So, I've been drafting up a little, well, background story so to speak, for the Winningverse, when I came across a tiny problem.
Mind magic.

Okay, it's undoubtedly evel and unicorns are forbidden to use it. The EIS, as established in the Vreeport Venture, doesn't use it either, even their warlock hunters don't. So how does that affect reformation spells?

What is a reformation spell, in the winningverse, where Strumming Heartstrings threatened Sunset Shimmer to use one on her? Is it meant to dissuade a criminal from indulging in acts against the law? So that's technically mind magic, right?
Is using a reformation spell even a viable option when dealing with criminals?

How do you think they work, that makes them acceptable?

I view mind magic as being a medical technique. You DON'T want any homebody hobjob performing heart surgery, but at the same time heart surgeons are the most respected people around.

If strictly talking about a positive reformation, it sounds like the spellcaster is either locking away or purifying the darker impulses of the subject (we'll call him Jack for simplicity), thus rendering Jack a more benevolent being with little to no risk of becoming a miscreant once again. But that's like playing God and stripping away Jack's free will, giving him no choice but to commit good deeds until his expiration date.

Again, that's the impression I'm under. But to be honest, I don't believe such a spell exists: it's a scare tactic, if a cheap one. Even if Jack were to have his dark impulses manipulated with for the better, traces still remain, as does the temptation to act upon those impulses. Such things never truly go away, only lie in wait to re-emerge and take hold once again. T'is the way of the mortal heart, equine or human.

4864882 watch Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange. Thats generally how I imagined a reformation spell would work, and simultaneously demonstrates the practical and ethical problems inherent in such a spell.

4864882 It's obviously mind magic. Why is that a problem? Twilight uses mind magic several other times in the show, so it's not like she'd shy away from it because of that.

It's actually a more evil form of mind magic than normal charm and memory spells since it's intended to warp a pony's personality. That doesn't mean the authorities wouldn't use it on convicted criminals, since all punishment involves violating the criminal's rights in various ways.

4864940 I suppose that's one way of getting Jack to put down the shotgun. And the hunting rifle. And the revolver. And the billions of other weapons in his magical backpack.

But yeah, good answer!

For some reason that reminds me Babylon 5 concept of "Personality's Death", when a criminal is found so dangerous that it's impossible to reintegrate it to society and is worth to receive the equivalent of "Death Penalty". They instead wipe their personality completely, leaving no traces of anything remotely of the person that was. before. Then the remaining being is put to service in convents, social service or any other place where they can repay society without risks.

I think a reformation spell would be similar to a personality's death. I don't know if they can selectively keep learned skills and knowledge. It would make sense they could but also it would be risk.

The reformation spell is probably closely regulated and a case-by-case examination must be done by some party (princesses, mage council, etc.) to see if it is even worth it, let alone necessary. Otherwise, what's to stop every murderer, rapist, warlock, or villain from getting Clockwork Oranged?

4865215 Ah, now that was insightful! Don't quite know why I didn't think of the council thing myself, it makes perfect sense!

I have two thoughts: first, I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong about reformation spells for criminals; keep in mind that one of the goals of the justice system is to prevent the criminal from re-offending, but in recent years, and as we study the issue more, it appears that, in many cases, the goal of the justice system should be to try and reform the criminals in its care, rather than provide a sort of deterrent. In this sense, then, the only thing truly different in the case of the reformation spell is that it can happen in far less of a timespan, and the reformation is more likely to work and stick--but it isn't any different than other forms of reformation or rehabilitation or what have you. At least not in its goals.

Secondly: a lot of the magic in the universe appears to be inspired (cough) heavily on the Dresdenverse, where using Dark Magic quite literally corrupts the soul. While this isn't the case on the Winningverse, (I think Sunset basically says they're taught that it's corrupting but it's more that the power you get from the dark magic that's addictive), its possible that the only way to really resolve the problem of a Warlock would be to kill them, because they're never going to 'become good' again and far too likely to relapse. Or use magic to reform them.

