There are several tropes that TVTropes, the ultimate cure for boredom, such as From A Single Cell, which details just how incomprehensibly unkillable something is for whatever reason, Physical God, which pretty much means about as untouchable and powerful you can get while still having a corporeal form, and Complete Immortality, which is pretty much what it sounds like it would mean if you've followed this far. I've been looking over these and I'm curious, and hopefully anyone else out there is as well, as to how you can use tropes like these to apply to an OC--even one that embodies these wholeheartedly--and how to avoid them being labelled as 'Overpowered' or 'Mary Sue/Marty Stu(s)' or something similar.

I hear people talk about their hatred for Mary Sue's an awful lot around here, but I don't see as many example fics as they do. Sure, some of the younger, less experienced writers might fall into the "black coat with red mane alicorn" trope, but most other OCs are fairly well executed. But again, I don't read every new fic so maybe I'm missing a lot.

One way would be by inserting a weakness that can be exploited without a lot of effort, like Green Lantern's ring being ineffective against anything yellow (or made of wood in the case of the original GL)

The main thing you need to have in order to stop your character from being "overpowered" and a "Mary Sue" is challenges that genuinely challenge the character. Deity in a fight with mortals, using mortal tactics? Overpowered. Deity in a complex battle spanning thousands of years against an equally, if not more, powerful deity in which there is no clear victor? Not overpowered. Another way to give a good challenge is to have it to where it doesn't allow the character to benefit from their strengths. For example, say you have a character that's the strongest being around, with no peer in combat. Put that character in a situation where he's attempting to woo his oblivious crush, and his strength is of no great help. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, so long as there's a real challenge posed.

Couple things I notice really.
It's not that they're invulnerable. Most Spike stories that have him grow up keep him invulnerable, and it mostly makes sense cause he's a bloody dragon!
The problem when these characters show up is that they're NOT just invulnerable. They also rival or come close to Rainbow Dash in Speed, or Applejack in strength, when these are their main attributes. Or they could tear Twilight apart magically which is utterly ridiculous.

The second fault these characters run into is lack of tension. The only time being invulnerable is going to come in handy is in a story with some adventure to it, and no one is afraid for your character if they know they can't be hurt, which means the only obvious response is a hostage situation with someone that is vulnerable. And it would be a horrible crime to turn the characters we so love for their independence into damsels in distress.

Thirdly,
Choices and dialogue. They often become too perfect on all accounts. They hardly ever make the wrong choices. (notice i say hardly ever? Yeah, that means making a poor choice one or two times does not constitute as an imperfect therefore relatable character) And their personalities are normally flat and uninteresting because of it.

You want to make a superhero? That's cool, but understand you're facing an uphill battle there, and you need to design your plot to refrain from almost all of the aforementioned. At least that's my kick at this particularly nasty feline.

772830
Ezn's Guide to FanFiction - Mary Sues

TVTropes 'The ultimate cure for boredom'? You hit that one right on the money! I think the one trope we're looking to avoid here with Super Sue alicorns is called the Flying Brick. For those not sure of what a Flying Brick is, the easiest way to get the concept is to imagine Superman's power set: Invulnerability, Flight, assorted flavors of vision and senses, and any other power that can be awesome.

The way I like to think about character design to avoid such labels as Overpowered or Super Sue is that there is more to a character then just physicality and physical weaknesses. If you can't or won't give your character some form of physical restraint, make up for that with a psychological, magical, technological, or even social restraint of some sort. For example, what can stop Superman? Kryptonite is the easy answer, but it goes deeper than that. What ultimately stops Superman is his morality, and thank God too, because there's practically nothing else that can. (Apart from perhaps some intricate scheme by Lex Luthor maybe.)

Humans, who I believe are predominately the target audience for our stories, enjoy a tough character. This is a temporary thing, though, because if somebody wins all the time, you won't root for them anymore, because you know they will win, which takes the freshness out of an idea. We may want to be more powerful or perfect in some way, but deep down, each of us understands and empathizes more with a character that has weaknesses like us in some form or fashion. If you can write a relateable character, the haters may forgive you for making your character so powerful.

Overpowered characters aren't necessarily Mary Sue/Gary Stu, though. While it can be a common symptom, I would tend to define a Sue more along the lines of 'They're special beyond anyone else in the story'.

So if your OC is an immortal, god-like being AND there is no other character that can come close to matching him/her -- it's straying very close to Sueism.

On the other hand, an immortal, god-like being in a whole pantheon of the same isn't a Sue at all. It comes down to how special they are within the story.

Beyond that, pay attention to the characters backstory. Is there a good reason for why they've grown so powerful? Is their immortality related to the plot. Why is it important?

Having realistic and believable justification can really help sell an OC.

772830

Want to avoid writing overpowered characters? Don't take your inspiration from superhero comics.

