“Oh, spare me. Us. Yourself. Whoever.”
In a set of dimensions whose relationship to the rest of time and space was tumultuous at best, a draconequus regarded the eleven cards in his grasp, and peered over their top to study his opponent.
The smooze’s own cards floated around its interior, affording Discord only brief glimpses past the opaque green. The smooze itself sported a blithe smile and bubbled to itself.
Discord had learned to hate that poker face.
“I’ll raise you ....” Discord’s gaze flitted around the interior of his dwelling and the bric-a-brac therein, “...an Antlertian fertility statue, the Crown Jewels of Bovaland - which we may have to give back, Celestia’s been getting shirty about that - and the shirt off my other back. Deal?”
The smooze vaguely burbled. It might have been affirmation. It might have been a sign of trepidation. It might have been just a vague burble.
Discord smirked and laid his hand out on the table with a flourish. “Voila! Eleven kings! Now I’ll admit I may not be as clear as crystal water on the exact rules of this -”
The smooze spat out a royal flush.
Discord stared, and slouched down into a sulk. One claw snapped, and the table abruptly creaked under the weight of the crown jewels, fertility statue, and his spare shirt. The smooze’s smile widened, and it oozed forward and up onto the table to appreciate its winnings.
“This time,” muttered Discord, as he drew the cards back and began reshuffling them, splicing in little additions of his own. Several more queens. An alchemical explosive primed to trigger in the presence of flushes. A very small and exceedingly confused jaguar. “This time, we shan’t just rig it from top-to-bottom, no, no, no. I’m rigging this side-to-side and inside-out if that’s what it takes -”
One of Discord’s horns began to tremble, and he paused mid-shuffle. He frowned, and his eyes flew out of their sockets to regard the horn. It pulsed with an internal rainbow light, trembling ever-more violently.
One of his eyes flew abruptly into it, knocking it into stillness. The rainbow glow persisted, and Discord’s eyes drifted back into their sockets with some trepidation.
“Do you ever get that same impression?” he said to the smooze, which had made headway on engulfing the fertility statue, starting with the least fortunate appendage. “That there’s something delightfully chaotic happening elsewhere, something that’s making the sense in the universe gnash its teeth with aggravation, and which really, really deserves some immediate attention and possible admiration? And all the fun ‘a’ words?”
The smooze’s mouth was a bit too full to form any sort of meaningful response, but the bubbles inside it broiled energetically.
“Thank goodness. I thought I might be the only one.” Discord shrugged and shuffled in another jaguar. “I’m sure it’ll last for another hand, though. We’ve got time. I think.”
The clock on one wall had frozen mid-chime. Twilight’s heartbeat was the only metronome going. She stared fixedly into her own eyes, which blinked as slowly and languidly and cruelly as a serpent’s. The splashes of green marring the violet coiled slowly inwards, and - even with all the other horrible things pressing for her attention - somehow the colour sent a thread of dread slithering through Twilight. Memories of dark magic came back to her.
A red glow from beneath caught her eye, and she looked down. The Alicorn Amulet hung around her older self’s neck, suspended by a thin silver chain, glowing as if an ember was held at its heart.
Some part of Twilight’s hindbrain suggested it would be a great time to start screaming and running in little circles. Another part suggested commencing to kick everything resembling a threat until all possible dangers had been reduced to a fine paste. Whatever part of her conscious self was still in the game advised both parts of the hindbrain to shut up and ordered her body to take a calming breath.
“You know, I’d been expecting a question or two by now,” purred her older self. “Cat got my tongue? Spare me from having to spell it out.”
“No. Yes. Hold on. Be quiet. Let me … let me think.” Twilight closed her eyes. “Let me think about this.”
Her older self folded one foreleg over the other and smirked. “I do appreciate a pony that thinks. Go on, then.”
Think. Think. Twilight’s hoof tapped out a beat against the wooden floor.
“Three main possibilities present themselves,” she began to say, her tone occupying the giddily calm space before frothing hysteria. “First of these is that I’m hallucinating all of this, and shall have to arrange an appointment with a professional while I possess the faculties to do so. But … since this isn’t that unusual compared to other things that have happened in the past year alone, I don’t think that’s likely. Unless I hallucinated all of those as well.”
“Dismiss the prospect,” said the older Twilight coolly. “Ponies who want to get anywhere in life shouldn’t leave things open to doubt. Least of all themselves.”
“Secondly, this is all some sort of fantastically elaborate prank in which Rainbow and Pinkie have somehow impersonated several different ponies claiming to be Time Police, have somehow cast mind-wiping spells between earlier attempts, and have somehow gone on to create the impression that time has frozen in cahoots with the others and the … weather and general environment, apparently, before producing some spectacular ventriloquism, rushing upstairs without my noticing, and pretending to be me. I … ah, Rainbow, Pinkie, if there was ever a time you wanted to pull off the costume’s head and shout ‘Boo!’, then ...”
“Complexity penalty,” said herself, sounding bored.
“Yes, I know, I’ve taken that into consideration. I’m not saying it’s the most likely of the three options. But considering the prank they pulled last Hearts and Hooves day, it’s not that unreasonable.”
“You know, we never do find out how exactly they got both Luna and Prince Blueblood’s signatures and personal seals,” said the older Twilight thoughtfully. “Or the flock of trained doves.”
“We don’t? Bummer. But, ah, that leads me onto the third prospect.” Twilight swallowed. “That you’re really me. From the future. Which I know is a thing that can happen ...”
You don't deserve this yet. But you will. Oh, you will.
“... and you’re absolutely, categorically, bad news in every conceivable way! Why are you wearing that amulet? Why do you have dark magic coming out your eyes? What do you do?”
Her older self paused for a moment. “Well, some of your assessment there is correct. I am indeed you from the future. The rest of your interpretation stinks, if you’ll pardon the colloquialism. I happen to be rather fond of what I achieve in the future. You’ll be as well.”
“Fond? Fond? How on earth do I end up being fond of ...” Twilight’s brain shifted gear as it mustered several memories. Horrible, recently-acquired memories. “... Turning Capra to glass, destroying the Crystal Empire, harvesting souls en-mass, feeding prisoners of war to timber wolves, and becoming an all-round horrible tyrant? Amongst other highlights?”
