Welcome to the first, and hopefully not last, meeting of the AppleDash Fic Club!

This works more or less like a book club: We announce a fic, then after giving everyone some time to read it we start talking about it. We're aiming for two weeks, but if we find people need more or less time we'll adjust it as we go along.

The Rules:
There will be spoilers in the discussion. Read at your own risk if you haven't finished it.
Both positive and negative opinions are fine, people who didn't like the fic will probably provide some of the best discussion. That being said, be prepared to defend your points. If you didn't like the characterization or found the plot unbelieveable, tell us why or give us examples.
Any aspect of the fic is up for discussion, not just the romance. If there's a side plot or character that you'd like to rant or rave about, go right ahead!
Only this fic is up for discussion. Try not to drag other fics into it, including sequels. Also, don't spoil any sequels there might be, other people might not have read them.

Now, for our first fic selection!
To Fix You by BronyNeumo - 26082 words - Romance, Tragedy, Sad, Dark
Sometimes, when you've lost so much, when everything you do seems to come out wrong, and when you don't feel like anything but a failure, it can seem like there is no other option but to give up. 

But when one pony feels so lost, so inconsolable, so forlorn, that she makes a life-changing decision that almost leaves her shattered forever, it is up to her friends to bring her back. 

... />When you lose something that you can't replace, when you love someone but it goes to waste, and when the tears come streaming down your face, is there anyone who you can turn to... 

...to fix you? 

So, read (or re-read) it, form some opinions, and post here! PM me if you have any questions.

Okay, so I'm going to get the ball rolling here, and I'll be back later today with more to talk about.

So right off the bat, I'd like to say that this fic handled a serious subject quite well, in my opinion. The plot was exciting and I think the writing was beautiful, which is high praise from me because my usual view is that if it's not dialogue it's not important.

There were a few issues I had, and I'd love to hear other peoples opinions. I had some problems with Rarity's reaction, considering that Dash was suicidal and none of the other characters knew that she had really regained the will to live at that point. I kind of wondered why no pony was stepping in for that reason, it seems like a bad idea to berate somepony who's just shown that they already hate themselves enough to end their life.

Mostly I thought the characters were spot on, but there were a few places where it felt like Dash broke character to deliver an important monologue. They seemed to be in a different style of speech. Did anyone else notice that?

There are some other things I want to cover later, when I have a little more time, so I'll leave some general questions for right now:

What did you think of the basics of the story (plot, characterization, structure)?
Was there anything you particularly liked?
Was there anything that rubbed you the wrong way?

Feel free to go into more than that, just keep the rules in mind and remember that shorter paragraphs are easier to reply to.

Characterization wise, I believe it's somewhat flawed. Yes, as sonic rainboom showed, dash does have some issues and can shut down... but I think suicide is not something she'd consider, and would instead just try again/harder.

In the spirit of suspension of disbelief and reading the fic however... Dash seems, when she awakens, to revert to "what? killing myself?! no way!" rather too quickly. And the fic, overall, has some grammatical issues... or something. It felt very awkward to read at some times, which is less visible in Bronyneumo's later works. Chalk it up to being one of his first pieces, I'd guess. It could do with a fair amount of revision however.

Rarity does seem somewhat out of character here, as it would be socially inappropriate to rail at a recent suicide attempt victim. You'd think she'd know that! Fluttershy screaming... I also don't see happening. Rather, I would see her guilt Dash by speaking in a hush, in an emotionless fashion. Maybe one or two words screamed, sure, but the ongoing shouting not so much.

And my biggest gripe is the "already existing feelings" rather than developping them... or at least, not showing much of how those feelings came to be. Or not enough of it, at least.

Still though, overall I do like the story. One of my first Appledash stories, where a lot of material we have now didn't exist, and so on. Characterization suffers, but it's nescessary to cover such a subject, which I think it handled well... if a bit too quickly.

I think I lost my train of thought somewhere

394522 Okay. I too, liked the story. I did think the subject was handled well (though at times, and I know it was meant intentionally considering the theme sorta revolved around the music, the Coldplay references I found to be... eh).

I would like to start off by saying I agree with Rarity's reaction. I don't think that she would have done that, and, especially with the state Dash was in, Dash would not have reacted as such. It bothered me that Dash went from sulking, to near irate, to sulking again.

Also, Fluttershy seemed out of character to me (but she ALWAYS seems out of character, because to me, she is the hardest pony to write).

What drew me in was the scene with Applejack sitting with Dash in her hospital room. Applejack was pretty much spot on, and I really liked those scenes. Also, the dream Dash had where Fluttershy's heart moniter stopped was handled exceptionally well (though some people hate this sort of stuff), and I nearly cried for my favorite little butter-colored pegasus.

At the end, no matter how serious the concept, I thought it felt as if it had been handled in a children's show (which it had). Like, "there's a clear moral to this story, and I'm going to point it out as plainly as possible".

I don't know. That's how I felt.

I did like it, though, I truly did.

394544
You brought up one of the main things I wanted to touch on, with Dash's feelings when she wakes up. I was thinking about that, and I figured that's the reason for the Pony Limbo chapter, to show Dash's decision to live.

