Do you like stories where the story is centered around a jerk or not? I actually do, especially in HiE. The character raising hell will be inevitable, and there won't be any cliche devices occurring. But, that's not the only reason: I mostly like it because the character's flaws are higher and watching them overcome them will be an accumulative effort. Of course, there is a limit on how much of a dick a character can be.
Anyways, mines is pretty obvious. Yours?

803487 The Jerk is one of my favorite archetypes, TBH.

Rainbow Dash can be a bit of an asshole and I love reading and writing stories with her as the central protagonist. Even if the main character isn't going to bring the trouble down upon themselves through hubris, it's always great for the protagonist to be a snarky jerk. Even if they're a complete bastard, it can be a lot of fun.

What's the "limit" on how much of a dick a character can be, though? I ask not because I'm worried about how much of an asshole my main character in my story is (he'd be an annoying douche by design, anyway), but more because I'm curious what you all think the ponies would be willing to put up with.

Obviously, Fluttershy and Pinkie Pie would allow a few more shenanigans than Applejack or Rarity. How much of an asshole do you have to be to set off the characters in Equestria?

I think everyone is a bit of a jerk, and to see it come out is more natural and better writing. However, people who are complete jerks all the time, real life or fic, annoy me.

803487
It depends on the kind of jerk, I guess, or what makes them unpleasant - Some characters are just petty and spiteful, but some are simply insensitive or self-absorbed, and I prefer the second kind since it's a less aggressive kind of dickishness, and more just a function of them wanting to get their own way. It still creates conflict, but keeps the character on the right track towards being a better person.
The protagonist I'm writing at the moment turned out to be kind of a douchebag, but I'm trying to keep him from being a full-on asshole.

One of the main characters of my novel is a bit of a dick, but he's not the main-main character. Asshole protagonists can work, as long as they are written correctly, which is remarkably difficult to manage.

In the Rarity chapter of Quit Dragon Your Heels, I have Rarity showing a touch of snobbery. She believes that only elite are worthy of her, only to find herself curb-stomped for it and realising that love doesn't have to have a mansion in order to count.

Anyone can come off as an a**hole under the right circumstances, even the most patient of saints. The trick is HOW their a**holiness appears. For example, Twilight can be an a**hole if she is confronted with something she doesn't understand; she will do everything she can to figure out something she is curious about, even if it ticks other ponies off. Applejack is stubborn, and will refuse all outside help for the sake of her pride, no matter how insulting she becomes to ponies who just want to help. And so on and so forth.

Tl;dr: Do not force one character to be an a**hole and the others saints. Make them all different shades of a**holiness, and put them in situations that bring out their a**hole side. Then sit back and watch the fireworks.

803487

If you haven't already, one of the greatest films of our era is called There Will Be Blood, and the protagonist is a massive bastard; that is the best example I know.

Bastard characters can be done well, they just need to have some redeeming qualities. The audience still can appreciate Daniel Day Lewis's character (In There Will Be Blood) because he has drive and desire, and wrestles with his character for large portions of the movie. Stories are about character exploration and their struggles, and annoying characters can really help a good story just as long as they do struggle. Jerk characters need reasons why they are jerks, and that will often keep the story afloat or make up the entire story.

Of course, redeeming qualities are also great, but there are a lot of things to consider already.

*laughs maniacally*

803487
This is essentially any story centered around the greatest, and most powerful of unicorns.

Also, possibly the fastest pegasus. Though less and less so as time goes on.

They're two of my favorites to write for.

As for OCs... I'd wouldn't be against the idea. I like jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold types. And writing the villain is fun too. Haven't done it yet though.

That being said, I don't necessarily want to read a story where the protagonist is totally unlikeable. Most every protagonist, even a jerk, needs to earn a bit of love from the reader, or else what's the point?

my new upcoming story will be like that... Because making story about jerks is fun.

Jerks can be fun, but if you're going to make one the main character they need to either grow or have some depth to them. I can think of a few stories on this site that featured an asshole main character that I upvoted and faved, only to downvote them after several chapters in. Why?

The character NEVER changed or showed any other side to his personality. It was chapter after chapter of him acting like a complete ass no matter what the situation. Those stories get very tiresome very quickly.

Depends.

It can be done very well. A real bastard of a character can be great at times, just to see how horrible they can be. There have been many stories or movies that I've watched, and I've absolutely loved the portrayal of a particular character, even if he's an outright bastard--sometimes because of it!

But it can be done badly, and so easily. The most common flaw is not having their jerk-ness have appropriate results in-universe. All too often, a main character acts like a complete ass to everyone, and there is no consequence to it, or worse yet, like him even more for it (No, Rainbow Dash will not fall in love with your bad-boy OC because he's an ass to her friends. She will probably kick his face in, however). The archtype is commonly crossed with the Gary Stu type, where the consequences of his assholish behavior is buried under the carpet while the story tries to show off how "cool" and "edgy" he is. When it does offend someone, that person is invariably wrong.

