Hello...

As all of you (members of this group) know, Celestia gets A LOT of hate and insults.
And the thing is, that it really depresses me...

I love Celestia as a character. She's my favourite pony.

But hearing time and time again how "weak", "stupid" and "useless" she supposedly is, hurts me.
It feels like a knife to my stomach, everytime I hear or read such things.
And the worst part: It seeds irrational doubt into my mind. Doubt about Celestia!
I don't want this!

So I kindly ask in this group of people who like Celestia:

Please tell me good things about her.
Please tell me counter arguments towards the haters.
Please tell me she is not weak or stupid or useless.

It would mean a lot to me!

6786669 Have you checked out the group Protect Celestia? It's all about fics that show her in a positive light.

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After Twilight, Celestia is tagged more often than any other character on Fimfiction, at times even exceeding her in terms of the number of stories in which she is featured.

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Well, thing is, I kinda like it when she's portrayed with some flaws and weaknesses. Sure, she's exceptionally wise, kind, powerful and experienced, but it's nice to get a few reminders that she also has her struggles and doubts. She would be pretty boring if she didn't. The important thing is that those shortcomings aren't what defines her.

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"Strong", "Brilliant", and "Useful" rulers are a dime a dozen. They're called tyrants. What they lack is decency, respect for others, and the ability to receive criticism. Lot of rulers are happy to accept praise, but Celestia could accept doubt and reflect upon her shortcomings rather than explaining them away or brushing them under the carpet. There are a multitude of advisors, ministers, and champions that can help shore up a leader who lacks strength or skills, but no one can save a leader from their moral failings. Celestia is a good ruler because she is a good pony, not because she she matches a checklist of technical qualifications.

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Always remember that, despite the negative press she's supposedly gotten, Celestia has still overseen a happy and successful society for over fifty generations!

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She has the prettiest mane.

Immortal, Powerful, Benevolent, Wise, Majestic. Is that enough for you or shall I dip into stronger, less canon-supportive material?

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I'm not going to sit here and say that the terms used aren't justified but it's not due to the character's fault of her own more down tot he way that she's been written from the later seasons onward. At the beginning of the show we had a mysterious figure that towered over the others and was perceived as a powerful goddess figure that radiated. Now every other day she's taken down by the villain of the week to lazily establish them as the new hot shit. Thus we get depictions of Celestia that ARE in fact weak, unintelligent and dull to watch in the modern show. We have a new Alicorn every season now it seems too, so that doesn't make her special now either.

But you shouldn't care about what other folk say about the character you like or enjoy, you shouldn't care about other folk's interpretations. YOU like them, and clearly other folk do as well, so think to yourself WHY do you like that character?

Personally I like the original intent behind the character, she was regal, dutiful, and wise but had an impish nature that would come out every now and again. She commanded the respect of those around her and you felt like she earned it in those early seasons. She understood a bigger picture and thought well ahead but she wasn't so above it all that she couldn't enjoy a good joke. She was not a unique character, but, early on, she had a mystery to her and a history we could only guess at. We knew she had to seal her sister away at some point and that she was once powerful enough to take on an entity like Discord and you kinda got the impression that that might have been the norm in her past.

Today's Celestia has had a lot of the mystery and respect drained out of her for cheap jokes and lazy antagonist establishment, but there's still something there that we all loved at least at one point. if other people don't like her, they aren't wrong, but you're not wrong for liking her either. It's your opinion and nobody can really take that away from you if you don't let them.

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We have a new Alicorn every season now

Three new Alicorns in 9 seasons...

6786669
As the others have said, and a reason I started this group. It was far, far worse 7 years ago with a new tyrantlestia fic every hour. We've seen her at her best and worst, and still knows that she is a good and honorable pony that has done her best to lead Equestria by herself.

Really the problem with Celestia is that the show staff seemed to have almost no idea what to do with her past the first season. From the history of the show we know she kept things together for at least 1k years solo, but that's kinda it. As the series went on we kept getting more and more of the back story that ended up pushing her further and further into the background. Like the show almost resented having her there.

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Paladin is 100% correct. I came into the fandom during the days the New Lunar Republic was picking up massive steam back in season one. They were a huge multitude, a hategroup dedicated to shitting on Celestia while praising little woobie Luna before she got some of her swagger back. "Celestia is a tyrant." "Celestia was jealous and hurt her little sister." "Celestia keeps Luna locked up in the castle and abuses her." All day. EVERY day. And if I ever spoke up in Celestia's defense I was immediately ganged up on by anywhere between two to over a dozen people at a time. With even more in the wings supporting the ones who had the "balls" to step up with overwhelming numbers.