Its interesting to think that, despite the 'Laws of Magic', I think the use of reformation spells and mental magic (which is 'illegal') tends to imply that 'dark' magic is used relatively commonly for peaceful practices. One could imagine, for example, necromancy being used to keep a severely injured pony from passing on, and giving the doctors time to work, for example.

4864882 I have several ideas. All the best ones are questionable.

I imagine a spell that does nothing more than give the subject the re-occurring thought that maybe what they're doing is wrong. At any moment, when they don't suspect or are feeling insecure, it will pop into their mind like a catchy tune that get's stuck in your head.

Then there's the strong and direct approach, the magical equivalent of a shock collar. Simple and effective. It wouldn't truly force you to change who you are, but it will keep you from hurting others and reward you for helping. It wouldn't necessarily brain-wash them, but it would be very likely that the reformee would end up brain-washed. Surprisingly, this one intrudes the least on free will.

Overall, what these blokes are saying is definitely something you'd need to consider. 4865215 4864904
Even then, I'd say it's too extreme.

4864882
Mmm... I'd imagine a reformation spell isn't so much a deterrent as it is a reminder that a pony can and does want to change. I'd also imagine its less about control as it is dampening impulse, like they do with receptor blockers for drug addicts, or are trying to do. It doesn't control. per say, but it does influence. And probably comes with one hell of a master at the end of ones choke collar

4865215
Pretty much this. It's mind magic that's been legally authorized and is tightly regulated. The usual process involves a panel of magi and psychologists who come up with a plan to remove/block any evil/dangerous parts of the personality while limiting collateral damage to the rest of the personality as much as can be practically done.

4866272
what...wait, what? That's... terrible. That's really terrible awful idea there Chen.

You cannot alter what a persons thinks without altering their ability to think, and the same applies to personality. Better off just killing the poor fucker.

4866357 Hence why they don't do it very often and the threat of it was able to keep Discord toeing the line rather than firing himself out of a cannon across it. Besides, they already send criminals to literally hell (Tartarus). I'd say they have different priorities on what constitutes as fair punishment. Also, altering how people think is the very basis of how the criminally insane (which most warlocks are considered) are treated here; only we use drugs, electricity, chemicals, and therapy instead of magic.

4866453
No. A warlock is not the same, in any situation, as a person with a personality Disorder or mental defect or defiecency. Sunbeam is not the same as Bright. One made a conscious decision to do evil, the other is physically incapable to discern right from wrong. One should be helped, or at worst incarcerated, at best stripped of rank and if neccessary her child, the other needs a bullet to the head.

Also, I think Flutters had a bit more to do with it then that, but really the whole thought of reforming Discord was overall a bridge to the ass end of nowhere.

And how is this any different then what the Apple Of Eden, Warlocks, or to the watered down version, Glimmer do? Because a panel decides its okay? Bull. Again, if they can be helped by suppressant magic or therapy fine, because those things at least allow the individual the right to choose to change. This strips them of that choice, and is an EVIL act no matter who does it

4866453
Yeah, reform spells are generally for fixing ponies who have something wrong in their head that pushes them towards crime, such as somepony with serious anger management issue caused by a terrible childhood. And of course, reform spells wouldn't be used lightly. You don't go mucking around inside someone's head unless less invasive measures wouldn't work. Like you said, it's somewhat akin to involuntary commitment to an asylum where the person is kept under heavy medication.

For me working something like this would be something akin to the Starwars mind trick. If the user is outright altering someone or destroying their personality it's clearly darkside, but for subtle suggestions such as rethinking a decision even a lifestyle decision and leaving it to the one effected by the spell then it is a lot less sinister.

So like any tool it is how it is used/applied that makes the act of using it good/evil (Or any in between). That said unless the target of the spell asks for it to be applied (no duress/ stable state of mind while asking) it is still a unwholesome task. The use of it would still devalue choice and freedom and would be a stain on the casters morality, so for those characters seeking to be a paragon of good or at least a good guy it would/should be a last resort.

One of my favourite looks at the reform spell, among other things, actually comes from the MLP Analysis community's Silver Quill over on YouTube, when he took a look at Magical Ethics.
(If you're interested ONLY in the reform spell, then 5:52, 7:01 and 7:43 are pretty good spots to jump to, but it'll seem more coherent if watched all the way through.)