Others simply behave like an ass to everyone, suffering the effects of it, even when it's to their own detriment, even when it's painfully obvious to them, yet they carry on anyway. Not because they're angry, or they hate a particular character, or things are going wrong, or because he's simply given up on caring about anything. No, they're an ass because it's their one and only defining character trait. If they stopped being an ass, they no longer have anything to define. They're one step away from being a blank character.

It's really easy to make a character behave like a total jerk. It's a lot harder to make one that's fully developed, engaging, and deep enough to make into an interesting major character suitable to be a significant focus of the story.

I've seen far too many fics try and fail, falling into the same angry-Gary-Stu trap. It's one of the things that particularly drives me away from HiE fics. They've very common there, and HiE fics are incredibly common due to being an easy concept. Due to being an easy concept, they get a lot more poorer writers in their ranks who have less creativity, who bring the general perceived quality of the lot down. Given that, it's pretty common to find jerk-HiE fics, but incredibly rare to fine ones that do it well.

803487 I actually do enjoyable unlikable protagonists, in fact some of my favorite shows like Dan Vs., Family Guy to an extent, and several others have some very fun unlikable protagonists. The best way to make an unlikable or morally questionable characters--especially the protagonist--if they're funny enough or just all around fun to watch. It can also help to make them cartoonishly over-the-top unlikable like Eric Cartman from South Park or Early from Squidbillies.

Meh, it depends. For example, I have been experimenting with an insane psycho nut job slowly killing off the Main 6 one by one. Twilight especially, right in front of her foalsitter and older brother. I mean, come on! We always see Shiny here being the heroic sacrifice, but what about Twilight? How would Shining Armor feel about this? Extremely guilty I bet, and it would be up to him to stop them before they assassinate the rest.

And how would Cadence feel? Extremely depressed I bet.

Or worse, if the writer is such a sick basterd as to move into more sensitive rape territory...
Actually, that is a bridge better not crossed, unless you do the damn thing extreme justice.
Words alone can rend entire nations out of existence.

.... GREAT! I've gone completely off topic. Yoicks to me for being such a bloody fool!
I knew I shouldn't have read that grimdark fic starring Twilight murdering her own family.
Ugh... My apologies gents. I shall depart until further days end.

The character in my fic is a mixed bag actually. On one hand he tends to be a bit of a jerk whenever an opportunity arises like say, if he sees weakness of character or mind he will act and most likely wreak havoc. But on the other hand he thinks things through and tries to be calm and collective. Another trait he has is his ability to try anything to prove others wrong, like blowing up the rainbow factory to launching Opal into space just to mess with Rarity. (He tends to prank and annoy her allot) If left alone to have fun or to do work, most likely he will get into trouble, by burning something or just by goofing off.

You see with Curtis, anything goes. That link is a link to the fic if you want to look at it.

804210>>804139>>803861>>803765>>803712>>803696>>803567>>803653>>803554>>803487

804246
Oh hey I've heard about you from Magnum.
I was just laughing because my character is going to be a bit of a bastard and a thread about Asshole protagonists just happened to be posted as Im almost done with it. hehehehe

804246

While this isn't a shameless self-promote thread, you linked me here and you raise a decent point.

In this story, Curtis is very much a jerk and continually jerks with the ponies for the sake of giggles. However, Curtis is essentially a Mary Sue because he can choose whether or not to be a heartless pretentious bastard without any meaningful consequences (i.e. Twilight hates him and abruptly removes him from her life). Curtis is not a "bad guy", but his narrator is abusively sarcastic in favor of Curtis's BAMFitude attitude on life in Equestria, so the character relationships in this story are completely unrealistic.

In short, make sure bastard characters hurt people. People cannot like your character for realistic reasons.

804384 You raise a good point. I reread my fic and I just noticed. Anyway thanks for the feedback, is there any way I can make Curtis more ralatable and the story better. Just Pm me and I'll read it in the morning, also can you be my pre reader?

804458

Absolutely, I live to serve. Glad I could help out.

Jerk like protagonists can acceptable if they aren't completly rude to everyone for no reason. I've played games like "Sly Copper" where the main character esentially a wise cracking thief and he always drops snarky comments but deep down he's a really nice guy and his more jerk like traits part of the humor.

But jerks like Paul from the D/P saga of Pokemon or Sential Prime from Transformers Animated are where I draw the line. Characters that never learn their lesson even after they are called out on it make for characters that are impossible to like. Of course we can't forget about Gary Motherfucking Oak but later on he started maturing and became less of a jerk and it's the same with Ash's latest rival Trip.

I had a ton of fun writing both Discord and Grogar in Titanomachy. Both are huge a-holes but each in a distinctive way. The story really doesn't have protagonists or antagonists, just characters who want what they want.

Grogar gets a bunch more play in the sequel and there is a good argument for both Twilight and Celestia being the a-holes in that story.

Most HiE's start off with the character being an ass. Mine starts off like that, but he gets better over time.

I actually rather enjoy it when a character has a mean streak. Even good characters like Twilight Sparkle and Rainbow Dash can be jerks, and that honestly makes them much more fun to write.