I have to say that, because honestly I think those are responsible for 99% of terrible writing ideas in western culture.

Really, the way to put taps on power is to just think holistically. A sherman tank is tough, but it still needs oiling, cleaning, regular repairs etc... going without any of which will cause mechanical failures and make it less useful, if not cause it to completely break down.

Same goes for a man. Instead of the Green Lantern having a completely arbitrary weakness like not being able to affect anything yellow, how about this more natural one: Since his ring draws on the imagination, maybe he sometimes has brainfarts, his brain goes blank, he just gets "drained"--sort of like YOU do after a marathon writing session.

I just never understood why this is so hard for people. Just draw from your own experiences. Think about times when you weren't able to do what you wanted to and what factors came up to cause it.

Case in point, I hear people often say Twilight is overpowered. But it doesn't matter because 99% of the problems she faces can not be solved just by casting a spell.

Think, also, of fighting games. Yes, Ryu's Shinku-Hadouken may do a lot of damage, but all the other dude has to do is either jump or block to nullify it--and since it holds Ryu in place while its executing, it may even leave him open to a combo. THIS is the kind of stuff a writer should think of, not "let's give him a kryptonite."

772857 So I can defeat both Green Lanterns with an HB pencil?

Now, on to invulnerable characters.

The important thing to remember is that stories are about conflict. If you've got no conflict, you've got no story. So that means if you make a character invulnerable, the conflict is going to have to be based around something else.

However, if you have two really powerful forces going at each other, even if their power is ludicrously overblown, it can be okay, because of the "Rule of Cool". Which states that logic may be abandoned insofar as it allows something awesome to be done.

Solar-system-sized gods playing basket-ball with Jupiter? Sure, might not make sense but the awesome imagery is there.

And then there's this. Rocket-launcher wielding ice-dragons. Tell me you wouldn't like to see the carnage those fights would have?

I'd break the better used of these tropes into two groups.

1) The more common approach is to attach a limitation of some kind. Very few characters are completely impervious: Most are built with some form of "Achilles Heel," (which in itself is a wonderful example, considering Achilles wounded freaking Apollo.) Mythology is full of monsters, gods, and even humans with nigh invincibility except for one tiny little catch. In any sort of confrontation, it is important to bring home the peril of a given situation through the given weakness OR make the peril less about the characters personal safety and about something else entirely, such as a damsel in distress or the character's value system. Failure to transfer the source of peril will result in a mary/gary sue.

2) Have the major theme of the story be something separate from or examining that ability. Superman is my favorite modern example: The primary exploration of his character is that of an immigrant from the stars, trying to sort out his heritage with his new life. This is done less commonly today thanks to a gravitation towards "real-to-life" characters (I'm looking at YOU, Stan Lee,) but this was the basis of classic storytelling. Gilgamesh, Achilles and even Job, all from different traditions, were all hailed as near invincible in their own way and allow the story to weave a lesson about right and proper actions.

Remember that your story should always be about your character's decisions. I am not entertained by characters that slay 1000 orcs just because they can, even when its a summer blockbuster movie, but a character that is forced to a crossroads with a cost to either path will almost always draw my attention. Make me feel their conflict or pain, and you'll have me hooked. Every time.

772936

And then there's this. Rocket-launcher wielding ice-dragons. Tell me you wouldn't like to see the carnage those fights would have?

I see your ice dragons with rocket launchers and raise my tyrannosaurs in fighter jets.

Back on topic, when I'm writing a character, irrespective of how overpowered that character is, I have this compulsion to be as sadistic as possible towards it. The more that character's capable of doing, the more I try to deconstruct it, tear it apart. An example for sake of argument--I've got a Jane Pony who's basically a cross between Magneto and Storm. That right there is more red flags than you can shake at a bull, right? So then I go on to say the accident that gave her these neigh-divine powers also damaged her memory and split her personality in two--one side is docile as a kitten, mind of a foal, but the other side is a mindless animal, and a danger to both friend and foe--and that if she gets all her memory back (and slowly but surely, she is), Very Bad Things will happen. Boom, conflict.

Here's what I got from reading this thread:

No Conflict Character = Mary/Gary Sue

No Conflict Character + Superpowers = Overpowered Characters

Please upvote if you think this is accurate, downvote if not.

772830 "don't write overpowered characters" is another one of those dangerously simplified writing advice designed to counter common mistakes, but that people cling to for too long cus its easier to find pride in obeying basic rules than to actually tell a great story.

The problem with this kind of Mary Sue, often called a "god mode sue", is that the character is NOTHING but their powers, once you take away the immortality and shooting lasers out of your eyes, what remains? Scaling the power back makes it easier to write the character as an actual character, but it doesn't remove the fundamental problem of characters being defined by their powers.