The amount of stories and art of Celestia being some vile and twisted entity who hated Luna, and Luna being some tragic heroine or victim... or both, were stifling. All the noise and numbers were with the NLR, so that's where all the creatives went to pander in order to get themselves seen and praised. The worst part is they weren't even like... roleplaying, or just joking around. They legitimately convinced themselves the character was a monster.

Celestia, whom we later learned was the Bearer of Magic, Generosity, and Kindness. A monster who abuses her little sister for kicks and is too fat and lazy to protect her country so sends Twilight around to do it for her, while the NLR members spent their days laughing at the few of us who tried to counter any such notions or present better, more healthy alternatives and understandings. The constant shame and anger soured me fairly heavily on anyone flying the NLR colors.

But you know what? Screw the haters and bandwagoneers. Give me a kind and motherly Celestia, experienced and wise, benevolent and graceful. Give me a reasonable Celestia, who doesn't go overboard over every little thing, doesn't needlessly meddle for fun. Give me a practical Celestia, who can shine for her little ponies while she gets her hooves dirty and sacrifices her peace of mind to ensure that they'll get to have a future. Give me a Chessmaster Godlestia, who out-schemes her enemies long before they realize they're going to come into conflict with her - and barring that, will show them who protected Equestria for a thousand years as the sole alicorn with no Elements of Harmony. Give me the charismatic Celestia who can take unexpected results in stride and serenely navigate troubled waters, working hard for her people and never letting them see her sweat so they can rest comfortably knowing they're safe.

Give me the Dawnmother Incandescent.

Ave Sol Invictus.

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The show really does resent her for being there. Mentors are supposed to die. Beings of light are supposed to go away once the being of darkness has been dealt with. Rulers are supposed to be weak or evil. Deities are supposed to be distant, uncaring, or wrapped up in heavenly red tape. All those tropes exist so that the balance between victory and defeat is held by the protagonist.

Having a highly effective Celestia around limits the stakes of the adventures that the heroes can go on. Any threat above a certain threshold will naturally draw her presence and end the decisive role of the protagonists. They can only assist her in auxiliary roles.

Granted, there's nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly legitimate to have a show about characters who aren't the most powerful and important people around. Their lives and decisions still matter and have consequences. But most writers would rather write about the hero who vanquishes the darkness and not the guys who kept the mooks off his back while he did so.

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I'm pretty sure they already know, since this is the Protect Celestia forum.
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I strongly disagree. I've never felt like Celly has had any respect drained from her.
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Celly's never been confirmed to be immortal, so you're already kinda dipping into non-canon.

Anyway, I'd also check out JoshScorcher on YouTube. He's done a lot of Celestia defending. He's on Fimfiction too.

6787989 oh God I thought this was Writer's Block.

I'm so embarrassed

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There are a few ways to have Celestia still be powerful and useful but not actually do anything. Like have the solution the characters go for is telling her but then they can't manage to get in contact and have to resolve it them selves. They also could have Celestia busy with other things when bad stuff goes down, like hint that she was dealing with something bigger and more dangerous. I've always wanted to see little back ground hints that while the mane6 were dealing with something like Discord of Crysalis, Celestia was killing Cthulu or something.

Another show that actually used ruling characters well is Adventure Time. Princess Bubblegum's people might be incompetent but she is still a loving ruler who wants the best for them, even when they sometimes worship her as a god.

Kind, considerate, understanding, but mostly I would say teacher

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it's curious to see you getting gang downvoted for saying that the staff started to portray Celestia as useless after the first seasons. This was a popular opinion in this group not so long time ago.
I mean, "opinion", Celestia is portrayed as week and incompetent. That's like, right there, unless in the last seasons that was changed and now she is competent again. I dunno.

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We're on a writing site and it's like nobody understands the meaning of hyperbole anymore.

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I dunno why the downvoting either, aside from folk not really getting that I am speaking fondly of the character DESPITE the problems she's been having.
I think most of what I said is relatively accurate and fair. The character has not been written as strongly as she deserves to be and is often brushed aside so that the villain can seem stronger. But there's nothing wrong with liking her despite this.

6787989
Fine, you can feel that way. Literally the entire post I made was nobody can take away what you feel for her. On screen though, I'm merely saying she's not getting what she originally deserved.

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Thanks to all of you for your replies.
I don't see Celestia as useless, but I just needed some reassuring words.

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It's reassuring to hear you think that way.

I don't have a problem with her having flaws. For example, I love how she is a terrible actress. It's very cute.

