Goodday everyone!

This thread is about Celestia and Luna and their nature.

There's plenty of fanfics dealing with this subject out there, but what is your opinion on the celestial sisters?

Are they honest to goodness Gods, with power over life, death and creation itself?

Are they perhaps demigods? Immortal and with powers untold, but still just creations of this universe who might believe in a higher power of their own? (According to Word of Faust they have parents, after all.)

Or finally, are they just ascended ponies, taking up an important role so that unicorns no longer have to work together to control the sun and moon?

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My own take on this lay somewhere along the first two alternatives. Likely either full out Gods, or at the very least demigods.

I enjoy the way Merely a Mare defines Luna and Celestia as so different from the ponies they created, yet in so many ways the same. Magic is defined by Their will and the way they've specified it to work.

There's still the case of the Elements of Harmony of course, not to mention Discord, both of which exhibit greater power than that of Luna and Celestia. Still, that just means there might be a whole pantheon of gods, most of which might have been "dealt with" over time in Equestrias chaotic past. It is interesting to speculate about, if nothing else.

The flags of the Pre-Deocratic royal ponies of the time of the first Hearth's Warming Eve clearly depict Celestia and Luna -- if this is accurate, and not just an honoring gesture on the part of the pageant-makers, the ponies "Long Before (their) Rule" knew and celebrated them. This suggests that the *idea* of Celestia and Luna have been around for much longer than they have been. Whether this means they are avatars of deities sent down to rule when the conventional royalty could not handle some given crisis (the first Discord war?) or are ascended ponies who have dressed up as archetypes is unclear. I prefer the former.

I imagine them as goddesses,their parent being gods in charge of the universe (creating,expanding and destroying parts as needed) itself while the siblings control the sun and the moon for the planet their in charge of.As some sort of coming of age ritual that last very long in mortal years but isnt anything long for immortal being.

Equestria itself is maybe just a country or maybe its the pony name of the whole planet, the challenge is that not all races accept the sisters as the rulers or gods.

I believe that there are other gods and being around(not just Equestria,but they can get there) that are older and more powerful then them.

NMM somehow defeated Celestia so i consider her/it a being older and more powerful then Luna/Celestia,she underestimated mortals so she lost in the end.

And Discord got defeated just because he didnt even consider that the elements could work.

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To be honest, I don't personally put much credit into that little play. Not for its "historical accuracy" at least.

We know for certain that the play is supposed to show events pre-dating Nightmare Moon, which means it is in excess of 1000 years old. The ratio of "factual content" after that much time could probably be set at 1%. Just look at the thanksgiving plays they have in the US, and that's only about 200 year old events, haha.

Of course, the only one who'd know for certain is Celestia, but I think she would downplay her own role in it. Possibly she listens to the historians as they speak their theories and nod politely, saying something to the effect of "That is a good theory", while never going further than that.

With me, I take Hearth Warming Eve with a grain of salt. At least with my timeline it's been over 2000 years since then, and with out own history we know that the truth will be distorted by the passage of time. Plus with the various wars that may have occurred the records may have been destroyed.

So with me the Sisters were born mortal (Celestia was born and Earth Pony, Luna was an Unicorn), and lived as mortals until Discord started to work overtly. And even after they ascended and became Alicorns, they still considered them selves mortal despite their powers. They can be killed but it would require a lot of power and probably have to take out the Sun and Moon to finish them off.

They are not gods in my universe, though their ascension was "overseen" by the Goddesses Epona and Gaea.

Two things to consider:
1) In the play, we never saw who raises the sun.
2) In the intro (S1E1), Celestia's magic is described as "Unicorn Powers"

This suggests to me that it's possible Celestia and Luna were around and had control over the sun and moon. Certainly, unicorns seem keen to claim Celestia as "theirs", regardless of where she came from.

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Well, they do specifically say "The unicorns demanded the same, in return for magically bringing forth day and night."

This heavily implies that it wasn't Celestia and Luna who did it.

Of course, that's probably just wishful thinking on the unicorns part, hehe.

I don't really think about this much, but I see them as divine, since they're two of a kind. Although my headcanon might get its shit ruined by the season finale (Y U INTRODUCE MORE ALICORNS).

I really ought to give this more thought before I write a first person Princess Celestia story, I guess...

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I think everyone's headcannon will be going screwy with Candice... Might be one of those bits of canon that may have to be ignored. Not quite sure how to work her into mine just yet. Sejr's Light, that will be a headache if she proves to be Celestia's daughter or something like that.

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I fully agree with you here.
I'm sure the episodes themselves will be good, fun and with the great quality we usually get, but the concept of Cadence even existing. Argh.

I'll admit that the duality presented by Luna and Celestia has been one of my favourite parts of the shows mythology, and honestly enough this episodes premise sounds awfully much like a bad fanfic, haha.

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I'm withholding full judgment on Cadence (jokingly referred to as the Battlemaster of the Alicorns) until after the episodes air. I have plans to have four mortal Alicorns, adding a bit more to the duality, Sun and Moon, Earth and Sky. If I like her personality and the writers show what her powers/domain are, she might just become the Alicorn of the Sky.