Doctor Manhattan is a good example how to write a downright omnipotent character RIGHT. Pretty much everything in the book you can use to make an omnipotent character interesting is thrown at him.

Wait. So you want to have a completely immortal / godlike oc?

As the protagonist?

Why?

As an antagonist, maybe. Maybe. But as a protagonist? Those be dangerous waters to be sailin' in matey. If you do, just give them a major character flaw... like an emotional problem or something.

Brevity is the soul of wit, so I shall be brief.

An overpowered character is one who's powers get in the way of a character arc. A mary sue/gary stu, is a character who has NO character arc. This is why overpowered characters are often sues and stus.

In short, build a character around their arc, then add powers to taste. So long as these don't interfere with the arc, you're fine. What makes a good character arc? Growth or decay. Either a good man falls apart, or a bad one finds his way. (comedy is an exception to this, but then comedy runs on violating the standard rules)

773031 It may be more accurate to say this.

Conflict solved with no effort = Mary Sue
Superpowers = possible Mary Sue

773055 Good to see there are some other fans of Dr. Manhattan.

Basically, a good piece of advice I can give is match your character to all the other things around them. They are a part of the world, and they've got to play by its rules. If you need an advanced set of rules in order to have the character "fit" so be it, that's where world-building comes in.

773055

Honestly, this is why the discussion of Mary Sues really shouldn't be focused on "under/over-powered". What makes a character a Mary Sue, in many ways, is that the plot just "happens" to them instead of them interacting with the plot. Being overpowered, of course, is one way that happens (Oh, you can't beat me because I'm super special awesome and stuff), but then there's the complete opposite where if you make the character so weak they become just as annoying (wah, pity me because I'm so pathetic and stuff). Both are absolutely horrendous to read.

I'm honestly more of the idea that what defines a Mary Sue is more on how much does the plot and world seem to bend to their very existence. Does the entirety of the world seem to revolve around the character and exists only for that character? Does everything happen in such a way that the character always wins and is infallible? Do the other characters act in such a manner that their only purpose in life and existence is their obsessing over the main character? Those are probably more important than just arguing whether or not some character is overpowered.

And all the other stuff people said about conflict is important too.

772895 Well, first off I want to say that I'm really impressed and glad that so many people in such a short time span have given such useful feedback, advice, and general consensus to this. Now, onto the matter at hand; I'll be using a very infamous character and one of my absolute favorites: Lacey Alexis Sanchez. Now, right out of the starting gate, she already has a lot of red flags not just in prior credentials (she's a pure-blooded god, she's the daughter of the King of the Gods, she's [delectably] the most skilled and powerful fighter in her entire family, and most defiantly the strongest in terms of power) but some just as a character (she's violent, lustful, drinks, gets into plenty of fights that either end in severe injury or flat-out death without much remorse), but like you were saying about before, she's part of a much larger pantheon of gods, superhumans, angels, demons, etc. Lacey Alexis's universe, and in fact her home environment, doesn't actually make her out to be any more overpowered than anyone else, even regularly associating with similarly powered individuals. Despite her negatives listed above, she also has many positive traits: most of the fights she gets into are defending/sticking up for her younger siblings or boyfriend (even if she does go a bit more extreme), she'a not easily willing to admit when she's wrong but does accept when she's put in her place (albeit begrudgingly), and genuinely uses her power to protect those closest to her and uphold her family name to its highest pedigree. Even when she has her full powers activated (which wasn't even supposed to happen until she naturally inherited them at 19), she struggles with some of the more powerful abilities like controlling reality and very rarely uses strong magic (though it's mostly her own ethics than limitations) and does genuinely feel a sense of the weight and responsibility of her newly-unlocked power; of course, she still doesn't have her True Form, but that's only because it hasn't manifested itself and most likely won't until her eighteenth birthday.

773104 So, by your own logic, how would one tackle a character arc AROUND their own powers, regardless of what they may be?

773106

One of the things I like about Dr. Manhattan is that he doesn't exactly go "Yay, superpowers, now to fight crime!" He thinks very much like the scientist he is and synthesizes a vast amount of lithium to make electric cars feasible and he sorta reluctantly joins a superhero group later.

That's a good example of how a character isn't defined by his power, instead we get to see the relationship he has with his own powers and how it affects a character who was already pretty well-defined before he had them.

773117

The best description of a Mary Sue I've heard is that a character exists to serve the plot, a Mary Sue exist to have the plot serve THEM.

If you poke around on the internet long enough, you can prolly find the first Mary Sue, from a Star Trek fanfic basically existing to parody the tropes of early fanfiction. Reading that one, it becomes obvious how much of a charicature of itself (and it was already a charicature!) the idea of a Mary Sue has become.