But there are many people out there, who take incidents like the defeat by Chrysalis, and practically say "See? Celestia is totally weak! Even a Breezy could defeat her!"
I try to ignore rubbish like that and to avoid reading such stuff. But sadly, I still often stumble on these remarks, even though I don't want to.

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Oh yes, I totally agree with that. The best parts of her are her heart, her personality and her integrity.

What hurts me, is when people use her flaws (and bad writing) as reasons for calling her a complete failure. That she is "too dumb to live", that she is totally incompetent and that she is so weak, that even a foal could defeat her in battle.

She isn't perfect, and she should not be.
But "weak", "stupid" and "useless"? That is not what I see.

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Yes, your right!

Thank you for reminding me of that.

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Thanks!
That IS what I think of her, too. And it's very reassuring to hear it from someone else.

And if it isn't too much trouble: Yes, please dip into the stronger, less canon-supportive material
I I'm curious about it!

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Don't worry! It's no problem

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Thanks for your post!

I know that nobody can tell me not to like her, but it is mostly an emotional thing and hearing people shitting on hear time and time again hurts me.
I opened this thread to read some reassuring words, to put my mind at ease. I cannot control my feelings very well, and from time to time I need reminders to strengthen my mind against irrational notions.

Like I said, I'm thankful for your post and for you speaking fondly of her.
But I think it's clear why you got so many downvotes:
Yes, Celestia deserveres better than how she is handled some times. But exagerating and saying that the terms "weak, "stupid" and "useless" are justified is exactly the problem here. (If I understood the first sentence of your post correctly, that is)

I have never seen her that way. Even with the writing flaws taken into consideration, it makes no sense at all to call her "useless" and worse.
I don't see any justification for that.

But that's just my opinion and you have yours.

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Sparx
I strongly disagree. I've never felt like Celly has had any respect drained from her.

And I do strongly agree with you!
Celestia deserveres better than how she is handled some times. But exagerating and saying, that the terms "weak, "stupid" and "useless" are justified, makes no sense to me.

And thanks for recommending JoshScorcher to me. He made an entire story about that!

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"Opinion" indeed!

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But you know what? Screw the haters and bandwagoneers. Give me a kind and motherly Celestia, experienced and wise, benevolent and graceful. Give me a reasonable Celestia, who doesn't go overboard over every little thing, doesn't needlessly meddle for fun. Give me a practical Celestia, who can shine for her little ponies while she gets her hooves dirty and sacrifices her peace of mind to ensure that they'll get to have a future. Give me a Chessmaster Godlestia, who out-schemes her enemies long before they realize they're going to come into conflict with her - and barring that, will show them who protected Equestria for a thousand years as the sole alicorn with no Elements of Harmony. Give me the charismatic Celestia who can take unexpected results in stride and serenely navigate troubled waters, working hard for her people and never letting them see her sweat so they can rest comfortably knowing they're safe.

Thank you! Thank you VERY much!
Reading such words is balm for my soul and reassuring.
Mostly because I'm reminded that I'm not the only one who thinks that way.

And yes: Ave Sol Invictus!

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Yeah the thing about that Luna would have her butt handed to her by Chrysalis. If that happen the Luna fan would had a fit. People forget that Luna and Celestia have to same amount of power so if Celestia couldn't handle Luna couldn't have handled it either.

It always bothered me how they handled Celestia's reaction to Twilight's claiming that disguised Chrysalis was impersonating Cadance. Really? Not even gonna investigate the claim of your logical, heroic student who saved your country and sister? That was a missed opportunity of teaching how you should be able to trust your teacher/parent/guardian with important fears or suspicions. Instead it looked like how did you rule successfully for 1,000 years when you won't even hear out a subordinate as loyal and competent as Twilight? Didn't you used to think Luna succumbing to darkness was impossible too?

Maybe they could have written an enemy 2nd in command with a regenerating army of mooks bogging the main six down in a losing battle of attrition, until Celestia and Luna show up blasting through a huge swath going:

Twilight, lead your friends onward. Luna and I will protect your advance.
We had been hoping to have the chance to repay you for all that you've done for us.
Good luck, my faithful student. And thank you all.
*Turns and looks at Luna. Smiles. Looks back to Twilight*
I could never thank you enough.

Then have the main 6 advance to the showdown with the Big Bad as we see Celestia & Luna charging up their horns/cracking knuckles while the 2nd in command and mook army reconstitute themselves. I wanted the Sisters to get their Big Damn Heroes moment. They were the previous guardians against evil, man. It would be an awesome sendoff to show everyone why they were the guardians.

She has ruled a thousand years and Equestria is in pretty good shape.

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Hey sorry if my comment hurted you anyway!

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Very well.

Divine, Invincible, Creative, Playful, Omnipotent.