“Oh, these were hardly highlights,” said her older self, waving a hoof dismissively. “I did a lot many other things than those. Those are just the ones ponies whined about the most.” She paused. “Or will whine, rather. It’s in my past, but your future, and we need a quick way to express that. We should improve Equish grammar while we have the chance. I’ll make a note for the next time I’m in power.”
“We … what? No! That isn’t the point! We’re not talking about grammar.”
“Well, I’m talking about grammar. You’re being disappointingly unreasonable and getting hung up on us neutralising some perfectly valid enemy and insurrectionary targets, and enacting some perfectly efficient wartime measures. I ran the numbers. The soul-harvesting allowed me to acquire - well, that doesn’t matter. And it wasn’t as if I was feeding the prisoners to the timber wolves for fun. Well, not entirely for fun.”
Her older self seemed to interpret the deafening silence as an invitation and pressed on, her eyes brightening. “You see, we’ll find out that if we blast enough magic into a timber wolf’s chromosomes and turn them inside-out, we can refashion them into -”
“Why are you here?” shrieked Twilight. “Why do you exist?”
“I’m here because you’re being very disruptive,” said the older Twilight, now looking annoyed. “Your behaviour - not what merely happens to you and which my Time Police can clean up, but you yourself - threatens to throw the Flow of time into disarray and Fray our future out of existence.”
“The future you’re from? That you’re responsible for?” Twilight looked herself up and down. “Why shouldn’t I destroy that?”
“Because you’ll destroy every great thing you’ll ever achieve, as well as me, you naive, blinkered little ...” Her older self stopped and took a calming breath. “Perhaps I’m being unreasonable. We’ve not been through the Great War yet. You’ve not seen what it really means to be on a losing side. You’ve not had to step up and take responsibility. Not yet.”
“The Great War?”
“Ah. An epic pony war from the future. A war between Equestria and our allies, and some ragtag alliance of our enemies. A war we’ll have no business losing.” Sparks all but flew from the older Twilight’s teeth as she bit down on the last word. “Eventually … eventually, at the cusp of it all, we’ll step up. We’ll take responsibility and turn the tide.”
She supported the Alicorn Amulet in one forehoof and looked down towards it, her gaze somewhere remote. It glistened and pulsed with a sickly red light. “Responsibility, as it happens, is a marvellous habit to keep up.”
“I’m smarter than this,” said Twilight in a small voice. “You saw what that thing did to Trixie. How could you think picking it up would be anything like a good idea?”
“Oh, please. Generalise from Trixie? Why not generalise about calculus from a worm’s ability to solve problems while you’re at it? We are an alicorn. What other being could the amulet have been made for? My power is unrivalled, and the dead weight it removed from my decision-making process made everything so much … clearer. Qualms, it turned out, were a dreadful fetter.” Her older self paused, and her expression misted over. “And besides that … things were desperate. I can’t overstate that. Somepony had to find an edge.”
Twilight swallowed and thought. The implications had come to her almost immediately; phrasing them in a way that would convince was more of a problem. “Then tell me about the war,” she said. “Don’t you see? If you tell me about it all now, I can go to Celestia and the other princesses, and … and we can fix it all, don’t you see? We can arrange things so that the war never happens, or becomes a lot less desperate. I’ll never have to pick up the amulet, and the future will be fixed.”
Her older self studied her, the violet-and-green eyes as cold as the depths of Tartarus. Twilight pressed on. “Don’t you see? That’s the solution. If I can change the future right now, things won’t have to get so grim. Rainbow Dash just said that the future isn’t written. This proves that. If we -”
“You’ve not been listening,” said the older Twilight, her voice a cold thread of steel. “Why should I undo the war? The war made me. Me, and all that I made in turn. And despite the savage ingratitude I’ve been met with at every turn, I’ve made everything so much better. So much more efficient.”
Twilight’s next line froze in her throat as her older self thoughtfully continued. “I shan’t lie; the prospect of going back and setting things in motion earlier has occurred. To keep the amulet rather than give it to Zecora for safekeeping. But … the changes that would produce would likely be great enough to Fray myself away. And all things considered, I suppose I’m quite willing to live with some inefficiency so long as I actually live.”
Her eyes narrowed, and she glared down at Twilight. “The future is written. Written by me. And I’ll be damned to Tartarus before I let anypony else interfere. Least of all myself.”
“There’s got to be a better path. Anything other than becoming a tyrant,” whispered Twilight.
“Oh, spare me. Us. Yourself. Whoever,” said her older self, disgust and disappointment clear on her expression. “You sound just like all the ponies bleating after I returned in glory and subjugated the other princesses into thralldom. I didn’t tyrannise Equestria, I optimised it. And if you want to make an omelette, sometime you’ve got to break a few eggs and ruthlessly terrorise the yolks into submission. Honestly, if the common rabble hadn’t had the gall to get all insurrectiony on me and become completely unmanageable, I’d be sitting pretty on a very well-run -”
Twilight gathered breath.
Gathered focus.
There seemed to be only one way this could end, and if she could steal that extra mile on herself, subdue her and find a way to stop the time-freeze, get Spike to alert Princess Celestia … then this might all end neatly and quickly after all.
Violet light slashed out from her horn, shearing through the silver links holding the Alicorn Amulet before her older self could so much as blink. It bounced off the floor with a metallic clink and fell still.
Twilight looked up, a warm wave of triumph flaring through her, to meet the cold gaze of her older self. Who didn’t look in the slightest bit amused. Or horrified by a sudden attack of conscience. Or in any way less evil.
“Ah...” started Twilight, and got no further. Violet and green erupted before her, filled her vision, knocked away her senses, and the next impressions to vaguely hit her were flying wall crash flying cold air flying flying ground.
For a long moment, she sprawled and wheezed, trying to pick herself up from a cold surface that slowly identified itself as the snow-covered ground outside. Her blurry vision resolved itself, and vague points of light resolved themselves into snowflakes hanging still under the night sky. Light spilled out over them from her library’s windows and from one Twilight-shaped hole in its side. Fragments of wood hung suspended in the air around it, and green-and-violet flames wreathed around them. In that gap, her older self stood, cold and poised and imperious.
“Credit where it’s due, you tried to attack what you saw as a source of power than engage me directly,” said her older self. Magic glimmered up her horn, and the amulet rose up to secure itself around her neck once more. “But the amulet ceased being my touchstone a long time ago. Dark magic is a wonderful thing to make a study of. It imparts its own powers. Lifts additional fetters.”