But then that whole chapter started to bother me. I was left wondering what the motivations for the turn around were there, and the reasons for pretty much everything that happened. I liked the concept- I liked her meeting her lost hope, but I felt like the symbolism was lost after that. Why did they turn into monsters? What did that represent? That's kind of important, because when it comes down to it that's suppose to be the cause of her turn around.

One thing the author might be trying to go for there (with or without realizing.) The characters in purgatory turn to monsters when Dash touches them, when she touches death. In psychology, there's a huge difference between attempting suicide and committing suicide. Often people who believe themselves to be completely serious will attempt suicide, and sometimes succeed, but it's often done spur of the moment, in ways that are easily interrupted. Much like Dash's attempt, and often with a similar 'what was I thinking?' reaction if someone saves them. Whether they kill themselves or not, they had a suicidal moment, rather than being suicidal.

On the other hand, people who are seriously suicidal tend to plan it carefully, making sure that their affairs are in order and they won't be interrupted, saying goodbye to friends and family, etc. They're often happier once they start setting their plans in motion. These people almost always succeed.

The only issue with this is that it lessens some of the drama of the fic. It becomes about Dash going momentarily crazy and hurting Fluttershy, then coming to her senses. Which is probably why the problematic Rarity scene was included? It introduces tension that got drained out when Dash woke up no longer suicidal.

Does anyone have any ideas about the symbolism of the Limbo scene?

394545
I completely agree about the hospital dream sequence. As opposed to pony Limbo, I felt that was handled perfectly, with enough realism, enough dream quality, and a perfectly clear message about what Dash was feeling to cause this dream. (Which I think are important in all dream sequences.)

And I also agree about the children's show point, but I think it's hard to avoid a moral in "issue" fics. Thinking of the ones I've read (or am writing) the problem seems to be that it's easy to lose sight of the characters in the issue, and I think it's a problem with both writers and readers.

The issue at hand is going to distract readers, their attention is going to be on "Dash and Suicide" (or in truly awful cases on "Suicide and Dash", but I think that was avoided here) rather than on Dash. The writer then has to go a few extra steps to really tie the issue to the character, to really make the character equal to the issue, otherwise the moral pounds you on the head at the end because it's the ending to the part you were focused on.

Does that make sense? Do you think it's what you were seeing?

Boy, you guys use such fancy words. Here are my 2 cents

I liked the dream sequence, I was already fretting that we might lose Fluttershy soon and when the heart beat flatlined, I lost it.
The Limbo sequence was kinda odd. Sometimes hard to follow and some things just didn't make sense. the emotions(Don't know which ones besides hope) in the lake turning into monsters, the forest trying to stop Dash.
The romance was kinda out of nowhere but I liked it though

All in all, I liked the fic
Its sequel I like more though

I can't make this a short post, but I will do my best to keep the commentary of each segment brief.

STORY: Right out of the gate, this story offers a premise that I cannot accept. Dash has many flaws and many insecurities, but I have a hard time buying that she would respond to failure with suicide. Actually, there aren't many ways I could buy it. Intentional sacrifice? Sure. Abandonment? Yes, but only if it was true abandonment and not "my friends ditched me today and now I'm sad." That's about it. I've read a couple tragic Dash fics that all portray her as emotionally weak. And I understand this comes from watching "Sonic Rainboom" and watching her anxiety take hold, but that anxiety made sense to me given the circumstances. I don't see her as emotionally weak. Emotionally immature, yes, but not weak.

There are also the little details in the set up that break my immersion. Dash's parents dying in a fire is one. For starters, well, it's kind of odd picturing RD as a filly living in a ground home. More importantly though, it feels very thrown in, treated with the same level of severity as the three idiot bullies from flight camp and her own inability to admit her feelings to Applejack. There's also the moment where Fluttershy catches Dash at a minimum fifty feet before impact. Now, even if I can suspend my belief enough where Dash would kill herself over failures real and perceived, the story made it very clear that she only wanted to take herself out and didn't want anyone else getting hurt in the process. She was depressed, not nihilistic. So why didn't she notice that Fluttershy caught her? The story only says Dash closed her eyes, folded her wings, and dropped. Nothing about losing consciousness in the descent, and we know she can handle long drops without blacking out. That part didn't make sense.

Some fics you can start by kicking the reader over the precipice. Others, you need to walk up to the edge first before taking the plunge. I feel like this story really could have used a prologue at least.

CHARACTERS: Applejack and Rainbow Dash felt skewed at times. AJ's quiet strength at the beginning was nicely handled, and I thought her personal tragedy reveal was done better than any of the others in the story. It's just... I was waiting for some evolution that never came. Even Rarity had movement, but I'll get to her in a second. Now I know there's a follow-up story, and I haven't read that one yet, so this isn't really a criticism. Just something I wasn't expecting.