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Definitely. Having her get bonked on the head to get her out of the picture every single time is pretty uncreative.

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Are you implying it's not opinion? Because it is opinion. I've never seen her portrayed as weak.

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Celestia is a beautiful, gentle, caring Princess who deserves only the best!

She just has a lot of work to do, and needs Twilight's help.

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I am not implying anything, I am explicitly stating that Celestia has been portrayed as weak.

You know, I always find it annoying when people just come up with a big "well I think everything you said is wrong". You could at least try to think where others are coming from.

There's is no arguing about anything here, we are literally talking about what's on screen, and Celestia, as everybody knows, as people used to complain in this very group. as people used to joke around everywhere else, has always been set up to fail.
That's not an opinion, that's just following a tv show.

The only difference between the first seasons and the later ones is that under Faust, she was still portrayed as scheming and always in control, unless an omnipotent trickster showed up, and even then CELESTIA still managed to be an active player that could still outsmart her opponent (as one could argue that she is the one who saved the day by sending all Twilight's letters back to her.).

Every.single.villain she comes across now defeats her in the silliest way possible, plunderseeds aside. Green goo is able to stop her magic. She has to resort to shooting lasers at clouds to delay a storm (do you remember when Luna could change the weather around her with just her emotions?). Her plans usually just cause trouble for everyone. etc etc.

(nice profile pic btw)

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Wow there's a lot of bs to unpack here, but I'll do my best to respond:

You know, I always find it annoying when people just come up with a big "well I think everything you said is wrong". You could at least try to think where others are coming from.

Why would you assume I didn't? Just because I don't agree doesn't mean I don't understand.

There's is no arguing about anything here, we are literally talking about what's on screen.

People only say that when they want to discourage dissent.

That's not an opinion, that's just following a tv show.

No, it is an opinion. It's your interpretation of what's on screen.

Every.single.villain she comes across now defeats her in the silliest way possible, plunderseeds aside.

The defeated part is objective, yes, but the silly part is not.

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But there are many people out there, who take incidents like the defeat by Chrysalis, and practically say "See? Celestia is totally weak! Even a Breezy could defeat her!"

Ah, you mean that one time Chrysalis was literally super-charged by the Power of Love, actually seemed a bit surprised she won so easily, and still made sure to explicitly attribute it to Shining's love-mojo just to make it extra sure everyone got the message?

As in, the whole point of that scene was to establish how dangerous Chrysalis was at that point (plus foreshadowing the solution to beating her) which if anything kinda emphasizes that Celestia isn't to be messed with - it was an impressive feat because Celestia is crazy strong. People who think that it demonstrated weakness on her part didn't just miss the point but actually got it backwards, and I don't think they really get how basic storytelling works.

Speaking of which, I personally loved that scene because it shows that while Celestia delegates a lot of villain fighting to Twilight because she has a country to run, she will absolutely try to beat you down herself if you actually show up in person and threatens her kingdom to her face.

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Wow there's a lot of bs to unpack here, but I'll do my best to respond:

Wow, you sure showed me, by throwing insults and basically just repeating yourself?

The defeated part is objective, yes, but the silly part is not.

The defeat part is objective

OK so, she is someone who is constantly getting defeated and My point is that she is portrayed as weak.
You agree that she is always defeated but somehow "completely disagree" that she is is portrayed as weak.
And to argue your point, you decided to focus on me defining the ways she gets defeated "silly".

Ok ok,
so about the silly part, let me describe what happened on screen:
Cadence was a changeling all along! Twilight points that out. 1000+ years old wise mentor completely ignores her most trusted(quoting) student who saved the world two times by that point (and brought her beloved sister back) and whose main trait is being smart, sends her away angrily, telling her how much she disappointed her (knowing full well that said student gets panic attacks at the mere idea of disappointing her) and then, when she finds out that she was wrong all along she decides to take matters into her hands by calling the guards by shooting a big laser at the problem, but gets blasted herself.
And how did Chrysalis manage to defeat her? Because "shining armor love is stronger than [she] thought" (quote). The love of a single pony was enough to defeat most powerful pony Celestia.

Silly enough for you?

I could even add a cherry at the top of this cake and add that, at the end of all this, Celestia came around proudly stating that the lesson here is "sometime what you need to do is trust your instincts!" (which is something Twilight did since episode one.) just to save face.

This is just one exemple, the first time she was portrayed as incompetent and/or weak.

I hope I don't have to describe the entire show just to make you see my point.

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Okay, you're clearly not interested in anything other than forcing your opinion on others and demeaning those who don't agree with you. This conversation is affecting my depression now, so we are done here.