Twilight coughed and, by painful increments, rose to her hooves once again. She glared up at her older self and spread her wings.
“Now, regrettably, you’re obviously still a bit too stupid to accept my own superiority and correctness,” said the older Twilight. She sighed. “And admittedly, I may have miscalculated by thinking you could be argued into reasonableness. The only real question here is whether you want to submit now. It wouldn’t be too painful. Or you could try to overcome me. Emphasis on try.”
Twilight took off the ground with one mighty beat of her wings, closing her eyes briefly as she did so and summoning forth a gleaming shield to guard her advance. She thought as fast as equinely possible. Protect herself, gain altitude, hammer her older self with every rote blast she knew. It was a plan of sorts.
The instant after she threw her shield up, green and violet light forked out through the air once again. It violently tore through her shield like tissue paper, and Twilight desperately swerved to avoid it as it ripped past mere inches from her head. She flapped on through the air. Her gaze flitted from side to side, desperately blinking away the fierce aftereffect as she sought for her older self. The second later, something smashed into her mid-air with a locomotive’s force, and her world turned to spinning chaos as she was slammed back into the ground.
She blinked away the constellation of light that wheeled across her vision, whimpered as her abused nerve endings registered their disapproval, and found herself staring point-blank into the fierce gaze of her older self, towering above her and pinning her to the ground.
“Yield,” growled her older self.
“N - not fair,” stammered Twilight woozily (stars above, it hurt to speak) as she caught sight of a possible distraction at her older self’s back. Time, time, even a few seconds would do. “Al - already participated in three pitched fights today. Not at my best.”
“My heart bleeds. Yield!”
Time enough. Twilight’s horn blazed with a last, desperate, painful burst of magic, and she tore down her salvation. Her older self turned around, just in time to meet the library’s descending bee hive face-first. Wasting no time, Twilight rolled right around onto her belly and scrabbled at the ground in a crawl. Gain space, breath, take flight again -
A hoof crashed down onto the small of Twilight’s back and pinned her where she lay, forcing all the air remaining in her lungs free with one shocked wheeze. Something bounced on the ground next to her head, and she turned to see the bee hive rolling past. Inside a broken-open gap, she saw the insects, completely still mid-motion.
“A tip between selves,” growled her older self. “That works better when time isn’t stopped.” Twilight tried to respond, to gather magic once more, and was interrupted by a hoof smacking into the back of her horn, disrupting the flow of energy. “I see I’m just going to have to brute-force this problem towards a solution. Why must the world always insist on being difficult?”
“K - kill me and the Time Police will come for you as well!” managed Twilight. “They … they can somehow detect when things change in the past, they’ll -”
“Hah! I’m hardly going to kill myself, you idiot. I have something different and rather ingenious in mind. And the Time Police are hardly going to help you. Were you not listening earlier? Who do you think commands them?”
“Y - what?”
“When the ponies of Equestria became completely insubordinate and unmanageable, I slipped away from public life. Left them to stew in their own mess … though, alas, they ended up breaking into the Royal Palace and spreading the texts on chronomancy far and wide. They commendably formed the Time Police themselves in short order. But I thought giving a little direction to them under an alias would be as decent a way to while away the years until my return. Frankly, they need all the help they can get. And I’m hardly going to leave my past at somepony else’s mercy.”
Twilight seethed even as panic welled up inside her. “So what now? Are you just going to memory-wipe me?”
“No. Though I shall have to repair the library. And the hive for that matter. You’ve foiled my Police on the memory-wiping measure and I have enough respect for myself, even at this stage, to imagine we’ll wriggle free of it once again in some manner. No, I’ve devised something better. Something that should eventually keep you pliant at the subconscious level before memory-wiping’s conducted. And if it’s the correct thing to do, I imagine I’ll get back to the future and find nary a hint of Fray. Everything will be solved.”
“You - no!” Twilight struggled, and received another kick to the horn for her trouble. “Ow! Stop that! If you change my behaviour or twist my mind … then, then you’re just twisting yourself back then, don’t you see? How’s that not a paradox?”
“Twilight, Twilight, Twilight,” purred her older self, leaning down close to her ear. Twilight all but felt the buzz of magic around her older self’s horn crisp her mane. “Time, regrettably for you, can be so very pliant about these things. And even if the Fray levels indicate a developing paradox … I’ll have all the time in the world to come up with something cleverer. Now obey me!”
Twilight opened her mouth to protest. There had to be more sense to it all than that, there had to be. But the horn pressed into the back of her head, and her world turned white.
The white faded. Twilight coughed as her senses dragged themselves back into focus.
“Wha … what the he … uh,” she started, and then stopped.
She wasn’t in the library, or even the outdoors for that matter. The room she found herself in was dingy and ovoidal, lit only by two great murky and circular panes at one side. A chair rested in the middle of the room, next to an unlit projector screen.
“What?” she managed.
As if from a great distance, she heard Spike’s voice, coming from somewhere outside the room. “- that. Bah. One of these days, I’ll just rush off and do my own exciting stuff. With blackjack! And hookahs! Though I don’t actually smoke, so I might not bother with the latter. Why’s everypony so keen on adding some dumb waterpipes to anything, anyway?”
Spike?, Twilight blearily thought, and looked around for a door. Finding none, she rushed over to one of the windows. Past something that looked like a great lavender muzzle, she saw her dragon assistant, pen and paper in his claws.
Her own voice then suddenly boomed across her bewildered line of thought, similarly coming from a great distance and somehow jerking in time with the movements of the muzzle and the disorientating shifting of the window’s field of vision. “That’s a ‘why’ to be answered when you’re older, Spike. Actually, I’ve had second thoughts about the letter.”
If she didn’t know better, the exterior past the window looked uncannily like the library. And the ponies outside looked uncannily like -
“No, seriously, what?” shrieked Twilight. She slammed one hoof against the window, the surface of which turned out to be harder than crystal. She tried to draw upon magic, and found it simply non-existent, unresponsive to her efforts.