I know plently of people who, seeing this original Mary Sue without her name would argue that "It's not a Sue, it's an original character!" Because she isn't wearing costume porn and shoots lasers from her eyes or stuff like that. But the main point of the story is, as you say, how everything starts revolving around this new character.

I think in the end it's important not to make your character pefect. Give them some sort of flaw or weakness.

All super heros have awesome super powers but they also have weakness' that can be exploited or used against them.

773141

regardless of what they may be?

That's kind of an absurd question, don't you think? Once superpowers are "anything" then they're just a plot element like anything else, and their role becomes meaninglessly abstract.

Really, all I can tell you is that as stories are built around conflict, then a story built around superpowers must cast the superpowers as the source of the conflict. If they're not, then all they're doing is modifying the story to include more eye candy. I mean, rocket launching ice dragons are fundamentally acting out the same conflict as a game of paintball. All you've done is Michael Bay it up. (No, I'm not sure if I spelled his name correctly, but really after three transformer films does it deserve to be spelled right?)

772929 Well, truthfully, I did at one point write several superhero comics, including Black X (whose limitation was his mortality), Moon Star (who used a self-designed supersuit and who's biggest flaws were his suit and the morality of actually killing the ratlike monsters that most of the country's populous had been devolved to called Model Citizens or Models for short), and Jupiter Justice. Jupiter was shown to be powerful, sure, having control over thunder, super strength, flight, several different increasingly powerful forms (though most of them have much more limited time than his other forms), but he is shown to have weaknesses including the Guardians' equivalent of kryptonite called Gravitronium which devolves them out of their guardian forms, Jupiter doesn't work alone--usually fighting with his sidekick Jupiter Girl and his equal Trenlork. On top of that, Jupiter Justice is actually 11-year-old Jake Justice, making him much more vulnerable. Though the size of his allies, spanning most of the universe and at least one per planet, more than compensates.

772872
See below for examples of how to do something like this last idea.
772873

The only time being invulnerable is going to come in handy is in a story with some adventure to it, and no one is afraid for your character if they know they can't be hurt, which means the only obvious response is a hostage situation with someone that is vulnerable.

Actually, a lot of my slice-of-life stories/story ideas have the vast and (within the story) unopposed in any meaningful way power of one or more of the characters as something that drives the plot.

"Scratching a Diamond" basically consists of Celestia wowing one of her own guards with several feats that are beyond anything the guard can reasonably be expected to deal with. Yes, it does turn out that she is injured, but the WAY in which she is injured, plus the casual way she treats it only drives home that the only creature in season one (when I wrote this) that could actually challenge her is now one of her closest allies.

"The Two Deaths of Fluttershy"
Could be summed up as "Fluttershy becomes a vampire... this changes surprisingly little.

She ends up immune to sunlight and running water, able to turn into mist, and several other very powerful abilities.

Which would be... bad signs, although not deal killers if this were an adventure story (But hey, "The Powers of Harmony" is looking pretty good, and so was "Its a Dangerous Business", and I LOVE The POV series), especially since she is the ONLY one who gets upgraded powers in the story. But it ISN'T an adventure story. There are passing references to Fluttershy taking a vacation to the bottom of the ocean without needing protective spells (she has to fill her lungs with water to equalize the pressure, but other than that...) and getting shoved though a pipe-organ while in "mist-form", but that is mere background information.

So, despite UNILATERALLY powering up an already powerful character (as opposed to the even power-ups of the mane casts of the works I mentioned) I think I have something viable there.

Finally we have a plot idea I am going to write "at some point" that leads up to an eventual reveal of Celestia being invulnerable to certain things. (We know that she can be at least knocked down by Chrysalis, but that never comes up during the course of the story, and for all it matters I could have written it back during season 1 and made her flat-out unhurtable.)
Story goes something like this:
Celestia sends Twilight a letter saying she wants to meet the mane six at the Ponyville spa at some point in the future, and that the meeting will be highly classified.

She tells Twilight to negotiate out of her nigh-bottomless expense account (Celestia will pay her back... not that it matters) to rent the spa for an entire eventing, with the stipulation that Celestia will be placing a spell on the spa ponies when she arrives, that will erase their memories of what happened when she leaves (naturally this may cost extra).

Celestia also says that she would appreciate it if Rainbow Dash would arrive sore of wing from hard practice, Twilight sore of horn from strenuous magical exercises, and AJ sore of body from the more difficult sorts of farm work.

With a few months notice Twilight manages to set this up.

When they get there, it turns out that Celestia will be the one giving them their massages, while Aloe and Lotus merely direct her... also Celestia will be using no physical tools, save the jaccuzzi, but doing everything via telekinesis and forcefields.

The evening passes enjoyably but nothing important seems to be discussed.