He also brings up a similar point to 4867806, as well as covering a broader topic.

4869045
Indeed that would be the moral and ethical thing to do. But when has that mattered in this verse?

4869587 Fair point.

4867806
Pretty much this. I see reform spells as something intended to be a more "humane" alternative to lifetime imprisonment (or being turned into a statue). Given that I doubt a reform spell would be used unless the target was a legitimate threat to others and had committed crimes to merit such treatment.

4865148
I admit, I'm also tempted by that parallel too. Mostly because I really liked that episode.

4873184
... I stand in awe of the ponies of your verse, good Chengar. Truly, one can only applaud with a look of absolute loathing at creatures who have made death, the ultimate sin, the one thing one can never undo or repent for and the ultimate last resort, being the more merciful of an action.

Think about it: at the point your writing about, by that point... the person in question has already done the unthinkable in one form or another. They've proven themselves to be completely unsuited to be amongst other, and even with this "reform", this doesn't absolve them of responsibility, so they'd have to live in hiding or in asylum lest they fall "afoul" of rightfully angry relatives or people not willing to take the chance they relapse.

4873203 Well, it's like you said. "Death is the ultimate last resort", the choice when you truly have no other options. But now, with enforced reformation spells, you do have other options.

And really, having your mind rewritten, isn't that in a way a form of death? Of execution? Except instead of wasting and destroying a life, you sacrifice it and forge another one anew, one that can be good (and hopefully make other ponies happy even). It doesn't absolve them of the crime because it is no longer their crime to begin with. They are now a different person (quite literally).
They share a face and nothing more.
From a more sociopathic (which, I feel I need to remind you, does not necessarily mean evil) point of view, life is a rare commodity and one you cannot create quickly. Why waste it? If you were going to "kill the bastard" anyway (because they refuse to change when you give them the "right to choose"), that means you're depriving them of the right to decide what happens to themselves. The subject no longer has any rights. You are forcing them to stop living—to stop being, despite the most likely fact they don't want to stop living—to continue to be.
So pardon me if I fail to see how "executing someone" is less merciful than "forcefully rewriting their minds". At most, it's equally merciless/ful.
And I will emphasize that the point is that, through such a method, you make them suited to be amongst others. Saying they've proven themselves to be completely unsuited to be amongst others is completely missing the point of this discussion.

And your offered situation is very much society and culturally dependent. In Equestria, where you cannot question they are almost excessively forgiving, the likelihood of someone seeking lethal vengeance is very low. This ain't Freeport, after all.
And really, the chances of you deciding to drop them back in the same place (and with the same name) you found them is also very unlikely. Though they may not have to fear for their life, like you say it can still be greatly... inconvenienced by people who may resent you. And anyone who would burn down Equestria looking for you for revenge probably would fall under the same criminal jurisdiction as the one they hunt. Tragic case of becoming a monster to fight a monster (that no longer exists).

And to address one of your earlier queries of how "someone who made a conscious choice should be helped while the one who can't even see their own wrong should take a bullet to the head" (assuming I understood you correctly). An inability to perceive a wrong is a nonstandard state of the mind (some would call it a defect). Draw your attention to this situation then. Someone is born with a defective limb. Should you just let them struggle to walk? Or should you give them a new bionic leg that will let them walk like a normal person? You "fixed" them. By the same token, someone with a defective part of the mind, should you not fix that either?

Really, it's functional on a societal level, and any further debate would just become a matter of dogmatic values. "Life is precious" "Death penalties are wrong" "The mind is sacred and should not be tampered with" "You should not change yourself for others".

4873184
All that said, I will admit to a certain curiosity to what kind of crime would merit a reformation spell? The fact such a rule exists indicates there's a precedence, a historic event where such a sentence was laid down. Just how severe a crime or demonstration of societally dangerous mental defect is required?
Presumably, it is exceedingly rare, and something Celestia does not favour, given she preferred to have a therapeutic and... organic (I guess would be the word) reformation rather than a magical, artificial and enforced reformation on Discord. Of course, that particular case may be more due to the dangers of trying to access that particular mind.
And a royal disfavour tends to make such a decision a very unpopular one. Most likely, its presence as an actual law or penalty is more symbolic than practical.
My take on the popularity and frequency of such a decision anyway.

