she was going to teleport herself with chrysalis she could've told twilight to get the elements of harmony as a back up plan
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As soon as I can think of something that's at least five times worse than an angry adult dragon. Because I seriously doubt five very pissed off dragons are going to cut it, because he'd just kick the shit out of them, or worse, make them kick the shit out of each other, by appearing in front of one after antagonizing another to strike. It'd be a cross between a midair dog fight and the three stooges.
And now that I mention that, I can't stop thinking about it.
Or just pull a ichigo move on Chrysalis
Aka The begining of the Aizen fight when ichigo grabbed aizen by his face then took him away from his friends
Btw moving the sun is her special talent even in cannon that 20 unicorns can easily move the Sun and the moon without luna and celestia
1713177 I know… and the problem is, I can't quite put any sort of NUMBER on his reiatsu levels compared to hers, because reiatsu can't be scanned by mortal technology, for obvious reasons. It can't be measured by how much space it takes up, since it can be compressed at will. While it's like ki in Dragon Ball Z in overall fundamentals, it's still too different in general formation to safely use the 'power level' system on it… but I would have to say his levels exceed hers absolutely in his first Resurrecion, maybe even in base form, if he actually tried (which he hasn't but it WOULD be a unique plot twist…). However, if Celestia had Luna at her side, their combined reiatsu levels would likely come close to Ulquiorra's Resurrecion level. Key word is close. By their standards, he's a friggin Eldritch Abomination.
Now, let's do some simple math, honesty… let's look at his final battle against Ichigo… Ichigo was in Bankai, with his Hollow mask on. Ulquiorra stood evenly against him, and showed minimal issues, though mainly due to his lack of emotion and/or stress. When he released, he HANDED ICHIGO HIS OWN ASS ON A SILVER PLATTER. From the looks of things, he barely even had to try, which means he became roughly seven to ten times stronger than he was before… and in Segunda Etapa… well, we really didn't see much of his fighting capability in any kind of controlled scenario, considering he got his ass handed BACK TO HIM by Hollow Zangetsu (sorry if I spoiled) after he jumped into the control booth for Ichigo… but I would have to say that Segunda Etapa's power multiplied by nearly four, just because Four Is Death. Other than that, there is no REAL scale for poor Ulqy… we'd have to see him be revived, exactly as he was, int he story, and put in a canon battle scenario, to see him be put to the test in Segunda Etapa… I can't give you anything else, honestly.
About pony weight… I'd have to put them at a healthy 70-140 at most… considering how they're easily thrown about without any real resistance. I dunno, really...
1713566 As fun as all of that would be, sadly, it wasn't a feature length movie, and there were many other scenes and whatnot the two-parter had to get through. It's not like the episode would have had time for a lengthy battle. Oh, and you can chalk it up to Plot Induced Stupidity or Character Induced Stupidity.
Take your pick.