There was a sudden click behind her, and she turned to see the projector come alive. A voice - her own voice! - piped into the dingy room, seemingly coming from all sides. “Good day! Welcome to your personalised Voice of Reason Charm, version six-point-naught! If you’re hearing this, then you must be -” the tone shifted, “Twilight Sparkle. And I’m trying to convince you to -” the tone shifted again, “pursue your glorious future without fruitless disruption. Once deemed suitably reasoned down to the subconscious level, you shall be memory-wiped and given command of your own physical faculties once more. Do you understand the purpose and desired outcome as stated?”
Twilight couldn’t muster a ‘What?’ There had been enough what-ing for one day. For one lifetime. She slumped slowly to her haunches. “It was a nice day, at the start,” she whispered. “It was such a nice day.”
“Reason one for pursuing your glorious future!” her own voice announced, as the world outside the windows - her own eyes - shifted once more. “We shall admirably solve all possible food shortages to ever afflict Equestria and the world. Enacting the Soylent project means that we will simply feed half of the hungry to the other hungry. Reason two -”
“Alright, that’s it,” said Discord, as his horn fluttered in little circles around his eye, flashing crimson and hallooing enthusiastically. “Something’s definitely happening that warrants my attention. Don’t you think so, smooze?”
The smooze flolloped over a pile of its winnings, absently digesting a monde. It bubbled at Discord.
“Quite right. And what about you … Parcel Post, wasn’t it?”
“I have a shift to return to, Mr Discord!” wailed the postpony, tucked under Discord’s arm. He paused to consider. “And also a family!”
“Pfft. Details. But I suppose I should see what’s going on.” Discord rose from his armchair and casually tossed Parcel Post at the smooze. The postpony gloopily settled inside it and struggled forlornly. The smooze’s head nuzzled his cheek and sported a smile. “Hold the fort, you pair. Try not to break anything. Or fix anything. And if the Outsiders try to get in again, just bang some pots and pans until they’re scared off.”
Disocrd strode over to where his coat and hat hung on one wall, and smoothly drew out a stand from a pocket. Sweeping the stand over his shoulders, he pushed open the door and stared out into the maw of madness. The smooze gurgled quizzically after him.
“Probably not too long,” Discord replied as he stepped out. “I’ll see it all sorted in good time.”
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Oh. Oh. Oh.
...Twilight is in so much trouble. For the first time, the idea of Twilight solving the problem by simply deciding not to become a tyrant doesn't look like it can work.
Wow... Future Two all but lobotomized herself. Wouldn't that cause one hell of a paradox? Especially if the control lasts for such a prolonged time as it would be forced too...
6038737
No small amount of trouble indeed. It's always distressing when a problem arises which that particular solution doesn't solve.
6038752
Depends on the length of the control. In an ideal world, Tyrant Sparkle would maintain it only until Twilight starts to comply and secures the timeline, with or without her intervention. We'll see whether that ideal world materialises.
6038752
I'm about half expecting to discover that the future Twilight we've just seen has a voice inside her head screaming No! Fight it, Past Me! Fight it! It does horrible things to our friends! Fight it, Past Me!
The other half is mostly expecting Twilight's friends to notice over the next while that she's suddenly become uncaring and cruel and power-hungry (because that's how Future Twilight thinks Present Twilight would have acted).
6038808
Should she regain both her memory and her ability to act, there are a number of strategies that she can employ; starting with throwing the Alicorn Amulet into the sea as she suggested already, right up to attempting suicide (if Younger Twilight dies, Older Twilight can't exist).
6038839
Various strategies indeed, some more in keeping with the tone than others. Two Twilight Sparkles facing off across space and time is glorious fodder, strategy-wise.
Comedy...... :)
Um? Hello? Dark tag? Because what. The. Fuck.
6038839
Which begets even more paradoxes, e.g., if present!Twilight kills herself to prevent Tyrant future!Twilight from existing, then she also undoes everything occurring after the first time incursion—which means she has no reason to kill herself. It's a variation of the Grandfather Paradox. For the same reason, the future!Assassins can't—not won't, can't—succeed in killing past!Twilight, either, as killing her would negate their reason for doing so in the first place.
This assumes, of course, that there's only a single timeline. If there are multiple timelines in play—something that the appearance of any kind of "Time Police" implies is the case—either branching or parallel, then all bets are off.
"Temporal Cold War," anyone?
Oh. ... So she didn't have a crisis of conscience after wrecking the world and decided to carrying out this whole time police thing to help atone for her misdeeds. She's STILL evil.
... Shoulda hit her with the reform spell when she was monologuing.
6038990
The entire - clearly stated - purpose of the Time Police is to prevent the creation of a new timeline - even if that means Tyrant Twilight has to exist.
Because a new timeline means their timeline won't exist anymore, which means they won't exist anymore.
...the structure of time in this story clearly implies that, if Present Twilight kills herself to prevent Future Twilight from existing, then Present Twilight will stay dead, and Future Twilight might get a few minutes to scream incoherently before vanishing.
However, the structure of the story also makes it clear that if Present Twilight were to try that, then both the Time Police and Future Twilight will get the chance to travel back to just before she tries it. and stop her. (I can just imagine the Time Police bitterly complaining that they've stopped everypony else from killing Twilight, and now they've got to stop her doing it to herself?)
Oh, Twilight. One of the things you should have learned from fiction is to pretend to go with the bad guy's plan, so you can subvert it later.
*sigh*
I can't fault you though.
6038808
why would Twilight ever comply?
got to say, I've very rarely rarely had my interest in a story killed faster than with this chapter.
Oh well, I think the story needed to end here anyway for me to enjoy it
THIS IS NOT COMEDY.
THIS IS DARK.
6039087 oh, good point. I hadn't even noticed the tags
I've already said I'm not a fan of this.
I don't think this story really works here. If Tyrant Twilight is puppeteering Twilight then she's trapped herself in a timeloop
If she left some sort of program, then can she guarantee that it has enough will or intelligence to lead to her if Twi never breaks.
In fact at this point I'd say it's more likely that Tyrant Twilight is some sort of supposedly time preserveing mental program that's trapped the real thing than Twi being corrupted
Yeeeeah, you're definitely going to want to update the story tags. This isn't funny. This isn't all that adventurous. This is as dark as a tar pit in a sealed room at midnight. If you plan on rectifying that in the next chapter, great! But until then, this is what the story ends on. Until that next update, you're ending on one heck of a tonally dissonant impression.