When Twilight asks about this privately, Celestia replies that the "top secret" part of the exercise WAS the fact that she was learning massage techniques... because it might tip her hoof that she is learning so that she can update the techniques she uses on HERSELF when she uses her affinity to The Sun to teleport herself into it and tweak the convection currents like the nozzles on a jaccuzi, as she relaxes in the warmth of temperatures that would turn any mundane matter into plasma.

Of course, MAGIC is a whole other ball of wax, which is why she could lose at the wedding.

And it would be a horrible crime to turn the characters we so love for their independence into damsels in distress.

You mean like Celestia was a damsel in distress in "A Canterlot Wedding, Part 2" (or even "Return of Harmony")? Or, come to that, Cadance and/or Shining Armor in "The Crystal Empire"?

775169
Not at all. I could care less if Celestia, the goddess that constantly asks the heroes of the tales for help, ends up asking some one else for help. I start disliking a story when its the mane 6 that are put out to pasture, not the extras. I mean, Celestia is like the Krillin of MLP...
Simply put, I don't believe new heroes should overshadow the trademark characters, and ones that do, would probably be better off written into stories where the mane 6 simply were never involved.

You do make several good points that you could use invulnerability in more than just adventure, though you would still have to tread lightly about going too far over the edge in that new powers can now solve all problems, but I only speak from personal taste.

774036 No offense was meant, man. It's jut that I see a lot of people treating MLP like its a superhero series, and it isn't. Things like power levels or who is stronger shouldn't even matter in a setting where conflicts can revolve around things like celebrity careers or being jealous of a new friend.

I would post my opinions on the matter, but it seems that everyone has pretty much nailed it on the money

my thing has always been if a character is strong in a physical sense, challenge him in the moral or psychological sense, Superman is a friggin god, but he is a idealistic god, that's why I love the stories that explore superman on a fundamental level, how the very existence of Superman is immoral, how no one should have that power
Or if a character is a the epitome of moral righteousness, but isn't the best fighter, have someone kick the everloving shit out of him\her leave that character a broken husk so that they can rise up and prove the pen is mightier than the sword or yadda yadda

775363
Indeed... noting that the characters are pretty close to being super heroes, and so in a sense it IS am super-hero series, it just happens to be much more than that as well, including in the ways you describe.

775191
I can see your point.

777157

I can't see calling MLP a superhero series (except maybe the Mare-do-Well episode but even that is a stretch).

But what I mean is just its weird for people to be inventing Alicorn characters when, at a glance, its apparent that they'd be kind of uninteresting in a series where the only three alicorns we know of barely get any screen time and one of them is known (to us) primarily for making ponies write letters to her. I'd prefer to make a far more normal pony, myself. The normal ones are cuter.

777157

Indeed... noting that the characters are pretty close to being super heroes, and so in a sense it IS am super-hero series, it just happens to be much more than that as well, including in the ways you describe.

Just... no.

Being a 'superhero' series takes more than having characters act as heroes in, like, one episode in ten.

Twilight being the most powerful (or Dash being the fastest) of a group consisting of one third of the population doesn't qualify her for superhero status any more than an olympic weightlifter is a superhero for their strength. Even if they go smashing villains on the head with their meaty fists after work.

If Alicorn Twi starts to act like Hot Blooded Pinkie Pie or something, maybe then.

FiM is primarily a Slice of Life show that occasionally has heroic adventures. By and large the protagonists are mundane (if exceptional) folks, for their world.

778112 Indeed, that stuff is partly why I have a problem calling MLP a "superhero" series. In the context of their universe, the mane six are pretty much normal ponies.

Not sure I understand the "Hot Blooded Pinkie Pie" part though.

I know the original post talks about OCs, but with all the talk of the mane 6, I feel I should drop my two cents here.

Basically, I'm writing a story right now whose protagonist is post-S2 Twilight, and the story itself is about Twilight going on a different adventure each chapter, and defeating the Monster of the Week(tm). Something like a random TV show you watch with your brain turned off... And I've actually encountered the "OP character" problem. Namely, Twilight herself is friggin' overpowered. She's demonstrated powerful telekinetic abilities more than once, instant teleportation, and she even simply shot magical missiles at changeling in the wedding ep. Basically, unless the enemy is some Discord-level magical creature, there's no reason for Twilight not to just pick the monster up with magic and break its neck.

I keep having to come up with different reasons to limit Twilight's power; maybe the monster saps her magic away, or maybe she plainly isn't allowed to cast powerful spells due to whatever reason. It's a proper challenge when writing. That, I think, is the whole point of "superhero" stories too: you give extreme powers to somebody, and then you try and give them a new challenge every "episode" in a way that doesn't get boring or repetitive.

794206

Tossing an idea out there. One I thought of using myself, but I don't mind sharing:

What if Twilight's horn got broken? Would it affect her powers in some way?