An another thought this discussion brings up. The existence of a reformation spells would either lead to the existence of thoughtcrimes or would create a much more stringent law and penalty on mind magic (namely the reading of it). It would become too easy to see the thought (or even the process thereof) of another person, deem something wrong with it (i.e. "How could you possibly believe such a philosophy or belief is correct? Clearly there's something wrong with your head." or "Why the heck are you racist? Something's wrong with you.") As Strumming had said, it really does become a slippery slope.

4876124
Very good points. And one supposes the have merit, but I would like to rebut a few things, if you'll give me a moment.

- A bionic limb is not the same situation. As mentioned in a previous statement, if reformation were more like a supressant or blocking agent, coupled with a strict watchdog. That's putting a dog on a short leash, and they have to prove themselves willing to change and allow their minds and personalities searched beforehand... hoof. Whatever. Also... this statement made me think of a pony Kimble being hounded ceaselessly by a pony Gerard (I didn't kill her! it was the three, sometimes four, legged stallion!)

- SociopathIc thoughts and mentalities not being evil... right right. Perhaps, but its all to easy for them to be, is it not? If killing one foal isn't too much, a thousands not many. And even if they haven't killed anyone, manipulation and inability to recognize themselves as made of no more noble clay then "lesser" is of course not evil. So you're suggesting here that the only thing that should be able to stop, oh, lets take some random oc... say the Archmagus of not any particular court, from declaring "A god am I" is his or her associates ability to pummel into submission, and of course nothing wrong with reducing other people, being of course lesser then such ubermensch, down to things to be used, and when useful no more, to be discarded. Such as, say, taking a protege and shaping them into a means of satisfying ones own loneliness and ones own sins under the guise of the greater good.

Because of course that's how we all are, deep down inside, right?

- Again, by this point as proposed, the person has already done something so heinous and reprehensible they've given the right to live. And really, as long as Society has need of such a creature... really? And once you cut away those parts that make them dangerous, how will they be useful anymore?

What rankles me, now that I think about it, is that the ponies, and by extension Chengar, seem to not think of this as an evil equal, if not greater then, execution. That somehow their own souls are unblemished and hooves clean of blood because... what? They've managed to make another cog in Order's machine? That somehow their actions are not as bad? And this ponies victims lives are less important then the bummer vibes of killing off vermin?

4876124
Also...

Presumably, it is exceedingly rare, and something Celestia does not favour, given she preferred to have a therapeutic and... organic (I guess would be the word) reformation rather than a magical, artificial and enforced reformation on Discord

She does it because partly out of morals, but also because of romanticism. Its not merely a desire for second chances, but because everyone has good in them, just need to be brought out, and she'd rather it was sincere and coming from the person then forced by someone else.

Of course, this romanticism also allowed her to get on a high horse and not wipe out a immediate and encroaching threat ("a society based in harmony cannot be responsible for genocide." paraphrase.)

4876124
Yeah, part of why reformation spells (and mind magic in general) would be so tightly regulated is because it would be far too easy to start abusing it with good intentions. Once you start dictating what the right and wrong ways to think are, you're standing at the top of a slippery slope. That's also part of why I liked the idea of reformation spells being discussed by a committee, so it's not just a single pony with no oversight. Granted, you'd probably also need oversight on the committee to make sure they don't go on a groupthink power trip...

As for what crimes would merit the spell, I'm hard-pressed to imagine anything less than the most severe felonies and/or a mental defect that makes them an extreme threat to themselves and others. For a rough real-world analogue, the sorts of crimes/conditions that would lead to someone spending most of their life in a prison/asylum. Given Celestia's morals, I'd probably say the spell's also restricted to those cases where more conventional therapy has proven ineffective. And given that Equestria generally seems pretty idyllic and forgiving, it doesn't seem like something that would come up too often.

4876401

What rankles me, now that I think about it, is that the ponies, and by extension Chengar, seem to not think of this as an evil equal, if not greater then, execution.