Still, I have to think that the divergence between present and future Twilight is going to leave some cracks in the control spell. Even without memories of the Time Police, her friends may be able to notice and exploit them. Plus, if Twilight can stop panicking and start analyzing, she may be able to find a solution... though I don't have much confidence there. And if all else fails, further bumbling responses by the Time Police could set all of this into motion again.
This kind of story throws logic, causality, and all the other tenants of good storytelling out the window just by the very premise. The only thing keeping it going is a solid and enjoyable presence scene to scene. Not only did you write a chapter that wasn't enjoyable to read, you wrote one that brought the failure of causality into center stage and threw as much of that hip and trendy darker and grittier excrement as you could on top of it.
I'm honestly impressed at how thoroughly you shot yourself in your own foot. You've earned your downvote in a way few have managed.
A response to some of the general sentiments across the comments. Because damn, that's a lot of clearly expressed sentiments.
Re. the Dark tag, I can see where people are coming from on this. I'd previously thought that the darker events here were reasonably part of the dramatic peril and antagonistic forces implied by the Adventure tag, and for the story so far - featuring references to future-tyranny, ponies getting disintegrated by the bucket-load - that seems to have been fine. I didn't think this chapter would be that much of a breach in tone. Evil future Twilight's been foreshadowed all the way thus far, with the foreshadowing itself not necessarily playing her for comedy. Hence, it all seemed fine and compatible at the time.
All that said, I'll now freely admit I'm the worst judger of tags there's ever been on FimFiction, and there's comments on other stories that I'd thought were a relatively light romp suggesting that a Dark tag be included. When in doubt, rely on feedback to correct for your own incompetence. So the Dark tag's been added, which this chapter in the eyes of most of you thoroughly deserves.
However, if it's that much of a jarring and tonally-dissonant chapter, then I'm more than open to being persuaded to go back, revise it, or even junk it and start over afresh. I'd have to take some time out to reconsider the story's direction and events in the case of the latter - this does set up more than a few things necessary for later chapters to cohere - but I'd happily do it if the current story strikes such a wrong chord. Let me know what you think - please.
6038969
In my defence, there were some flailing hysterics? And snark? And ... um ...
Maybe not my most comedic chapter ever, in retrospect.
6038978
That seems to have been the broad consensus. I am the worst tag-judger.
6038990
Killing Twilight would indeed do bad things to the future. Regrettably, the intricacies and implications of the one timeline are lost on quite a few.
6039012
Alas, this story's main action (or part of it) is set during the events of season four. The reform cannon of friendship is otherwise pre-occupied. Though that'd be a solution, no question.
6039016
The Time Police probably have a few somewhat overworked and very harassed counsellors on staff for suchlike anomalies. Who'd at least build up a lot of (one-sided) patient familiarity.
6039038
Poor, un-Genre-Savvy Purplesmart. She's new to all this trans-temporal scheming.
6039084
Sorry it's not working for you. This does seem to have been a pretty deal-breaking chapter for lots, though. I may come back to that, and it may end up being revised to your tastes.
6039087
So I've been told. As I say, worst at tag-judging. Absolute worst.
6039207
I may as well note here that this isn't necessarily Future!Twilight calling the case closed. A prisoner in Present!Twilight's condition is open for all manner of revisitation, brainwashing, and selective memory-wiping.
6039285
How tonally dissonant are we talking here? On a one to ten scale, are we at a one or 'Jesus Christ, Carabas, what's all this puppy-murder doing in my slice-of-life?'
Because if it's bad enough - and the reactions here seem to indicate so - I'm open to junking this chapter and starting again from scratch.
6039335
For what it's worth, this wasn't casually thrown-on dark and gritty excreta - this chapter was planned from the outset, and I'd argue it was all foreshadowed. But if it's been implemented this clunkily and has ruined the story's mood completely, then like I said to FanOfMostEverything, I'm inclined to revise the ever-loving bejesus out of it or just start from scratch. Would that be sensible?
6039420
Don't get me wrong, this does a great job of establishing Future Twilight's character. It just that someone being aware of behavioral alterations makes those alterations so much worse, especially when you end the chapter on the voice of resistance growing ever fainter. It's a stark contrast from the Keystone Chrono-Cops antics... though looking back, you did indicate excrement was inbound to the rotary cooling device last chapter, and the whole story's been about assassination attempts. I think the sharpest disruption is coming into this chapter without that lead-up.
I think leaving it as is is fine, but you definitely earned the Dark tag with this chapter. (Honestly, given all the talk of genocide and war, you may have qualified for it earlier.) Still, Dark and Comedy are not mutually exclusive, neither in the site's tagging system nor in storytelling.
6039420 If Tyrant Twilight was going to do mental operations why not do them while she had stopped all time? That seems by far the most efficient thing.
Put me it the camp of this chapter needs to be scrapped.
While you certainly attempted to foreshadow Tyrant Twilight she was both absent from the story and her motivations unexplained until an info dump now. That makes it very easy to dismiss her. Especially since she's totally OOC for Twilight.
Also against the successful foreshadowing is the fact that to me the Time Police seemed like definite bungling bureaucrat types(actually that's being nice, FanOfMostEverything's Keystone Chrono-Cops is much better). The sort of people who are supposed to try to do the right thing, but get in the way of the real heroes. Also making it easy to dismiss them.
Then there's the fact Twilight is a Princess who's at least a little uncomfortable with her power.
And there's numerous stories out there where problems with a timeline are dealt with by the fact that what history records and what actually happened can be very different things.
So, it's probably my fault for anticipating(but it's what I do when I read), but the structure of this story had me waiting for a result where Twilight and co have to figure out how to fool history, to get the Time Police's timeline without an actual Tyrant Twilight
edit: regarding Aurora Dimmet's comment of a reform spell. When Discord was released Twilight at one point going through books looking for something called a reform spell. It was enough of a threat that Discord had ripped them out of the books and was seen eating them like a bowl of cereal
6039420
Chapter seemed fine to me. Certainly dark, though, and not very comedic. Keep in mind people get really frustrated when the hero is made helpless like that.
6039420
I liked the chapter, don't junk it.
It was just that the chapter (murder, mind control and general "evil") was a bit unexpected (and a bit much with the old tags). I'm enjoying the story (and the other ones in the same universe) so thank you for writing and sharing.
6039420
Looking over your other stories, I believe that. And that is also why your works are not worth reading.