Rainbow Dash comes off as pretty broken, and even with the hopeful ending I never got a sense that she healed, which was good. This was a serious subject to tackle and not something that ends with happily ever after. And to be honest, I liked the immediate switch in chapter 3 when she wakes up, realizes what she did and tries at first to deny it before following it up with anger at Rarity. That felt more in character than the suicidal depression that started the whole mess: her desire to be always strong, not to emotionally expose herself even to friends. I don't think she's a cold fish or anything, but I can believe that concept over a suicide attempt. That only parts that felt off for Dash were in some of her speaking lines. Sometimes they felt too formal, though maybe she was still being cautious.

Rarity on the other hand was a big swing and a miss on a slider in the dirt. Her character is excessively confrontational and lacking in all manner of social practices, something I can't see her letting slide especially when she knew she was talking to a trauma victim. While her anger over Dash's "you don't understand my pain" line was justified, it didn't come until after she got RD's blood up in the first place. If the author wanted to provide a different perspective, I almost wonder if Twilight would have been a better choice of character, someone who wouldn't have as much practice with social interaction and so might be more prone to saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Interestingly, Twi is the character we see the least of. Outside the book she gives Dash at the end, I didn't find much in this story that distinguished her. Instead, I thought most of her lines could have been delivered by any of the others.

PACING/SHIPPING: They go hand in hand since the resolve of this story seemed to pair Applejack with Rainbow Dash, rather the address any psychological scarring. Maybe that happens in the next story, I don't know. Overall, I felt this romance moved too fast. In the span of a chapter we go from non-existence, to reveal, to sleeping together (non-sexual), to HOLY CRAP PINKIE'S WANTS TO THROW A PARTY! Yeah, okay, we know from the start Dash was pining. And in the reveal we find out AJ always had feelings too, it just took a catastrophic event to bring it out. But that's my problem with it: we learn all this stuff after it's played out. How about something from Applejack's point of view beforehand? How about some flashbacks to previous events that this story hints at but never develops - like Dash being too scared to say something to AJ?

IMAGERY: My favorite part of the story. BronyNeumo does a very good job painting a picture of the setting, particularly the second chapter. I have almost no criticisms about it. There's enough tangible detail to follow the story and enough metaphysical interpretation that I wouldn't be surprised if everyone has a unique view of what happened, aside from the simplistic "Dash chooses life over death" summary. The way the author writes shows a little poetic touch too, whether it's writing about a night sky or pulling out an IV (Oh, and you do not pull out the IV of a patient after they just come out of a coma, no exceptions!). If I have one regret it's that most of the imagery was heavily visual. That's not bad, but it would have been nice to engage my other four senses a little more often.

DIALOGUE: This read more like a soap opera than an episode of mlp. Or to put it another way, this felt more like traditional theater. Nothing wrong with that. Theatrical performances with long blocks of text and monologues can be fun and dramatic and passionate and suspenseful. I have nothing against the style, I just prefer dialogue to be more like a song, with tempo and rhythm. Slow ballad, techno dance, avant-garde, or urban it makes no matter. Funny enough, I'm not a fan of Coldplay but I promise that had no bearing in my comments of this story.

OVERALL: In the end, I didn't like this story. Shocker, I know. Let me be clear though, I thought it was well written. Actually, the writing was my favorite part. I thought, with one notable exception, the characters stayed within themselves. That's not easy to do when you have a show with six strong, wildly different individuals. And the dialogue, though the style is not my first love, delivered in getting what the characters wanted to say across. Unfortunately, I can't get behind the premise of the story. It goes against a fundamental belief I have regarding Rainbow Dash. It also doesn't feel complete, almost like it should have been Act II of a larger story than something that could stand on its own.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Sorry for the overall length.

394656

<<Does anyone have any ideas about the symbolism of the Limbo scene?>>
I think you hit a lot of them: the psychological difference between attempting and committing suicide, touching death, the sea representing the passage to the other side like Charon over the Styx, Dash ultimately choosing life over death, etc.

I think they turn into monsters partly because they were emotions that Dash had twisted inside herself. Hope, love, and joy were all things that she felt devoid of, things that she felt she had lost, which was why she tried what she did in the first place. But these things never go away. They can be buried under an avalanche of pain but they stay a part of you, hidden and festering. After, whenever you think of hope, you're not really thinking of hope but instead all the pain that it caused. You create a monster out of your emotions.

However, I mainly think they were what Dash said they were: spies. Or rather, shades from the other side who impersonated aspects of her psyche using whatever knowledge they would have of her in a place like limbo (often used as a place of judgement). They were monstrous because, well, I don't think Dash was going to end up in a nice place had she chosen death and let them collect her. Suicide is frowned on in a lot of religious sects. I was raised Catholic, so doing that is considered a hell-worthy trespass. I won't inject my own views of religion and suicide into this discussion, but if BronyNeumo was at all inspired by any religious texts, and brought them over into Equestrian 'verse, then it's not difficult to make the transition from "killing yourself" to "damnation."

So Dash, in a quick moment, much like the one where she convinces herself to die, now convinces herself - or her soul, I guess - to live. The shades give chase, which reminded me briefly of scenes from the movie "Ghost." Dash sees light. She heads for it. The shades close in. And then... in the light she sees Applejack. In that moment, the true love, hope, joy - not the perverted abominations - that Dash always possessed returned, completed her again essentially. She holds on to that image and returns to the world.