793609
It's an ask tumblr thingamajig.

794206
Easy-peasy.

Twilight probably couldn't stomach breaking something's neck.
You could make that case for any of the Mane 6.

More in-depth: aside from a magic-missile thing that knocks people around (and seems to be nonlethal), we haven't exactly seen her let loose with the death. Could she? I don't doubt it. Does she know spells to incinerate her enemies from the get-go? You could easily make the case that she has yet to learn them. We didn't see her smiting the Manticore with magical doom, nor the hydra.

For heavens sakes, in Season 3, we see her run light a wuss, like the rest of the ponies, when the Timber Wolves come a-howling. Even though we know she probably has the power to turn that whole section of the Everfree border into an inferno.

Even if you do posit that she knows such spells, and is willing to use them, she might still be utterly outclassed by a unicorn (or other spellcaster) who has actual training or hard-won experience in combat (Or a combat cutie mark). There's more to a fight than just raw magical 'muscle'. To say nothing of the fact that she has all the weakness of your standard RPG mage. She's a glass cannon. If she doesn't have time to teleport, or doesn't realize an attack is coming, just about any real attack will probably put her out of the fight. The added earth-poniness of being an alicorn might change that, though.

Would she utterly annihilate an enemy charging at her with an axe across an open field? Sure. But any unicorn could. There's nothing, that we've seen, stopping Rarity from scooping said enemy up, lifting them as high as she can, and dropping them to their death. Telekinesis is an awesome ability in any situation where danger has to be directly in your face to hurt you.

If you're looking for a monster-of-the-week story, with the monsters being as powerful as your average mugger, don't feature a unicorn of any kind as the protagonist. Either that, or just do what others have done, and posit the idea of magic resistance as a trait that can either be learned, or can be innate. In that case, levitation, as such a basic, low-level spell, can be shaken off relatively easily.

I'm also not sure if there's any basis in thinking that levitation has the ability to actually to apply huge forces besides lifting. Hell, just add some exposition explaining that weight-reduction is a huge component of levitation, and that its ability to apply force is very limited. You could unscrew the cap off of a tough jar with it, open a heavy door, or turn a valve, but not much more.

If you absolutely want Twi, and you don't like the idea of magic resistance, yes, you're going to have to come up with novel situations, when you can't justify an enemy large, tough or armored enough to shake off her attacks. You don't necessarily just have to limit Twi magically. Limit her senses. Have a fight that takes place in the dense brush of the Everfree, where her opponent keeps stalking around. Or one in deep magical darkness. Or just have one of the monsters play it smart and put Twi into the hospital by attacking her when she's sleeping, and have Spike save her. Shapeshifters could be good too, for those sort of surprise attacks.

Monster of the week type series always run into the same problems. There's only so many novel ways to have a fight. A great number end up repeating the same resolutions over and over. And in the end, they almost invariably resort to story arcs to make up for that deficiency. Do yourself a favor and keep the story a limited-run thing. Have an ending bit ready for when you feel things getting played out.

799208
Well, if levitation can actually alter the mass of objects, we have a whole another premise on our hands.

Still; I actually had a story arc planned from the get-go, with rough ideas for the main "episodes" as well. So yes, I do intend on making this a "limited-run thing." I also try to avoid actual fights in favour of focusing on investigation. I figured it's Twi's schtick, trying to think her way around a problem before charging into battle.

When push comes to shove, Twi is capable and willing to fight, but I try not to make that the point of the fic (despite appearances).

"Magic resistance" is something I toy around with as well, although only for the really big ones. For the rest, I already have some solutions in mind...

796170
Twilight breaking/damaging her horn is an interesting idea. Although I'm not sure it fits into what I already have planned.... as I've said, I have an actual overarching plot unfolding, and that sounds like a long-term thing which my jeopardise it.

772929

I have to say that, because honestly I think those are responsible for 99% of terrible writing ideas in western culture.

Just being a western idea is a load of crap. Over powered characters exist in all genres. Shonen manga is all about the characters training to over tome their enemies in spectacular wars.

Even if you go back into ancient mythology the Greek and Roman "characters" were all heros and the children of gods. In Indian mythology are avatars or incarnates of their gods, and in many Japanese and Chinese folk tales the heros are supernaturally wise.

An over powered character doesn't make a bad story, it can make it fantastic depending on the character and story.

799653 You misread me. All I said was "a lot of bad ideas come from comic books." I never said that they're the only genre/medium that features overpowered characters.

What I DID say, was that they're a medium (or genre, whatever) that tends to overly rely on artificial weaknesses as opposed to organically-fitting, real ones. Superman being weak against Kryptonite, or Green Lantern being unable to affect wood/the color yellow, are classic examples.