6039689
man, a comment like that isn't going to get your opinion taken seriously.
6039767 It is brutally honest beyond my usual norm, but well deserved. After the shift from lighthearted bumbling time cops from dystopia to mind rape, I took a tour of the author's other works. It's important to understand if a shift is intentional or not, what the author's patterns are, if there's any point to holding on to any hope for a recovery. What I found was that this author and hope are not on speaking terms.
About half his works are tagged with Comedy, which has lost all credibility. Another half (with a nontrivial intersection) are tagged Dark. Common themes across all works are political posturing, war, aftermath of an apocalyptic event, rampant destruction, do I really need to go on?
Simple pattern analysis, outright confirmed by the author, states that anything found here will consist of the "darker and grittier" themes that have been in vogue for far too long, particularly among amateur writers, to such an extent that drowns out whatever positive qualities such a story may have. Now if you like that kind of thing, you have my sympathies. I stand by my analysis.
6039845 Second Sun is an excellent story and the Sun is One of Those Vital Things is good.
Unfortunately he really seems to love his Capricious Crown character, and at times believes that Comedy is merely "some funny things happen in this story" rather than a tone.
6039767
He's a stuck-up twat of a troll who tries to justify it with self-important verbiage loosely designed to make someone who doesn't think terribly hard about what he's saying see him as less toxic than he actually is. Just consider him Snuggly #2 and move on. Don't even reply to him, he gets off on that.
6039420
Story's fine, chapter's fine. People aren't being objectively critical, they're making personal judgments and then trying to legitimize them. Most people don't even realize they're doing it and the two are one and the same for them. You're too sensitive to feedback, where some authors are ignorant of it, and others have found that sort of zen balance between the two. The readership's ability to correct you comes from the idea that with all these people surely there'll be someone who isn't an asshole that knows what they're talking about and will point out things that you could do better. Instead most of what we have on FIMFIC is people telling you what THEY want to see or don't want to see and dressing it up like it was pure fact.
Fiction's purpose is to entertain. Story is still entertaining. If some people are no longer entertained because their waifu is in trouble or somesuch, they are no longer part of the intended audience and then should quietly leave and not try to drag you down or force you to change things to suit them. They should only point out things that are undeniably wrong, anything else is an opinion or suggestion, no matter how much it doesn't seem like it when they say it. Carry on, carry on.
6039911 Carabas isn't even wedded enough to the chapter to say he won't change it and his comments suggest he's pretty surprised his intended foreshadowing didn't take effect.
And I disagree with your point about the story continuing to be entertaining. While that may mean I'm no longer part of the intended audience, comments here suggest his intended audience had some very different expectations than he did. And his willingness to change suggests he'd like to keep his audience.
"Feel free to leave" is fine for one or two people, not for a lot
Frankly if Fimfiction didn't want opinions given it wouldn't have reviews or downvotes
6038823
I was thinking that exactly
6039867 I thought those two had promise, too. Then I read "The Sun is One of Those Vital Things." It contributed strongly to my previous analysis, as did his own commentary on recurring use of those characters. He's obviously well pleased with his construct. Understandable, it shows skill as a writer, but the tone and context ruins its merit.
6039911 I resent your use of the word "troll." What you need to remember is that commentary does not have to be positive in order to be valid. Neither does an opinion need to be universally accepted. My opinion is informed, considered, and defended when questioned. Nothing more, nothing less.
6039941
Let me point something out for you. Comments don't represent jack. Any of us down in here are the vocal minority at all times. Just because a majority of comments are all whinging because they personally don't like something doesn't mean the author fucked up and doesn't mean that's even a 'lot' of people in comparison to the readership. Not to mention there's a better way than a few people copping a squat on the story and telling the author it's bad just because THEY don't like what was written. The people who like what's going on are staying quiet, reading the chapter, and usually leaving to read more things. They are, by and large, the majority. Otherwise that dislike bar would be more even with the likes. People typically only get involved in the comments if there's something they really didn't like, or because they're looking for a fight, or because they're here to troll and be generally unpleasant because they have a small dick.
Everyone believes themselves to be the most right. You don't like it, so to you that means it is undeniably not good. In your world, it is a fact of the universe that this chapter is crap and needs to die. I'm neither for nor against the chapter itself. It gave me contrast between the two Twilights, information I was missing on the older Twilight, and put the heroine in one fuck of a pickle. I'm not going to go all elitist and say I need more than that and it needs to be polished until a diamond looks like hard mud on the bottom of my size sixteen boot. And my point about the author being too sensitive to feedback is true. A balance between taking suggestions into consideration against what you want to accomplish has always been more important to the post-writing process as fact than it is to basically just do what you're told by people who like it too much or don't like it enough. I've seen where that path leads, it's not pretty. Oh, those poor and butchered stories... like too many plastic surgeries.
My point about opinions is that most people don't represent their opinions as opinions, and it just comes across as 'this is a critical fact and you need to capitulate' when they write it. Now, as I said, most people don't realize that. You're also one of the rarer reasonable sort, so I'm not even holding that against you. If you don't like the chapter, that's fine! You're entitled to not like something. But saying a whole chapter should be completely scrapped is pushing it. Whatever problems people have with the continuity of this chapter can be smoothed over in the next one rather than delaying updates just because some people want something different.
You see where I'm comin' from, yeah? Don't have to agree, just feel me.
Well, the quasi-mind control is darker than I was expecting, but honestly not that much.
You did rather unambiguously set up that future!Twilight is not a nice person; she's more rational and sociopathic than I was expecting her to be, but I'd hardly call this turn of events shocking.
Will be interesting to see how (if?) Twilight manages to actually get out of this.
Alright. I believe the comments section could use a break for now - the moment where page-long comments are being produced and downvotes are gathering thick and fast is a sign people need to step back - but I'll leave some feedback here.
The current plan, though, is to keep the chapter up for now, but to start planning out a replacement and the knock-on effects for the story's plot. It's not an exact science, this writing business, and I can't fairly promise a deadline for when new chapters will be completed and submitted. Consider the story on hold for the meantime.
6039485
Regardless of how the story progresses now, I'll likely keep the tag.
No small fan of dark comedy, here.
6039496
Much obliged for the breakdown. I'll be sure to take the points you raise into consideration.