Or, that's how I saw the scene unfold. Personal mileage may vary as they often do in dreams and visions.

394761
Some of the things that you found unbelieveable about the story (Dash attempting suicide, and Dash growing up on the ground) are things I find really interesting. But I do agree with you at the core, more of a set up is needed for both.

I didn't even think about Dash continuing after being caught by Fluttershy, but you're right, that does seem like a hole.

I saw AJ's lack of evolution as being her place in the story. She's the rock Dash needs, and her tragic backstory shows that she can be that rock, she can handle Dash's tragedy.

A part of what you're seeing in the pacing reminds me of a piece of writing advice I read once: Finish the story you started. That is, if you start a romance, it's over when the couple gets together or breaks up. If you start a story about a character contemplating suicide, it's over when the character either accepts death, or decides they want to live.

So the problem you're describing seems to be that this started as a story about Dash's psychological state (there wasn't enough info about the romance) and ended when AJ and Dash got together (while Dash's suicidal behavior was resolved earlier and the scarring will continue past the ending.)

I agree that the dialogue felt theatrical. I actually bookmarked some speeches that struck me as ooc, due to the formality of the language. I know next to nothing about Coldplay though, so I might have missed some references.

As for the symbolism: I definitely got a catholic feeling from it, for many of the reason you said. There was the feeling that her suicide was being punished by the monsters.

(On a related note, it makes me want to write a parody where Dash becomes Equestria's version of John Constantine.)

If I completely misinterpreted you anywhere, let me know!

395215

<<Some of the things that you found unbelieveable about the story (Dash attempting suicide, and Dash growing up on the ground) are things I find really interesting>>
Why? What is interesting about it? Since it's difficult to read inflection over the internet I'll add that I'm not challenging you. I'm honestly curious because I don't see Dash attempting to kill herself, at least not over failure. Or at least, not the way the story presented it. I'll agree that it's different, which can be useful when trying something new, trying to see how a character will react under unique situations. By that same notion, if I wrote a story from Lord of the Rings where Frodo Baggins is actually a serial killer, that would be different too. Would it be interesting though? Maybe, if a foundation could be first written and reasoned plot elements introduced to set up the motive that puts the character on his path. Without that, it would be hard for me to take the story seriously.

Just to clarify as well, I didn't find Dash living on the ground unbelievable. Odd, sure, but not something that would break my immersion. What I didn't like was how the death of RD's parents was introduced to us. I didn't do a very good job with that distinction.

<<I saw AJ's lack of evolution as being her place in the story. She's the rock Dash needs, and her tragic backstory shows that she can be that rock, she can handle Dash's tragedy.>>
Hmmm, that is unfair of me, especially when AJ's stability is the first thing I think about her character and not her honesty. Same thing with Dash, I think of her energy before her loyalty. Same with Rarity, I think of her artistry and inspiration before her generosity. And so on for the rest.

You describe my issues with the pacing more succinctly than I can. I think the author could have had his romance and psychology in the same story if more had been fleshed out in the beginning. Alternatively, sticking just to the suicide attempt and moving the romance and confrontation with Rarity to another story might also have worked.

<<I agree that the dialogue felt theatrical. I actually bookmarked some speeches that struck me as ooc, due to the formality of the language.>>
Please, share then if you like. Was there one monologue in particular that stood out? Also, the Coldplay references are in the title of the story, based on the song "Fix You." The lyrics are those italicized lines at the top of each chapter. And you can find individual lyrics paraphrased by characters in the story itself. Seems like a lot but it's not. I don't think knowing it adds any new information beyond author inspiration. If anyone thinks I'm wrong though, please speak up.

395836
Well, my thoughts on Dash and suicide have been perculating since some of the discussion in the comments of How to Do a Sonic Rainboom. There was discussion there about whether it's possible that Dash might not try out for the Wonderbolts if her friends needing her help prevented it year after year. As I was arguing that this was possible, I started making a connection between Dash and George Bailey from It's a Wonderful Life, and his willingness to pass up his dreams of going to college and traveling the world over and over again for his town, until something happens that removes both his chances of ever getting his dream and the life's work he gave them up for.

In a situation like that, where Dash misses her last chance at trying out for the Wonderbolts and causes some weather disaster, maybe one that damages her friend's and neighbor's property and endangers ponies lives (which I would think would carry an actual possibility of banishment, and definitely get her fired) I could see her losing hope. But the situation would have to be set up, as in It's a Wonderful Life. The whole first third of the movie is setting up the constant frustration that George has lived with in being the father/husband/neighbor that he felt he had to be.

That's why I agreed with the basis of your point. It's done too fast, and the stakes aren't high enough for readers to accept the premise.