And I'm sorry, when I see people worried about "overpowered" characters and literally half the suggestions they get involve such band-aid solutions as "make ponies immune to X magic" or "invent a rock that can depower them," I can't help but think too many writers get their ideas from comic books.

802017

What I was saying is that it isn't only the western comics with the bad artificial weakness either. I mean look at shonen comic. Goku, Naruto, Luffy, and Ichigo's weakness all depend on "timing out" as times decided by their authors. Expanding shonen Sailor Moon herself doesn't have any weakness just powerful enemies she eventually over comes. Again all based on timing chosen by the author. The only character I know of from Japanese comic books that has a consistent weakness Natsu from Fairy Tail who suffers from motion sickness.

What I was saying is that over powered characters with artificial weaknesses isn't a western problem. It happens just as much in Japanese comic books, and from characters in stories in may other mediums ad cultures.

803489

Now, I'm not really all that familiar with Naruto, One Piece or Bleach, but Dragonball I've read from cover to cover and I don't recall ever seeing this "timing out" issue you're speaking of.

Sailor Moon doesn't NEED weaknesses because she doesn't have much in the way of strengths. She's a teenage girl in a sailor outfit whose only real ability is using some magical items she happens to have on her. She's 100%, entirely vulnerable to, say, punches in the gut, or uppercuts to the chin, or, you know, any thing that would hurt a real girl.

Nothing I've seen so far is a true artificial weakness. For a weakness to be artificial it has to be something that seems almost completely arbitrary in context. Goku sometimes is weak because of either hunger or fatigue, yes... Athletes in the real world have that same issue. So that makes sense. If Goku was suddenly weak just because there happened to be a grayscale peacock in the area, that would be entirely artificial.

804627

Timing out I was referring to exhaustion. The point where Goku isn't summoning the the natural energy of the Ki of the world to help him in his endeavors. I would consider Goku's exhaustion on par with Super Man's kryptonite. The fact is at some points they can lift buildings like they are carrying laundry baskets and can make it from one city to another in under an hour with the power of flight. Goku only gets weak when the author decides to make him tired or when one of the Senzu beans runs out. Super Man get's weak if a particular story decides to introduce kryptonite. The are both equally artificial because both characters are both over powered and they need an excuse to de power.

In the end they are both doing unreal things to begin with so any thing that makes them weak is artificial just as their powers are in the first place.

805158

I'll give you a point that exhaustion can come off as a cop-out depending on how the writer does it.

But see, that's the thing--exhaustion or hunger or other such natural, organic "weaknesses" are things we the reader understand. I understand I can't run a 100-mile marathon without collapsing, sweating profusely and maybe having a heart attack. So I can understand how Goku might start to sweat after having a pitched battle for thirty minutes against an alien overlord.

I can never, ever understand why being near a glowing green rock would make Superman weak. It just doesn't make sense, no matter how much pseudoscience babble the writers apply to it (and I know they've tried).

With organic weaknesses, it's all about the execution. A truly artificial weakness is problematic just from the concept alone.

I'll add one more thing: Part of why "organic" weaknesses work is because they're rarely ever the deal-breaker in-and-of themselves. A character who is becoming exhausted could succumb, or could just as easily rally his remaining strength and overcome the obstacle. Kryptonite is an easy out that forces the plot in a specific direction.

In the end they are both doing unreal things to begin with so any thing that makes them weak is artificial just as their powers are in the first place.

I really don't agree with this. The minute we start saying "it's fantasy, anything goes," we've basically given terrible writers carte blanch and an easy defense from criticism.

Universes are not vacuums. They should have rules, or at least a "sense" to them that can be felt (if not explained) and violating that "sense" should make the writer feel bad and garner deserved criticism from readers. Otherwise, why should people complain about "The Mysterious Mare-do-Well" while praising "Lesson Zero" or "Too Many Pinkie Pies?" It's all fantasy anyway.

807867

Universes are not vacuums. They should have rules, or at least a "sense" to them that can be felt (if not explained) and violating that "sense" should make the writer feel bad and garner deserved criticism from readers.

Even if Kryptonite is an artificial weakness it is still a weakness, and when you get to the point where you can accept that a character can fly around the world in a half an hour, punch out a comet, shoot energy of ay form out of their body, to me anything goes. I am willing to suspend my logic to believe that this can happen. Why is a god like mortal suddenly growing tired more acceptable than another person loosing their abilities because of a certain object? They are both so over the top it is all unrealistic in the end. I am wiling to accept anything with the over the top and over powered if it is a good story in the end.

It was also the crack at Western comic books that is false. It is just not a western problem it could be aby creators problems.

I mean the original flawed, but over powered heros are from Greece, the West.