Rarity is actually one of my most favorite jerks in all of MLP. In the first season alone, she uses Spike as a pincushion, whines her head off and acts like a twat to the Diamond Dogs, and follows Blueblood around and expecting him to be her dream guy despite her not researched his background at all (at least, nothing past "prine" and "rich").

804860 What if they were complete sadists? Personally, with all the butthurt going around, I feel like writing a fic to piss just about EVERYONE off.

I am think about having Applebloom murder human children by shoving butt feces into their throats, making them choke on it, then having Applebloom raped by human anon. Applejack proceeds to butcher her and feed her to the family. Rainbow Dash joins in by beating up the ever loving hell out of Changeling Chicken Scootaloo, causing her to commit suicide by bombing some unnamed embassy, which in turn will cause war throughout Equestria.

Luna dies, Celestia dies, the world ends... Then it starts anew with the author getting their ass handed to them on a silver planter.

Forgive me, but I have just come off hot out of a Pokeshipping. You think shipping here is bad? Try Bulbagarden on for sizes. Freaking neo nazis.

As a further note, the success of "jerkiness" in a character also depends on if the reader needs to sympathize with him.

A character that is a jerk but has more redeeming qualities can be written as a sympathetic character.

A character that is a straight-up asshole, particularly the type that regularly does assholish things to other characters just because he feels slighted/he wants to show that he's better/because he can is not going to be a sympathetic character. Many stories write a character like this and then expect the reader to like them. It usually doesn't work so well.

Ive always seen that there are types of jerks. Each one compliments and contrasts other traits you could find in characters. If a jerk is balanced out with his other traits and doesn't over do it (without just reason) then they seem much more interesting and fun then if they were a jerk who flip flopped over who he was.

804246
that's no being a jerk.... that's just a simple nuisance.

Ive had my fair share of problems with asshole protagonists. Espescially my Trixie and Vinyl stories have been very divisive due to how I portrait the characters. I dont intend to show either of them as assholes, but rather as ponies whose emotional problems occasionally makes them act in self-centered ways.

And I think whether or not you like it depends on how you read the story. Either you see where they are coming from and can root for them anyway, even of you dont approve of all their actions, or you go "this story is bad, the protagonist is unlikeable!" And while that's fine, I'd lie if I said I didn't get a bit discouraged seeing the thumbs-down pile up on a story.

A concept I find interesting is the idea of internal enemies, that the conflict doesn't necesserily have to come from the outside world, but from the characters ow less that stellar qualities or tedecies. Anyone struggling with depression or anxiety is prolly familiar with THAT feeling.

And thats something that can be used to create outwardly unlikeable characters who are actually just fairly decent, if flawed, people.

I feel like this deserves a mention.

804898

No no no, jerks have to have vulnerability and softer sides like anybody else. They just gotta show it less often. The kind of character you just described is what can be considered a Complete Monster, a character with absolutely no redeeming traits at all. Incidentally, having a canon character become one takes a great deal of storytelling: it'd be definitely obnoxious of you to simply cast anypony in the role just because you want to annoy people.

805444 True. I suppose that is the more arrogant part of my personality shining through.
It would be an interesting thought experiment, but truthfully, I don't have the patience nor the will to actually write such a fic. I much prefer sappy, sweet romantic love fluff.

803487
I actually do not like characters who are jerks. Read Aristotle's Poetics on tragedy (it's short). He proposes that characters who are not moral (the equivalent today is assholish, I suppose) cannot be sympathized with by the audience. The best kind of hero in his opinion is one who has a flaw that we can all identify with, but who is otherwise a commendable person--commendable so that when he or she suffers in the story's conflict, we feel pity.
I suppose that if a bad attitude, a sort of pathological unfriendliness, an assholishness, is your hero's only flaw, since many of us do struggle with that particular social ailment, it could be a point of connection with your hero for the reader. If that flaw initiates, perpetuates, or deepens the conflict for your otherwise likable hero, you might be able to write a good story with an asshole at its center.

803494 Same.

803503 I would guess the limit is where the jerk just doesn't have any empathy or feelings like an organism would. Sure, the ponies would be peeved dealing with a caustic dickwad everyday, but the point where is just a stone cold sadists will set them off.

803505 If someone is a complete asshole and they get punished, it keeps me intrigued. That is the only way I would follow the full-on jerk character.

803530 I prefer the second one as well. The first one always turn out to be a narcissistic. Another type of bastard character I enjoy are the ones who are morally confused. They don't understand why they upset people but then get a grip later on. Most of these stories with these characters tends to have a happy ending, but corny to say the least.

803567 Yeah, that's another way to help the reader sympathies with a character. Exposition andinternal monologue. Readers might still be pissed at the character, but they will still love them for some reason. Exploring them is the only chance you have at making them amiable.

804139 They have to be incredibly funny. Their humor would probably save the story unless they get a grip tbh.

804246 I read the story. He isn't really a jerk, just a brat. I would say he is just an imbecilic brat because he doesn't really show signs of being impertinent.

806811 I generally write my humans as The Jerk. It makes for a much more interesting story.

807444
Way better than a timorous character who was anti-social on earth, yes?