As to the monologues that seemed off to me:

The emotional assault grew to be too much. In one movement, Rainbow shakily stood herself back up on the wet cloud. The cold wind chilled her again, but she no longer cared. In a solemn, grave voice, she began to speak to the emptiness again. “I… am a failure. I watched my parents die in a house fire, I didn’t save them, I didn’t protect them; I failed. I left Cloudsdale flight school to escape the bullying and the rules, I fled; I failed. I struggled for years to admit my feelings to the mare of my dreams, I made excuses, and I chickened out; I failed. I didn’t perform well enough to join the Wonderbolts, I flew horribly, and I was outshone by another pony; I failed.” She drew in a deep breath as she reached her final conclusion and spoke it to the world in front of her. “There is nothing left here for me.”

Some of the word choices here seem off to me. "Escape" instead of "get away from," "struggled" instead of "tried."

“I see trees, grass and other plants. I see rocks here and there and faded mountains on the horizon. Everywhere behind me looks like it could be Equestria, yet when I look out in this direction and all I see is endless water and sky. I see emptiness, nothingness. You can see all this! Why are you asking me! Part of this place looks like home but the other part is a just nothing as far as I can see!” she paused before screaming, “THIS MAKES NO SENSE!”

The screaming is Dash, but that rest of it. . . I don't think I can see Dash using "yet" as a conjunction, or describing "faded mountains on the horizon" so poetically.

Those two were the big ones. There was another that, looking at it again, I can't actually find anything wrong with. But I wasn't sure if those were paraphrasing song lyrics.

As a side note, Bronyneumo, if you're reading this... We do love the fic! We just are focusing on issues/flaws XD

I have always thought this to be one of the better MLP fics and whilst not Shakespeare, is certainly well written and constructed etc.

I think one of the contentions here is the suicide at the start of the story. Whilst unlikely it is possible and having read the testimony of people who survived throwing themselves under trains some people really just attempt suicide ex nihilo. Dash is in exactly the same situation as they often are - life seems to have lost meaning, there is no way out, and there is a quick and easy method of suicide readily available. To be brutally frank I am slightly amazed pegasi don't fall out the sky on a monthly basis.

I also think that the arc of the story was well judged - the story was about a suicide attempt, and ended at the point where Dash had accepted that she wanted to live and had been given a way to heal (Her relationship with AJ), and the most serious consequence of her suicide (Fluttershy's injury) had healed, at least physically.

Yes the pacing of the speeches was literary rather than kids TV, but in a medium of literature it works rather better and in my opinion helps the story flow so much better.

As for the Coldplay references, I got none of them and simply blot out song lyrics in stories.

396359
I can totally see your point on the story arc. I'm not sure I agree with it's execution, but that's a valid argument for the story structure. I hadn't considered it that way. Thank you.

As to the attempt itself, I agree in part. The plot hole that First_Down pointed out is kind of glaring. (That Dash was apparently conscious when Fluttershy caught her and no mention is made of her choosing to take Fluttershy down with her.)

But more than that, I think the ability to accept or deny the premis comes down to how much of her life Dash's dream of being a Wonderbolt really is. On the one hand, yes, it's absolutly central to her life. But on the other, she's also one of the elements of harmony, a hero of Equestria, and the only pegasus alive to do a sonic rainboom. Like I said in an above comment, I can totally see her being driven to suicide if her life seemed hopeless, but I do think it might take more than that to do it.

The problem with the speeches isn't literary language, it's literary language coming from Dash. Other characters on the show use that language regularly (I'm often surprised at the vocabulary Rarity has, for it being a kids show.) If your argument is that Dash doesn't talk like that on the show because it's a kids show, then why does Rarity talk like that on a kids show? I'd counter that Dash doesn't talk like that because it's not how she talks.

But I will absolutely say that it only tends to happen during those speeches, and the rest of the time I had no problem with her characterization or dialogue.

Finally, I'd like to thank you for responding, and I hope you'll let me know your reaction to what I said. I want for this to be a discussion from all sides and all points of view, and I was worried that it was becoming too uniform.

Also, something I meant to say earlier in this conversation-

BronyNeumo is amazing at descriptive writing. The limbo scene stands out as one of the best descriptive chapters I've read in fanfic, but I need to make a special mention of the hospital scenes as well. Those take a special kind of writer, one who is really dedicated to sensory experience, and that's truly a talent. Especially the openings of most of the chapters were beautifully done.

(I know First_Down mentioned this as part of his review, but I wanted to go on the record about it myself.)

395899

<<I definitely got a catholic feeling from it, for many of the reason you said. There was the feeling that her suicide was being punished by the monsters.>>
I didn’t mention it last time for some reason but the limbo chapter reminded me, in a positive way, of a webcomic I occasionally browse called Jack. It’s graphic (sometimes edging to outright gross), especially since a lot of it is set up like The Divine Comedy, so I won’t link it here. It’s about anthropomorphic characters journeying through life, death and the afterlife, centered primarily on the seven deadly sins, Wrath in particular. Some of the stories slip a little from overly hammy writing, but the ones he nails are riveting. You might like it. You might not.

<<In a situation like that, where Dash misses her last chance at trying out for the Wonderbolts and causes some weather disaster,>>
That does sound intriguing, especially since Dash’s absence would alter the storylines of the other five characters drastically. Which then could have ripple effects over Equestria as a whole. You have something in place for Dash’s friends to abandon her over whatever disaster she’s responsible for? One thing I noticed in the show was how Dash’s confidence can wax and wane depending on whether her friends have her back or not. Actually, most of them are like that come to think of it.