I'd genuinely forgotten about those reform spells. Huh.
6039594 6039686
Cheers for the votes of confidence. I don't think the chapter's likely to stay, though. If this gets completed, I'll sling this original version in at the end as a additional feature. Let any future readers make up their minds from that.
6039845
If the shift the chapter represented was jarring enough that it's tainted the prospect of any other Comedy-tagged stuff I've put out. then that's fair enough. And if you've gone on to read Moonlight Palaver and found it in keeping with what you predicted, then that's even fairer. But I do take exception to the notion that the Darker fare is to be immediately judged as amateur and me trying to be 'in vogue' ... or that people who like it need 'sympathies' in any way.
6039911
Caw canny with accusations of trolling. Every commenter here seems to be coming from a sincere place, and even where the tone's abrasive, I've not been given any reason to distrust the content.
Furthermore, the personal judgements people are leaving here are necessary for me. If I'm trying to communicate a particular idea or tone, then reader feedback lets me know whether or not I've succeeded in that. There'll always be scope for personal opinion or individual outliers that have different attitudes towards a piece of work, but the broad consensus here of those who've commented - and could be reasonably assumed to have been the most engaged with the story - is that the chapter's an unwelcome and clunky change in tone compared to the previous chapters. People haven't been objecting on the grounds that 'bad things happen to Twilight', they've been objecting on the grounds that the expectations of tone and content the story's thus far created have been royally screwed over. I'd be remiss as an writer trying to improve my craft if I didn't take note.
6040111
That was an early attempt at indicating Future Twilight was exceedingly bad news. It's a fairly minor note, though, and I suspect Time Police bungling drowned it out for most.
6039420
Some time back, I had a similar (though perhaps not so large) volley of negative comments on one of my stories - this one here. In response, I split the story; including an alternate version that lacked the complained-about addition alongside the original tale.
Now, I did feel that the original would make a better story. Having written both, I still think that the original was the better story... but the gap wasn't nearly as large as I'd feared (the alternate ending ended up working out a lot better than I'd originally expected).
Looking at the ratio of likes to dislikes on the two stories, I conclude that the average reader would have preferred the first story; it has substantially more people willing to give it a thumbs-up (or a thumbs-down), and a lower percentage of those were thumbs-down (a smidgen over six percent on the original story, ten percent on the alternate version).
Having gone through that experience, I would consider very carefully before making substantial changes based on reader feedback of an incomplete story.
--------------
I think that what you have here, is a fundamental disconnect between the way the author sees the story, and the way the readers see the story. As an author, you know what's going to happen. You see the problem, and you see the solution. In fact, you deliberately craft the problem in such a way that it can have a solution. So... for you, the problem is always solvable. It is not as dark for you as it is for me, because in your mind, the knowledge of how the problem is going to be solved lightens the corners somewhat.
To me, as a reader, the corners remain dark. I do not see an easy solution to this situation. (I see several possible difficult ones, but they are all unlikely to work). Also, I have to consider the possibility that the problem is not, in fact, ever solved; that Evil Twilight wins and this story sinks into the darkness and remains there. (With the story in its current position, that is a plausible ending).
I have to consider the rather dark possibility that Evil Twilight will keep her TwiPuppet spell going, right up until Present Twilight puts on the Alicorn Amulet; because what is stopping her? I have to consider the possibility that Evil Twilight is still under the influence of the TwiPuppet spell, trapped within her own mind by an evil alternate personality born of a temporal bootstrap paradox. When I consider all the ways that this story can plausibly go, from this point, I see a whole lot of dark and very little hope of light, short of Future Twilight doing something stupid.
But I don't think that's reason for you to make major changes to the story.
Mind you, I do think it's too early in the story for an Apparently Hopeless Situation. Those are best reserved for the climactic scene in the last act. I do think it would help - a lot - if the story ended on some hint that the TwiPuppet spell will not erase all signs of the future from the timeline, or will not hold Twilight permanently. (Some possibilities include - a brief description of a clue, like the note to herself Twilight left earlier, still sitting there, perhaps rustling in the breeze; or a scene, just a paragraph or so, back in the future, showing the continued existence of high levels of Flux and someone worriedly stating that something's still wrong; or Twilight memory-wiping herself and the TwiPuppet spell ending).
Basically, give us a spot or two of light, to soften the dark tones, and I think it will go a lot better. (Mind you, when we get to the final-act climactic scene, that might well be an appropriate time for the Apparently Hopeless Situation).
6040219
I wonder if it was a combination of both Future Twilight's evilness and the apparent hopeless of Present Twilight's position that helped create the general reaction to the chapter. Alleviating the latter with some clue as how it'll be solved might be very advisable. I do have something of a solution planned and I know what's to follow. The lack of a Tragedy tag should hopefully give some reassurance.
Exceedingly obliged to you for all of this.
6040219 As one of the people who helped get the alternate version of Equestria's First Warp Drive written, I'm sorry you disliked the experience. I enjoyed your second version much more than your first and upvoted it, I felt it was a far superior story and made much more sense(always something important to me.)
I'm a little surprised it feels early in the story for an apparently hopeless situatuion to you, because to me it feels to late in the story for a dark twist to extend it.
And the more I read this chapter, the more it doesn't make sense, because Future Twilight does not need to go back there. She has no need to reveal herself, no need to talk to anyone.
Okay, turns out she survived being overthrown(How was she overthrown given the backstory Carabas has given her?) if she's willing to screw up time by talking with her past self then why not just go back and kill whoever led the rebellion in their crib. After all, if she's going back to talk with past Twilight, but doesn't remember it then she is changing time so she must be planning on screwing with it.
6040288 to be perfectly honest, with memory erasure Twilight's helplessness comes across as totally unnecessary.
As for future Twilight's evilness, you need to make the Time Police's competence more obvious and downplay their comedy, and perhaps show an actual scene with Future Twilight before the reveal. Which kind of ruins the shocking surprise, but as you've seen this chapter, the shock was a net negative for the story.
I suppose I just don't feel you can have a comedy story with a legitimately, successfully evil Twilight
6039016 6039420
Ah, but if the timeline that leads to the creation of the Time Police were to be erased by altered past events, how would members of the Time Police know that action needed to be taken to preserve the organization's existence, since it then never existed in the first place and officers thus weren't dispatched to fix the problem? The only way the concept of Time Police even works is if the organization comes downstream from a timeline that stems from the root of the past in question—trying to maintain the general structure of timelines in general, permitting their branch-segment to exist (though the exact path the branch follows to that specific segment might meander)—or a parallel timeline where past events were similar enough to be indistinguishable from the timeline it thinks it's trying to maintain.