Still with enough of the gaps given in the history, the mythology of Equestria is still up for grabs

I think the show sees them as ascended ponies. I don't really have a headcanon opinion on the subject; each of the possibilities is very interesting and worth exploring in fanfic.

I definitely enjoyed portraying them as full goddesses in Merely a Mare, even if it meant that I couldn't have conflict in a more traditional adventure sense. It's very challenging to write omnipotent immortals in a way that doesn't make them complete and utter Mary Sues, to give them a characterization that makes readers able to identify with them, and to give them challenges that are difficult but not impossible to overcome.

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But that's the fun part, and the difficult part as well. Expand on the character, make them real, and not lose track of who they really are.

283427 The way I wantit to be... is that alicorns are immortal, but have no control over life or death, as they have no control over their own. The princess's have to somehow cope with the fact that every friend they know will one day die and that they will never experience be blessed with a ticket to whatever afterlife they might have (if that's what their belief tells them) and be reunited with their loved ones. They may have been created at the beginning of time and served to watch over mortals, but not to interfere with their lives.
Their interference was required however in order to end the tyranny of Discord. They may have a degree of powerful magic, powerful enough to defend themselves from some mortal creature attempting to overthrow them from their throne, but no sort of world-changing existence-altering magic. Nothing that would be more powerful than Star-Swirl the Bearded, however powerful he may have been. Their magic mainly helps them with their cutie mark (and many fans have commented that their talents are nothing special because unicorns were responsible for the day and night in HWE. But I say it is rather remarkable because where it took many unicornS to raise the sun and moon, it only takes TWO alicorns to do that).

That's how I choose to see it anyway. They're going to need their own episode for some factual evidence.

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I look at their magic like this, somewhat to add what you said: They are very powerful, but most of the magic is tied up in their domain, and the connection to the Sun and Moon. Denim Blue kind of touched on that in "Duties" when the hurricane had to be stopped. Celestia and Twilight couldn't go cause they could very much loose control of their connection and the balance of Day and Night goes wonky.

285679 Celestia and Luna you mean?

Something I also wonder about is how she and Luna wielded the Elements of Harmony. Since there's six of them, they had to have divided them up evenly. But it's tricky deciding which three elements each sister represents (or represented) the most.

Since Celestia was able to wield all of the Elements herself when she had to defeat Nightmare Moon, the question really comes down to which Elements Luna represents best. But that might be a topic better for a Luna thread/group.

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No I meant Celestia and Twilight, "Duties" is the story that has the Mane 6 becoming Alicorns.

In my headcanon it is less of embodying the Six Virtues, and more of a genetic link... kind of. They are direct descendants of the first pony to bear that power of the Elements of Harmony. But I do see your point, which of the Virtues/Elements do Celestia and Luna embody?

285683 So that means alicorn is something like Super Saiyan?

I'm going to need to read this, aren't I?

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No, more like ascended beings. And yes you should read it, it has Twilestia, Lunashy and the current pairings.

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Interesting look at things. I don't particularly agree with this view, but it's certainly a theory that can and does make for interesting stories.

Even in this state, I would probably say that their magic power is considerably stronger than a regular Unicorn though. Aside from a very few exceptionally gifted unicorns, I can't imagine anyone coming close.

I see the Princesses as exceptionally able, both in the reach of their magic and their strength. I fully expect both Celestia and Luna to be able to use any magic a unicorn could conceive, the same ability as Twilight have. I would imagine that Starswirl, while apparently exceptionally skilled, would probably be more limited to his area of expertise, even if his skill at that specific area could possibly rival the princesses. Of course, it's hard to say since they rarely use their magic anyway.

But then, I'm a fan of OP Twilight, and by Celestias own words she's the pony with the most raw talent Ever.

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Helps that Twilight's special talent is magic itself, not just a specific area of magic like Trixie or Rarity. I guess that is one reason why many make our favorite adorkable unicorn an Alicorn

the only ascended pony here is pinkie.
pinkie was sonic rainboom enlightened

My view is that Celestia and Luna are repurposed terraforming equipment.

It was stated that the unicorns as a whole used to be in charge of raising the sun and moon. So I'm going with the idea that eventually they created - for lack of a better word - golems to do it for them. Naturally, they'd build their new labor-saving devices to be tamper-resistant, long-lasting, durable, visually appealing, and single-minded. Their job was to spend all of eternity pushing their associated celestial body at exactly the right speed.

Which brings us to Discord. He pulls the pair away, imbues them with free will, and lets them go to unleash their god-like powers on a world they're completely ignorant of in every possible way while he watches their antics. Eventually, he gets bored, wanders off, and finds a creative and entertaining way to destroy their parent civilization. Later on, the two find the Elements of Harmony and seal him into stone.

And so you end up with the two still being charge of day and night, but know they have thoughts and feelings and emotions, whereas before they carried out their duty mindlessly. Which leads up to Nightmare Moon and all the other history we know.

I know this sounds like a rather bizarre explanation, but it lets me sidestep several otherwise thorny issues. I get to sidestep all the "natural" issues (parents, alicorn race, power, cutie-marks, longevity) by making them unnatural and all the "goddess" issues (pantheon, divine power, origin, place in cosmos) by giving them a temporal origin.