<<As to the monologues that seemed off to me:>>
That first one is interesting. When I read it I paused over the repetition, not the word choice. I see where you’re coming from though. It’s not the language per se, it’s the character those words are coming out of.

<<BronyNeumo is amazing at descriptive writing>>
Agreed. The writing was my favorite part. I got a great mind’s eye of everything that was happening throughout the story. Since I sampled individual moments I didn’t like, it’s only fair I sample some of the narration I did like.

It was a low roar, but not a threatening roar, it sounded rhythmic, relaxing, soothing even. The cycle of sounds seemed to grow, peak and recede in pitch, creating a soothing ebb and flow of sound that matched the harmony of the scene.

Grow, peak, recede. I had waves in my head before he even revealed the ocean. That’s how great this part is.

Leaning out over the edge and stared down at the calm surface beneath her. She was confronted with a reflection of her own face, lit by the soft moonlight and silhouetted by a surrounding aura of thousands upon thousands of pinpricks of light, reflected from the night sky. Magenta eyes met Magenta eyes and Rainbow Dash saw into herself – for the first time – truly understanding.

I don't even care the first sentence is a fragment. That's just awesome, and it's immediately followed by:

For in that instant, in that one, indescribable instant by the edge of a glassy lake underneath the lights of the night sky, Rainbow Dash felt an orange muzzle pressed to her own and a set of pony lips onto that of her own.

You know, for a story inspired by a song, it’s funny that when I read those two parts I thought of a different song. But still, this is incredibly intimate.

395952

<<As a side note, Bronyneumo, if you're reading this... We do love the fic! We just are focusing on issues/flaws>>

I hope he comments if he has time. I would like to get the author's perspective/commentary. It could really add to the discussion.

396359

Glad you joined in! Always nice to hear from new voices and varying opinions.

<<To be brutally frank I am slightly amazed pegasi don't fall out the sky on a monthly basis.>>
Ha! It does seem like an easy out, doesn't it? I've always seen it as one of those instances where - beyond it first and foremost being a children's show - ponies are not humans. They live a life where there seems to be a stronger connection overall to friendship and community. They live more in harmony with each other as it were. That probably toughens up their constitution.

<<the story was about a suicide attempt, and ended at the point where Dash had accepted that she wanted to live and had been given a way to heal (Her relationship with AJ), and the most serious consequence of her suicide (Fluttershy's injury) had healed, at least physically.>>
I agree the story tied up its loose ends before the finale, Fluttershy's critical state, Rarity's confrontation, etc. However, the most important thread, Dash's suicide attempt, was resolved in Chapter 4. Technically, it resolved at the end of chapter 2 when Dash's instincts - can souls have instincts? - chose life over death. That was her way to heal; she didn't want to die. But I'll admit Chapter 4 is where the dialogue between Applejack and RD takes place, the mutual openness of their feelings for each other, AJ pretty much spelling out that she's glad Dash chose to be with her, Dash confirming to herself she wanted to live, and so on. The last two chapters don't really grow that relationship beyond their genesis. Don't get me wrong, it's sweet. The end of Chapter 5 is beautifully written. But "I don't want to go back to my home alone" is not much of a stretch from the "I didn't want to die because I didn't want to lose you" reveal at the end of the previous chapter.

<<Yes the pacing of the speeches was literary rather than kids TV, but in a medium of literature it works rather better and in my opinion helps the story flow so much better.>>
That's fair, and Bronyneumo's narrative writing displays a slower, more imaginative pace. So slower, more evocative dialogue does seem to fit the bill. However, I guess my hang-up with that is that when I read Dash giving a long speech full of pretty prose, I don't hear Dash. I hear the author. In dialogue, I'd rather the characters be themselves.

Ok, So I really wanted to take part in this discussion it was going on, but I was traveling, and thus unable to, so my comment here will have to suffice...

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Thanks Tchernie! I needed that!

Anyway, I'll now see if I can't address all your points in one all-encompassing, excessively-long post.

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I'll try and go in chronological order here...

1. The Beginning:
To be honest, I mostly agree with everything you guys brought up about the beginning. When I was writing the first chapter, I was literally in a fit of inspiration-driven madness, literally: "I just had this great idea and I want to write a story about it now." I had previously read a couple "RD attempts suicide" fics, and I hadn't felt them to be exceptionally well-done, so I thought, "Hey, why not try my own?" So I did, and I wrote that first chapter in the space of about 2 hours. I guess going so fast in the beginning came back to bite me in the ass later. They say "hindsight is 20-20", and I couldn't agree more.

Looking back on my work, I really feel that it could have done with a prologue. Like First_Down said: "Some fics you can start by kicking the reader over the precipice. Others, you need to walk up to the edge first before taking the plunge. I feel like this story really could have used a prologue at least." Well, I agree. You guys have said that Dash's feelings for AJ (and vice-versa) needed more of an introduction, and I think I definitely could have done that with a Prologue. I also think I could have built up to the suicide attempt more. I probably hurt this story by diving right in.