I would be very careful with that statement. The mark of a good writer is when you're capable of writing something that does not necessarily reflect your own thoughts.
And again, that boils down to fundamental values. If you live in a society where life is the most valuable thing, execution is far more evil than forcefully reforming them because they're at least physically still alive. And when I say society here, I mean the general people, the general opinion. Is it so evil to think that having someone killed is the worst thing you could do?

Also, you don't "cut away" part of the mind, you reforge it, rebuild it. They won't be braindead, they'll just be different people. This is reformation, not lobotomy.

As for your remark on sociopathy, you're making a lot of assumptions that are simply not necessarily true. Sociopaths are not people "who cannot see themselves as wrong". They simply lack the automatic empathy one would usually have with another person. But they are still capable of growing attached to people, much like how some may like their pets or grow attached to a particular object.
An oversimple way of stating things is "sociopaths are people who do not automatically see others as like someone of their own race on an emotional level". So, in a way, sociopathy is no more evil than you not caring for the log you burn to keep yourself warm on a cold winter night.
Your example has little to do with sociopathy, or rather, that scenario depends on more than mere sociopathy to occur. More a case of megalomania, deceitfulness, and typical politics.

I'm getting the impression you're making a lot of assumptions on sociopathy (and most any subjects really, if I'm to be honest) that are simply not true, or at best circumstantial. Of course, it may also be that whatever you're trying to say is just not coming across properly.

What rankles me, now that I think about it, is that the ponies, and by extension Chengar, seem to not think of this as an evil equal, if not greater then, execution. That somehow their own souls are unblemished and hooves clean of blood because... what? They've managed to make another cog in Order's machine? That somehow their actions are not as bad? And this ponies victims lives are less important then the bummer vibes of killing off vermin?

No one ever said it was an "easy and of-course-you-should" thing to do. Again, assumption on your part.
But think about it this way then. By not doing anything to a dangerous felon, by just letting them go when you have the chance to stop them. Are you not in any way responsible for those he harms after? Did you not, in some way, also kill his victims? And for what? For some sense of cleanliness? How you didn't dirty your own hands/hooves with his blood, so that you could retain some sense of purity?
Bystanders who do nothing when they could have done something are not innocent people.
And once you do act, let's take your premise of "sinning" to end the danger of that felon. Does it really matter how? The only one that "suffered" in any way for your actions is the felon, after all. And really, if they died, or if they've been reformed, they don't really suffer for it afterwards. So it's definitely nowhere near as bad as torturing them to death (where it's just needlessly messy).

Like I said, at this point, it becomes only a question of "Which is more valuable? The Life or The Mind?" You clearly believe the mind (or the soul as it were, judging by your choices of words) is most valuable. Fine. It just becomes a flaw for you in the Winningverse's Equestria.

4876635

it would be far too easy to start abusing it with good intentions.

Sounds like the premise of an interesting story exploring such moralities.
>Starts thinking of ideas.

I would personally hesitate to use prison-sentences for real world analogues, tragically. But the point is taken.

Which then reminds me, another scenario to watch out for (which depends on just how high 'serious crime' rates are). One has to be careful about starting to use this as a "quick" solution to make sure the system that takes care of felons are not overwhelmed by sheer volume. If not everyone will have access to proper psychotherapy (in that, proper time is invested, rather than having one beleaguered therapist trying to keep up with too many patients). Then the morality question becomes: What do you do then? Conventional therapy will become ineffective in that kind of situation, simply because one cannot provide it.
Of course, all of that assumes that it may be an issue at all. If crime rates are so low such a system would never be overwhelmed, then all the better for them.

4879970
I think you hit the nail on the head with the low crime rates. Equestria can afford to invest a lot more time/effort/resources into reforming individual criminals because serious crime is rare, especially since Equestria in general seems pretty forgiving as long as the pony makes amends and shows genuine remorse for any criminal acts. Basically, the Equestrian legal system seems to focus almost entirely on reform rather than punishment. Even Discord can be forgiven so long as they believe he really could change his ways and learn from his mistakes.