I have a story in mind. It stars a boy who grows up in a New York ghetto, and studies martial arts in order to deal with local gangs. Then he moves to Hong Kong where he grows to adulthood. As an adult, he begins touring the tournament circuit and becomes world-famous. He marries and has two children. There's one stand-out chapter where a man maliciously frightens his children, and the main character punishes him by crippling him with just one well-placed kick. The central character's martial arts prowess is so great that it lands him in a successful movie career. By the end of the story, he has even invented his own unique fighting style. Tragically, he dies after only making five movies, but his death is mourned world-wide.

Does this character sound overpowered or Mary Sue-ish?

808239
Sounds pretty Sue-OP man. You might want to humanize the character to emphasize his fallibility.

How about showing the limits to his physical prowess? You can have him seriously injure himself while he's working out. I think that will make him more relatable to the reader.

808649 I must admit I expected more of a response, but well, it's time to reveal the joke:

The "story idea" I outlined? That's the life story of Bruce Lee. I got a few details wrong (he was born in San Francisco, not New York) but the point remains.

Fiction comes from reality. When people forget this, fiction suffers. We write stories about magic and superpowers because they're natural extensions of what we realspace people could do. An athlete can train obsessively to run a 100-mile marathon, Goku trains obsessively to pick up buildings. We have gizmos that allow us to have long-range communications, Celestia has magical letters. These things work because they're fictionalized extensions of real things.

808011 And see, dude, the problem I have with your definition of "overpowered" is now you're basically saying having any skills or abilities AT ALL is overpowered. No. You can't just generalize a word until it means whatever you want it to. Not if you want to be taken seriously.

I mean hey, if you pull "it's fantasy, I can do whatever I want" in your own works, fine. Don't expect them to be any better than a comic book though.

810554
I got your joke, but I guess you didn't get mine. You can't learn about the exercise the good morning without learning, courtesy of Mr. Lee, why it's not a good exercise to get wrong. Hence my oddly specific suggestion.

Perhaps I should have included a wink.

810568 Oh *Facepalms* I fail my Bruce Lee knowledge test. I flunk. Celestia is gonna send me back to Bruce Lee Kindergarten.

810554 Your the one who was generalizing with your claim of Western Comic Books.

I mean hey, if you pull "it's fantasy, I can do whatever I want" in your own works, fine. Don't expect them to be any better than a comic book though.

Western comic books can produce crap. I'm not denying that. Japan produces just as much. Your dissing an entire medium of creativity while I like to take individual stories. Superman and Batman are both way over saturated, but I wouldn't trade them for anyone because it's the new twists on these old characters that make them interesting. Anything that Vertigo produces is story telling gold in my opinion. But I also like many titles from Japan. Fairy Tail, Full Metal Alchemist, Soul Eaters are all great stories. I liked Dragon Ball Z when I was a kid, but I realize now that Toriyama accidentally set the bar for bad tropes that appear in shonen manga in particular. I really wish that I could get into One Piece, but the art style just turns me off but that is okay. The story is still brilliant. In the end I like what I like, and it doesn't depend on where it comes from but the story itself.

And as for "it's fantasy, I can do whatever I want" I do agree with that. What I was saying before is that there is no difference between an artificial weakness (kryptonite) and a technically real weakness (exhaustion) when your that strong to begin with. Super Man flying, having heat beam eyes, super strength, and being weaned by kryptonite, magic, and being anywhere away from a yellow sun is zany. So is Goku a character who when powered up turns blonde and whose hair and hair gets progressively longer, and when under a full moon turns into a giant monkey.

Since I'm writing a story about a character who's immortal, can traverse dimensions, and destroy light-year wide swaths of the Universe in one blow, this thread popped up in my feed at an excellent time. Thankfully, I'm not writing an adventure fic. (My story is still awful and should be expunged from existence with balefire.) You guys and gals have been a lot of help, so thank you.

811194 I think it would really depend on the individual reader's preference, to be honest. I actually agree with NoGiantRobots1983's view that having a contrived Achilles Heel like kryptonite does make for a less interesting character, although I'd add a caveat that the context in which it's used is also important. Frank Miller's Batman beating the crap out of Superman because he has a kryptonite ring made for a good story, even if it didn't do anything for Superman's character. To me, a character like Deadpool, who's technically immortal and has bested a great many beings supposedly more powerful than he is, is far more interesting, because most of his problems arise as a direct result of him being batshit insane and pissing off the wrong people because of it. He probably doesn't qualify as "overpowered" in the context of this discussion, though.

That said, I can understand how the distinction between the Applied Phlebotinum weakness and the more 'organic' one might seem arbitrary, but crafting a good yarn is no science and people are bound to latch onto different things that both bother and please them.

In terms of Western comics being a blight on storytelling in general, I don't read enough of them to comment on the "99%" figure. But I've read enough of Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Bill Willingham to know that it would be foolhardy to discount their value to literature without first taking a peek.