The Premise:
Every story needs a premise, and this is the one I chose. I'm sorry if some can't accept that (First_Down, I'm so sorry you didn't like it!), but that's the nature of the beast, I suppose...

However, on the topic of suicide, I believe bookplayer hit the nail on the head with this: "The characters in purgatory turn to monsters when Dash touches them, when she touches death. In psychology, there's a huge difference between attempting suicide and committing suicide. Often people who believe themselves to be completely serious will attempt suicide, and sometimes succeed, but it's often done spur of the moment, in ways that are easily interrupted. Much like Dash's attempt, and often with a similar 'what was I thinking?' reaction if someone saves them. Whether they kill themselves or not, they had a suicidal moment, rather than being suicidal." That's really the type of suicide I was going for - not premeditated, if that helps at all.

The Plot Hole: (heh heh, plot hole...)
Again, First_Down brought this up. Dash either doesn't notice or doesn't care when Fluttershy catches her. I guess I'll have to chalk this plot-hole up to my own idiocy. I literally NEVER thought about that before. It never crossed my mind that Dash would have done anything between when FS catches her and when they hit the ground.

Pony Limbo:
To be honest, this was my absolute favorite scene to write. And, just for the record, I'll provide my own interpretation, what was going through my head as I wrote it:

She wakes up in a place that is both familiar and unfamiliar, and here a strange sound (waves) far off. She walks here, and is confronted with her emotions (her shattered hope, if you will). After she has the conversation with that shade of her former self, and sees her parents, she goes to touch the water. The water (emptiness, nothingness) represents death, the nothingness that would be the great beyond if she chose to die. The water's association with death is then furthered by the water turning to blood as soon as she touches it. This scares her because, ultimately, she isn't suicidal. As bookplayer said, her suicide was on a whim, she wasn't really suicidal. When actually confronted with the finality, the emptiness, and the bleakness of death, she is afraid, as she should be. So she turns and runs. The shades of herself and her parents, which I fully agree with First_Down here, they were literally spies. They were merely the personifications of her depression. Just as she was never really suicidal, she was never really hopeless. So, the entire idea of "shattered hope" is not Rainbow Dash (if you will). So, as soon as she confronts death by touching the water, those shades of herself reveal their true nature: They are monsters (spies). Then, they give chase, because they still want Dash to go through with killing herself, even though this is no longer what Dash herself wants.

The storm, and the trees that try to catch her as she flies, are representative of her emotions rebelling against her conscious (if that makes sense). Remember, she has confronted death, and, having seen the true nature of death, no longer wants it. So she must fight to escape it, and flying against both the spies (as they give chase) and against the storm is representative of that struggle - her struggle to escape death. The ultimate deciding factor in this struggle is that she sees an escape - a light - and that light is Applejack. So, by thinking of Applejack, she is able to gain the true inspiration needed to escape death. And she does.

Rarity's reaction:
Looking back on it, I don;t like it. When I was writing it, I thought it worked, but now, I don;t think it works. If I could write it again, I might have tried something different.

Dash's characterization and Dialogue:
I think the main problem here is one I experienced a lot in my early writing: I treated Rainbow Dash as my character, rather than the show's character. So, I wrote her dialogue the way that I wanted it to go, without a second thought as to whether or not it "sounded like Rainbow Dash". Rookie mistake.

As for her as a character, a lot of her being ooc comes from my choice of premise, which I feel can't be helped, beyond writing a prologue (as I mentioned earlier).

AJ and Fluttershy's Characterization:

AJ was always supposed to be Rainbow Dash's rock in this story. Nothing more. So she, by design, isn't much of a dynamic character. She is more dynamic in the sequel, however.

Fluttershy, I feel, was done well up until she woke up. I struggled for a long while to think of how to write her when she woke up, and I went with 'Angry' Fluttershy, but with an emotional check in the middle of her rant because, ultimately, she still loves RD, and doesn't want to hurt her. I felt that, especially considering the shock caused by what RD had done, Fluttershy just might show her angry side when she finally awoke. I found it to be a way to keep Fluttershy from being overly submissive. As shown by the show, she can fight back at times. I think Dash's shocking near-suicide and the subsequent coma would be more than enough to bring out Fluttershy's 'fight' side, rather than 'flight'. More than anything, the anger adds color to her character.

Addressing the emotional scarring (First_Down):
This happens in the sequel, Actually, i feel like a couple of your complaints are addressed in the sequel. might you give it a read?

literature dialogue versus Kid's TV dialogue:
I was going more for literature dialogue, as I often do. I do agree that there are places where it doesn't flow well.

Romance/Shipping:
I agree it does seem rather "bolt out of the blue". Again, I feel this problem could be solved with a prologue.

Descriptive writing:
Thank you all for the wonderful praise. Descriptive language is something that I REALLY strive to do well, and I'm glad it shows. I really like how you guys pulled out specific areas (First_Down's three examples and the "Limbo" scene) that you especially liked, because it shows me what I'm doing well!