On a side note, I've thought that Twilight is the perfect pony to manage a long-term Xanatos Gambit. She has the obsessive attention to detail and ability to forecast possible event outcomes necessary to make one work.
6040292
I'm not saying I disliked it. The experience was very educational, and I do consider the alternate story to be a reasonable one. (It's certainly substantially better than I imagined it would be at the time of the split).
I'm saying that I still consider the original story the better one of the two (though they're close enough that I can easily see how you might disagree), and therefore I don't think I'm likely to want to do a split like that again in the future. I just wish I had some better form of comparison than the upvote/downvote ratios on the two stories.
Wow... I waited until later to post a comment after reading the story early this morning, and the whole thing explodes! Interesting to see a few very strong reactions to this chapter. I found this chapter depressing, sure, and dark indeed... But I took heart in the fact that the story isn't finished. I suppose I also don't find it overly hopeless, even though we're lead to wonder how Twilight can possibly win over her evil future self... In the current show, the powers of Harmony are so hard-wired into Twilight that her Cutie Mark vibrates when It needs her. I wonder if Tirek or any other such event is still in this Twilight's future, as I don't see Evil Twi's influence surviving the activation of a rainbow blast.
In any event, I enjoyed the contrast between the two Twi's. While I share the rest of the cast's high opinion about Twilight's general incorruptible nature, I do recognize that everyone has a breaking point. This chapter represented that whole "frog in boiling water" thing... Our Twilight never experienced the events that drove her future self to extremes, and so it's unbelievable she could ever tolerate reaching that point. I don't really want to dwell on the events that drove her to such darkness, but this chapter made a convincing case that it could happen.
I look forward to seeing how Twilight thwarts herself going forward... I somehow knew removing the Amulet alone wouldn't do it (although I appreciated that she was able to do it. A pony has to remove it themselves, and since Twilight is herself, that was a nice loophole to exploit.). Hopefully it's a less drastic solution than the various time assassins have decided to pursue.
6040337
Either bolstering the Time Police's competence or downplaying Future Twilight's competence/evilness would seem like the fixes the chapter needs. The former might be more congruent with the Future Twilight on display, but it might also annul the draw I suspect the story initially had for the readers. Leaning towards the latter currently. This is all in flux, so arguments for or against are welcomed.
6040345
The imminent erasure of the timeline is measured in Fray, as seen in scenes in Time Police HQ. If they detect it spiking, they can send a team of
competentofficers to prevent the Fraying incident.6040546
Glad to see you here, man ... if not in the best of current story circumstances. There is something vaguely resembling a plan for all this going forwards, and no matter what changes I make, there'll be a lot of thwarting needing to be done, no question.
6040804
you know, I think it says something about the Time Police's apparent competence that no one thought of them being the ones to take care of Tyrant Twilight mind controlling her past self, since her popping up in the past like that should be damaging the timeline. Till just now.
...I'm sorry, but I can't believe that discord did nothing to stop an ultimate order
6040804
So you're going with the earthquake or thunder & lightning analogy, i.e., that alterations to the timeline take… wait for it… time to propagate downstream to the future, with precursors that travel faster permitting detection and reaction? It never made much sense to me, since it means that (A) somehow the corrective (re)action to events upstream in the past must propagate downstream to the future even faster than the original event's effects in order to prevent the future from changing, and (B) counteragents from even farther downstream in the future should be able to enter the fray (see what I did there?) to counter the (re)actions of the Time Police. It's a common enough time travel trope, however.
If you can track down a copy, check out Thrice Upon a Time by James P. Hogan. No Time Police, but it does illustrate how the idea of trying to save the world by sending even simple messages into the past can begin to snowball.
6041201 generally the idea with time taking time to change and people going back, isn't that they have to be faster downstream than the changes up but that actually traveling back in time basically takes you out of the time line, thus making you immune to changes
6041256
Which means that no traveller (assassin, Time Police officer, sight-seer, dinosaur hunter, etc.) upstream into the past returns to the future downstream he/she departed, since that was wiped out by the changes the first alteration to the timeline wrought. One can only hope to return to a future stemming from the corrections to past events that is sufficiently similar to the one the traveller left to be indistinguishable from it. Which still doesn't address the issue of agents from even farther downstream in the future than the Time Police, but from the timeline in which the original Time Police never existed (due to the original timeline-changing event effects continuing to propagate downstream)—stepping in to preserve their timeline.
6041140
There are certain steps one can take to avoid too much disruption and Fraying in time, which may bear elaborating on in future. The Time Police are mostly a blunt instrument addressing the biggest breaches - one pony going back in time and covering their tracks under secrecy won't draw much attention or cause especial Fray.
6041194
Offscreen, by the time of the war Future Twilight discusses, Discord's been ... dealt with through suspect means. The method isn't that plot-shatteringly important, but will be brought up in a future chapter. Possibly.
6041201
Sense is, admittedly, on poor terms with this version of time travel. The concept of the downstream delay seemed narratively necessary to give the Time Police anything like a fighting chance.
I've been getting a few other recommendations today related to this chapter, so far in private messages. I'll add Thrice Upon a Time to the list.
6041351
"James T. Kirk."
"The one and only!"
"Seventeen separate temporal violations—the biggest file on record."
"The man was a menace."
"Time travel. Ever since my first day on the job as a Starfleet Captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these god-forsaken paradoxes. The future is the past, the past is the future. It all gives me a headache."
Yeesh, just skimmed the comments section.
Yeah, it was surprising amount of darkness. The 'Adventure' tag covered the assassinations and implied bad things off-screen, but this chapter definitely earns the fic a 'Dark' tag. Some warning would have been nice, but the anger on display seems strange. The story isn't over and the phrase 'darkest before dawn' springs to mind.
I offer this advice. Do what's best for the story. If that means re-writing because you didn't convey what you wanted to, then so be it. If that means keeping the chapter the same because it is integral to the plot you want to tell, then so be it. Either way, don't make a decision based on the audience's expectations/demands.