I do hope I've addressed everything. If you have any further concerns, PLEASE feel free to reply to this and engage me!

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Well, first off thank you for replying! It was impressive to see you go through all that text and talk about each point raised. I always enjoy hearing artists talk about their work. Anyway, you asked for engagement at the end and I can supply that.

<<Looking back on my work, I really feel that it could have done with a prologue.>>
Would you have given the death of Dash’s parents more elaboration with a longer setup, like you would for Applejack and RD’s feelings for each other, or was that something you felt was addressed appropriately in the story? I ask because that was one thread I felt should have impacted with me and it didn’t. Dash suffers a traumatic childhood event and it gets the ball rolling for future issues with failure. However… I never fully understood why she felt she failed in that instance. She was a) a filly, b) out of the house when it happened and c) way too late to do anything once she saw the fire. Survivor’s guilt is a real affliction, but usually that occurs when the survivor suffers through the same circumstance as those that perished. Dash was never in the fire. I kinda wonder if maybe she should have been home but wasn’t. And so those guilty feelings of failure stem from a “I could have saved them had I been where I should have been” line of thought. I’m just speculating though.

<<I'm sorry if some can't accept that (First_Down, I'm so sorry you didn't like it!), but that's the nature of the beast, I suppose...>>
Nothing to be sorry over. You didn’t write this fic months ago just for my entertainment and as far as I’m aware you don’t owe me anything. I will give you honest feedback because to do less would be disrespectful to you, but I am not some grand adjudicator with infallible laws about what is and isn’t good writing or art. I’m an old man with an opinion. You got your story featured on EQD. A quick browse through the story’s comments shows dozens of people praising it. It’s well written and generally well liked. No apologies are necessary.

<<And, just for the record, I'll provide my own interpretation, what was going through my head as I wrote it:>>
Thank you for the commentary. The second chapter was my favorite one to read, so hearing different interpretations of the limbo scene, especially the author’s, is a lot of fun. I do have a question though. When the shades fully materialize from the blood waters, you described in detail the hole in their chests where their hearts would be. I’m wondering what you intended the metaphor to be with that image. Was this to further bring home the message that they were dead things? Was it to further screw with Dash into having her believe that the emotions the shades claimed to represent were lifeless and hopeless inside her? Was it something else?

<<If I could write it again, I might have tried something different.>>
I speculated on giving the lines to a different character. Looking back, could that have worked or did it need to be Rarity due to her own tragic past, which thereby gives her and Dash something to connect with?

<<AJ was always supposed to be Rainbow Dash's rock in this story. Nothing more.>>
Yeah, my first impression of her character was unfair because I kept expecting something to happen. On a second read-through I had no issues with it.

<<Actually, i feel like a couple of your complaints are addressed in the sequel. might you give it a read?>>
Definitely. I was planning on reading it before you even asked. A couple posters here mentioned they liked your sequel even better. Only thing I can’t promise is expedience. Might be a few weeks before I get to it.

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1. Yeah, if I was going to write a prologue, I would certainly elaborate more on the childhood event. And yes, I think guilt from “I could have saved them had I been where I should have been” suits that situation perfectly. Again, it probably needs more elaboration.

2. Well good! Glad to hear it!

3. Yeah, as I said, chapter 2 was my favorite too. I just love, as a writer, playing around with fantastic dream-spaces. It just gives so much room for the imagination to play with.

4. I don't feel giving the lines to a different character would work. I feel like Pinkie, Twilight, and AJ would all act rather subdued in that situation. Rarity, I felt, Rarity, I felt, was the only one emotionally unbalanced enough (especially due to my then-head-canon of her dead parents) to react abrasively to the situation.

5. Great!

6. Thanks much! Hope you enjoy it!

just throwing it out there, a new fic might be incoming soon

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huzzah!

Looks like i have to bump this thread. so when is the next AppleDash fanfic club?

Oh hey, this still exists!
I'd love to see another fic in here

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Those Blue Wings? Maybe we can finally trim that ego of yours down to size.

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Bring iiiit!

In all honest, I know it's by far the weakest of my works. I'd probably do a lot different if I had to completely rewrite it from the ground up (vs chapter revisions I did). Would love to see commentary on it!

(and then go cry in a corner, but, yeah! )

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We already had a fic in mind but it kinda slipped our notice. I'm not good with words and bookplayer is kinda busy all the time

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I could probably pick it up, if we set the discussion date late enough. Like, beginning of March maybe.

The fic we were thinking about doing is Pillow Thoughts by Will P Sherman. But I'd also be willing to do Those Blue Wings. Anyone got a preference?

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I'd argue for Pillow thoughts, as it's only 24k words. Asking to read a 60k+ one may be a bit much XD

(though I'd love to see it chosen, but pillow thoughts gets my vote)

I don't have a personal preference since I already promised Tchernobog a long review of "Those Blue Wings" anyway. But if shorter stories are more manageable and inclusive then perhaps "Pillow Thoughts" would be best. Whatever's picked, I'll be sure to scare you all away with massive walls of text.